AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: HighUintas on November 05, 2024, 07:12:23 PM
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I'm having the hardest time with my flintlock and getting some type of accuracy that you can call "groups" and I'm wondering if it is my barrel.
I've been on the edge of buying a new barrel this week and fitting it to my stock because I have a hunt the weekend before Thanksgiving. I'll be using my flintlock and it's a NR hunt in Illinois where I grew up... So the cost is high. I don't want to have to limit my range to 25 yards and not be able to fill my tags. I was hoping I'd be proficient to 75 yards by now, but it's not working out very well.
When I built my gun, I pinned the nose cap on using a common steel finish nail from the hardware store. I had the barrel in the stock while peening down the nail on the outside so that there was a solid backer on the other side of the nail. I didn't use all my strength peening it, but I wasn't necessarily gentle either. I'm wondering if I could have damaged the barrel near the muzzle doing that and that is what is causing my inaccuracy. It didn't leave any obvious marks on the barrel and I measured the barrel across the flats afterwards and it wasn't obviously caved in or anything like that. This is the only thing I can think of for why my accuracy is so bad, unless the barrel just happens to be one of those barrels that's destined to be a dud or I'm flinching wayyy more than I thought possible.
I'm fairly confident that there's no loading parameters that are causing it. So for the moment, let's focus on whether or not I likely damaged my barrel.
How easy is it to damage a barrel doing something like that?
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Was this barrel shooting ok before or is this the first you have shot it? What barrel, what load ? How many different loads have you tried? What shooting routine \method are you using to work up the loads? Lots of things to consider.
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What do you feel while pushing the patched ball down the barrel?
If you feel no change, then the barrel is likely just fine.
What are your ball/patch/powder combinations.
Is the muzzle smoothly crowned?
So, need to know, bore size, groove to groove measurement, then patch material, thickness, ball diameter and powder charges.
Too-loose combinations lose accuracy past 25 yards.
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The barrel was new as of early 2023. Colerain round groove 58. Shooting cast balls with all balls in a 1gr range. 0.570. all balls look great.
Patches - bull denim (0.020), 12oz (0.022/3), duck canvas (0.022/3)
Patches measured using Daryl's caliper method.
Lubed with TOW mink oil, saturated. Have also used hopes BP cleaner as range lube
No patch/lube combo seems to be better than another. They all require a short starter and are tough to start.
No patch damage on loading. No patch damage post shooting the last time I looked at a few.
The barrel was super rough on the lands as new. It's taken many rounds of grey 3m pad and 0000 steel wool tight on a jag to get it smoothed out. It used to be that the first load on a clean bore would go down ok, but tough. Subsequent loads would get worse and worse and eventually would have to be hammered down. Now, it is tough for the first 4-5" and then it goes down easily, nice and smooth until it gets to within a couple inches of the bottom and then gets rough, I think from fouling ring. Loading on a clean barrel the breech portion is smooth.
The lock is a chambers late ketland and seems plenty fast. I use 2f schuetzen for main charge. I've tried everything from 65-140gr and there's nothing that seems to produce a consistent group.
Picture is last time out at 50 yards. All load parameters the same except charge weight. Lower left target has 2 extra shots (high) from different patches. I am fairly certain that I'm not flinching enough to cause that much inaccuracy at 50.
(https://i.ibb.co/rxbzYXx/PXL-20241103-214243791.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tqZvg1q)
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It would be best if I could get someone to shoot it that can shoot a flintlock well so I can see if it's me or the barrel, but I haven't had luck with that.
I'll be going out again this Friday for more practice/testing after coning the muzzle Thursday night. I'm tired of a sore hand starting the balls and I figure the accuracy can't get much worse.
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In my opinion you did not do any damage to your barrel by riveting on that muzzle cap. I would try to smooth out the bore and then go back to finding a load combination that will give better accuracy. ;)
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Thanks. I sure hope not! I'm really hoping that I'm just much worse at shooting a flintlock with open sights than I think I am ;)
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Puzzling for sure. I cannot come up with a solution to the "problem".
It could be shooter error with follow-through, however I found shooting a flinter off the bench
made following through quite easy in comparison to shooting standing with one.
What sort of a rest are you using?
A loose rocking adjustable rest, rigid rest and bags or?
Sturdy table/bench or rocking one?
Gun held in hands or rested directly on a bag, or hard surface?
Resting the rifle where as in, near muzzle, at the entry pipe(my preferred location), near the lock, or?
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Puzzling for sure. I cannot come up with a solution to the "problem".
It could be shooter error with follow-through, however I found shooting a flinter off the bench
made following through quite easy in comparison to shooting standing with one.
What sort of a rest are you using?
A loose rocking adjustable rest, rigid rest and bags or?
Sturdy table/bench or rocking one?
Gun held in hands or rested directly on a bag, or hard surface?
Resting the rifle where as in, near muzzle, at the entry pipe(my preferred location), near the lock, or?
I shoot off a solid bench at the range, using sand bags for front and rear rest. I rest the front just forward of the entry pipe, so between the entry pipe and middle pipe.
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I’m not the greatest shot in the world, but for encouragement, a Colerain 50 round groove was the most accurate barrel I have owned. It outshot a Getz 50 and a Rayl 40 that I have. Both good barrels, but it was a little bit better. I know several other Colerains that shoot great. It’s possible you have something unusual. But that would be more of a rarity.
You might try to open up the pin holes in the barrel lugs horizontally slightly to allow for any pressure differential being applied from changes in the stock moisture, or any twist is present. Not likely to make a huge difference in most cases, but might if something is in a noticeable bind and messing with barrel harmonics. See if one or more barrel pins are more difficult to tap out, or appear bent. If so, focus some extra efforts there.
I’ve never done lead lapping, but it can also sometimes cure a few ills - from what I’ve read
(https://i.ibb.co/vZCkYRY/C836-A1-F2-E7-CB-4-B11-B45-C-857-B2-A66-BD09.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qr7Mdtd)
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I’m not the greatest shot in the world, but for encouragement, a Colerain 50 round groove was the most accurate barrel I have owned. It outshot a Getz 50 and a Rayl 40 that I have. Both good barrels, but it was a little bit better. I know several other Colerains that shoot great. It’s possible you have something unusual. But that would be more of a rarity.
You might try to open up the pin holes in the barrel lugs horizontally slightly to allow for any pressure differential being applied from changes in the stock moisture, or any twist is present. Not likely to make a huge difference in most cases, but might if something is in a noticeable bind and messing with barrel harmonics. See if one or more barrel pins are more difficult to tap out, or appear bent. If so, focus some extra efforts there.
I’ve never done lead lapping, but it can also sometimes cure a few ills - from what I’ve read
(https://i.ibb.co/vZCkYRY/C836-A1-F2-E7-CB-4-B11-B45-C-857-B2-A66-BD09.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qr7Mdtd)
Thanks for that insight. I built this gun from a plank, so it is possible that there's something in the stocking that is causing the issues.
I was actually going over this last night, trying to find a red flag.
It has keys, not pins. I checked the key slots with barrel installed and I didn't see any part of the barrels under lug hoops protruding into the key slots. However, I was going to open the underlug hoops just a tad more and also remove a touch more wood from the underlug inlet fore and aft just to be sure I have nothing binding. The keys do not fit overly tight... Just snug.
I checked the lock bolt clearance to ensure the barrel plug bolster was not recoiling onto the lock bolt. It has plenty of clearance.
The last part, which I'm not entirely sure how to be sure about (other than epoxy bedding the breech) is the long barrel tang and it's 2 screws. It is a standard breech (not hooked). The inletting of the breech is good. The last time I removed wood I checked the fit with soot and I had nice even contact all around the breech and back of plug bolster. However.... I'm wondering if when I tighten down the tang screws if it could be pushing the barrel breech forward enough to where the tang/screws would be acting as a recoil surface just as much as the breech.
Any ideas on how to check that thoroughly?
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I recently had a barrel that refused to group well. I tried a felt wad under a thinner patch and ball and it did wonders. Groups tight and loads easily without a ball starter.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZWB81gC/E07-DF9-E8-FC87-4995-8-DC3-F4186-E3481-EA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pJfzrKp)
50 yards rested.
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I recently had a barrel that refused to group well. I tried a felt wad under a thinner patch and ball and it did wonders. Groups tight and loads easily without a ball starter.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZWB81gC/E07-DF9-E8-FC87-4995-8-DC3-F4186-E3481-EA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pJfzrKp)
50 yards rested.
I have seen recommendations for that and thought I'd try it. I'd really like to know why that works.
What kind of felt and are they lubed? I have some 1/8" wool felt sheets at home but would have to scissor cut them all. You think that would work with some type of lube on them?
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I used un lubed felt wads I bought at Track OTW. I lubed the patches with bear oil.
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Any creaking or cracking if you squeeze the
barrel against the forend? Recent big environmental changes
? If all else fails, bed the barrel with epoxy. I've been amazed a number of times.
Roger B.
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Any creaking or cracking if you squeeze the
barrel against the forend? Recent big environmental changes
? If all else fails, bed the barrel with epoxy. I've been amazed a number of times.
Roger B.
Nothing noticeable. I think the foreend is pretty well bedded and snug. It's just the breech after tightening the tang bolts I'm not sure of. I'll try to take a couple measurements tonight to see if I can make a call on that.
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A few things I'll try this Friday (after coning) are-
- Use a rest right behind muzzle
- Try a patch or wad over powder
- try a different powder ... I'm pretty sure I have 1.5 OE that good ole Herb gave me as well as some 2f OE
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What is the size of your touch hole? The larger the hole the wider the fluctuations in pressure which affects accuracy.
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What is the size of your touch hole? The larger the hole the wider the fluctuations in pressure which affects accuracy.
Just a hair over 1/16"
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Any creaking or cracking if you squeeze the
barrel against the forend? Recent big environmental changes
? If all else fails, bed the barrel with epoxy. I've been amazed a number of times.
Roger B.
Nothing noticeable. I think the foreend is pretty well bedded and snug. It's just the breech after tightening the tang bolts I'm not sure of. I'll try to take a couple measurements tonight to see if I can make a call on that.
Measured the muzzle flat distance to cap before and after tightening the tang screws. No difference. So I believe that the bedding/breech/tang area is not causing any problems. However, I would maybe still try bedding it with epoxy as a last option before replacing the barrel.
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One thing I have found that helps during sight-in when you need to hold a consistent center is using paper plates with a cross taped on them with blue masking tape. This gives you a visual of whether your sights are up/down-right or left of center when the rifle fires. That is harder to do with a black round bullseye. After you get the group you want, you can then adjust the sights to center the group. You can also make notes on the back of the plate for each load and range tested to evaluate them later. This is helpful if you use different loads at different ranges for target shooting, and hunting. Paper plates are also about the size of the vital area of a deer, and cheap.
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I just looked over this thread and got to admit I did not read everything.
How good can you shoot a different rifle? I assume you got more than one, right? If not, something wrong with you....buy some more.
Is it you or the rifle? I am not as good as I once was. Sounds like a good country song.....
Wads can make a huge difference. Wool or fiber. I have a LRML that I use both a felt and fiber wad. If not, my accuracy is not good.
fleener
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I never assume that the barrel is the problem. I've had people ask me to shoot their rifles , so I can tell them what has to be done in order to make it shoot better. Not once have I found one that the barrel or the rifle in anyway was a problem. They have all grouped well.
The problem always comes down to not enough practice shooting open iron sights. Lousy bench technique. Even a hard trigger can be shot well off a bench or cross sticks.
Taking a three-shot group, and then going to another three-shot group and then another and another is not a good test of a rifle or of a load.
I do not think you are suddenly going to come up with a load that will magically shrink your group size with this method. By the time you get to the 120- grain load the recoil will definitely have you flinching.
The targets that you posted shot at fifty yards are the same targets that we are shooting this month for the online match. If you are aiming at a deer in the proper place at 50 yards, every one of those shots will kill it.
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Possibly maybe too much powder, I had it where it does groups like this, but when I backed down the powder charge it started grouping better.
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A few things I'll try this Friday (after coning) are-
- Use a rest right behind muzzle
- Try a patch or wad over powder
- try a different powder ... I'm pretty sure I have 1.5 OE that good ole Herb gave me as well as some 2f OE
I would not cone the barrel just yet. Changing too many things at the same time will lead to "chasing your tail" trying to get the rifle to shoot accurately.
If your shooting technique is good, then I would concentrate on load development and trigger control for starters. ;)
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A few things I'll try this Friday (after coning) are-
- Use a rest right behind muzzle
- Try a patch or wad over powder
- try a different powder ... I'm pretty sure I have 1.5 OE that good ole Herb gave me as well as some 2f OE
I would encourage you to only change one variable at a time. Also to smooth the crown some more and NOT cone the muzzle.
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Hi guys, I haven't been on in a few days and missed some of your comments. However, I'm sort of glad I did because I made a lot of progress today when I went shooting.
I didn't see the advices to not cone the muzzle until today... I received my joe Wood coming tool a few days ago and went ahead and did that.
I went and shot today and it seems to help quite a bit. I must have had a very tight muzzle. There's a reference line on the coning tool that measures an exact 0.580. I slipped the tool into the bore and noted where it stopped on the tool ... Pretty far away from that line. I measured roughly where the tool stopped on the bore and it measured 0.577 or less.
Getting the ball started with the coned muzzle is much easier. I still have to use my short starter because the load is so tight but it's very easy get it started and don't have to pound on it endlessly anymore.
Now when pushing the ball down the rest of the way with my rod (~4 inches down from muzzle and further) it remains much tighter down to the bottom where as before coning it, it would be very easy and almost loose feeling going down passed 4" from muzzle.
I think it's possible that the muzzle was sizing/squeezing the ball down too much for the size of the bore down lower and maybe I wasn't getting a good seal. That "loose feeling " had gotten progressively looser feeling the more I had tried to smooth the bore with grey 3m pads over the last year. Maybe I had actually removed a good bit of metal in the mid/lower bore relative to the muzzle! I'm not sure but that is my hypothesis because:
Last year, it was hard to get the ball down start to finish. Then I went through the bore with 3m pads many times trying to make sure I didn't hit the muzzle much. The patches I'd recovered early on looked fine.
After that smoothing, and last time I shot and posted targets in the beginning of this thread, it was still extremely hard the first 4" and then almost loose feeling. I wasn't able to get any of these patches so I can't verify if there was any issues with sealing the bore.
After coning, it's now really snug the first 4" and remains snug the rest of the way.
And my groups were wayyy better today than last time!
I did change a couple of other things, but I don't think they made the difference that I saw today.
I shot at a different range today and it was not covered so I put sight hoods on. I also measured out about 25 charges with a scale before going to remove the variable of my powder measure technique (maybe it's not good technique?).
Other than those two items everything was pretty much the same.
First target target if 70gr I was feeling a bit jumpy and had a couple of accidental trigger pulls. Orange dot is 1.5". I think this load is probably better than that... I think I struggled to see the dot a bit at first.
(https://i.ibb.co/C5q8mV5/PXL-20241109-003437401.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0jk2mYj)
This target I was seeing if there was much difference when swabbing the bore between each shot. Same load. And.... A few young kids came to ask my about my "cannon". They were blown away and I let them shoot a couple times. They're the high shots.
(https://i.ibb.co/BqYjndk/PXL-20241109-003502906.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MMJpBWd)
This target I decided to test it 100gr 2f OE I had leftover from when I had a 45-90 1886. I sold that gun:/ aimed at lower Orange dot.
(https://i.ibb.co/6Fhb2RB/PXL-20241109-003447776.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rNZkjt)
This target is a full 120gr measure, but all weighed with my scale. An actual 126gr 2f schuetzen by weight.
(https://i.ibb.co/hW5F3Fk/PXL-20241109-003451984.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HzvT5T0)
This is the 126gr schuetzen load at 105 yards! About a 5" group. There's an errant shot not on the target ... I think it might be one of those high holes.
(https://i.ibb.co/3MJhB2h/PXL-20241108-223004968.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rcWy4Yy)
Much better today and I'm feeling much better about my hunting trip.
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Looks like you found a solution. 100 O/E, or 126gr. Schutzen seems to be working for you much better.
I found with the Schutzen, I had to increase my powder charge for plinking out to 50yards with my .69, I had to increase the charge from
85gr. 2F GOEX, to 110gr. 2F Schutzen. This gave me close to the same group size and point of impact as the much smaller, previous charge of GOEX.
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I forgot to show my patches. I had a really hard time finding many. That range is so littered with others' trash it makes it hard to spot patches amongst it. I don't see any signs of tears or gas leaking, but it's hard to tell because of the dark denim color. The darker side was against the powder and bore.
I forgot to mention that I tried to involve my non trigger hand in supporting the butt much less this time also. I found that when I flinch a little, that left hand under the butt really makes the muzzle move a lot. So I tried to only support the butt for elevation and minimized the amount of grip I put on the toe.
(https://i.ibb.co/xJgpfNW/PXL-20241109-003843890.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sy106Zn)
(https://i.ibb.co/d5DZw4g/PXL-20241109-003754847.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JsHZwjQ)
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The dark side shows the land stress I would expect, but they all look good and reusable, which I personally do with 'recovered' patches.
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I actually think it was a good idea to cone the muzzle. A lot of in-accuracy is caused by the patches being damaged at the muzzle and the ball also being damaged by pounding through a tight muzzle. I coned the muzzle of my recently finished.50 cal. And the groups were basically the same, except I no longer got the occasional flier due to a cut patch. Also made the gun much easier to load.
I think you have it figured out.
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Properly crowned as I call it, there is zero damage to patches, even with .0235" patches and a bore sized ball.
I use the mallet on the end of my right forearm to smack the short starter. One smack, in it goes.
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I'm glad your rifle is shooting better for you but honestly I don't see the kind of accuracy that would please me. So I wouldn't quit working on it yet.
Don't underestimate the power of a flinch to ruin a good group at 50 yards. There is a good chance you have at least a small flinch so I would keep working on doing away with it completely. When I first went to a flintlock I didn't think I had a flinch at all, couldn't see it from where I was. But my accuracy was terrible. I determined it was a flinch and really worked on curing it. It took awhile but I finally beat it and my accuracy woes were gone.
It wouldn't hurt to extend the slots in the barrel tabs. Certain conditions can really move the barrel and pins a surprising amount. I had been shooting one of my rifles a few years with no problem, then the night before deer opener I discovered the front tab was broken from pin movement and the pin was bent. I had to do some emergency repair to fix it and also extended the slot farther. I don't think a barrel will shoot it's best with a bind.
The same goes for the fit of a barrel to the stock. I can't stand to feel movement between the bottom of the barrel and stock. If I squeeze the two together and feel any movement then I do a stress free bedding with acra gel to fit the two together better.
So far doing things this way has cured a lot of my accuracy problems..
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1st shoot from a steady solid bench , (take the you out of your shooting)and a steady seat
2nd use a padded support under the sight area balance point,
3rd only change one small thing at a time ( lube, patch, ball size, grns of powder /type of powder )
make sure it's repeatable
don't move sights till you have a good load (make sure sights are not loose)
(https://i.ibb.co/zGtp7Vd/DSC03040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jgjmWkt)
(https://i.ibb.co/XSTfp4k/DSC03384.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BqRHjPK)
(https://i.ibb.co/6nkQsCw/1stgetzgroup.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dWRZKYM)
all groups 50 yrds from bench
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Having read all the postings I can say everything has been covered. I would keep increasing patch thickness until accuracy improves or you fear it can't be loaded. If patch thickness helps but seems unreasonable, I would then try .575 balls or bore reaming. I am fearful of fooling around with the bore as that is the most critical part of the barrel. I also feel timid about advising because everyone here knows what I know.
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.58 accuracy at 50yards, using .562" balls and 100gr. of 2F GOEX powder.
I used .022" denim patching. The rifle only had .008" deep rifling and was a SxS Kodiak rifle.
HighUintas, from your last target posts, it looks like you have it figured out quite well.
(https://i.ibb.co/DthhdgB/100-gr-load.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xDWWZ8n)
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You still may want to hook up with someone who can shoot flintlocks well just to give you another "eye" on it. I shoot with a friend who has trouble grouping but he admits his vision is not great and mine is very good after cataract surgery. We haven't had the time to shoot together so I can shoot his rifle but I think his vision is the problem, not the rifle.
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I've started shooting my new Kibler .40 SMR off a bench, 50 yds. It's getting there. I think the lower shot was a cold, clean barrel. I definately need a thicker patch, these were tore up when retrieved.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54289147889_3952b33e2f_z.jpg)
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In my honest opinion, if a patch is not reusable at least once more, it is not a strong enough or thick enough material.
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One thing I look for is the pattern on the muzzle after the first shot.If it's irregular a recrown happens then and there.I took a cordless drill with me to the range with an appropriate crowning ball which is a ball with file capabilities and then a polish using the crowning ball and 1200 grit polishing cloth.There SHOULD be a star pattern IF the crown is right
Bob Roller.
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I agree Bob, but only when shooting grease groove bullets.