AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: smart dog on January 27, 2025, 02:52:47 AM
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Hi,
We are very busy. I have not posted much because I have so much work to get done before "Battle Road" in April. Maria was here over her Christmas break and worked on her British officer's fusil. We cast and then she began sculpting the sideplate and wrist plate.
(https://i.ibb.co/grtk0D2/Maria-sculpting-sideplate-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YNfH5tC)
(https://i.ibb.co/6wkWP2N/Maria-sculpting-sideplate-2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/1RxHqLc/Maria-sculpting-sideplate-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZcCy8V9)
(https://i.ibb.co/FKkdXXm/Maria-sculpting-sideplate-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jT9jzzb)
I have 2 pattern 1742 Brown Besses to make but am also working on 2 English sporting rifles. The first is full stocked and inspired by the two famous Twigg rifles shown in Neal's Great British Gunmakers: 1740-1790. I am not copying the rifles because the owner wants some changes. He does not like single set triggers, which were used on the originals but want double sets. I have never seen double set triggers on English flintlock rifles from the 18th and early 19th centuries. That is OK and I will tuck the set trigger in close to the rear of the trigger guard bow so it won't be obvious. Unfortunately, our choices for steel hardware for British guns is dismal. So many options disappeared during the last decade. Anyway, I made do with a trigger guard from TOW. The bow of the guard is much too big and it was probably copied from a double barreled gun. If you use it as is it looks so awkward. So I cut off the forward curl of the bow and made the bow smaller. No set triggers you can buy look anything like triggers used on British sporting guns but the best option for double sets are triggers for Hawken rifles. They have to be modified a lot but they can work although the double triggers probably are a fantasy for British sporting guns. Anyway, I reshaped the trigger guard, welded in a threaded stud and drastically reshaped a Hwken trigger set from L&R.
(https://i.ibb.co/5Rbjh2r/Bob-s-trigger-guard-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JsDpjCv)
(https://i.ibb.co/LZpHxty/Bob-s-trigger-guard-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nLkt7cy)
(https://i.ibb.co/tsv0Kxn/Bob-s-trigger-guard-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4TXbtYC)
(https://i.ibb.co/Wcx4fzF/Bob-s-trigger-guard-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K90pWs7)
It will work out pretty well. The Davis Twigg lock needed a lot of work. I changed the geometry of the lock and replaced all of the tiny screws they use to hold the internals. On this rifle, the lock is secured by one bolt with the nose of the lock held in place by a hook and screw stud. Here is the hook I made. It is threaded through the lock plate but I will eventually countersink the outside of the hole, cut off the threads leaving about 1/8 inch of excess above the lock plate. Then I will melt that excess with a welding torch to fill the countersink, permanently attaching the lug. When file flush, the hole will disappear.
(https://i.ibb.co/bF7hmvY/Bob-s-lock-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1MbVQXB)
(https://i.ibb.co/5YD8hxr/Bob-s-lock-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gsw2Q3W)
(https://i.ibb.co/SQhw14B/Bob-s-lock-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mvL5YV4)
More to come.
dave
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Dave,
Following along.
I have been considering a English Sporting rifle project. I have a nice piece of California grown English type walnut that will make a half stock. My concern is the breech plug and the appropriate tang to go with it. As you say there aren't may options for these parts now.
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Hi Scott,
Use the fitted breech plug with your barrel, cut off the tang, and file the bolster into the hook. Then get Ketland, Griffin, or Twigg standing breeches from the Rifle Shoppe. They usually a bunch of at least one of those styles in stock. Rice is also making a standing breech. However, the current one has such a short tang that it is difficult to fit right. Jason told me at Kempton that he was going to start making them longer and with excess metal so folks could shape them as they desire.
dave
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I'm following along too. I love the English guns. I might even end up finishing mine one of these days.
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I too am following along Dave!
It comes over a bit knarly when someone wants a British rifle with parts that were almost never put on a British rifle, so I can feel for you!
Still, I know you will do a Fantastic job of it!
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Following along as well, I've really come to appreciate British guns in the past couple of years.
As an aside, I worked seasonally at Minute Man NHP in Concord for years as a teenager into early 20s, the Battle Road event was always a fun time.
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It’s nice seeing this level of work.
Cheers Richard
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The viewing gallery is growing Dave. I think because people like the British style guns AND the level of workmanship displayed by you and Maria. Thanks for documenting your efforts.
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Dave, like Smylee, I love to see your workmanship. Sometimes it even inspires me to keep trucking onward. Always, it sets a high standard.
Knowing next to nothing about English (British?) flintlocks, this is also a large learning opportunity.
I do have one English firearm, but it's percussion, a double 15-bore from about 1850. Love the intricate work on it.
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Hi Folks,
Thanks for looking and commenting. Maria is back at school but I am busy as I can handle. Here is where I am on my latest English sporting rifle. As I wrote previously, I am not copying the Twigg rifles that inspire this project but am trying to keep to a plausible example made in England during the late 1770s and early 1780s. The rifle is not of the generation including the Mantons, Richards, Langs, Purdey's etc. It is of the last generation of English makers who never experienced the percussion era. However, it is supposed to represent a fine English gun and that means very high quality. I shaped the stock and installed most of the components, all of which required extensive modifications. The plain black walnut is very light colored and I may use ferric nitrate on it to darken it.
(https://i.ibb.co/yBRxtfSX/Bob-s-rough-stock-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dJcHFWgr)
Inletting on English guns should look like the metal grew into the wood.
(https://i.ibb.co/Vp5xPZ0D/Bob-s-rough-stock-2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xr1zn5nJ/Bob-s-rough-stock-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zTpS323f)
(https://i.ibb.co/bM4XhdnB/Bob-s-rough-stock-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RkXcnHW0)
There will be a highly figure walnut patch box lid that will complement the butt stock. The cheek piece will also add a nice touch to the butt stock.
(https://i.ibb.co/s9qsph1f/Bob-s-rough-stock-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5hLsXdj0)
Builders often fret about barrel keys. On this gun there will be no escutcheon plates so the fit of the keys must be perfect.
(https://i.ibb.co/bR6XgY73/Bob-s-rough-stock-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BKfBVvwP)
I have a question to put to all of you. There will be a simple oval wrist plate but I am considering checkering the wrist. The barrel tang will have a rolling shell carved its end. The original Twigg rifles have no checkering but I like the style, appropriate for the time, that I did on this rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/RkV4ZQtQ/finished-fusil-11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bM8RqNYN)
(https://i.ibb.co/YBfb53zT/finished-fusil-22.jpg) (https://ibb.co/60DNKm3J)
It is appropriate for the time period. Should I do it or leave the wrist plain?
dave
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I say, yes to the checkering. I think it looks really nice. Kudos to you for working hard and keeping your shop humming. I remember this sort of work and it certainly takes discipline. Beautiful work.
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I say yes to checkering. I hope I have another rifle in me. I have a lovely blank of Turkish walnut long enough to make a full length stock for an English Sporting Rifle that I will checker.
That’s a nice looking rifle Dave.
Cheers Richard
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I say yes to checkering. I hope I have another rifle in me. I have a lovely blank of Turkish walnut long enough to make a full length stock for an English Sporting Rifle that I will checker.
That’s a nice looking rifle Dave.
Cheers Richard
That level of quality in wood lends itself to fine checkering.I made a half stock New York style cap lock out of a walnut blank that was from Russia and checkered the grip portion and it turned out well.Silver butt plate and trigger guard from a badly damaged antique that was from an antique shop (maybe).After locating where the barrel wedge would be I milled it with a 1/4" end mill and then a 3/8"dovetail mill.
I have a flat block of ground steel that's wjde enough for a variety of jobs and laid the barrel on the top flat and used a Vernier height gauge to find the true depth of the dovetail cut and the put the barrel back in the stock after marking its location and then using the height gauge I marked the stock and slotted it for the single wedge.The slotting was done AFTER the forearm was shaped and ready for finish.I sold that rifle shortly after it was done and it was 45 caliber 34"long and 1 inch across the flats.The lock was a common style with drum and nipple I made for it and a single set trigger I made.The trigger guard was too small for a properly made double set type.
Bob Roller
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I'll take the other side. The checkering above is absolutely fantastic. However, to my eye checkering can sometimes push a gun over the edge of too much decoration or appear too busy. I think checkering looks better on guns that aren't as ornate where it serves perhaps a more functional purpose and can compensate for minimal carving. Just my humble left-brained opinion.
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I will also say checker the wrist Dave.
It was in use in this period, and although I understand where Lone Wolf is coming from, checkering was there for a reason, as it is now.
It needs to be of the skip style like you did in the lovely example you posted above in my mind.
This is both practical and beautiful. (And a Lot of work!)
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Personally I would say go for it. The style of checkering of that time period ( flat top center dot ) I think goes well with your carving.
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Hi,
Crunch time. Battle road is coming up and we are thick fixing repro Brown Besses and engraving regimental markings. We also have several projects of our own nearing completion. Maria is with me home for spring break and working on her officer's fusil. I am finishing up a late 1770s English sporting rifle. The repros can be rabbit holes that suck you down into the land of the Cheshire cat and the Mad Hatter. All of the repro locks are bad and they all need work. When we are done, the owners are amazed. The locks work great, their trigger pull is no longer 15 lbs, and if we forge them a new mainspring, they cannot believe how smooth and efficient it feels, and how well their locks work. Most just don't know any better.
Here is Maria's officer's fusil as she creates the outline of the carving before she whiskers the stock.
(https://i.ibb.co/Kzq4T0N7/maria-carving-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5x8pbMYv)
(https://i.ibb.co/67DzLyj0/maria-carving-2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/q3rD853G/maria-carving-3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Now it is ready for whiskering with black water based dye.
(https://i.ibb.co/7tKh1cXq/whiskering-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m54pcsG3)
(https://i.ibb.co/23Q0RZq1/whiskering-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7t5xBkvd)
(https://i.ibb.co/GfPp45gy/whiskering-3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
It is going to be spectacular. The wrist will be checkered in the proper manor. Here is my English sporting rifle during the finishing stage. I am still applying finish to fill the grain. It is inspired by work by John Twigg but is my own creation. The checkering diamonds are divided into quarters, each of which will have a dot.
(https://i.ibb.co/w3KVqw5/bob-s-rifle-finish-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2mjxrsG)
(https://i.ibb.co/j96rdzPw/bob-s-rifle-finish-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p60LgQBK)
(https://i.ibb.co/xtwrj7P2/bob-s-rifle-finish-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jw8S7s0c)
(https://i.ibb.co/1J81NRhV/bob-s-rifle-finish-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sJyn4skS)
The owner wanted double set triggers, something not seen on 18th century English sporting rifles. So I added them but the only ones that worked were L&R Hawken triggers. I cut the trigger plate to size and filed its shape. I reshaped the triggers and got rid of the anemic wire spring for the front trigger, which was mounted in a very crude way. I used flat spring steel from Bob Roller and shaped a new spring that is 100% better and is anchored by the screw holding the main spring.
(https://i.ibb.co/LXjbYgfk/bob-s-triggers-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C3CNm9F1)
(https://i.ibb.co/dJs1cr9D/bob-s-triggers-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sJpkP2Sq)
(https://i.ibb.co/Swcmpc0h/bob-s-triggers-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RTN6WNPx)
I also got rid of the fragile set screw and replaced it with one far more robust. I hate it when the trigger slots in the trigger plate are too wide so the triggers wobble side to side. I am going to make bushings for both triggers that eliminate that slop. These triggers will feel smooth and precise as a watch when I am done.
More to come.
dave
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I and im sure other here enjoy viewing the work both of you are producing. Thank you for letting us ride along. :)
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I hate it when the trigger slots in the trigger plate are too wide so the triggers wobble side to side. I am going to make bushings for both triggers that eliminate that slop.
I initially got a double set trigger from LR for my jaeger and I was very disappointed with how sloppy they were. They got replaced with a much better set from Ron Scott.
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Hi,
I got Maria started on her first checkering job. She never did this before. We use a 1770s design seen on some fine sporting guns by Durs Egg. It is not the rather unsophisticated early large checkering typically used during this period. It has each large diamond divided into quadrants by finer lines. Each quadrant will have a dot. My previous rifled officer's fusil had 1020 dots. Maria's will have about that many as well. I have mylar diamond templates with 45, 60, and 90 degree main angles. We used the 60 degree template to lay out the design. First we draw a center line on top of the wrist. Then we measure down from that line to the point where we want the "V" surrounding the tails of the lock and side plate panels. It is important that both sides of the wrist are close to symmetrical otherwise the checkering gets funky fast. We used a template to check both sides when final shaping the wrist. The mylar template helps establish the angles when oriented with the point at those "Vs" at the ends of the lock and side plate panels. Using 1/4" tape, we establish the main lines on either side of the stock so they match at the ends on both sides and cross at the center line on the top. Then we shallowly cut those main lines with a 60 degree single line checkering tool. Once those lines were cut, Maria used a 1/16" 60 degree skip line tool to cut lines parallel to the main line on both sides. That cuts lines 1/8" apart.
(https://i.ibb.co/sp8KWFWv/maria-checkering-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TD94WHWB)
(https://i.ibb.co/93f8sMp7/maria-checkering-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YTKRprNx)
(https://i.ibb.co/CfWSVz2/maria-checkering-3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Two sets of parallel lines with the skip line tool create the 1/4" wide major diamonds forming the pattern. So the next step after cutting the fine lines is to deepen the main lines to form the large diamonds. This she does first by cutting them deeper with a single line 60 degree cutter.
(https://i.ibb.co/kgPXf36d/maria-checkering-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ynxq1hB3)
Then she uses my home made checkering saw that cuts deep grooves.
(https://i.ibb.co/F420YnG0/maria-checkering-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N25mN7wm)
Finally she uses a checkering file to widen those main lines. She got the hang of it very quickly and has lost a lot of her anxiety about doing it. It still is a bit scary. Normally, checkering is done after several coats of finish are on the gun hardening the wood. However, this early checkering is best done before applying finish because the key tool is a little saw and none of the diamonds are very fragile. That also allows you the chance to fix mistakes before finish is applied.
More to come.
dave
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David,
You Sir are an evil taskmaster.
You know about my first (and only) checkering project. That is probably the most scared I’ve ever been working on a gun.
BUT, that young lady is getting the training I wish I’d had 30 years ago.
Nicely done….. both of you!
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I've never done enough checkering to feel at ease with it and can feel myself tensing up just looking at the pictures. Nicely done Maria, and you as well Dave.
Robby
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Dave,
After one particularly traumatic checkering job, I still get the shakes when I see it being done!
Yet here is Maria, doing a grand job, and I don't see her hands shaking at all in the photos.
What a start she is getting with you as her taskmaster!
The sporting gun looks Lovely! Stock shape just begs to be handled!!
Beautiful work Dave!!
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Out standing work and very capable young woman.My best wood working can be considered as semi skilled at best.Maria is a blessing to you and the rest of us.I also have a lovely young woman in my life for the last 7 years.Her name is Amanda and I plugged up the holes in her degree in American History as it concerns WW2. I asked her if she ever met any of the veterans of that war and she said,"Very Few".
My lock and trigger making for the German Schuetzenbund fascinated her and she was surprised that some of them were WW2 veterans and one flew for the Luftwaffe and another was a mechanic for the heavy Tiger series of tanks.We stay in contact and like Maria,she is a joy and delight in the life of a man nearly 89.When I told her my wife Brenda had a lot of joint pain she offered to send over night several containers of Hempvana and I told her we have it in the house.She IS from a fine family.
Bob Roller
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Hi,
Today was good but also frustrating. For me I cleaned up a pattern 1742 Bess lock made from TRS parts that was butchered by the maker. I hate these jobs but I also want to help folks who are committed reenactors that just don't know any better. I no longer accept work on India-made reproductions and am getting to the point where I won't work on Miroku or Pedersoli reproductions unless it is to completely rebuild the entire gun with a new stock, trigger guard, and butt plate. I also hate to fix muskets with TRS parts made by makers who just don't know what they are doing. That is why Maria and I are writing a book about making all patterns of the King's musket. We intend to educate folks how to build these guns correctly in every detail.
On the plus and good side, Maria finished the layout of the checkering on her officer's fusil. She did a terrific job and I am very proud of her. Here is the gun.
(https://i.ibb.co/4ZwF7NCr/maria-checkering-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zhWmrfCv)
(https://i.ibb.co/Hp27SCw4/maria-checkering-7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S7xNjcYy)
(https://i.ibb.co/93yD2V67/maria-checkering-8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HpGSYx6j)
This is the kind of work that even our best contemporary gun makers are reluctant to do. We will eventually deepen all the lines. Maria had to go back to school today so the work stops at this point. One of the things that caused Maria anxiety was how the lines curved differently as she worked back toward the comb. This is normal and is caused by changes in the cross sectional profile of the stock. Most folks don't realize that when they walk a straight compass bearing they are actually walking in a curve dictated by the curvature of the Earth. It is the same on a stock. The round cross section of the stock determines how the "straight" checkering line actually looks. If you were a tiny person walking the checkered line, you would think you were walking in a straight line. But in 3D you are not. On more modern guns, the sides of the stock are flatter and even late flint English guns, the cross section of the stocks was a vertical oval so the sides did not curve a lot. As a result, checkering lines retain the apparent angles much better and look straighter. Not so on 18th century British guns in which the wrist was more spherical near the breech and becoming more fat oval at the comb. On those guns, the angle of the rear border line looks to be not parallel with the front borders. That is just the way they are.
dave
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You got the right person on the job, looks great.
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Hi Ken.
Yes, Maria is doing very well as long as I can keep her focused on the work rather than the other distractions happening in her life. I want to throw away her mobile phone. At times, it would give me great pleasure to hit it with a 5 lb sledge. To do the checkering, I made her turn off her phone and ignore it. That helped a great deal. I did not have anyone to teach me how to do this work or cast and sculpt high end mounts and engrave. She is benefiting from my fearlessness learning to do this work and I am teaching her to become fearless as well.
dave
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She is benefiting from my fearlessness learning to do this work and I am teaching her to become fearless as well.
For me, this is the hardest thing. I'm procrastinating for days about starting carving a new section, because I don't want to mess it up. And then I go 'screw it', get going and it's fine....until I get to the next part and it all starts over.
Granted, I do think it has saved me from some bigger mistakes, as I've re-evaluated and changed designs along the way, but where I'm at now, I should really just go and finish it.
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Top of the line checkering! Can’t recall if there will be any embellishments in the small squares. It will look great when the finish goes on.
Cheers Richard
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Dave,
Its the same as ploughing a field with hills and holes in it. More surface area on the concave bits so lines don't look straight!
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Hi and thanks for looking folks!
Jakob, that is not really procrastinating. You probably are thinking and planning and then when you do the job it comes out great. I am the same way. I control my anxiety about doing a challenging job by thinking and planning it out. That is why I am not particularly fast. I am not Mike Brooks or some of the other great makers who can plough through the work much faster.
dave
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Hi, and thank you all for showing interest and encouraging Maria. She had a rough year. It was made worse because just as she was asked to be a captain on the Siena equestrian team, she dismounted a horse and in the process tore her medial collateral ligament and partially tore her ACL in her left knee. She is on crutches pending surgery this week. She won't be riding for a while. She still can work in the shop so she is not cut off from everything she loves to do. She is back at school but will be back with me in April for a few days.
I got tired of fixing other people's messed up Brown Bess reproduction locks so I went back to finishing my English sporting rifle. I decided to start making the dots in the wrist checkering. I am hoping to make this a 2-step process where I previously used a 3-step process. In the past, I would mark each dot accurately with an awl, punch it deeper with a pin punch, and then remove wood from the hole with a tiny twist drill. If the hole is just punched there is risk that when filled with finish it will swell and partially disappear. The drill bit removes the compressed wood eliminating that problem. This time around, I am going to see if that wood really needs to go, so I am just marking the holes with an awl and then punching them. If that is not sufficient, I can always go back with a No. 1 twist drill and remove the wood.
Professional gun stock checkerers wait until the stock has finish on it and the coats cured hard before checkering. In our case, we checker the large early English style diamonds before finish is applied because they are not fragile and that allows us to fix mistakes. However, making the dots is a different story. We checker the stock, then apply stain and finish building up several coats. We let them dry and cure and then go back and make the holes. Like chipping away the diamond points on modern checkering, punching the holes risks chipping away a quadrant. Therefore, having them strengthened and hardened by cured finish is desirable. So after putting on coats of finish, I go back and clean up the checkering removing any finish clogging the main lines. I use my checkering file for this.
(https://i.ibb.co/1fJqPct9/bob-s-checkering-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pvrzMqB3)
(https://i.ibb.co/QF7fDcQK/bob-s-checkering-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zhWr65x4)
I am very careful doing this as the wood with finish mixed in clogs the file quickly and you have to clean it often to avoid having it slip out of the line. Next I use the 60 degree Gunline single line cutter to lightly clean up the minor lines.
(https://i.ibb.co/zTVNBVGf/bob-s-checkering-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FL4ny4g7)
Once that is done, I brush the checkering vigorously with a stiff tooth brush which burnishes the grooves. Then I make the dots. First, I located them accurately in the middle of each quadrant using a sharp awl.
(https://i.ibb.co/rRgvJTv5/bob-s-checkering-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S42JpWJV)
Then I use a flat ended punch made from a pin punch to make the hole larger. I tap the punch with a small ball peen hammer and count 4 strikes each time to keep the dots of equal size.
(https://i.ibb.co/BH2ydP4g/bob-s-checkering-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mr591BvH)
(https://i.ibb.co/dszf9xRC/bob-s-checkering-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/35LTXQn6)
(https://i.ibb.co/LDnSCTj2/bob-s-checkering-7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vCZ1JNyK)
Hopefully, that does it. If the holes swell and fill up with more finish, I will go back and twiddle a #1 wire drill in each hole to remove the wood.
dave
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Thanks for the tutorial Dave, especially how you make the dots…a thought hit me when I was reading this about using a pen type soldering iron with the ‘iron’ filed to a point like you have on the awl and using it to burn a small hole. The ‘burn’ would have a nice contrast to the surrounding wood I think. Sorry to hear about Maria’s accident, please wish her well for me.
Thanks Richard
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Hi and thanks for looking folks!
Jakob, that is not really procrastinating. You probably are thinking and planning and then when you do the job it comes out great. I am the same way. I control my anxiety about doing a challenging job by thinking and planning it out. That is why I am not particularly fast. I am not Mike Brooks or some of the other great makers who can plough through the work much faster.
dave
Thanks Dave. This was enough to get me going on the last main piece on butt stock. So far, so good. (Except my thumb is now numb, as the wood there is dense!)
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Hi,
Getting the English sporting rifle done. I am almost finished with the engraving. It all is closely inspired by guns made by John Twigg.
(https://i.ibb.co/HDJGKvPv/bob-s-butt-plate-engraving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vxtLc5d5)
(https://i.ibb.co/Gf5PypVt/bobs-standing-breech-engraving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8n78qsjd)
(https://i.ibb.co/XrJvwPXB/bob-s-wrist-plate.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
The stock needs more finish and then a final rubbing with rottenstone and linseed oil.
I am browning the barrel.
(https://i.ibb.co/v6VdcKK2/bob-s-barrel-browning.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nN61w55h)
I am using diluted (with water and alcohol) Wahkon Bay browning solution. The barrel was polished with sandpaper up to 1200 grit dipped in water. Then degreased and coated with browning. I use a Q-tip and make only one pass on each flat spreading the soluiton sparingly. Then wait 6 hours for rust and card it with a very soft stainless steel brushing wheel spinning at slow speed. After carding I rinse the barrel with scalding (not boiling) water, let dry, and then apply the next coat. I only let successive coats rust for 3-4 hours before carding. It will take about 15-20 cycles to give the barrel a translucent reddish brown with a nice satin sheen.
dave
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Dave,
I am utterly appalled by your level of craftsmanship or rather, the lack thereof. When I saw the pictures, I felt like almost vomiting, it was so poorly done. I think I need to cut the semester short and come back so I can give you some lessons on how to properly checker and engrave an English gun.
All my love,
Maria
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Dave,
I am utterly appalled by your level of craftsmanship or rather, the lack thereof. When I saw the pictures, I felt like almost vomiting, it was so poorly done. I think I need to cut the semester short and come back so I can give you some lessons on how to properly checker and engrave an English gun.
All my love,
Maria
I think I'll hide under my covers, lie in the fetal position and suck my thumb. ;)
dave
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That was good for a laugh.
Cheers Richard
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Hi Folks,
I had a great day in the shop. I am finally back to full strength and energy after a winter of one respiratory illness after another. I am almost finished engraving the late 1770's English sporting gun. I've had a bit of a hang up with the barrel browning. The 3 top flats by the breech up to the rear sight just would not brown evenly. I cleaned that area with sand paper and acetone but it still resists even browning. The rest of the barrel is beautiful. So I sanded those flats back again, polished them, degreased them, scrubbed them with lye, and started over. I can blend the touch up with the rest of the barrel. I am almost finished with engraving the trigger guard. This gun is kind of a transition piece from the older styles of English technology, architecture, and decoration to those that would carry on into the 19th century. That is reflected in the engraving. I used designs common during the previous 25 years and mixed them with designs evolving during the late 1770s and early 1780s. That includes the border on the trigger guard bow. The shield design comes from a Nock made gun from 1779. The bow motif is from an original Twigg gun from the same period.
(https://i.ibb.co/jP8vc9r4/bob-s-trigger-guard-engraving-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bM6gSjKd)
The forward finial on the guard is from an original early 19th century sporting gun because I had to use an L&R Hawken double set trigger and plate. It involved hiding the forward screw in the design. That screw anchors the front of the trigger guard and trigger plate as well as threads into the bottom of the standing breech. The owner wanted double set triggers so I had to work within that constraint. The result was that I could not fit perfectly authentic triggers to the gun. I had to improvise. This was my solution such that it fit the reshaped Hawken trigger plate but still looked like an 18th century design.
(https://i.ibb.co/wh187Jz9/bob-s-trigger-guard-engraving-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QvGhk8K2)
I fixed the set triggers. I hated the sloppy fit of the triggers to the plate and their wobbling. I discovered the problem was not that the slots in the trigger plate were too wide for the triggers, rather the holes in the triggers were larger than the pins anchoring them. In other words, sloppy fitting and machining. So I mounted spring steel pins that were the same diameter as the holes in the triggers. I had to drill the trigger plate for those pins. Problem solved. The triggers work like a fine watch. Folks, why do we tolerate this poor workmanship?
More to come.
dave
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Very nice engraving Dave. I enjoy seeing and getting inspiration from your work, thanks.
Cheers Richard
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Hi Folks,
It always is a bit of a conundrum when it comes to finishing metal on English guns during the late 1760s until the 1790s or so. Should metal parts be browned, rust blued, temper blued, charcoal blued, color case hardened or left bright? With the possible ( and I repeat, possible) exception of boiling browned parts to create rust bluing, all of those methods likely were used. On cheaper and military guns things were polished bright. However, I recently visited the collections at Fort Ticonderoga and looked at pattern 1770 carbines for Grenadiers, which had barrels that were clearly browned. Moreover, the pattern 1776 muzzleloading infantry rifle, which I also examined in detail at Fort Ti also had browned barrels. On good quality civilian guns browning was definitely becoming popular but iron and steel mounts were often blued. On the guns I've seen or examined in the hand, that bluing was mostly charcoal bluing of a very high quality. Rust bluing was popular in the 19th century but I've seen no evidence of it on 18th century guns I've examined. William Bailes is sometimes credited with first promoting colors from case hardening as a finish. I've also seen some guns with temper blued mounts but they rarely persist in that state because the blue is not very robust. Anyway, what to do with a 1779 rifle inspired by Twigg. It seems most of his iron mounts at the time were likely charcoal blued. When I extensively engrave mounts as I did on this gun, I hate to brown, blue, or case harden them because the engraving is largely obscured. Polishing them bright shows up the engraving. However, it seems most iron and steel mounted guns by Twigg at this time were blued so I kept with historical consistency. The owner being practical and a great shot will love the engraving but will prefer the glare reduction from browning the barrel and the rust resistance of the blued hardware. So I charcoal blued the mounts.
(https://i.ibb.co/C5CLptLZ/bob-s-blued-mounts-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFS07c0R)
(https://i.ibb.co/20h39nZ2/bob-s-blued-mounts-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NgC2vVTh)
This is right out of the Joe and John Manton playbook. First the parts are polished to a very high degree. I usually end the polishing with 1500 grit sand paper dipped in water. Next, I degrease the parts with acetone and handle them with nitrile gloves. They are placed in an aluminum baking pan and packed with bone and wood charcoal. The top of the pan is covered with aluminum foil. Then I heat them in my electric casting oven to 900 degrees F and heat soak them for 3 hours. I let them cool to where I can just barely handle them and rub them back vigorously with a rag dipped in rottenstone and linseed oil. After that, I degrease them again with acetone, pack them in the charcoal and heat soak them again. This usually takes 4-6 cycles to get an even and durable blue. After the last cycle I clean off the oil and rottenstone and then wax the parts with Renaissance Wax and buff them to a gloss. This requires patience and knowledge.
dave
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Again, its always a treat to view your work. Thanks for documenting it then sharing it. :)
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Thank you Smylee,
Over the years I monitor posts on the Gun Building forum to see what questions and topics come up. Then I try to fill in the blanks, methods or examples of things that don't get much coverage but may still be really useful to members. I do this also for my demos at the Kempton Gunmaker's Fair always trying to keep things fresh, relevant, and showing methods that I use for tasks that are not often described. Charcoal bluing hardware is one of those rarely described methods. I have the advantage of advice from one of the best antique firearm barrel and metal restorers in the business, Pete Mazur. He retired recently but during our discussions about the restoration of an original English fowler that we worked on together, he generously offered me some very valuable advice. My charcoal bluing procedure is close to his but with one glaring difference. Pete did not use temps above about 700 degrees. However, he was working with original iron and steel mounts. I found that with modern cast steel parts, 700 degrees did not impart a deep blue color reliably. Our cast steel parts are not the same as wrought iron or even vintage steel. So I spent a lot of time experimenting increasing the temperature until I decided 900 degrees was best for consistent results although 800 degrees could do the trick but it took longer. Anyway, the results are excellent and pretty durable. This is not temper bluing, which has little staying power. Charcoal bluing is robust and very beautiful when done correctly.
dave
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Hi,
Tidying up all the loose ends. The lock is finished. I case hardened all of the internal parts and the battery, lock plate, flint cock, and top jaw. I tempered them and left the temper colors.
(https://i.ibb.co/FqkpqQY8/Bob-s-lock-reworked-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DgPdgBMw)
The Davis Twigg lock required a lot of remedial work. Here it is at half cock.
(https://i.ibb.co/rf35qPsG/Bob-s-lock-reworked-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PzM1JpQZ)
On real Twigg locks, the jaws are perpendicular to the face of the battery at half cock and the flint cock has a more "hunkered down" or squat appearance. The tumbler is set too far back on the Davis lock to allow that. I bent the flint cock so it sits up a little higher and is angled back slightly at half cock. That way it over hangs the pan better when fired. One of the nice features having the cam for the battery roller on the feather spring is that it can be shaped to change the angle above the pan at which the pan cover snaps forward. By moving the apex of the hump forward a little, the pan cover snaps open at about 30 degrees above the pan.
(https://i.ibb.co/ymXTmNHN/Bob-s-lock-reworked-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/20y20FGF)
Here is how the lock looks on the inside. You can see the little hook in the front.
(https://i.ibb.co/LDdhQHHC/Bob-s-lock-reworked-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ng2n1bbL)
(https://i.ibb.co/KjMFTsww/Bob-s-lock-reworked-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rGC4Dpss)
(https://i.ibb.co/9H8gxV7X/Bob-s-lock-reworked-7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yFfPzYrT)
It now works nicely but you must put the flint in bevel down.
(https://i.ibb.co/JRDLBftb/Bob-s-lock-sparking.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y7H9RzQK)
The L&R Hawken set triggers required work. They were the only double sets that had triggers shaped like those on British sporting guns. All the others look Germanic. I replaced the cheap zinc plated screw that anchors the mainspring with one of better steel. I also made a flat trigger spring for the front trigger.
(https://i.ibb.co/1txc8395/Bob-s-set-triggers-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HfQZn0rs)
I drilled the plate for larger pin holes that matched the diameters of the holes in the triggers. There is no sideways slop anymore. I made a new larger set screw that has a robust head. Every thing got polished, hardened and tempered, and adjusted.
(https://i.ibb.co/tPnmGXNf/Bob-s-set-triggers-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3YVr3z8X)
(https://i.ibb.co/6RDGFh2G/Bob-s-set-triggers-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C5V4Qdq4)
I turned down a cow horn to make the ramrod tip. I drilled a 1/4" hole through the horn, turned a wooden dowel to a slight taper that fits in the hole and mounted it on the lather using a live center in the tail stock. I just used wood turning tools to shape it. It came out nicely.
(https://i.ibb.co/d41BD52J/bob-s-ramrod-tip-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wvqnf2yp)
(https://i.ibb.co/6pF4nTt/bob-s-ramrod-tip-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8R9jKfx)
Finally, I reshaped the cast double leaf rear sight. It is ready for bluing.
(https://i.ibb.co/BKHQBks5/Bob-s-rear-sight-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mFr24pzV)
A good day's work.
dave
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Hi,
My 1770s English rifle is done. It is not a copy of any gun but is heavily inspired by the pair of rifles made by Twigg for the Earl of Alyesford in 1779. The 54 caliber 31" barrel is hand rifled by Hugh Toenjes. It is fitted with a standing breech by Rice. The mounts are charcoal blued steel and the lock is a Davis Twigg lock that I essentially rebuilt. The set triggers are L&R Hawken triggers, which I also reworked heavily. The stock is black walnut stained and finished to look like English walnut. The finish is Sutherland-Welles polymerized tung oil. I used their high gloss sheen but diluted it 25% with turpentine, which lowers the gloss a lot. The carving and engraving is copied from several Twigg guns. I will shoot it out on my range the first decent day we have coming up.
(https://i.ibb.co/fzL0bBZ7/Bob-s-finished-rifle-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0RvJk813)
(https://i.ibb.co/nMQ11RWS/Bob-s-finished-rifle-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B2T66w1R)
(https://i.ibb.co/BHtnSmYG/Bob-s-finished-rifle-8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4w715c02)
(https://i.ibb.co/nN2rBtNN/Bob-s-finished-rifle-11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S4TNcG44)
(https://i.ibb.co/NgQqgC7f/Bob-s-finished-rifle-15.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LDbyDRvB)
(https://i.ibb.co/sv193xvK/Bob-s-finished-rifle-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5WjhcpWr)
(https://i.ibb.co/5hvMFpwn/Bob-s-finished-rifle-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jkG6R0sW)
(https://i.ibb.co/7xNTz9yC/Bob-s-finished-rifle-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PszbYSCj)
(https://i.ibb.co/mVVzWx3K/Bob-s-finished-rifle-9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yccsj3rC)
(https://i.ibb.co/m59645DK/Bob-s-finished-rifle-10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SwtRBwsg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Sw3jSs5Q/Bob-s-finished-rifle-14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3mC3Kr4f)
(https://i.ibb.co/0RtwPNrJ/Bob-s-finished-rifle-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Rky5LncH)
(https://i.ibb.co/8nQG364d/Bob-s-finished-rifle-16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y4VJ9pTy)
(https://i.ibb.co/R4TfWhGz/Bob-s-finished-rifle-17.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dJ4FybsG)
(https://i.ibb.co/BK51pSsQ/Bob-s-finished-rifle-18.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jZPpN14Q)
dave
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Looks amazing Dave!
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Beautiful!
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Heart-felt sadness hearing of Maria's ligament trouble. I tore all 4 wrestling in high school - bloody nasty, but that was almost 60 years ago now. The medical profession might be better at repairing those now.
Best wishes young lady! ;)
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My left arm has been a bother for a long time with a sore tendon and heat is applied as a temporary fix,
The Davis Twigg lock is a good one for a mechanism upgrade and I did 10 or 12 of them .The last one went
to South Africa.I suppose they worked but no comments have been seen or heard except from someone who had a high opinion of the custom mechanism which is appreciated.Can anyone post a picture of a lock using
my internal parts?
Bob Roller
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Lovely work Dave!
The only part that makes me look twice is the double triggers that you had no choice but to fit, but you have done a Fantastic job fitting them in the beautifully bowed guard!
Congrats on a wonderful job!
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Hi Folks,
Thank you all for looking and commenting. Maria is home for the summer and working full time in the Braintree Hill shop. I am really excited and proud to post this. Maria is finishing her officer's fusil. It was originally rifled but when the original owner dropped out, we are having Bob Hoyt ream the bore smooth to either 0.66 caliber or 0.69 caliber. We prefer the larger bore but left the decision up to Bob depending on barrel wall thickness. The rifled 0.62 caliber barrel was very heavy but well balanced. The smooth barrel will be much lighter and better suited to the new owner. He portrays loyalist Sir John Johnson and patriot general Phillip Schuyler at living history events. The high end officer's fusil is perfect for him. Maria started putting details into the carving around the tang of the standing breech. It is a bit challenging because the black walnut has very tough grain issues. You cannot cut toward the breech or the chisel will hog out a big chip. You can only carve toward the butt. Regardless, the rolling rococo shell, appropriate for the 1770s, is coming out well. It still needs some smoothing and cleaning up but she is doing a great job.
(https://i.ibb.co/1tXX5GjD/tang-carving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tT22tpF7)
The gun has a wrist plate copied from an original fowler in my possession. We cast it in fine silver using the Delft clay casting system.
(https://i.ibb.co/fdv3h463/casting-wrist-plate-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b5J4Szw4)
She then had to clean up and file the edges and sculpt the details and polish the plate. It involved chiseling with die sinker's chisels, engraving, smoothing with stones and abrasives, and stippling deep relief with a single point punch. I would get Maria started for each task and then let her go. She created a masterpiece.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y7GTkf4D/finished-wrist-plate.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
dave
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Great work!
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Be glad you have her.TODAY,I went to the shop to finish a double set trigger and found out that That reaching up to smack the collet draw bar is now a painful movement to change the end mill aggravates an already painful shoulder joint condition.I have done little since 2019 but now it will be less.I hoped to revive the small SMR types and the long bar Hawken style but to quote Bob Dylan,it's all over now baby blue and I do thank all here who bought them..
Bob Roller
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Thanks for looking folks and the encouragement,
Maria inlet the wrist plate with a little help from me when needed. It is a complicated design more challenging than she has done before. It came out almost perfect.
(https://i.ibb.co/jvKSHLVw/finished-wrist-plate-inlet.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/fdVZRz62/finished-wrist-plate-inlet-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/60cGh79m)
We then drilled it for the anchoring bolt which passes through the stock and is hidden under the trigger guard.
(https://i.ibb.co/dw9zm7CD/finished-wrist-plate-inlet-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XrBvYV0t)
That is how good quality wrist plates were secured on British guns. They usually were not pinned from the top although a few were mostly (not always) on cheaper grade guns.
The next step was finishing the details on the stock prior to staining. Here Maria is doing the final details on the carving around the standing breech using low angle light which illuminates the rough spots.
(https://i.ibb.co/JwZfGnTB/maria-carving-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v697T1Ww)
(https://i.ibb.co/ycL9k212/maria-carving-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q3bSg6f6)
Note the precise inletting in the lock mortise. If you are trying to reproduce good English quality, you have to pay attention to the details and live up to a high standard of work or you won't achieve that goal. We are ready for initial staining of the stock. The wood is American black walnut but must look like English walnut in the end. We found and used a very dense blank of black walnut with fabulous flame figure in the butt. The first coloring task is to stain it with pure yellow aniline dye dissolved in water. The yellow dye kills the cold purple brown common to black walnut and warms it up more like English walnut. Next we will use alkanet root stain infused in turpentine and then finish tinted with LMF's walnut stain.
(https://i.ibb.co/KTX4mh5/stock-staining-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fj26QFX)
(https://i.ibb.co/mFch5W26/stock-staining-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vvjL4nTZ)
This will be a great gun when finished.
dave
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Stunning already.
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Dave,
Maria has done a fantastic job on this gun.
The wood carving is So Clean and perfect. The shell is stunning.
Congrats to you the teacher and Maria the student. She is miles ahead of a lot of us already!
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Oh YES. Every thing is so crisp and clean. Dave, as you noted the inside lock in letting is so English in quality I'm curious if she burnished any of it after in letting? Great work all around. :)
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Very nice work indeed! The shell carving is beautiful, with a fullness not often seen.
Richard
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Your work, and hers, is stunning. Well done to both of you!
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Maria is a treasure.Skill and beauty and a good level of interest and that's as rare as a football bat.
Bob Roller
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Maria is a treasure.Skill and beauty and a good level of interest and that's as rare as a football bat.
Bob Roller
And yet fortunately, both do exist.
(https://i.ibb.co/JFFPX8D8/babe-ruth-playing-football-bat-39387675-jpg.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Hi,
We are busy. I have another English sporting gun in the works. This time based on John Manton from the early 1800s. It will use a Chambers late Ketland lock, which I remodeled the exterior to remove it from the export lock category to a first quality lock but without the sliding safety. I have to cut the ovalu border and reshape the flint cock. The owner wants a single set trigger although I am not a fan of those. I have to think on that. The owner is from Quebec and is a very fine target shooter and hunter. It has been a fascinating journey watching him navigate the Canadian regulations. It will be half stocked with a steel rib and the stock is a fantastic blank of figured maple. Most British guns were stocked in English walnut but a few, including some by John Manton, had figured maple stocks. It will have a Rice barrel mounted with a chambered breech with a hook and tang. The mounts will all be engraved and charcoal blued.
Maria is working on her officer's fusil. The barrel is with Bob Hoyt to get rebored smooth and at least 0.66" caliber. She is working on the wrist checkering. The current task is to punch the dots into the checkering diamonds. The first step is marking the location of the holes with an awl and then punching the dots with a tapered punch. Each punch has to be the same so she counts the number of taps (4) with the chasing hammer so each hole is the same diameter. It is coming out great.
(https://i.ibb.co/4g5S8L1D/maria-checkering-9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2YfMvrZL)
(https://i.ibb.co/GQpnKDC8/maria-checkering-10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r20FCh5z)
I am helping her with engraving the lock. We are reproducing the engraving original to this Griffin lock and it is coming out well. The photos don't do it justice because of the lighting. It will be very attractive and historically correct.
(https://i.ibb.co/wrcxB407/lock-engraving-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qFJP7pyC)
(https://i.ibb.co/PZQ8PhWP/lock-engraving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tMX5vs2v)
Note the "wild boar" head engraved on the tail. In our interview with Ethan Yazel, we discussed engraving and carving real animals versus 18th century renditions of animals. Most of the British engravers never saw the animals they had to engrave and their work shows it. So the challenge becomes, do you engrave a modern image or and 18th century image? Historical integrity is crucial on this gun so the animal looks like a cross between a fish, horse, and a hairy pig, and that's the way it was.
dave
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The Lion & Lamb rifle wouldn't be near as appealing if the rendition of the lion looked like a realistic representation of a lion.
(https://i.ibb.co/B5BCxZn8/Lion-and-Lamb.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Hi Karl,
Thank you for that. You are exactly right. The lock is now ready for case hardening. I think Maria will leave it polished bright after heat treating rather than temper bluing. The lock is TRS series 662 Griffin fowler lock that we modified quite a bit. We shortened the nose of the lock plate and lengthened the trigger bar on the sear. The short bar was clearly meant for a skinny gun so we extended it with welded steel to allow for the thicker wrist of this gun. The cast mainspring had a deep crack in the bend so we forged a replacement. Virtually all of the cast in engraving was redone. For that I helped Maria. Cleaning up the lock plate and flattening it inside and out meant meant losing a lot of the cast in engraving. Same with cleaning up the flint cock and battery. We filed, sanded and polished the components flat leaving just the traces of the old engraving. Then we re-engraved them and added Maria's name. It will be an excellent lock fully up to the English standards of the time for function and decoration for a 1st quality lock.
(https://i.ibb.co/vpqw67b/lock-engraving-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wVg0F9T)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1MGSrLD/lock-engraving-4.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/nNcwYpJn/lock-engraving-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XrsWKHR3)
Despite starting another English sporting rifle, I am also working on a Dutch musket for Matt Keagle, the senior curator at Fort Ticonderoga. That will be an interesting project because I know so little about Dutch muskets and their documentation as to styles, features, dates of manufacture, and export to America is very poor. I have the appropriate references and I will tease it out by examining originals. They were used by Americans in fairly large numbers both during the F&I war and the Rev War.
dave
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Hi Dave! Are you planning on documenting your build of the English Sporting Rifle. I and I’m sure many others would enjoy following and learning if you do.
Thanks Richard
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The Chambers Late Ketland is ideal for a custom mechanism with a linked mainspring and I have used it for several lock projects in the past.
Another good one is the R.E.Davis Twigg..and I made a "3 pin"mechanism for these and no complaints yet.I was told that some of these are being used for a display but have no idea as to the veracity of these reports.
Bob Roller
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Hi,
I helped Maria with the side plate. I designed and cut it. It looks very 18th century as it is supposed to.
(https://i.ibb.co/HL0CZMfH/engraved-side-plate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p6gQqsBL)
dave
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Great scene!
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Hi,
I did some more engraving to help Maria with her fancy officer's fusil. The owner wanted thistles and tulips engraved somewhere on the gun (he is Scottish and Dutch). I engraved them on the butt plate.
(https://i.ibb.co/JR2xvkwQ/engraved-butt-plate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yn5h6scS)
It all looks very 18th century English. I also engraved the standing breech.
(https://i.ibb.co/gZY1JX0b/engraved-standing-breech.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jktKDxC9)
Again it all looks like it should for the time.
dave
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Very pleasing.
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Agreed, great design and execution.
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Beautiful work by both of you.
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Maria's signature is SO beautifully mastered as-is the rest of her engraving. Bravo! :o 8) ;D
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Dave,
Do you really think this engraving is representative of even mid grade eighteenth century English work? Come on…. You need to study more.
I’d be happy to defend my statements with original work.
A man on a fast horse would think it looks okay, but when you start to look at details it falls apart.
I believe this is the truth. Is it okay to post?
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Um it is a custom order for customer and the want fancy engraving per the notes on the 29th. I thought if the customer is paying they are always right. Unless it is a mass produced item and that is any item not just a lock, stock and barrel.
But what do I know I am a lefty that is looked down upon by many.
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Dave,
Do you really think this engraving is representative of even mid grade eighteenth century English work? Come on…. You need to study more.
I’d be happy to defend my statements with original work.
A man on a fast horse would think it looks okay, but when you start to look at details it falls apart.
I believe this is the truth. Is it okay to post?
Hi Jim,
It is exactly up to snuff based on 18th century work. You need to study more. I also note this comment came from you after I posted a note asking why your lock springs are so heavy?
dave
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You are correct to note this came after your comment. I try to play nice until others chose not to. I’d been holding my tongue on this and decided not to after the latest shot from you. And yes, there have been many. So would you like me to present my case?
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Dave,
Do you really think this engraving is representative of even mid grade eighteenth century English work? Come on…. You need to study more.
I’d be happy to defend my statements with original work.
A man on a fast horse would think it looks okay, but when you start to look at details it falls apart.
I believe this is the truth. Is it okay to post?
Good Evening Mr. Kibler
First, I believe you should be directly talking to the person(s) who designed the engraving and that would be John Twigg and myself.
Page 42 plate 15 in Keith Neal and David Back's book "Great British Gunmakers" will bring you to the original engraving of the barrel tang which is on the pair of rifles by John Twigg for the Earl of Aylesford around 1779. I believe them to be mounted in either iron or steel. Now, page 43 plate 18 will bring you to the engraving of the buttplate we copied and then slightly altered to meet the desires of my customer. The original pictured is of the highest quality by John Twigg and mounted in silver again for the Earl of Aylesford in 1779. The inspiration for the sideplate comes from plate 412 in the same book this one by John Lett in 1775, again slightly altered to fit the desires of my customer but still keeping the historic context in mind with the additions to the sideplate coming from various engravings of the time.
I believe you need to study more mid to high quality English work.
Best,
Maria Gray
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Ha! You come to the rescue. I’ll be happy to put together a presentation on a variety grades of English work and compare how this stacks up.
A few points in general…. As mentioned, the overall composition isn’t bad but the engraving is sloppy. There is a difference between the looseness of good English work and sloppiness.
The shape of engraving cuts are also of paramount importance in English work. This certainly hasn’t been captured in this work.
Finally overall scroll shape and form is lacking in some areas. In my opinion of course.
As mentioned, looking at this fast it looks okay, but slow down and it falls apart when compared to standards followed by decent English work.
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Dave always a pleasure to see you at Kempton. I learned a lot from your lectures. Maria is in great hands under your Master tutelage. Passing things on to the next generation is at the core of this hobby/art.
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Miss Gray, it has been a great pleasure to watch your work over the past few years. Brings joy to this old heart to see the progress you have made.
You, young lady, are a great gunsmith!
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I think Kiblers comments should be deleted from this thread!
He posted here with a chip on his shoulder and a singular intent to get even.
This forum is not the place for this sort of petty BS!
John
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JTR,
I'm sorry, but I think you are mistaken in your assesment. Here's how it worked...
I saw this days ago and in my mind didn't agree with the quality level "declarations". Why would I take issue? Because I love and and appreciate English work, engraving included. I've studied it in detail and feel I have a very good grasp of it. Consider a comparison for you... A fellow comes out and makes a longrifle and states it matches the work of your favorite maker. I'm sure you have one since you've collected some great guns. You'd probably think in your head "this isn't so" and it might rub you a bit.
Well, as I said I try not to give unsolicited opinions, but when provoked enough times I will. The street goes two ways. There has been a history of certain people piling on or trying to take shots at me and our business. Not well meaning suggestions, but shots.
After a while holding my tongue becomes too much and then I'm more than willing to play their game. I don't subscribe to just turning the other cheek.
Like it or not, that's the story. If you want more details, PM me and I'll gladly expand on things.
Mods,
You won't hurt my feelings if you want to delete this or anything else in this thread.
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This has been a very enjoyable thread to read and learn from.
Unfortunately it seems to be in the process of being hijacked by someone for spite.
I actually am not surprised, unfortunately.
Thanks Dave and Maria for taking so much time to document and help teach us how you go about your wonderful work!
I, for one, have followed and learned a lot, and think my own work (as crude as it is) has really benefited from your tutorials.
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Simply beautiful work by both of you.
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Hi Folks,
Thank you for the support. More will be coming soon. I don't mind Jim's comments. Somehow he feels persecuted by whom I don't know. Anyway, I will be posting more of our British work. It looks like we are finally getting TRS parts for Brown Besses so I'll be showing that as well as I am beginning an early 18th century English sporting gun modeled after John Manton. There are lots of little nuances that I will be sharing. Finally, I am hoping to get started on another set of British dueling pistols if I can get the lock parts I need. I would really like to see Chris Laubach make a nice English pistol lock. That would be the ticket. I will be giving a seminar on building British dueling pistols at Kempton. I hope to see you there.
More to come.
dave
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I have a Brown Bess (the 542B parts set) on order from TRS and they think it will be filled in the next month or so (sounds like they have a few stocks to cut!). Will be trying to look at pics of extant samples so I can get it reasonably close. I have no skill as yet as a builder but one must start somewhere! Thanks for this great thread.
Dr Phil
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This is a guild forum populated with a bunch of experienced apprentices and folks who are self taught via books. Their teachers taught them well or they studied books from masters. These folks are always right because they did the work. As a result they are always right never wrong and anyone who challenges them is wrong. Sometimes they Even come on here looking for a fight. Most will not admit there are many schools of thought and areas of the world along with time periods. They are to stubborn to admit anyone else could possibly have a different answer that is correct. That is why they resort to name calling or disparaging remarks.
Me i am a lefty wit two right thumbs and this forum is not for me.
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There are also different levels of craftmanship to consider, even in British and French gunmaking. I don't think it's correct to hold a beginning gunmaker to the same standards as the high art British makers, especially when they are "copying" a different type or class of engraving. There are other parts of the fowler that don't meet the highest class of gunmaking either, but that's not the point of this discussion. Clearly for a first effort this is an outstanding fowler.
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Maria and Dave, enjoyed the progress pics and informative write ups. Outstanding work.