AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Story on January 30, 2025, 07:02:45 PM

Title: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on January 30, 2025, 07:02:45 PM
 Howdy, all.

Buddy has this head-scratcher.
No visible markings on the lockplate and/or barrel at this time.
He will not have rifle back in hand till the 10th o' Feb, so what questions/ request for additional pics will the hive-mind require?

1) Possible early (due to the drum bolster) PA/KY rifle set up for a false muzzle
(https://i.imgur.com/BmTkpvx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5h8hwdT.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jMZmIMn.jpg)

2) Patch box has not been opened yet.
(https://i.imgur.com/sbrjBEw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/d9o8LP2.jpg)

Thanks in advance for any light y'all can shed on this rifle.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: JTR on January 30, 2025, 07:33:50 PM
Not my area of interest, but looks similar to a New York style target rifle.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on January 30, 2025, 07:43:20 PM
Not my area of interest, but looks similar to a New York style target rifle.

Thanks! Interesting observation
New York Target Rifle
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=78334.0
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: 120RIR on January 30, 2025, 09:48:16 PM
New York - that was my first reaction as well!
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Daryl on January 30, 2025, 10:09:13 PM
Appears to be "set up" for a guide bullet starter, not a false muzzle. If for a false muzzle, the muzzle's top surface would be drilled for the locating
holes for the pins of the false muzzle. A false muzzle is made from a section of the muzzle itself, drilled before cutting off, so the rifling of the bore
lines up with the rifling inside the false muzzle - seems to me.
A guide bullet starter simply has a round cavity that fits over the round turned muzzle. Back in the percussion era, Remington used to make and sell
such barrels to gun makers. Some gun makers of course, made their own, I would expect.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: rich pierce on January 30, 2025, 10:41:42 PM
Probably set up to shoot a bullet, not a ball. Could be 1840-1870. Hard to say.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Hungry Horse on January 30, 2025, 11:03:37 PM
If you scroll down to Bigskyrimblers post from a few days ago you will see another gun from New York with the same relief on its muzzle for a bullet starter.

Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on January 31, 2025, 12:14:55 AM
Probably set up to shoot a bullet, not a ball. Could be 1840-1870. Hard to say.

What would be an indicator(s) of that?
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on January 31, 2025, 12:17:12 AM
If you scroll down to Bigskyrimblers post from a few days ago you will see another gun from New York with the same relief on its muzzle for a bullet starter.

Hungry Horse

That'd be this thread https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=83345.0
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on January 31, 2025, 12:17:54 AM
Appears to be "set up" for a guide bullet starter, not a false muzzle. If for a false muzzle, the muzzle's top surface would be drilled for the locating
holes for the pins of the false muzzle. A false muzzle is made from a section of the muzzle itself, drilled before cutting off, so the rifling of the bore
lines up with the rifling inside the false muzzle - seems to me.
A guide bullet starter simply has a round cavity that fits over the round turned muzzle. Back in the percussion era, Remington used to make and sell
such barrels to gun makers. Some gun makers of course, made their own, I would expect.

Thanks, good spot.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Tanselman on January 31, 2025, 01:43:57 AM
Good chance it's New York, but with that little oval lock bolt washer, I'd say keep New England open as a possibility. Can you tell it the stock wood is cherry or maple?

Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on January 31, 2025, 05:44:13 AM
Can you tell it the stock wood is cherry or maple?

That'll be one of the questions for after February 10th, along with

bore diameter

anything written inside the patch box

anything on the underside of the barrel

what else?


For now, this enhanced pic of the grain will have to do on the cherry/walnut question.
(https://i.imgur.com/NKGvqIz.jpg)
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: JV Puleo on January 31, 2025, 06:06:49 AM
I'm certain Daryl is right about the muzzle. It's turned to accept a bullet starter. This if fairly common on NY rifles and on any that were intended for both target shooting and hunting.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on January 31, 2025, 03:57:03 PM
I'm certain Daryl is right about the muzzle. It's turned to accept a bullet starter. This if fairly common on NY rifles and on any that were intended for both target shooting and hunting.

New England as well?
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: JV Puleo on January 31, 2025, 07:07:18 PM
Absolutely...I should have said NE and NY.

When you see the gun look and see if it's fitted for two different sights. I've had several of these over the years and they are often fitted with a sight on the barrel for hunting and a tang site for target shooting.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: jmf on January 31, 2025, 10:51:32 PM
Can you tell it the stock wood is cherry or maple?

That'll be one of the questions for after February 10th, along with

bore diameter

anything written inside the patch box

anything on the underside of the barrel

what else?


For now, this enhanced pic of the grain will have to do on the cherry/walnut question.
(https://i.imgur.com/NKGvqIz.jpg)
This stock looks like cherry, unless somebody has scribed lines across it.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Curt J on February 03, 2025, 12:17:49 AM
Having the muzzle turned for a guide bullet starter is not a regional thing. I just counted 28 rifles on my wall that are turned for a guide bullet starter, all of them by various Illinois makers. This count did not include percussion schuetzen rifles, which would add eight more. There is such a variation in diameter, length of turned section, decoration and more, that I question whether any of them came from a barrel blank supplier (Remington, Hitchcock & Muzzy, etc.) already turned. There would have been no need for it unless the rifle was intended to fire some type of bullet (usually a picket bullet) that requred it. These rifles usually have  faster twist rifling, sometimes gain-twist, to stabilize a longer projectile. Likewise, I do not believe that many of these barrels were purchased from a supplier with rifling already in them. The rate of twist, number of grooves, style of lands and grooves, etc. is all over the map, as is bore diameter. Many of these local gunsmiths' claim to fame was that their rifling was superior to that of the gunsmith in the next town over, and more accurate.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Daryl on February 03, 2025, 10:11:15 PM
There is a picture in one of my "Firearms of the American West", of the San Francisco Rifle Club - 1850's I think, and most all of the cap lock rifles in the picture,
have turned muzzles for the "guide bullet starters".
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on February 04, 2025, 11:42:00 PM
Thanks all for the continued input.

Still about a week away from additional photos and information.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on February 19, 2025, 07:08:50 AM
For those following alone
Weather has gotten in the way of getting up to Greenbay .
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Bob Roller on February 19, 2025, 04:45:26 PM
Probably set up to shoot a bullet, not a ball. Could be 1840-1870. Hard to say.

What would be an indicator(s) of that?
Run a patch down the bore like you were cleaning it and it it has been made for a bullet it will have several turns that are noticeable,
A slow twist will be equally observable.
Bob Roller 
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Daryl on February 21, 2025, 01:28:40 AM
Maybe, Bob. Seems to me a lot of picket rifles had 30" to 48" rates of twist.
Title: Re: Mystery Longrifle with a false muzzle.
Post by: Story on March 02, 2025, 05:35:24 AM
Anyone recognize these markings?

(https://i.imgur.com/jzmMcUA.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dNcw88r.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TxGyTr0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LbaOlhx.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/w5WAB8C.jpg)