AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: foresterdj on January 23, 2025, 02:03:50 AM
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Last thing to do on my Fowler is rust brown/blue my barrel.
Set up: using a ladder wrapped with plastic as a humidity tent, barrel hangs under ladder, a pan of warm water under it (but not too steamy, did that once a couple years ago and got condensation and pitting) with a space heater blowing on it to add heat. Temperature in shop about 64 degrees F, Rh about 47%. It is mostly below zero outside, so the outdoor Rh of 70-90% has little actual moisture in it.
First try started last weekend. I will say that applying light not overlapping strokes on a round barrel is not as easy as octagon. First application, waited 20 hrs, nothing. Wiped as instruction say and did a second application, waited 24 hrs, a light grey, I imagined a little copper color. Thought a prep to 320 grit was too smooth, so sanded back to bare metal at 220 grit. I always wash then with dawn, rince and wipe with acetone.
Second try started yesterday. Set up a dowel in vice to hold barrel horizontal under better light and used optivisor to help me see the application. Still, barely wetted on round is hard to follow and ensure no overlap. Then hung under ladder.
Waited 24 hours to this morning and a slight grey but no red rusting. Did the wipe and second application routine and hung it back up. Will check tomorrow.
I did two barrels last winter and had no problems, it worked as it should. Slow, because of low humidity, but it worked.
If I could get some rust going, I could move to the hot scalding bath to make it blue. But for now I wait. Frustrated. Should have been shooting it by now.
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I would say both your temperature and RH are too low. I run my sweat box at 90 degrees F and 90% RH. Used to do it by guess and by gosh but, after a recent self-induced bad experience, installed electronic controllers and love em. They are dirt cheap these days. I use an old steam iron (dry) as a heat source and a small electric pot with a temperature control for humidity. Just finished browning a lock and some other bits using LMF. Applied LMF and hung in box. Removed and reapplied LMF after one hour and then, after another three hours, removed, carded and reapplied and back in box. After that, sweated for one hour intervals with carding and reapplication between sweats. Took about 6 - 8 sweats. I have never had a problem with overlap when applying a browning solution. In fact, I don't see how you could be sure of 100% coverage without some overlap.
I consider a 320 finish to be about right and never put cold parts in the box when humidity is high. You will get condensation on the parts, resulting in water spotting and other unwanted things.
You could probably gear up a makeshift sweat box using an old cardboard box about the size of a refrigerator box. It would hold in the heat better than a sheet plastic tent.
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My experience with sweat boxes was bad. When I got a little condensation I had to start over.
I live in coastal California. The temperatures are moderate to cool. The humidity is low. I find that being patient works best. Sometimes it takes a couple of day to get the rust going well.
Second best is to wet down my shower with hot water. I then hang the barrel in there and close the curtain. In the morning I have plenty of rust.
IF you are looking for instant results use cold blue or JAX. Birchwood Casey brown works but tends to be uneven for me. I do use it for small parts.
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Ya, I am sure more heat and humidity would resolve. I should maybe build in July and August when we have heat and humidity outside, but gun work is my in the shop winter project.
I have a bunch of big cardboard pieces I have been collecting for patterning work. I can put some of them around my plastic tent to help hold heat. Then tomorrow when I can be there to monitor I will use my little buddy heater. It puts out way more heat, as well as humidity. At least in the ice house or deer stand it sure fogs/frosts things up.
I will report back.
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Check with “Rifle “ magazine in Prescott AZ and see if they have any copies/ back issues of John Bivins article on building a browning box.
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Old post of mine. Might be of some help......
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=21382.0
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This looks more like what forester needs than the Bivins box. ( Bivins box is for long term use and really needs a bulb in bottom of box as heat source.)
At any rate whatever setup is used….must be able to seal it reasonably well and maintain humidity at a workable level ( condensation will,leave a spotty finish.)). A suggestion….hanging cloth strips with one end in bowl of water to maintain constant humidity level through evaporation. I suspect heat may be optional…..place box in sunlight to provide warmth for maintaining a bit higher humidity level.
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Build horizontal box. Put in a light bulb. Put in a number of ceramic cups or cut off plastic bottles. I put in water with some of the browning solution in it with some paper towels to soak it up and give more surface area. But its pretty low humidity here winter with heat or summer RH goes down to the teens or less at times in summer. Never had pitting but it twice a day.
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Check with “Rifle “ magazine in Prescott AZ and see if they have any copies/ back issues of John Bivins article on building a browning box.
I have a copy. Jerry
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In the winter when humidity was low I had good luck running the hot water in the shower until the bathroom was warm and steamy. I then hung the barrel from the shower nozzle with a 5 gallon bucket under it to catch any drippings (very important if you value your hide) closed the door and waited as per instructions. Worked for me.
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sweat box the easy way: I take a hard plastic gun case, remove the padding. With box laying flat, I put wet rags in bottom. Place barrel or parts in box so they do not touch the wet rags. Close the lid and come back next day. A warm enviroment helps speed the process. Always works for me. When done, put the case back together and put the modern thing back in it and you are done!
Regards,
DGB
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sweat box the easy way: I take a hard plastic gun case, remove the padding. With box laying flat, I put wet rags in bottom. Place barrel or parts in box so they do not touch the wet rags. Close the lid and come back next day. A warm enviroment helps speed the process. Always works for me. When done, put the case back together and put the modern thing back in it and you are done!
Regards,
DGB
Interesting!
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I found the PVC pipe method and never looked back. It works first time every time, I can brown parts, rust blue parts, and barrels. And, it leans in the corner of my shop when it’s not being used by someone else.
Hungry Horse
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I have a “coffin” with a hot plate and a pot of water. And dowels the barrel lays across. I use the old wakon bay brown. I bought a lifetime supply when I heard production ended. Their rust blue was the same formula the only difference was the boiling step. One treatment 12 to 24 hours till done. BJH
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I've never gotten good results with LMF browning using steam. Down here the air gets hot and humid. I wait until it's just right then wipe on the solution laying the barrel across a bucket and small parts on plywood. This gives me the deepest, brownest most durable finish I've ever gotten.
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I've never gotten good results with LMF browning using steam. Down here the air gets hot and humid. I wait until it's just right then wipe on the solution laying the barrel across a bucket and small parts on plywood. This gives me the deepest, brownest most durable finish I've ever gotten.
What is just right?
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Normal for late spring and summer. Hot and Humid. I have a rifle I did in the tub. I kept a light in there and as hot and humid as possible. It turned out pretty bad to my eye. I've wondered if I could just degrease it and rebrown like I do the others and how it might turn out.
BTW I am in middle Georgia.
Just remembered; I check the weather forcasts and look for several days of higher humidity. I don't want to do it when the humidity is low.
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I live in east MS, it's almost always humid here.
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Some progress today. Sanded back again, degreased, applied and hung in my make shift ladder tent. Did like I saw in a video and ran dry heat until 100+F, to warm barrel and ensure no condensation on it. Then added heat via hot plate and water pan. Little buddy heater even on low, makes too much heat when not vented, was up to 140 or more (marks stop at 120 on my thermometer). So would need to open to vent. Problem was that I could get 70-80% Rh when closed up, but this would drop fast when vented.
After some time I stopped and let it all cool down for inspection. muzzle end was at bottom closest to steam pan and had a good brown. This decreased going up and breach seemed to have none.
I did a boiling distilled water scald. Muzzle turned black instantly, breach actually changed some after a few minutes. So obviously there was some brown rust there. I will repeat, breach down tomorrow to try and balance out. At least I am finally getting somewhere.
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Hmmmm. I thought I was getting progress, but it stalled in the blotchy streaky mess. Eventually took it back to bare shiny metal again. My bottles of LMF going to the trash. I have a bottle of American Rust Blue from rustblue.com coming. In the meantime, per some recommendations, I built a browning cabinet.
(https://i.ibb.co/xqtk4JV3/barrel-browning-locker.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Sw4jLRqJ)
I modified somewhat, added a low door to access the bulb and water bowl without opening the main door, also a window so I can check on it without opening door, and a vent, in case it gets too hot. I had everything but the hinges and vent, so mostly just my time.
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Like I said earlier it's almost always humid here. The first time I ever used LMF was on my woodsrunner and it worked perfectly. The other day I decided to brown a rolling block I've been working on. The barrel is doing good. The receiver and lower tang/trigger guard aren't doing much and the hammer and block etc. aren't doing anything at all. :o
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Ya, I have no ideas. I went back and looked at my notes and pictures from last winter, 2 barrels done with LMF, one took 3 treatments with boiling for a nice black, the other 5 treatments for a nice brown. Everything worked fine last year. Some of the LMF I used this year was the same bottle as last year, some a brand new bottle. So like the title says, "LMF giving me fits". But three tries is all it gets this year.
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When you apply the rusting soln,,do you pour a little out of the main bottle into another container,,and work with the smaller amt that you pour off into that second container?
Or do you dampen your applicator pad/swab right from the mouth of the main bottle of the soln that it comes in?
If you are doing the second,,you may be contaminating the entire bottle of rusting soln.
Then every time you re-apply another cycle/coating you drag more contamination (usually oil or grease) onto the surface along with the rusting solution.
It will usually still rust the surface, but not as well as w/o any contamination obviously.
Then that surface when carded, still has the contamination on it and the carding wheel gets loaded with the junk as well and that spreads it around each time.
Alos the contaminates stay in the boiling water tank,,they are on the applicator pad as well though that is easily discarded each time. But a new one just picks up the junk that has already been loaded into the bottle of soln.
If you haven't already, always pour a small amt out into a separate bottle to work with on the project. Then when done with that project,,dump that any that is left over in that small jar/bottle.
Maybe you already do this but I thought it worth mentioning.
Never scrub LMF onto the surfaces, it will plate-out the copper sulfate in it in the form of a thin copper plating.
Also if the surfaces are 'warm' and by that I mean much more than say 75F (Room Temp?), the chances of the copper plate issue are elevated no matter how careful the appication is done.
A very light touch when applying. Once up and don't come back over the same surface on the back stroke.
Never apply to warm surfaces on parts.
I'd ditch all the moisture box and plastic tent assemblys and just hang it from the bathroom shower rod.
Close the drain, run the hot water for a few minutes to steam up the room some and catch the hot water in the tub.
Keep the door closed.
The part(s) will be nicely and evenly rusted in about an hour and a half to 2 hrs.
Nothing in anyones way, nothing to store or breakdown and stash in the corner when not being used. No drop cornes or hot plates.
A bathroom with the door closed,,how unusual.
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I use LMF all the time. I use a pc of 4" pvc about 5' long with a cap glued on one end. The other end has a wood block with a hole in it that a wire runs thru to hold the barrel thru the tang screw hole. I poor a 16 oz bottle of hot tap water in . Then hang the [barrel that is wired to the block] over the water. Keep in a warm place and apply as many coats as needed. I usually do 3 to 4 days until it looks really ugly then sand it off . It gives a dark gray finely pitted finish. Small parts go in a plastic container with a wet paper towel.
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Not sure what the problem is with my LMF this year. Have used it successfully in previous years.
I pour a tiny bit in a plastic cup, soak my cotton applicator, wring it out good and lightly, no rub, no overlap if possible. If applicator runs dry, I get more on it. I usually have only drops left in my cup, because I start with such a small amount, so just toss it, or soak up with a paper towel and toss it.
Last year my simple plastic tent with a pan of water and my space heater worked. That and other options this year not so.
The cabinet does seem like over kill, but I am waiting on the different solution from rustblue.com and had the time, so built it.
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If you now have your temperature and humidity under control and are waiting for the Rustblue product, why not give the LMF another try? If you would rather not try it on your parts, use a test piece. Although not a fan of LMF due to challenges in stopping the action, it is the most aggressive product I have used and has never failed to get the job done. Test pieces are an excellent way to assess the effectiveness of different products and processes although, to some extent, the effectiveness of any given product is dependent on the composition of the steel.
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3 strikes and you are out.
The definition of insanity is taking the same action over and over expecting different results.
Interesting is that when I wring out my applicator, I usually get some on my steel bench top, and it browns that nicely. Without being washed or degreased or nothin'.
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You can get a similar "rusting" effect by burning small piles of black powder in a room.
We found that out when the spindles on dad's drill press got a nice brown patina to it.
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I did three cycles of application, browning, boil/scald, card, repeat. The American Rust Blue from rustblue.com reacted with barrel as one expects. The browning cabinet did work good. The 60w incandescent bulb would raise the temperature inside about 10 to 12 degrees over shop temp., and with the tiny tray of water over it the Rh went from shop 40% to 70 - 72% inside the cabinet. I rusted for about 6-7 hours each time, at 69-70 degrees and 70-72% Rh.
I am happy with the dark black/blue color achieved. Here are two pictures.
(https://i.ibb.co/LX9yxfLW/rb-final-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MxPHcLY4)
(https://i.ibb.co/kVF5mW3L/rb-final-c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NgztTH10)