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General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: JH Ehlers on December 06, 2024, 12:09:32 AM

Title: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 06, 2024, 12:09:32 AM
Did a trial run making ramrod pipes on the lathe today. Will make them for a tapering ramrod with the largest being about 3/8" ID. Has anyone done this before? It came out thin and pretty good I think. I will do some filing on the bottom and probably mortise a tab onto it and hard solder.
Started with 1/2" mild steel round bar. The finish on there was achieved with a hss lathe graver.
(https://i.ibb.co/1fXrMWj/20241205-135826.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3yFpvZQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/m8n7W11/20241205-135719.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k1LFCkk)

(https://i.ibb.co/W5CNV1w/20241205-135657.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GpmfHjL)

(https://i.ibb.co/7YZTn1h/20241205-132202.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JBGbvsZ)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: 45-110 on December 06, 2024, 12:15:24 AM
Very nice, a lathe sure does come in handy. I turned a steel set last week for a build. What do you mean by a "hss lathe engraver" did you grind a cutting form tool for the profile?
kw
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 06, 2024, 12:23:52 AM
The bulk, that is not much was removed with standard hss cutting tools and the finished profile done by hand on the rest in the picture. The graver is like used by watchmakers on their lathes, just a 45 degree angle so a diamond shaped flat. Works very well. Also made a new screw for the cock.
(https://i.ibb.co/zVG7VS6/17334337860842133530999223548604.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F4g04BH)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: HSmithTX on December 06, 2024, 01:38:38 AM
I think they look great.  I also think the guy inletting them might cuss the guy that made them a bit....... LOL.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: coopersdad on December 06, 2024, 03:23:53 AM
Very nice work!  Would you mind showing some photos of your gravers, and how they are ground? Thanks!
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: James Rogers on December 06, 2024, 03:32:17 AM
Has anyone done this before? It came out thin and pretty good I think


Looks great! I have acquired the stock to turn a very similar tapered set.  I just need to make my forming tool.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 06, 2024, 04:43:32 AM
The gravers are very easy to grind no complex angles or heels, but have to be precise and sharp. I use the flat side of the lindsay template on diamond stones to 2000 grit.
(https://i.ibb.co/jDpg2vg/17334490990087315911863751845184.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tDd8tM8)

(https://i.ibb.co/9ZyNHdy/17334491362407042996939562169947.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fDr2dTr)
Coopersdad, if you understand how Lindsay's templates work you should know what's going on there. There's probably videos on YouTube about watchmakers turning. I can draw you a picture as well if you want.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 06, 2024, 04:50:55 AM
James I don't have a forming tool I just going to freehand it. I have to make 3 and an entry pipe. A collet setup in the lathe is almost a must but could probably be done in a chuck, watch your knuckles. You should do them freehand , would take me forever to make a forming tool.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: coopersdad on December 06, 2024, 05:19:30 AM
Thanks, that is simple.  I use the Lindsay templates, so I just need to cobble up a rest for my lathe and try this. 
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 06, 2024, 04:03:05 PM
I think these look fantastic.  Here's an interesting fact about a number of these pipes I've studied...  They weren't turned.  The rings etc. are not parallel and progressively lean to more of an angle as you approach each end from the center.  I've seen this on a Cookson, a Thuraine, a Dolep and this Shaw.  In fact, I don't think I've seen an example where the rings were perpendicular to the centerline.  This is actually pretty dramatic if you look for it and there is absolutely no way it is by accident.

Regardless, these look absolutely great.  I just had to mention these interesting details.

Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 06, 2024, 04:06:44 PM
Here is a link to a Cookson gun I once owned and it had pipes with a super pronounced flare.  Most I've seen are not this dramatic.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=515052195336473&set=a.513703645471328
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: flatsguide on December 06, 2024, 04:54:10 PM
Wow! Beautiful work…you sure have the eye.
Jim, do you have any more photos of the Cookson gun, like the top of the buttplate tang and top of the bbl showing the breech plug, tang and decorative elements? The decoration on top of the bbl, is that inlayed like the work done on a Japanese tsuba or carved directly from the bbl steel itself.
Richard
No need to post more photos of the Cookson gun, I found them here…
https://www.jimkibler.net/john-cookson-fowling.html
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: James Rogers on December 06, 2024, 05:06:27 PM
I think these look fantastic.  Here's an interesting fact about a number of these pipes I've studied...  They weren't turned.  The rings etc. are not parallel and progressively lean to more of an angle as you approach each end from the center.  I've seen this on a Cookson, a Thuraine, a Dolep and this Shaw.  In fact, I don't think I've seen an example where the rings were perpendicular to the centerline.  This is actually pretty dramatic if you look for it and there is absolutely no way it is by accident.

Regardless, these look absolutely great.  I just had to mention these interesting details.

I remember years ago you pointing that out on the little Dolep pipes. I have some auction catalogs of a couple of early pieces where that characteristic is obvious even in the pictures.  It was interesting to see what they started with when seeing those ledges after you removed the pipes from the gun.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: James Rogers on December 06, 2024, 06:02:13 PM
Cookson
(https://i.ibb.co/4VCnzk9/20241206-100100.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XC6r1HN)

(https://i.ibb.co/Y0PHvZG/20241206-100120.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5KGbqFV)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: James Rogers on December 06, 2024, 06:16:48 PM
Shaw

(https://i.ibb.co/8bsxxQK/20241206-101604.jpg) (https://ibb.co/42tSS0m)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 06, 2024, 06:17:27 PM
Jim I remember that you mentioned that when looking at the Shaw gun. I envy all you guys who have the opportunity to look at all those original guns. I have a lot of admiration for the craftsmen of past times, but that is just too much work unless someone is paying me to do it or if I win big in the lotto.
(https://i.ibb.co/Mc17VR3/DSCN0757-M-Silver-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dPpD2Qz)
Here is that gun made by Mark Silver, I am wondering how he made these pipes.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: James Rogers on December 06, 2024, 06:39:54 PM
A few more originals
(https://i.ibb.co/WkLGVGY/20241206-102222.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/d5ZqtBh/20241206-102310.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DRdyY4q)

(https://i.ibb.co/W3d3zjW/20241206-102652.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GJ1JMNv)

(https://i.ibb.co/GHYgwtH/20241206-103719.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 06, 2024, 06:54:22 PM
Thank you James, where do you find your pictures? Have you ever looked through the Livrustkammaren collection on wikkimedia commons?
Just tried to upload a picture from there but says file too big, some good study material there.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: James Rogers on December 06, 2024, 07:10:46 PM
Mr. Ehlers,
Some pictures I have taken while examining guns in hand and some I have taken as screen shots from online auctions, antique arms websites, friends who have had guns in hand and took pictures, etc.
Many of these I keep on my phone for quick reference but not all. I am quite the nerd for 1680-1740 English and Continental guns. My original interest in that time frame was that guns in America up until the revolution were primarily made elsewhere but as I began to study the pattern books and original pieces the art and design began to speak to me. Jim Kibler ( when he was a mere sprig in age but wiser than most twice his age) was a big part in showing me many of the subtle wonders of these magnificent guns.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: whetrock on December 06, 2024, 07:54:49 PM
J.H., I am really enjoying seeing your work and your photos. Very helpful.

Regarding the pipes made by Mark Silver, I hope someone with more knowledge than I have will comment. I think the beads on Mark's pipe are punched. Same with the smaller detail that looks like a twist string. That's based on looking at the image at about 5x magnification.
It is also possible to swage in beads with a wheeled tool--some version of a little wheeled tool called a milgrain/millgrain wheel/tool. (Just found some online. It's a little wheel for making a "beaded" detail. Some of them just swage a series of fine lines, but I've also seen one that swages a beaded edge like this. They are basically a very small version of the tool used in the kitchen for "swaging" in a decorative crust on the edge of a pie.

Also, for anyone interested, there is a cool video of Youtube craftsman Uri Tuchman showing a simple setup for pattern copying when using a small lathe and graver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYoJetH0q0g
As you can see, the image in the main page shows a small but complex lathe bed. But later in the video he switches to a flat bed and completely manual tool holder. His setup for the addition of the copying attachment is shown from 14:43. (That section also includes him switching to an electric motor, which may not seem relevant, but starting the video from 14:43 gives you a good look at his flat bed and tool holder, which then helps explain what he is doing afterward with the pattern copying setup.)
His tool holder is quite decorative, but of course it's not necessary that a tool holder be so fancy. Note the adjustable spacer set into the bottom of the tool holder. The spacer (or whatever it should be called) then rides against the pattern.
 

Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 06, 2024, 10:30:20 PM
Wow! Beautiful work…you sure have the eye.
Jim, do you have any more photos of the Cookson gun, like the top of the buttplate tang and top of the bbl showing the breech plug, tang and decorative elements? The decoration on top of the bbl, is that inlayed like the work done on a Japanese tsuba or carved directly from the bbl steel itself.
Richard
No need to post more photos of the Cookson gun, I found them here…
https://www.jimkibler.net/john-cookson-fowling.html

https://www.jimkibler.net/john-cookson-fowling.html

This is all just sculpting.  No inlay work.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 06, 2024, 10:33:51 PM
It's interesting in examining these sorts of pipes that they were just formed from relatively thick material, wrapped around a mandrel and then butt brazed.  The material was thick enough to all filing to shape as well as having enough material for a tab.  I'll see if I can't show an example of this.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: whetrock on December 07, 2024, 12:19:11 AM
So, Jim, I understand what you are saying about the material being wrapped and brazed. From that point, I'm not sure I understand the process you are describing.
You mention them being filed to shape. Do you think these were turned on a lathe, or were hand filed? Were the tabs added on, by brazing or soldering, or were they filed in place. If these things were turned, it's hard to imagine there being enough material on the back side to still file out a tab.

I hope my questions are clear. I also hope it doesn't sound like I'm arguing about how they were made. I have zero opinion about it. I'm just eager to learn. (And glad for a few minutes coffee break from work while I type these questions!)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: whetrock on December 07, 2024, 09:34:25 PM
PS: I finally found the name of the little wheeled tool. I edited my post above. I think it's called a milgrain/millgrain wheel/tool/beading tool.
This link should show one that's currently for sale on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/296752385209?chn=ps&var=594567628075&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1JVXi4VxzSr6kYLwil8mV9Q16&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=594567628075_296752385209&targetid=4580909052765417&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=603247545&mkgroupid=1236951576251627&rlsatarget=pla-4580909052765417&abcId=9316119&merchantid=51291&msclkid=b0a689d8b71814cb261eee8c2296cca2

Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 07, 2024, 09:58:46 PM
Whetrock, you can buy a copy tool for a lathe its called the Turnado, I think its made in Australia but i might be wrong.
Jim I would like to see a pipe like that out of the stock. I am kind of tempted to try and make them that way, maybe the next gun but I am not sure people that buy guns would appreciate all that work as much as I would. If you would want to make it that way you would have to have sharp new high quality files and a step by step filing plan. I am wondering how much the tab is in the way when filing as well.
Jim's Shaw gun has really well done ramrod pipes if you give them a close look its evident how hard it will be.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 07, 2024, 10:05:23 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/3NFN7nb/20240610-080009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4TST7HL)

(https://i.ibb.co/XJCVxc8/20240610-075921.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ThgrM9L)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: whetrock on December 07, 2024, 10:45:52 PM

Thanks for the link.

I looked at Mark Silver's pipes under magnification, and it looks to me like the "beads" are punched. The intersection of the pipe to the tab is also interesting. Same for some of the antiques in the other images.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 08, 2024, 06:43:49 PM
I think I have some waxes pulled from the Cookson, ramrod pipes from that Dolep pistol I have and  I'll try to remove a pipe from the Shaw. 

Basically the tab is just filed from the original blank rolled tube.  The beads etc are filed from the bottom area to be inlet to some degree.

I've bee pretty sick the last few days, but will get things as I feel better.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 08, 2024, 07:23:56 PM
Thank you Jim, size, shape of the tab, thickness of the pipe at the tab etc etc, all those details matter to me. Or else I have to think up my own way of doing it.
Get well soon.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: helwood on December 09, 2024, 03:51:50 AM
Greetings,
Back in '22 I used a die and force to press my pipes for my Dolep inspired Brace.  It took awhile to figure out but it was a fun challenge.       Hank
(https://i.ibb.co/KqNWmj0/20221222-135855.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qs0pxMy)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 09, 2024, 04:12:02 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/y5Sv03w/IMG-0639.jpg) (https://ibb.co/82cvMhW)

(https://i.ibb.co/1mYYP5J/IMG-0640.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d5ssVqJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/bKhfnzX/IMG-0641.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RDn5Wzc)

(https://i.ibb.co/n3JWTPb/IMG-0642.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LQ7GMN8)

(https://i.ibb.co/QDdVj3S/IMG-0643.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dmgvJwC)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 09, 2024, 04:21:17 PM
So, I've stashed the Dolep pipes somewhere and can't find them at the moment, but have some others to show. 

The first one shown above is from the Shaw gun.  It's interesting that it was rolled from sheet that wasn't of sufficient thickness to for the tab, so they just cut a mortice to accept another piece of material and brazed it in place.  If you look carefully you can see the joint.  The other slot seen is just to clear the underlug that happens to intersect the pipe mortice in the wood.  Note that the bulbous bands are filed off squarely where the pipe is inlet.

The second example is a wax pulled from the Cookson gun.  It can't be seen clearly, but I do recall the bands were so high that really thick material was required.  With this the case the tab was just filed from the material.  I think the original tube was just a brazed butt joint.  Note that in this case the bands aren't filed off in a square fasion but beveled off in the area to be inlet.

The final pipe is from a very nice Italian carbine.  I think it's shown on my website.  It's pretty similar to the Shaw.  Interestingly enough it doesn't show much flair to the bands.  They were obviously hand filed, but I don't think there was an attempt to make a flare.  Turning would work great for something like this. 

I need to look more for the Dolep pipes.

Jim
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 09, 2024, 04:39:14 PM
Greetings,
Back in '22 I used a die and force to press my pipes for my Dolep inspired Brace.  It took awhile to figure out but it was a fun challenge.       Hank
(https://i.ibb.co/KqNWmj0/20221222-135855.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qs0pxMy)

Those look like they turned out well.  I don't think that any higher end guns had pipes made this way though...  Trade guns yes.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 09, 2024, 06:47:14 PM
Interesting, I did not expect to see them filed square off like that, do they butt against the stock or are the ring portions inlet as well a little bit.
Thank you Jim this helps a lot. If I make them like this I will probably skip the wrap around mandrel step and make them from solid stock, not much is needed for a tab.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 09, 2024, 06:50:45 PM
Interesting, I did not expect to see them filed square off like that, do they butt against the stock or are the ring portions inlet as well a little bit.
Thank you Jim this helps a lot. If I make them like this I will probably skip the wrap around mandrel step and make them from solid stock, not much is needed for a tab.

They just butt up against the stock.  The rings aren't inlet.
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 09, 2024, 06:56:36 PM
That makes me happy, now it might be easier to file than turn. Also the Shaw pipe looks pretty thin in the portion in the stock about 1/32?
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 09, 2024, 08:52:33 PM
Yeah, I'd guess about .03". 
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: helwood on December 09, 2024, 10:01:06 PM
Greetings,
Jim I want to thank you very much for posting the photos and explanation.  That information would have saved me 2 months of R&D although I did have fun learning how to do it.  It's like you've said many times in the past, "you need to study the originals".  Not having that opertunity very often I Thank you very much for taking the time to explain to all of us.    Hank
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Pukka Bundook on December 10, 2024, 05:29:27 PM
Hank,
I agree entirely with what you say.
Often, we look at photos of originals, and after that, it's a case of reverse engineering.
So thankful for Jim and others showing the original parts.  Worth their weight in gold!
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 11, 2024, 01:16:32 AM
Had to give the filing method a go. Is it easier than turning, no, also not quicker, but the results will look good I think.
(https://i.ibb.co/xmpnYh7/1733868838485931271906603531910.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hXPGcsm)

(https://i.ibb.co/5cZDDmL/17338688691903677901033045481007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZT9ss5x)

(https://i.ibb.co/m0RV2fS/17338689093185006153540001507379.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NrFdJc7)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: flatsguide on December 11, 2024, 04:31:47 AM
Yes Jim, thank you for posting the information about the pipes.
JH, that entry pipe is starting to look good.
Cheers Richard
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: JH Ehlers on December 11, 2024, 07:37:14 PM
Most of the rough in filing done on the entry pipe. Filed in a slight taper leaning away from the center. Sure is very time consuming but doing a complex shape like this on a lathe becomes very difficult by hand.
(https://i.ibb.co/k9rhjDn/20241211-093154.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0FWfT9N)

(https://i.ibb.co/smXmj9C/20241211-093146.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X2G2XxD)
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: Jim Kibler on December 12, 2024, 01:19:08 AM
Wowzers!  That looks fantastic!
Title: Re: Ramrod pipes on a lathe
Post by: James Rogers on December 12, 2024, 02:22:04 AM
I'm envious! They are wonderful!
Thanks for sharing.