AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: gibster on February 10, 2025, 06:30:22 PM
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It's been a little while since I have seen a Southern Mountain Rifle show up on the forum so I figured I would hopefully start a new trend. I've had this rifle for a while and it is what some would probably call a poor boy. No butt plate or entry thimble. It had been re-converted to flint sometime before I bought it. The barrel has been shortened twice in it's working life. It shows quite a bit of saddle wear as it is worn through the fore end and you can see the ram rod. The rifle isn't signed, so no idea who made it. Let me know your thoughts on where you think it may have been made and why you came to that conclusion. I have thought SW Va. but have been told it could be an early Deep River School rifle as well from NC. You can click on the pictures to enlarge them.
I know that there are other SMR rifles out there. Rifles like this are what trips my trigger so to speak. So let's see them.
(https://i.ibb.co/CLQ9dL9/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SSBmTSm)
(https://i.ibb.co/XZgSnLk5/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xS0JnL8g)
(https://i.ibb.co/NgM042kD/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Psd2SGbX)
(https://i.ibb.co/whSGtwJs/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k24bZ931)
(https://i.ibb.co/pYjYZWw/5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CRKRvJ8)
(https://i.ibb.co/R4ZC2xWh/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5xt5TNVY)
(https://i.ibb.co/0VXJWZ4q/7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LhPpq6jS)
(https://i.ibb.co/WWcG71MQ/8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y7tPJG16)
(https://i.ibb.co/tppbxRsW/9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3mm0MKNL)
(https://i.ibb.co/LzS8VPSc/10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/99nNQvn1)
(https://i.ibb.co/yFzfCjPy/11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZzQLrDX8)
(https://i.ibb.co/j9YJDYpd/12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rKhdHhWg)
(https://i.ibb.co/svSQDhgx/13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/272PLwFV)
(https://i.ibb.co/G37hyHdj/14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z1dZ52fC)
(https://i.ibb.co/j9hJT4g3/15.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qLBJd1km)
(https://i.ibb.co/0yPWFQcX/16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jk7xWHT5)
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Nice rifle, and great pictures as well!
I have a couple and will try to get some decent pics to post.
John
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8) 8)
(https://i.ibb.co/5gv03Y4y/182809145-4223045781079492-8802536040264857155-n-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zTbMg8xY)
(https://i.ibb.co/3YNm0p8B/183295490-4223045687746168-7117824520950952437-n-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rf62ZxL4)
.... Gettin' a little anxious for the Knoxville show, aren't we Eric...??? ... HaHaHa... My favorite guns too....!!! ... I haven't seen a new discovery in a while myself... however,... here are a few from the show a couple years back... all Lawing rifles... I think you had one or two in this group, and I had a Wm. Lawing in there.. all in all we had 12 Lawing rifles in the same room at once.... Oh, yeah... I did see a nice Phillip Gillespie rifle a while back, but couldn't talk the owner out of it, and forgot to take photos... !!!... see you in Knoxville town in a couple months... !! ... regards,... Cades Cove Fiddler...
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Yup, you caught me. I am getting a little anxious for the Knoxville show. I remember seeing all those Lawing rifles together. That was a sight to behold. I still have the 2 that I are in the pictures. I did manage to pick up a Wm. Beals since we have seen each other. I think you will like it. I'll bring it to the show. But it will come back home with me afterwards.
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Gibster be careful ole C.C.F. has a friend ( ? ) that can work magic on getting him a gun he likes...
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;) ;)... HaHaHa... see what you can do, Mike... !!!
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Here are some. Hope to go to that show.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52005845385_07a6eeb94d_h.jpg)
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Eric,I was told this one is from the Piedmont area of Nortn Carolina.
(https://i.ibb.co/209h7FKL/IMG-1501.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q7gQFJmq)
(https://i.ibb.co/zW9tTsyw/IMG-1502.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8nvQLMWV)
(https://i.ibb.co/hRTjc746/IMG-1934.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SXZ8csMj)
(https://i.ibb.co/Dg4WV5fq/IMG-1933.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wpn5xgvT)
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AZ Shot - hose are some nice rifles. What is the 3rd one down from the top?
Jim - Your rifle has some similarities to mine. They could both be from the Deep River School in NC. There were several good makers there. The guard on mine has a pretty long bow which is where I keep coming back to a possible Virginia rifle. But who knows. Maybe Gerald will chime in and give his opinion. He's forgotten more than I will ever know on southern rifles.
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Hi Gibster,
It's this one here: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69419.0
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Hi Gibster,
Thank you for posting photos of your wonderful poor-boy rifle. I love the architecture and lines of this old rifle. It was not fancy, but had style and got the job done.
Fortunately, I live in what Bill Ivey termed the "Early Deep River School" in his book. I own three early Guilford County rifles from this school.
When I look for Longrifles from this school I look for the lower incised carved lines from the butt plate to the trigger guard. This is usually repeated all the way out the forestock from the ramrod entry pipe to the nose cap.
Here are some photos of my "Early Deep River School" longrifle signed by David Grose.
(https://i.ibb.co/s9s3pntN/DSC04430.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7tryxPbZ)
Here is the lower butt stock.
(https://i.ibb.co/Bk2tTVJ/PICT0019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XHxbFZP)
Here is the forestock.
(https://i.ibb.co/Rpkyd5zX/PICT0006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8DLcth6y)
Here is a wonderful longrifle by Craft Jackson. This longrifle has many wonderful features that no other rifle from this school I have seen.
(https://i.ibb.co/JjkfdDP8/DSC04435.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XxJh4cT6)
(https://i.ibb.co/0p3PYMNY/PICT0049.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6c56DPhD)
Here is the forestock.
(https://i.ibb.co/HDC5LMP5/PICT0060.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vxh0Crd0)
Gadroon engraving on top of the butt plate.
(https://i.ibb.co/C5KZ2jbt/PICT0094.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3ymqzxps)
Gadroon engraving on the ramrod pipes and chevrons on the nose cap.
(https://i.ibb.co/21Px1wkf/PICT0061.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DHkhHNRS)
Last but not least, is the rifle I attribute to Matthew Osborne. He moved to Centre Meeting House from Pennsylvania in 1753. This was right on the Guilford - Randolph County line, right in the middle of the Early Deep River School. He made longrifles for his Quaker neighbors. In 1781, he learned that three of his neighbors had used the rifles he made for them at the Battle of Guilford Court House. According to the Centre Meeting House church minutes, he repurchased those three rifles and broke the stocks against a tree. He died in 1783 and is buried at the church.
Bill Ivey and I agree this is the oldest known example from the "Early Deep River School."
(https://i.ibb.co/JjkfdDP8/DSC04435.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XxJh4cT6)
It is the oldest rifle in my collection.
(https://i.ibb.co/9HMHPbqv/DSC04480.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pjmjqf3P)
Here is the cheek-rest side with relief carving.
(https://i.ibb.co/ccnVRVQH/DSC03285.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tMrFnFDt)
These are the features I look for on a longrifle from this school. Thanks for posting your rifle. I hope to see you in Knoxville.
Thanks,
Michael
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Those are some great rifles Michael. Thanks for posting them. Great history with the Matthew Osbourn rifle. Looking forward to seeing you in Knoxville.
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Might not be the place, but since we are discussing SMRs here...
Does anybody have or know of rifles made in the Sumner County, TN area?
I have ancestry out of that area and am always curious to see what the rifles could've looked like that they carried!
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Michael,
Are there any signed Matthew Osborne rifles in collectors' circles that help support the Osborne attribution? The gun has always seemed to me like it might be an early Jacob Crider based on its stock architecture and cheekpiece, patchbox, plus somewhat strong separation between wrist and comb. The butt carving, while both have a large central "C" scroll, is different, but 20 years can change some details in a gunsmith's work. Just curious, since I've always wondered about the rifle attributed to Osborne, and wondered if not a Crider, then who?
Shelby Gallien
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Gibster, That's a great rifle. How long is the barrel now? and how long do you think it was before being cut?
Thanks.
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Thanks Whetrock. The current length of the barrel is 45 1/8". Based on where the original barrel pins were and where they are now, it was about 1 3/4" longer. So originally, it looks to have had about a 47" barrel.
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I’m trying to post some photos of a rifle I found yesterday, but can’t seem to get them to load. Is anyone else having difficulty with photos? I suspect this rifle was produced in North Carolina, hopefully I can get the photos loaded soon.
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I’m trying to post some photos of a rifle I found yesterday, but can’t seem to get them to load. Is anyone else having difficulty with photos? I suspect this rifle was produced in North Carolina, hopefully I can get the photos loaded soon.
Same problem for me. I tied to upload some pics last night, then again this morning, but no luck.
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Finally got these to load, any help on ID would be greatly appreciated. Barrel is about 42”, no entry thimble.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1G0rnXt/9-A46-E65-B-77-BE-4685-BA9-C-F82-E233075-AE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JFm9Tft0)
(https://i.ibb.co/JwzDkjy0/003-AE5-A1-BA25-4-AFF-98-B9-22-DF9-BF8-FFEA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q36ymvCz)
(https://i.ibb.co/SXGXYPxh/BA258-A39-1309-48-BC-924-B-5-E249764-FA4-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3yQy67sD)
(https://i.ibb.co/Tx0NQxdL/434-AF79-B-3-CE3-4260-A095-E2-D091-A20532.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pBKkHB5y)
(https://i.ibb.co/nM5hnYFB/78-CE2-F95-3515-4953-9-D19-B46-C92-C184-C6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ld24Jc3r)
(https://i.ibb.co/WW8Qgdf3/05-C69-F09-82-BE-48-C8-9-B93-0-B3-AB478-CA74.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DDcN56Qb)
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(https://i.ibb.co/2Q6grwr/78-C51029-FC97-4-AE9-964-E-F57621-E5-B645.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VZN2GdG)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jj2N5kjD/7940-E145-2471-450-D-B719-6-F593-F341331.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pjZgJXjY)
(https://i.ibb.co/mM7XMhS/E986-E7-DB-3-FA1-48-D1-844-F-F1084-E797-DFB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NHzmHW7)
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(https://i.ibb.co/RGwMQJGg/5-C4-B08-D2-412-D-4202-BB71-61-F922-D2-DF91.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wZmbp2Zd)
(https://i.ibb.co/gLWWtf4B/AF86-A40-F-14-B5-479-F-A33-B-47917-A4-B05-F6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tx00P7WF)
(https://i.ibb.co/6cZgcDHz/E4047404-254-D-4-C96-AD9-D-04-C8-C0-B37307.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9mvsmyb6)
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Nice looking rifle that looks to have survived in great shape. Can't help with the ID though.
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I give up! I have numerous rifles that fit in here but my images will not post.
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Chris - Don't give up. No idea what the problem is with posting pictures right now. I have seen a few of your posts in the past showing some great southern rifles and would enjoy seeing them again, and more. Sooner or later the issue with posting pictures will be resolved. Hope so anyway.
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Here is another rifle that I have the pleasure of being the caretaker of. I showed i to Dave Byrd shortly after I got it and he seemed to think that it was a Beals rifle. This one is still original flint with original barrel length.
(https://i.ibb.co/zWz3pGqx/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y4x5mpHQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/4n8R9Q8y/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xt1qP41v)
(https://i.ibb.co/ym3fXZ7H/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q75bfTty)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YgMVfdw/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x8Jg9R6y)
(https://i.ibb.co/yBYLDgC8/5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qFWbzm8R)
(https://i.ibb.co/WvfLG6sS/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0yrxmcQP)
(https://i.ibb.co/xtZ6xKjj/7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8Lk91n55)
(https://i.ibb.co/GQLF2kP2/8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1G5bqK2q)
(https://i.ibb.co/JWyDnkBh/9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sp68j3mB)
(https://i.ibb.co/xt6Qr5LF/10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NdKzGYCT)
(https://i.ibb.co/Vcn2BzPc/11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hJQD84tJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/YFDhgYzT/12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9kwWPzF3)
(https://i.ibb.co/kV2RwT7G/13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SDwhMgj6)
(https://i.ibb.co/gMJt0H4R/14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vxkLNgXj)
(https://i.ibb.co/jP8R5qT0/15.jpg) (https://ibb.co/21FN6RyV)
(https://i.ibb.co/ynxp3yPQ/16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFxk5NQK)
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Chris - Don't give up. No idea what the problem is with posting pictures right now. I have seen a few of your posts in the past showing some great southern rifles and would enjoy seeing them again, and more. Sooner or later the issue with posting pictures will be resolved. Hope so anyway.
OK, thanks.
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Posting pictures is working for me.
(https://i.ibb.co/DHD1Qgkj/IMG-3769.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q3MDpF92)
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I just posted pictures of another rifle as well with no issues.
Chris - If you want, I'll send you my email address and will try to upload them on this end. Worked fine for me a few minutes ago.
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I posted a pic a few minutes ago and it worked. It would not let me preview so I thought it failed but it showed up.
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This rifle was originally owned by Otho Bean in West Virginia.
(https://i.ibb.co/jvZZ3k4B/E1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/zVgKb03W/E2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/xtjHNdbV/E3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Lock marked JOHN WALKER.
(https://i.ibb.co/s9FNz4S7/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zVSBDgcd)
(https://i.ibb.co/yFnkykpX/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/chc8F8w1)
(https://i.ibb.co/fzX5svgT/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G4dLqT6r)
(https://i.ibb.co/4gm1HXTK/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sJmWZNwb)
(https://i.ibb.co/prJ7nyHb/5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S7RjJrk5)
(https://i.ibb.co/27XLgwSF/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hRpnDkcg)
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Thanks for trying one more time to post pictures of these rifles Chris. Well worth the wait to see them. Thanks for sharing.
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I like these square tail lock plates but made maybe 2 or 3 but didn't remember if they were flint or cap locks.Memory loss,one of the "joys" of fossilization and I do appreciate all you guys who post these pictures.I have a nicely equipped little shop and made ONE full stock rifle since 1964 and used a precarved one from Pecatonica in walnut.It was 58 caliber with a Ketland lock,and single trigger.
Bob Roller
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Thanks for posting pictures guys, I’ve been trying to figure out how to carve my cheek on my SMR and this has been very helpful. Seems there quite a few variations.
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Duckhunter,
If you haven't seen it already, you might want to check out this page. This shows photos of the original Whitson (attributed) rifle that the Kibler SMR is most similar to. The photos include a photo of the cheek piece. (The rifle with the white background is the Whitson closest to the Kibler. The one with the purple background is also a cool rifle, but the Kibler is not a similar to that one as to the other one.)
https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-newly-designed-mountain-rifle-kit-by.html?m=1
I'd guess these photos originally came from Kibler's website. They are easy to find on the Contemporary Blogspot site.
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Thanks! I’ll check it out.
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I must respectfully disagree with whetrock on one point.
Although the Carson rifle shown in the above link was undoubtedly one of the study pieces that influenced the design of the Kibler SMR, I believe another Whitson attributed rifle - the McBee rifle - is more closely reflected in the ultimate Kibler design.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59088.msg681899#msg681899
There are many similarities between the two Whitson rifles, but there are also significant differences. Compare the lock plate, lock panel, and lock nail escutcheon on the Kibler rifle to those of the Carson rifle, and then compare them to those of the McBee rifle. I believe the McBee influence to be obvious. There are also differences. While the McBee rifle has three upper thimbles and no entry thimble, the Kibler SMR has an entry thimble and the more traditional two upper thimbles. If memory serves me correctly, the Carson rifle has an entry thimble and two upper thimbles - all silver.
That said, with the above-mentioned exceptions, the two rifles are so similar in design that either could be used for study purposes with equal success. In my opinion, both rifles are drop-dead gorgeous.
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Oh! Yes, Bluenoser is exactly correct. (He and I already talked about this separately some months back.) I agree completely with what he has just said about the McBee rifle.
(Sorry about that, my friend! Glad you are on the ball!)
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(https://i.ibb.co/DPdKnRTZ/IMG-3065.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JWZkPsg9)
(https://i.ibb.co/sJgP5pM6/IMG-3066.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cXyvbK7C)
(https://i.ibb.co/GhwRf1H/IMG-3067.jpg) (https://ibb.co/57DLXzK)
(https://i.ibb.co/qM9FRTJv/IMG-3068.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kj7z9TKJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/mFcDTYQy/IMG-3074.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z1MLXwyg)
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(https://i.ibb.co/JFyhbN74/IMG-9282.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6J1dp2Px)
A few old hog rifles from East Tennessee.
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Jacob Gross- found in a barn loft in White County Tennessee in 2019.
(https://i.ibb.co/z9zSHf7/IMG-0706.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7MqGNyR)
(https://i.ibb.co/pBh8SLJG/IMG-0707.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tTLt9J8k)
(https://i.ibb.co/WW2ybjwN/IMG-0712.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFKN2tR7)
(https://i.ibb.co/r2xggnG7/IMG-0714.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xx799mZ2)
(https://i.ibb.co/jP9FY8Z2/IMG-0709.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q37GVJjR)
(https://i.ibb.co/7Nz18v9T/IMG-0708.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z1JMtdZw)
(https://i.ibb.co/jZ5xWKGN/IMG-0720.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z1JwYsKj)
(https://i.ibb.co/NnpFP8nK/IMG-0723.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yB5N1wBq)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1BVT9TW/IMG-0727.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S7tPvSvR)
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Those are some nice Hog rifles. Are any of the 3 in your middle post signed?
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Bottom is David W Goode of Green County Tn, Middle is Austin Hackworth of Marion Co Tn, don’t remember who the top one is.
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Better photos of the Austin Hackworth rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/tfg13nd/IMG-1663.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W9ZRs7T)
(https://i.ibb.co/GL688BP/IMG-1664.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RmFssZH)
(https://i.ibb.co/jvT4b3KH/IMG-1665.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fY20qrRQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z6Km16Vf/IMG-1666.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6RbBJRmy)
(https://i.ibb.co/RpRF78Gn/IMG-1667.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kgN7MZVn)
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Duckhunter,
If you haven't seen it already, you might want to check out this page. This shows photos of the original Whitson (attributed) rifle that the Kibler SMR is most similar to. The photos include a photo of the cheek piece. (The rifle with the white background is the Whitson closest to the Kibler. The one with the purple background is also a cool rifle, but the Kibler is not a similar to that one as to the other one.)
https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-newly-designed-mountain-rifle-kit-by.html?m=1
I own the original Whitson rifle studied by Jim Kibler and used as his pattern. It’s referred to as the “Joy” rifle, as it was made for a person named Joy.
I'd guess these photos originally came from Kibler's website. They are easy to find on the Contemporary Blogspot site.
(https://i.ibb.co/Q3q6F5gj/IMG-1167.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9kfq9MD3)
(https://i.ibb.co/VY6v363w/IMG-1168.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F4pBnpnH)
(https://i.ibb.co/5xKzDDm9/IMG-1169.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M5BjTTrh)
(https://i.ibb.co/F4xYgnyk/IMG-1170.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v4wdZDTC)
(https://i.ibb.co/P7mwp7t/IMG-1171.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cGgD5Gx)
(https://i.ibb.co/HT0fLTpy/IMG-1172.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pjgB6jrT)
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Soddy-Daisy chunk gun. I attribute this rifle to Enoch Hardin.
(https://i.ibb.co/dwhQhB0F/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W4TcTnWZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/ywyQ0qB/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HWzH7qp)
(https://i.ibb.co/0VZ3Wnbk/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S70p16C2)
(https://i.ibb.co/27tLpksP/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/svwDXV6Q)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1BvszL4/5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jZyqKk60)
(https://i.ibb.co/N66pJ2XW/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4ZZMXRc4)
(https://i.ibb.co/zVF7snf2/7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hFcZs78d)
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Love the lines and hardware of this rifle. Especially the sideplate! Thanks for posting these.
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I only have a couple Southern Rifles. This is the one I picked off E-Bay (with help) some years ago. Attrib to J. Whitson. It's had some work including a replaced lock.
(https://i.ibb.co/XfVkVxT1/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mrSFS57k)
(https://i.ibb.co/C5YHKw9G/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ynZQFNkj)
(https://i.ibb.co/LDHjpDQF/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZR74TRHj)
(https://i.ibb.co/4njFHsdQ/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XrzWqy8w)
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Here's another. No Name or marks on the barrel. Original flint, and the barrel was what I'd call gunsmith made.
This one is long gone, and these are the only pictures I have.
I'm curious if anyone can tell me anything about it?
John
(https://i.ibb.co/9H1ktrrQ/Full-Length.jpg) (https://ibb.co/23C1NkkG)
(https://i.ibb.co/v6YMBXPF/Lock-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4nd0f1Tq)
(https://i.ibb.co/pvBwF7NF/Cheek-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tMTKrGnr)
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I love both that you posted. The last one, with the severe curved buttplate and square trigger guard and rail looks eastern TN to me.
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This is one of my favorite southern rifles. Made by Samuel Lafayette Click. He was a very interesting character. He worked in Tennessee and Virginia. Read the excerpt from the Foxfire 5 book included here.
(https://i.ibb.co/WvSGn3L6/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VYXJVNst)
(https://i.ibb.co/mrPDcxx6/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xKrC744J)
(https://i.ibb.co/Rp9sc6vb/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y731hdRQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZpS9T0SN/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mV0pz30S)
(https://i.ibb.co/WWtyHRB8/foxfire1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lz5t0s9j)
(https://i.ibb.co/5grj4W6L/foxfire2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/cKML60C3/click.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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This rifle was bought last fall and has a D Sheets j engraved signature on top barrel flat. No entry pipe or butt plate. rr pipes and nose cap of brass. Forged iron trigger guard.
I’m guessing the j is for junior but haven’t been able to find any listing of a D Sheets junior. This was located in Ks and there was a D Sheets that had relocated to Mo. Lots of drop at toe like many I see on this thread.
Like 9.5”
About .36/.38 cal and coned to about .40,swamped barrel.
(https://i.ibb.co/1fpMy220/IMG-5795.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xScY9552)
(https://i.ibb.co/fGyHMr3z/IMG-5791.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2YCdqcz1)
(https://i.ibb.co/9m7pr0xB/IMG-5793.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RGqgDKXt)
(https://i.ibb.co/Tnnbmcq/IMG-5792.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2LLsgqY)
(https://i.ibb.co/mrDztXJF/IMG-5803.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dsWK6LBJ)
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A better shot of the j in signature.
(https://i.ibb.co/nq7JRCyj/IMG-5804.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q7PwXdVM)
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LF LEGG 1886 on the barrel.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gfmzk1XH/thumbnail-34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wZt5CbTc)
(https://i.ibb.co/DH2NDjHS/thumbnail-37.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hJzkRTJt)
(https://i.ibb.co/gZ5YXPTG/thumbnail-38.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yFw2MYyD)
(https://i.ibb.co/5WKmfPwW/thumbnail-39.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vxXpKSRx)
(https://i.ibb.co/fzHNrtpm/thumbnail-53.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C3Q9Vv7x)
(https://i.ibb.co/rf5jPVWS/thumbnail-54.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NnWvhM4P)
(https://i.ibb.co/hFTv80zs/thumbnail-55.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TMN5hy3c)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jw72RL8c/thumbnail-56.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0RMZjN1n)
(https://i.ibb.co/HT1LH59d/thumbnail-57.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WvqN2mRt)
(https://i.ibb.co/DPtTtY5X/thumbnail-67.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MysQsfMT)
(https://i.ibb.co/vxsdVXcM/thumbnail-72.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QF8HpDJx)
(https://i.ibb.co/DPtTtY5X/thumbnail-67.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MysQsfMT)
(https://i.ibb.co/kg9271RX/thumbnail-69.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tMxpGX7D)
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Ambrose Lawing. Unique brass overlay triggerguard.
(https://i.ibb.co/LhptwPbF/IMG-5463.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tPCsfhkG)
(https://i.ibb.co/yBbNr2hn/IMG-5464.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k6WGtZ3g)
(https://i.ibb.co/V0k4H7Jj/IMG-5467.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dsHYbdjW)
(https://i.ibb.co/21PbVDKp/IMG-5469.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C3vrCk0S)
(https://i.ibb.co/FbSxBC9n/IMG-5470.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vx7wJRbD)
(https://i.ibb.co/HTP7xczR/IMG-5471.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xx5X3ns6)
(https://i.ibb.co/Tnc8ngf/IMG-5472.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XdXsdCQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/KzwV4Jv3/IMG-5474.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bRJNwk98)
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OK, here's a very unique Tennessee rifle from my collection. I call it my 'Sawtooth Rifle'. The inscription on the silver inlay in the barrel reads, "Wm Miller the shooter of Tenn" with a date beside that of 1857. The rifle was shot so much that they shortened the breach end a small amount due to the corrosion from the caps. Then, it was fired a lot more to create a large amount of corrosion again. I do not know who William Miller was but he must have been quite a marksman!
(https://i.ibb.co/9HCPRXWG/fullshot.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ch7qz5Qx)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z6CHJ6Bg/muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DDnGbD9M)
(https://i.ibb.co/HZGRcg2/patchbox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JZr8Ykd)
(https://i.ibb.co/v6Cw5Mbc/c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9km8XdJp)
(https://i.ibb.co/whcj6KHY/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PGD0C5pt)
(https://i.ibb.co/mC0VmxYH/b.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y7XF6rKt)
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Everyone is putting up some great southern eye candy for sure. Here is a Wm. N. Beals. I haven't had it very long, but I sure do like it.
(https://i.ibb.co/tpj4x7WR/thumbnail-1000004031.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5hp6nNfZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/0RcRzbLR/thumbnail-1000004032.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B5t5YMJ5)
(https://i.ibb.co/609wSYrP/thumbnail-1000004035.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F4Z316mw)
(https://i.ibb.co/kghVFHFb/thumbnail-1000004036.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nsDqSgSd)
(https://i.ibb.co/MxjLQVN5/thumbnail-1000004037.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fzK7Lp0G)
(https://i.ibb.co/G3JfJbMF/thumbnail-1000004040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sJPpPM1t)
(https://i.ibb.co/whQYRFmP/thumbnail-1000004043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jkwHTPXQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Dhdf30K/thumbnail-1000004044.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zpdVKqf)
(https://i.ibb.co/B5ZXx9D4/thumbnail-1000004047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zTRyYzc8)
(https://i.ibb.co/JwgQsktM/thumbnail-1000004050.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zp7mMTXk)
(https://i.ibb.co/LdXgvY0G/thumbnail-1000004051.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8gLxXNmh)
(https://i.ibb.co/ksf435NW/thumbnail-1000004052.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rRSxbFD1)
(https://i.ibb.co/ymDb65cr/thumbnail-1000004054.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BHmSyj59)
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Another William N. Beals.
(https://i.ibb.co/wFNnqWgM/IMG-1012.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hJRGNW9D)
(https://i.ibb.co/7dHx36ty/IMG-1013.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ycDmzbFs)
(https://i.ibb.co/cKRC5zkG/IMG-1014.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ngfmhwt8)
(https://i.ibb.co/VWcpbHpZ/IMG-1015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y7FTJDTM)
(https://i.ibb.co/GvxY60Ft/IMG-1016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7JYMfXbR)
(https://i.ibb.co/cc5RyHV3/IMG-1017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ynTKN17P)
(https://i.ibb.co/VYTWwTrT/IMG-1018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pjdvhdGd)
(https://i.ibb.co/k2LLMj5Y/IMG-1021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r2BBvYFn)
(https://i.ibb.co/s9Rp6fTv/IMG-1023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CK8pMcj5)
(https://i.ibb.co/SLWr3ZR/IMG-1037.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4Q9dV0P)
(https://i.ibb.co/KkCpHv3/IMG-1041.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nvhNSJ5)
(https://i.ibb.co/r2Zs6xb7/IMG-1043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MkR6Vc82)
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Beautiful!!!!!
Robby
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The guard construction on the second one looks different and a style I want to try. Looks like the rail is mortised into the rear of the bow, and the front of the bow mortised into the forward extension. Am I seeing it right? Any sign of braze or do you think it’s riveted or welded or both?
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Sequatchie,
Your posted A. Lawing rifle with a brass colored guard was described as "brass overlay." Based on similar guards made in southeastern KY just above the TN line, guards like this were actually made out of three strips of solid brass and riveted together to make a TN style guard. I can see one rivet on the back of your bow, but your guard may have also been soldered since joints are smoothed so well. In KY it is easy to see the three pieces used to construct the guard, and the rivets holding them together.
One KY maker, William Hall in Floyd Co., actually cast a couple TN style guards that look like this... that had to be tough!
Shelby Gallien
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This is a great thread, I love looking at the cheek pieces to see what carving if any was used. I’ve build 3 southern mountain rifles from kits I’m trying to be more correct with every build. The two grooves in the cheek seem to be the most common embellishment and they seem to vary a lot when it comes to the groove depth and contours. To all you original SMR owners posting pictures, thank you so much!!! It’s very helpful to us novices.
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The sawtooth rifle is reminiscent of the work of a gunsmith whose last name is Bible that worked in Tennessee. The long extensions on the buttplate, long slim sawtoothed patch box, and the back action lock are extremely similar.
Hungry Horse
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I had a few folks who are knowledgeable about these east Tennessee gunsmiths tell me they thought it was brass overlay on iron. I no longer have the rifle so it would be difficult to check. It certainly is possible that it is solid brass that is riveted. I recall thinking the overlay was much more work, and would take some real talent. The wear on the guard looked more like overlay. This rifle was purchased from the Washington State Historical Association in the 1970s. It was donated to them by descendants of a pioneer family and it made the wagon trip west with them.
(https://i.ibb.co/Q38LqjZ1/IMG-5469.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZpH5w13k)
(https://i.ibb.co/hJ61ZkQR/IMG-5470.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cSBXCPfc)
(https://i.ibb.co/kgHVLL4c/IMG-5471.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vxwCNN3z)
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I had a Jonathan Gross rifle that had an iron guard with brass overlay.
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Attributed to the elder Pete Howell, Yancy Co., NC. Previously thought to be a Unicoi Co., TN piece and identified as such in the library. Note the unusual method of attaching the lock. There was never a lock nail. One might think this method inadequate, but the lock is still as solidly in place as the day the rifle was built.
(https://i.ibb.co/6RC0vVgh/Pete-Howell.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/9kXf5jWv/Pete-Howell-Tombstone.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tTfNr5Dh)
(https://i.ibb.co/QFVFdZjz/Right-Side-View.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0jLjtkV8)
(https://i.ibb.co/j9pH5Bcy/Butt-Plate-Extension.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FkPnWNS5)
(https://i.ibb.co/d4HmtwqT/Butt-Plate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B2YnG5xp)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xr6Fmn7q/Cheek-Rest.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HfRGmctj)
(https://i.ibb.co/zHF5BFFw/Entry-Thimble-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yBpRZppJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Ldywh3QF/Forearm.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pjTDrSW7)
(https://i.ibb.co/PvsHJQgf/Front-Sight.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FLkTcVzj)
(https://i.ibb.co/pGFp0xH/Left-Side-Panel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J0JPBKY)
(https://i.ibb.co/wN8Rnq8S/Left-Side-View.jpg) (https://ibb.co/99BNx0Bb)
(https://i.ibb.co/bRF4Ltx3/Lock-Side-Panel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qFCH96zn)
(https://i.ibb.co/Bv4sKGG/Muzzle-Decoration.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YyKGWb9/Rear-Sight.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zHrfqQkM)
(https://i.ibb.co/9Hscmhhx/Tang.jpg) (https://ibb.co/60grc88K)
(https://i.ibb.co/V0hcckmj/Toe-Plate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RGMkkJyv)
(https://i.ibb.co/v6s2Y6B1/Trigger-Guard-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mx8q6xhn)
(https://i.ibb.co/9BJHMj5/Trigger-Guard-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pNgjmpF)
(https://i.ibb.co/chvxhLcm/Trigger-Guard-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QvcXvdF5)
(https://i.ibb.co/XrXnd8mB/Trigger-Guard-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zTs3LJKc)
(https://i.ibb.co/xqyzfj4K/Upper-Thimble-Nose-Cap.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3mwSMNJ5)
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I had a rifle with the same marked lock that was attached the same way. I recall seeing this rifle before when it was discussed years ago on this forum. Seems an odd way of attaching the lock.
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It is indeed and yours is the only other rifle I have heard of that had that method of lock attachment. Not surprising that it would be another Pete Howell.
Could you post pics?
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John Painter, Botetourt County VA also used a wood screw from the right side on some of his works.
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It is indeed and yours is the only other rifle I have heard of that had that method of lock attachment. Not surprising that it would be another Pete Howell.
Could you post pics?
I no longer have the rifle, but will look to see if I still have the photos.
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This is one of my favorites, attributed to Jacob Gross II by Dave Byrd. This one was signed, there is an empty rectangle where the silver plate used to be, on the top of the barrel. It was gone a long time, by the patina in the slot, when I got the gun.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50069925218_6b0e46a5b6_o.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50069671361_0112d9ec29_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50069988787_9ecee657a2_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50069116188_5bcc5fb86c_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50069752076_b6982073d1_b.jpg)
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The sawtooth rifle is reminiscent of the work of a gunsmith whose last name is Bible that worked in Tennessee. The long extensions on the buttplate, long slim sawtoothed patch box, and the back action lock are extremely similar.
Hungry Horse
Where can I find photos of the Bible rifles you are referring to? I have a pistol by Elbert Bible.
Chris
(https://i.ibb.co/KcpRd7r4/A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1Yth1Kmy)
(https://i.ibb.co/zVmZTXwm/portrait.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Df1QH9n1)
(https://i.ibb.co/chQqTQbt/Biblehome.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3mcKhcfW)
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I’ve noticed this feature on other Southern rifles that bluenoser posted, is this a two piece tang? Is the rear tang dovetailed or slotted to fit under the barrel tang?
Bob
(https://i.ibb.co/5gMQ7RRL/IMG-0212.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NdV04yyK)
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I’ve noticed this feature on other Southern rifles that bluenoser posted, is this a two piece tang? Is the rear tang dovetailed or slotted to fit under the barrel tang?
Bob
(https://i.ibb.co/5gMQ7RRL/IMG-0212.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NdV04yyK)
It is a break. I suspect it is an all too common occurrence when trying to remove a barrel with one of those long narrow tangs.
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Restocked Jacob Gross.
(https://i.ibb.co/67sZkrrz/IMG-0706.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NdY3Mtt5)
(https://i.ibb.co/BV4NNVqW/IMG-0708.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jvVRRvg0)
(https://i.ibb.co/SX9MgSVS/IMG-0709.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kgWwTZqZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/0yHkP43N/IMG-0712.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ch4Pzfd5)
(https://i.ibb.co/DPLkKtmK/IMG-0713.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WNsFK67K)
(https://i.ibb.co/JWXSFcgK/IMG-0714.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nqhK8wtb)
(https://i.ibb.co/2J2ZZmJ/IMG-0718.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z9s22t9)
(https://i.ibb.co/7x0dscC3/IMG-0716.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6cq7jhwK)
(https://i.ibb.co/B2vdkvXn/IMG-0717.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HTR1ZRWh)
(https://i.ibb.co/KpKk0G9T/IMG-0719.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G4HLxJVz)
(https://i.ibb.co/zhjrmFry/IMG-0722.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lzb80r8L)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y41ZYfVG/IMG-0723.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hx4fh2Tv)
(https://i.ibb.co/zTWNztM7/IMG-0724.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8LnXHQCd)
(https://i.ibb.co/JMmW4gS/IMG-0727.jpg) (https://ibb.co/htLxjwT)
(https://i.ibb.co/mCVKF7Yz/IMG-0730.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vx6Wv8rz)