AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Ken G on August 20, 2008, 06:18:55 AM
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As I see more original Southern guns I'm seeing more that look as though the metal parts were painted black at some point.
Any thoughts on this? Are my observations off base? I'm thinking somewhere at the end of their life someone thought a nice coat of black paint might freshing their look are protect the metal? maybe it was the in thing fad at some point.
Cheers,
Ken
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Just my theory, as I too have seen some guns with blacked iron mountings and even the barrel blacked.
I've seen and read of blacksmiths heating the part and quenching it in oil (linseed?) as a preservaitive for the iron to keep it from rusting. I guess the barrel could have been heated and rubbed down with oil. Perhaps southern gunsmiths as well as blacksmiths used this black finish we are seeing.
Short of scraping and anylizing, thats my best guess..................Lynn
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Just my theory, as I too have seen some guns with blacked iron mountings and even the barrel blacked.
I've seen and read of blacksmiths heating the part and quenching it in oil (linseed?) as a preservaitive for the iron to keep it from rusting. I guess the barrel could have been heated and rubbed down with oil. Perhaps southern gunsmiths as well as blacksmiths used this black finish we are seeing.
Short of scraping and anylizing, thats my best guess..................Lynn
They may have heated them to blue color then applied oil and slowly heated the part to burn off the oil. This will make a pretty dark durable finish.
Dan
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That could be. ??? I've experimented with a similar finish using motor oil. I have never been able to get something that would chip and scrap off like paint. What I've seen on the old guns will do that. Maybe using old formula linseed oil might do it along with lots of years of oxidations.
Ken
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I have seen contemporary rifles with the burned linseed treatment and that will give the flaking effect. That could be what you are seeing on the old rifles.
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I had an interesting discussion with Wallace about this a few years ago in Carlisle. We were looking at the argument-inspiring 'Tileston' rifle and there were traces of this black $#@* all over guard and there may have been some on some other of the ironware as well. He asked me what I thought it was and I said, 'black $#@*.' He offered quite an explanation regarding southern 'black rifles' and a mixture involving linseed oil, soot or blacking and something else. Maybe? Maybe. After 200+ years, a few traces could be applied preservative or darkening agent, could be paint, could be gunk. Ironmongers have historically used various mixtures of oil and blacking agents to preserve ironware exposed to weathering and iron on an iron-mounted rifle is exposed to weathering after all. These were also exposed to unfriendly eyes. Lots of questions.
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As regards Tennessee rifles and particularly those from upper Northeastern Tennessee school with makers such as the Beans,Bulls, Lawing, Wilhelm and others, I have long wondered whether these makers did their own forging of those iron mounts or whether they bought them from one or more local blacksmiths. There is a remarkable similarity between the mounts of several different makers. Granted, the mounts are very simple in design and construction which doesn't require a tremendous degree of skill especially the guards and butt pieces. Nevertheless I have seen a number of mounts such as the so called "Bean guards"which are extremely close to other makers of that school.
There is extant a group of pie safes from upper East Tennessee and Southwest Virginia which have highly ornamented tins which I have long understood to have been made in Southwest Virginia and sold to cabinet makers for installation in those safes. Now whether the same is true for the gun mounts is unclear but plausible and worthy of further study.
Tom Patton
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As this preserative blacking was explained to me, The iron/steel part is heated to a black heat, not to a black red heat. Maybe 700 degrees, to "open the pores in the metal" then oiled. Thats the way it was told to me and it does make a blackish finish on the iron.
As a side note, the blacksmith would heat and black his tong in this way because the tongs would regularly be holding the work for forging and then a dunk in the slacktub to cool the work. Supposed to retard rusting...........................Lynn
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I've only seen 1 original up close, think it was a restock and the furniture was a mix of brass and iron. the barrel was very black but didn't appear to be flacking. it was blacker than anything I have seen.
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This is likely not relavent but when I make springs, I harden by quenching in water with a bit of ATF on top then to temper, I soot the spring over a kerosene lamp (to prevent lead adhesion) and temper in lead. The springs come out a durable and most beautiful black and IIRC, if you hit it with a file, the black will flake off albeit under protest. Perhaps this is similar to what was done to old iron mounts.
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I have taken out some several sw virgina late rifle barrels that were painted black on the bottom, I assume the top of the barrel was also but it rubbed away after time. I have seen quite a few channels also either painted or rubbed with tar. Being from a blacksmith family who made rifles I can say with surety those old guy were so proud of their work they would have died before using someones elses forging on their guns. I think that is where you start to the see the long,up and over tangs, unusual entry thimbles, etc. I think that was a blacksmith thing. For sure they took more pains with the forging than the inletting! As was the practice here, lard was the lube of choice. I had an old squirrel rifle brougt in here that the bore was competely full of mutton lard , about the first four inches was hard as wood then it got softer. The bore was perfect, I know you hear about the salt in lard but the bore was not hurt. That old lard( the gun was put inside the wallboard in the 50's) was as black as sin. I wonder that the lard over time might not be inparting some of the black so often seen. Johnny
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Johnny,
If the black crud is original to these rifles as indicated by you seeing it under the barrel then I'd have to agree the crud originates from something very common in the Appalachia Mts. Like Hog Lard would be a common material for sure. Looks like some experimenting is order.
Thanks for all the comments!
Cheers,
Ken
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I cut the black of just one barrel I freshed out and built a gun around. Very black and did not chip or flake like paint though it was missing or worn thru in many places. Had a thickness to it and seemed bonded to the barrel. I can't remenber if I draw filed or sanded it off, or both. Didn't cut like paint.................Lynn
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One other way some are blck- some of the rifles I have seen at one time had Shelac on them the same as was used on furniture and most furniture now that had shellac in unaltered states is 99% black- I had an iron mounted Tenn Rice rifle that had shellac it was black as a Ace of spades and was alligatored in the finish- but sho did look good. I have a 1770,s Philadelphia Chippendale Arm chair and it is dry black and Alligatored finish, totally original. I have had rifles that had blck paint on them that had alligatored from hanging over old open fireplaces and dried out. I finished an iron mounted black walnut stock with flat black rustoleum primer after each coat I would burn it with a propane torchm I will tell you after 5-6 times thenrubbed with steel wool and oooo it look 200 years old. Just don't set it on fire- this replicates the open fireplace after 100 years.
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If Eric Kettenberg reads this- what is the guitar in your rifle picture all about? Do you play? I have a 1959 Gibson Les Plat Standard Sun Burst with an amazing 10 Plus curly maple top on it. Sho does ROCK! Pinyon
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Article in Rifle Magazine Nov-Dec 1996 Titled: "Old Time Blues" The author's grandfather, a West Tennessee sharecropper, used this method to touchup his shotgun. Use fresh strained bacon grease the kind with no sugar. Thoroughly clean and degrease the metal. Start with cooled metal. Lightly coat the metal with grease. Place the metal in an oven heated to 500 degrees. As soon as the grease begins to smoke immediately remove the metal from the oven. The surface of the metal has to reach between 325 and 350 degrees to burn the grease away. Repeat the process until desired color is reached. Wash with mild soap and apply oil. The finish is more black than blue with just a hint of a brownish tinge. Finish is tough.
Also, English SMLE rifles were "oil blackened" which yielded a durable dull black finish. Parts were heated to 740 degrees C, dipped in oil and burned off. This yielded a deposit of carbonaceous material on the surface.
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sounds alot like what you'd do to a cast iron pot/pan...before ya cook in it. that seasoning is tough and the more you oil it and use it the blacker and more durable it gets. ive read where they used hog lard as cutting lube for rifling machines. a friend of mine said it was customary to rub the whole gun down with the cleaning patches after they were used to clean the barrel. Nobody wants a shiney gun in indian territory...
And personal experience from my first build came afterward when i was cleaning my rifle...the nice brown that was on my barrel turned black when i wiped everything down with a bit of oil before storing.
highlander
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Aint bacon grease a first cousin to lard ? This color question about hill rifles has been something that I have considered for years. I feel comfortable to say that these guns did not leave the shop for the first time "coal black". My folks use concontions based on tar on late rifles for the color and some type of varnish or shellac for finish on late guns. After using that myself, a rifle used just one hunting season, handled with wool gloves,etc looks a lot whiter in just short order. The old finishes did not stand up any better than you think they would. I think when the guns left the shop they showed color and contrast and finish just like you would like today.( why make a super curly rifle and paint it black, no one would) Rub your rifle with bacon grease, hang it on the wall of a house heated with a coal stove ( warm morning) llok at it in six months to sixty years an it will look black. COAL BLACK. and smell good too. To make a mountain rifle black is sort of like restoring a fine old car and then trying to fade the new paint and fake some rust holes !!! I think if you want to know the color of a squirrel rifle after a year or so with its new owner it was closer to " in the white" than black. Just my guess Johnny
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Carper , i would say the same thing . I have seen several old guns that when you pull the barrel you can tell they where never browned or blued . Most still have the rough hammer marks, and some file marks around the barrels lugs . I do know my grand fathers rifles, he rubbed motor oil on them and that stuff was about 1/16 thick with build up and crud from the oil . The oil had turned brown, over the years .The same with his tools he had in his tool shed. All had been browned over the years from use and many coats of oil .
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Black paint is very common on antique rifles. Many at the Rock Island Arsenal from the "captured Indian Collection have the iron painted black intentionally as a preservative. The Aberdeen Proving Ground museum has one long rifle (a swivel breech flint) that was also painted black before they recieved it in 1995. I got a good look at it several weeks ago in the arms room. Amazing you can almost make out the name on top of one barrel, but they are not allowed to clean it enough to read it. That's our tax dollars hard at work!
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Hey Dan,
What took you so long to get here?
Randy Hedden
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My dad used to refer to "cooked" linseed oil as a great coating to protect metal. He pointed out he didn't mean "boiled" because that's the way linseed oil was prepared. The "cooked-on" finish was attained by heating the metal to "open it up," brushing or dipping it in linseed oil, giving it time to "set in," then baking it in an oven to "cook" it, leaving a black finish almost impervious to rust.
He'd learned this method in the South (I was born in Arkansas). He showed me a variation to season cast iron pans, a style I used to this day. Heat the pan, rub it with cooking oil, let it set to let the oil penetrate, then bake the pan or cook it on the top of the range until the oil "smokes off." Wipe clean and you're ready to cook!
Like Highlander 73, I have to wonder if this old method was not used by Southern gun builders, to essentially season the metal parts just as you would a cast iron pan. Cast iron pans, properly seasoned, are impervious to rust, a trait that would be valuable in a gun. And the black coating left by the seasoning operation is an attractive finish, easily renewed by a light coat of oil.
My dad used this method on hand tools he used a lot outside, including his saws. Rust was seldom a problem on these treated tools and if some did appear, you just sanded it down and reseasoned it and it was good for another couple of years.
Reading the other posts, I did remember dad saying that hog lard was the old standard, though that was not easily available in Connecticut, where we lived at the time. Dad was a painter, so linseed oil was cheap and available.
But I have used fatty bacon and gotten excellent results! In fact, I often get asked to re-season cast iron pans since this method works so well, even on the cheap imported stuff.
David L
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To Eric & Tom. Eric, I like your thinking on black $#@*. Tom, on furniture, brass parts, etc. I do know this little bit. Consider the common oblong cap-box found on many the Lemans. Some of us refer to it as the commode lid pattern.
I have seen that commode lid on no less than 6 late makers' products, running roughly the distance of the Appalachian Trail from Carlisle to Easton, PA. One of the boys, most likely Leman himself or the Henrys of Boulton, cranked out apparently several barrels full of these parts.
Incidentally, there is extant documentation at Jacobsburg Historical Site that confirms that Henry and Leman bought, sold and traded parts to each other in quantity. If I am not mistaken, this information is presented in the Museum of the Longrifle that you can see there. This first-class museum is the only one that I know of with the dedicated sole function of presenting the American longrifle to the general public. This is something you should see. JWHeckert
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Let Pinyone tell you what the black is on most of the Southern Rifles is. Being from the South I have seen a lot of it. At the time most of the Iron Mounted rifles were made, they were finished with orange pigmented shelac. Many pieces of furniture from the same period were finished in it- when new it gave the rifle a pretty reddish furniture look, After 150 years as with all of the furniture the Shelac turns flat black. They wee not waisting the Bacon grease on the rifles. They were not doing all of these scientific concoctions listed on here- things were simple. People are getting carried away with to many difficult solutions that were not used, this is the truth as how i see it- the Great Pinyone.
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While I do acknowledge the popularity of various shellacs from ca. 1800 onwards, and especially in relation to stringed musical instruments, I have a very hard time accepting it's use upon a rifle. I've experimented with a LOT of shellac mixtures - blonde, amber, brown, button, seed, waxed, dewaxed etc. While it is perfect for use as a grain sealer/filler under oil or oil varnishes, as a stand-alone coating it will go milky white, soft and sticky in the first rainstorm. Not very appealing. I can't see it lasting more than a year or two as a rifle finish - if that long - under constant use.
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While I do acknowledge the popularity of various shellacs from ca. 1800 onwards, and especially in relation to stringed musical instruments, I have a very hard time accepting it's use upon a rifle. I've experimented with a LOT of shellac mixtures - blonde, amber, brown, button, seed, waxed, dewaxed etc. While it is perfect for use as a grain sealer/filler under oil or oil varnishes, as a stand-alone coating it will go milky white, soft and sticky in the first rainstorm. Not very appealing. I can't see it lasting more than a year or two as a rifle finish - if that long - under constant use.
Eric , I second that
Jim
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I have a longrifle that spent many decades ?? in the rafters of a barn. The BRASS furniture has a coating of what appears to be black paint. I see from most of the previous posts that such a coating was mostly found on iron and steel furniture. I do not have a clue what this "paint" is composed of or why it was applyed. All I can say is it sure messes up the desired patina I like to see on aged metal. Instead of scrapeing this stuff off and ending up with a polished look, I have just opted to leave the paint as it is.
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Linseed oil alone, if boiled with lead, will go black over many years. Usually it's a somewhat translucent black, but very black nevertheless. If it accumulates dirt, dust and who knows what else in multiple layers it will be relatively opaque - 'paint.' I've seen enough old Winchesters covered in what looks like dried black coffee to know that frequently if a gun was rubbed down with oil, it ALL was oiled - barrel, buttplate, all of it. If someone wiped a gun down with leaded linseed oil and stuck it up in the rafters for a hundred years, between the lead and the oil (which in and of itself will darken quite a lot) and the heat and the dust, you'd end up with black paint.
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Remember paint at the time was generally linseed oil with pigment.
Painting the whole gun would be a way to preserve it and very well could have been done buy the owner rather than the maker.
According to the Madis' Winchester book at one time Winchester blued barrels by putting the part in heated potassium nitrate with some maganese dioxide(?) till they turned blue.
The parts were then coated with oil and heated till the oil smoked off to darken and make the color more durable.
Dan
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A nice little Moll 'factory rifle' turned up in a pawn shop in a neighboring town. It was painted black, too, over a walnut stock. Gun is in very good condition. The fellow that bought it promptly took the black off to reveal the original finish. It is still too bad that he did it, as it is now up on my wall. Should I get out the spray can of Rustoleum?
Black is apparently not the only color used. There is a superfine Bonawitz rifle that is painted red and other 'red' guns have been reported. One collector theorized that the red guns were preferred by the Indians. There is pictoral evidence that they did paint their guns (with designs at least). The epic painting of 'The Death of Wolfe' at Quebec illustrates this.
Dick
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I wonder if these guns were "blacked" or heavily linseed oiled to weatherproof them. I doubt these southern guns were ever dismounted for cleaning except maybe to oil the lock inards once in a while. Perhaps this black coating is to seal out the wet from getting between the barrel and the stock.
Just a thought................................Lynn
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In Foxfire 5 page 220, a quote attributed to Jim Moran (I have no idea who he is) states: "But the early ones were simple, and coated with a mixture of carbonblack and varnish or linseed oil so that you would et no glint off the wood-no reflection from it. ...The finish was often applied to the entire rifle."