AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Avlrc on January 16, 2025, 04:33:03 PM
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https://lamasterarms.com/pages/virtual-show
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I just looked at it, there’re a lot of new and interesting things on there.
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Thanks for sharing - lots to look at and admire and learn from.
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Nice looking guns. I especially liked the Samuel States rifle in the black.
Al
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While we are picking favorites, I really like the Adam Ernst rifle. Very classy.
VP
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While we are picking favorites, I really like the Adam Ernst rifle. Very classy.
VP
Definitely "Classy"
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That's a Great gun!
I bought that Adam Ernst rifle from Mike D,Ambra, and owned it for many years. Then in a weak moment, sold it to mr no gold. That is one of my old guns that I wish I still had! :)
John
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I bought that Adam Ernst rifle from Mike D,Ambra, and owned it for many years. Then in a weak moment, sold it to mr no gold. That is one of my old guns that I wish I still had! :)
John
Well, here is your chance to reunite. I will say you & No Gold have good taste.
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I bought that Adam Ernst rifle from Mike D,Ambra, and owned it for many years. Then in a weak moment, sold it to mr no gold. That is one of my old guns that I wish I still had! :)
John
Well, here is your chance to reunite. I will say you & No Gold have good taste.
It's been an adventure having these two for friends! ;D
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Thanks for posting the link. There is some great items on here. The Jacob Kuntz is wonderful !
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I looked at Brian LaMaster's January internet sale this evening. There was an attributed Virginia fowler that sold, but everything else seems to still be there, despite some good-looking items. I presume he e-mails KRA members and has his sale posted on this site... a good-sized audience of potentially interested collectors, but he has not found many buyers.
A couple of his attractive rifles have had some restoration, and some pieces have substantial prices, but it seems like the collecting community is a little overly cautious these days, perhaps looking for bargains more than "keepers"... so they want a "safety margin" in the price they are willing to pay. As a longtime collector with a lot of "stuff," I'd like to see more activity when such a sale is posted. Makes me wonder if values for most of the things we collect... except for the best or rarest examples... are slowing more than some of us realize these days.
Shelby Gallien
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Test your theory. Offer that P. Wilson rifle at your purchased price and see if it has any inteest.
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His prices certainly haven't shown the reduction in overall prices that seems to be so prevalent.
For example, he has offered a couple rifles I previously owned, and sold about 5 years ago. I sold them for 18k and 21k, and he's asking 25k for each. I'm not saying they aren't worth 25k, but that seems to be in opposition to current pricing and sales.
Just my opinion, and others may not agree, John
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John,
We witnessed the downward trend start with a market saturation (Sirkin Collection), now a lack of interest / demand is finishing the job. The days of the high five / six figure longrifle is dead. I suppose this statement will be abrasive to some here on the forum but it's the truth, the population of the collecting fraternity is and has dwindled dramatically over the past 5 years far surpassing the number of new collectors entering the arena.
Buck
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Allan,
Which of my Pleasant Wilson rifles were you referring to... since I have the two best ones around? If it's the black one, my favorite among all the Kentucky guns I own, you're really out of luck!
Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/LzZ9xv09/MT-7-6c-PWilson-black-full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FbD85nh8)
(https://i.ibb.co/xt8HfR7h/MT-7-5c-PWilson-silver-full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PvzQ9f6x)
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YES!!! The black one. That's the one I watched sell at auction....so let's see if you can recoup your cost. Mark it up say 25% and see what happens.
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Allan,
If you recall the auction, it was like a "perfect storm" sale where several major factors came together to keep the hammer price down. First, it was misidentified as a VA rifle by the auction house with a long write-up about how it related to other VA guns and particularly those of Jonathan Wilson; second, at the time no other major collector knew who Pleasant Wilson was so the gun sold as an "unknown" maker, and third [the best for last], it was a large sale at a major auction house with only one or two guns among many other fine antiques, and it was held on the evening of the Super Bowl game so most guys were busy elsewhere. It opened at reserve, got a couple quick bids and died, and I ended up with an exceptional rifle from KY for much less than I expected to pay for it. Even a blind squirrel gets the acorn once in a while.
Shelby Gallien
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Yep! And I think you were in your car and it was raining??
OK, so make it 30% to start and let the bidding begin ;D
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Hi Shelby,
Any chance that Pleasant Wilson makes its way to the KRA this year? I think it would be the hit of the show!!
Would be a super rifle to get measurements and dimensions on.
Best,
Allen
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The black Pleasant Wilson may make it to the KRA, but not for measurements and dimensions purposes... which brings up another "unmentionable" reason for why the market for Kentuckies has softened.
In my opinion, the growth of fine reproduction rifles, and particularly high-quality copies of fine existing antique rifles, has damaged the value of original Kentuckies. It offers a partially satisfying alternative to collectors who cannot get their hands on guns they really want. The high prices of some modern Kentuckies, when purchased by KRA members and other established collectors, has two dampening effects on original rifle prices:
1. Modern purchases with significant price tags eat up a chunk of the discretionary income money available among collectors that could have gone toward original rifles, and that lost money leaves less to drive up bids on original Kentuckies, and fewer of those "I'll outbid you" battles where value at times is forgotten and egos take over in an auction.
2. When fine copies of originals are made, it takes away a bit of the specialness, or uniqueness, of the original gun. Its once unique, highly desirable details are now shared more widely and no longer on just one special gun. It is my opinion that those very fine copies of many of our finest rifles are partially responsible for a little less interest in the originals that have been copied... and results in a little less enthusiasm when the original comes back up for sale... or other originals similar to it.
I have always loved the work of John Noll above all other fine eastern gunmakers, and "way back when" I owned a fine Noll for a few years... until I realized how many fine Kentucky-made guns I could buy with the same money, so I moved the Noll. I mention this because last year I visited Marvin Kemper here in Indiana, and he had just finished a superb copy of one of the finest John Noll rifles known, and he let me handle and admire it. It was so good, in stock architecture, silver work, engraving, and fit & finish, that I instantly fell in love with it. I had to remind myself that at Marvin's prices, I could pick up several very good Kentucky guns that would have more meaning and historical context to me. The point is, I could easily see an advanced collector who loved Noll's work and wanted to someday add a fine one to his collection, getting hooked on Marvin's superb recreations and being satisfied with one... which in turn takes one more potential buyer off the market when the next real Noll comes up. To make matters worse, Marvin told me that wasn't the first copy of the superb original Noll that he had made.
So, to bring this long-winded epistle to a close, I believe there are more significant factors than just declining collectors and changing interests behind the decline in Kentucky values. A marketplace becoming filled with fine copies [perhaps even better than the originals] has an impact on softened values of original rifles by reducing the available money pool and appeasing some collectors' desires.
Shelby Gallien
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Never thought of that point with the Kentucky market. Although as a collector and builder, I will say that I would rather have an original any day of the week!
Those rifles by Mr Wilson are beautiful specimens of Kentucky Gunmaking. Would steal the show at the KRA I believe! Hope to see it there!
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Shelby, your epistle is sound measured reasoning. I do wonder, since excellent reproductions and creative pieces have been made continuously since the 1970s (consider Bivins, Chambers, Mandarino, Jack Haugh for example), whether this factor you’re bringing up has much greater impact now than it did then. I’m not sure but Marvin was likely doing great work then as well. Bill Shipman was another doing wonderful reproductions of originals by the early 80s. Your thoughts?
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Speaking as a low end enthusiast, I have an original signed and in super condition Ambrose Lawing. A copy would not fulfil the connection to the man. Those who connect only to the rifle via a copy are missing the point. Or at least that's the way I see it.
No matter how well done, a copy is a copy.
Just to add to that thought, I have several "nice" replicas. I'll not call them copies just contemporary works by well known artists. On those occasions when I share viewing them with a visitor it is not unusual for the question to arise, "is that an antique" (or original)? I am never tempted to provide a false reply but in that moment, the shallow connection to a copy vs the passion to connect to the original maker of an original rifle is at it's height.
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You could also argue that groceries have limited the amount that can be spent on original longrifles. My point is that there are lots of reasons for our spending to be limited. To single out one seems a little simplistic and not that helpful. It also seems to come from an "original centric" mindset. This all is just sort of "what it is" in my view. Kind of like shrugging your shoulders and saying "oh well".
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Shelby,
Great guns, I'd love to have either of those 2 hanging on my wall. In the words of Louie Parker - "it doesn't need to be elaborately decorated to be a great gun, a great gun is a great gun."
In regard to the dwindling numbers, the numbers don't lie. Look at the age demographics of the collecting field and the interest of anyone under 50 years of age. It's a shame since it's a large factor in the existence of our country, look at the enthusiasm of the 1970's when Jeremiah Johnson was on the big screen and Friendship Indiana was full throttle - does anyone see a parallel in the fervor of the 1970's to the 2020's? The only parallel I see is the same people with white hair and a lot more absentees than participants - that's not meant to be disrespectful as a lot of my mentors have moved on to refreshment. It's unfortunate, maybe there will be a resurgence in interest but the younger generation prefer modern weaponry in lieu of our beloved interest because that's what they've followed. Just my thoughts.
Buck
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I've seen this across collecting communities - not long ago, I sold off most of what remained of my vintage racing bicycle collection - a lot of Eddy Merckx through Greg Lemond era stuff. I had to take peanuts for things like a Masi frame that would have been swarmed at the same swap meet 10 years ago.
That being said, I wonder whether some of the issue with long rifles has to do with the fact that many of the nicer examples would in the 1970's have been associated with the Revolutionary War, whereas dating now has pushed them much later. So they have lost their association with Bunker Hill and Brandywine and Cowpens. Instead, they are from an era of history most Americans know very little about, until suddenly the Civil War happens. I think some of that appeal to the imagination has gone once you lose those iconic names and places from the pages of 5th grade history books. This is me spit-balling - I'm here to learn.
I think a second aspect of this has to do with social media and the rise of platforms like YouTube. The popular "guntubers" that feature historical firearms - for example Forgotten Weapons - rarely if ever touch on American long rifles, in part because the knowledgeable people on those channels didn't grow up with an interest in firearms from the 18th and early 19th centuries. They really only go back as far as maybe the Civil War for the most part. So younger would-be collectors are being fed a steady diet of WWI and later firearms associated with major conflicts, or perhaps interesting guns from the period of rapid innovation in the mid-late 1800s, compared to which the technology of long rifles is quite static for the most part, and not all that interesting in and of itself. In the world of YouTube, I think that technology factor is huge.
Thirdly, people who can afford the best of the best and know what they are looking at, and who are on the hunt, can be very stingy with their knowledge, for obvious reasons. So it stays trapped in the heads of a previous generation of collectors. Yes, there are the books we all know, but the real knowledge takes time to acquire and refine. It's easier to watch a YouTube video or a "collectors guide" to know what to look for, and as we all know, a deeper appreciation required handling multiple examples and sitting at the feet of a master. It takes time, and we are not a patient society.
Fourth, I think long rifle collectors represent a unique confluence of people interested in firearms and people with an appreciation of aesthetics more generally. That is not to say aesthetics isn't a factor for many firearms enthusiasts, but when it comes to American long rifles, the aesthetics are primary. These cultural objects have more of an affinity with fine furniture or blown glass or a beautifully executed picture frame than they do with, say, a custom Colt 1911. And I think that culturally our aesthetic appreciation is in general rather poor. Look at the buildings and objects of use we are surrounded by every day, emphasizing utility over being pleasing to the eye.
These are just a couple of thoughts from a bottom-feeder in the arms collecting community prompted by this very interesting and informative discussion. Apologies for the 20-minute drum solo.
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Buck,
I am not disregarding the major reasons of fewer collectors and changing interests for weaker prices on Kentuckies. My point is simply that there may be other, more subtle reasons contributing to the softening prices as well, and not just the obvious ones we all talk about.
Shelby
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EGG17601, thanks for some very interesting and well explained thoughts. You make some very good points, I agree with them.
The 3rd point is most interesting. It's a Paradox that collectors of rare things do not want to "out" their existance or details. So their popularity never rises. Popularity, i.e. Demand, has to be there for high prices. I always say, "In the Supply and Demand equation for value, weigh demand much more heavily." Many of us have found and bought very rare items from the 1700s or early 1800s...it was the pre-Industrial age...MOST things were made in small numbers. And time destroys more examples every 20 years. But crowds of people walk by the item.
Case in point. One of the hundreds of high quality items that are down in value are American Brilliant Period cut glass crystal. The best ever made. A ABP bowl would take 2 days of skilled labor to make, and sell for $40 in 1895. About $1500 in today's money. I saw one among the dregs on a table of glassware at an antique fair a month ago. It had a silver rim, I saw the tiny Sterling mark everyone missed. I asked what he wanted, said $35. I decided to pass, didn't need another. A month later, last weekend, it was still there. I asked what he wanted, this time he said $10. I bought it. Polished the silver rim, it's hallmarked Gorham Sterling 1895. Then I inspected the crystal better. It's etched with the maker, Clark, who was a respected glass cutter company with hundreds of employees. $10 because nobody wanted it. It's https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54311443182_98bfff42b3_h.jpg (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54311443182_98bfff42b3_h.jpg).
Point being you are right. The 1-2 guys that like the obscure long rifles made by an 1799 gunsmith in West Virginia are not competing with many other collectors, because they do not write about, talk about, or Youtube about that great gunsmith.
Your other points deserve careful consideration too. Good job.
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Thank you for the positive feedback. I realize I am new here, and didn't intend to jump in with an essay. The topic is one I have given a lot of thought over many years in other realms of collecting (my father collected American art), and obviously there is a variety of ways/reasons we each respond aesthetically and otherwise to our chosen objects of interest - or maybe they choose us. In any case, yours was a very welcoming response to what I wrote, and it is much appreciated.