AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: JBJ on February 18, 2025, 01:40:15 AM
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I recently watched the following YouTube video by Capandall (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCbK9wHsW_Q) in which he worked through pattering a Westly Richards shotgun first using conventional wads and finally ( at about minute 22) used "corn dust" (corn meal) in place of conventioanl wads. The results were absolutely striking with the cornmeal "wad" turning 70+% patterns. That's full choke patterns out of a cylinder bore! Have any of the you folks tried this approach? I am thinking that this might have potential come turkey season.
J.B.
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very interesting and at 30 meters which is a long shot for a shotgun which i assume is a cylinder bore or no choke at all. definitely worth a try in my flintlock.
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Could solve wad loading problems in tightly choked barrels, too.
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I make up shot-cups from brown grocery shopping bags and get 35-40 #5 hits in the head/neck area of turkey targets at 25 yds. Two wraps around a suitable dowel to fit my TVM 20 gauge fowler does the job.
(https://i.ibb.co/YFG3VdyL/20220212-111820.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NdzsGNmy)
i math symbol (https://usefulwebtool.com/math-keyboard)
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I'm going to give this a try as well. When I've tried paper shot cups had some just go down range like a slug. Some worked, some stayed together even when playing with splitting them
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They were calling it a Hungarian load on the other forum. Below is the link:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/hungarian-load-in-praise-of-wheat.189993/
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Never heard it called Hungarian.
I remember Jim Hash using Cream of Wheat or cornmeal in loads as far back as the late 80s.
That is pretty good patterning. Full choke pattern would be 70% in a 30 inch circle at 40 yards.
He was about 32 yards. Didn't quite catch the circle size.
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The corn meal also acts as a shot buffer to protect the shot from deforming upon discharge. This helps the shot pattern in flight.
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Seems like once somebody gets a “new idea” it never dies. I heard about Corn meal, wheat hearts, malto meal, back in the early seventies. It works, but it’s a pain in the butt. It doesn’t take much moisture to turn this stuff to concrete and getting it out of a horn, or flask, without destroying it isn’t easy. It just became more trouble than it was worth.
Hungry Horse
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Has this been tried against normal wadding for penetration?
I tend to agree with Hungry Horse.
May I say once again, a well developed load should create a killing pattern out to At Least 30 yards, and more likely 40 yards, from a cylinder bore without shot cups, magic wadding or anything else.
Use a size of shot that gives a decent pattern with only sufficient energy to ensure a clean kill at the maximum described range.
I do sometimes wonder why we are determined to learn the hard way what our great grandfathers could have told us.
All the best!
R.
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I think on the trap or skeet range this would be a good thing if it gives you a very good shot pattern. Your load will not be sitting in your barrels for very long. :) Maybe not so good in the duck blind when it is raining or very damp out? Cream of Wheat does not clump up like corn meal does.
The major shot shell manufactures have been using buffers in shot shells for a long time with very good success ;)
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Buffering shot loads goes WAY back in time.
Even prior to the 1870's.
(https://i.ibb.co/mVYJ2Wwh/Ely-Ctg-Explanation.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nNVrYJvQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/XrWzwMWJ/Ely-Ctg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4nFjQ3FN)
According to the writeup on them, the Green ones acted as a single slug to 50yards or more and only opened up to a shot cloud at around 90yards.
Too bad the are not made today. I could "see" paying $5.00 each for them. One would likely load a SxS with one green and one blue, just in case. The
Greens were recommended for deer and wolves to 50yards.
It is quite an intriguing story, about "old man Thomas" with his 12 bore with 48" tubes, vs. the English sportsman with a 24" tubed, SxS in 14 bore in St. Louis.
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My thoughts as I watched the video were zeroed in on turkey hunting where, in my opinion, I want the most even and dense patterns that I can muster. I've shot turkeys at 20 - 25 yards and I've whacked them further out as well. Regardless, I want dense even patterns. A turkey's head is not all that big and, as 83nubnEC's picture showed, the more hits in that small area the better! I might go the entire season and not fire more than two shots (if that many) and each shot needs to count.
I tried the paper shot cups in the past and they can help, but as soon as I can get some decent weather, I hope to give this meal wadding a try. If any of you folks give it a try, please share your thoughts with the rest of us. Details are always appreciated!
Stay warm and dry!
J.B.
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The video was interesting, but shooting skeet, not trap, with what amounts to a full choked shotgun makes it much more difficult. Open bores, ie: cylinder and skeet chokes, even spreader chokes are normally used for skeet shooting. His shots were 25yards at the most. I was surprised he wasn't turning them into dust, so must have been fringe hits. Mikey can probably attest to this.
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I tried cornmeal for my over-powder wad and I was sold on it. I've also used grass or shredded brown paper as over-shot wadding, which dissipates and wont make a hole in the pattern.
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The use of corn meal does sound quite interesting. I might try it at some point.
I find the thin "B" wad doesn't hurt the pattern either. Very light-weight and likely frizbies away from the shot cloud.
I have used just a couple "B" wads on the powder, then shot, then another "B" was over the top and broke 10 straight
with that combination to win the trap contest.
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If you got an odd gauge smoothie that’s hard to get wads for this is the trick. I’ve got a smoothie made from an antique barrel that work out to be about .47 caliber whatever guage that is. Corn meal works great in it.
Hungry Horse
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H-H,
Wonder if cornmeal mixed with tungsten polymer would work for wildfowl?
That substitute has some things going for it, And against!
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If I were using tungsten shot, I would be using a steel shot cup wad, with a card wad between that and the powder.
Some wads can be purchased that are non-slit, so a person could slit his own(varying lengths & number of slit(s)) and by that, tighten or expand patterns as wanted.
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Notice that "cap and ball" is testing in a 10 bore SxS WR and is using 1.20(rounded) ounces of shot. I see that his shot in the measure is rounded, so likely a full 1 1/4 ounce of shot, but
only 70% of that (87gr. equivalence on his powder measure. Mathematically, I make that to be 60.9gr. powder. That is a light load, especially for a 10 bore. Interesting.
That was the first test. Second test was with 65gr. powder. That's only 2.38 drams. 2.5 would be 68 grains. This is a 10 bore.
When he went to almost 3 drams and the 1 1/4oz shot, he blew the pattern and hit heavy was holed the paper. The final load when using corn meal, was 70gr. 2F Swiss. That is a light load
for a 12 bore, let alone a 10 bore. I think, still using the 1 1/4oz. shot.
Interesting.
I do have to comment that 25 birds out of 35 thrown, is not very good shooting. Mikey B. can attest to that.
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Bald faced hornet nest works great and patterns great......It's easy to find and use. The only caveat is that if you are shooting when it is super dry it can catch the woods on fire ;D
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Interesting. I know it burns well, when in a tree. Sam F. stated wasp nest was "like asbestos" when he used it as a barrier to protect his .010" or .012" patches from burning up.
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Daryl, it does not ignite, but can smolder if the charge is too great, so if it is super dry it can ignite pine needles and such......With that said, burnt cloth patches can do the same thing......Whenever I find a vacant hive I take it as I am cheap/frugal.......... ;D
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Been using corn meal for several years. I just pour the black powder equivalent charge of corn meal over the powder and pour the shot over the corn meal with an overshot card. Pictured is a full choke shotgun I made from an old Savage 12-gauge Poke stalk.
(https://i.ibb.co/YTpybJ85/20230525-150240.jpg) (https://ibb.co/846dXG2y)
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Quite center dense - around the 6 o'clock position on that black and white target.
Deadly. You didn't mention your "load" or how much shot, Leatherbark.
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target says 80 gr. 2f geox = cornmeal = 7 1/2 shot.
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How much shot? 2 ounces?
Using corn meal as the overpower wad, would certainly make it easier to load a full choked gun than with a 1/2" fiber wad.
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It was a square load all the way around. 80 powder, equivalent corn meal, equivalent 7-1/2 shot. The load is on the target, but it is hard to see unless it is enlarged. It also says the aiming point is at the bottom of the bull and the distance was 30 yards. This shotgun shoots high because of not enough drop in the stock because I cannot cheek down without having to look over my glasses. For someone that can see okay it cheeks just fine, you can aim down the barrel. But it shooting high for my hold Helps for those long-range clay birds. When I aim and yank the trigger at the right time (seldom), my buddy said it obliterates a clay pigeon way out there. I need to solder a tall fowler sight on it.
Bob
(https://i.ibb.co/8n0F84JY/Screenshot-2025-03-01-184116.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Even without knowing the pattern percentage, that's a turkey "getter" for sure! Is the barrel choked? You mentioned that you made the shotgun using the tube from an old Savage single barrel shotgun. A lot of those old single barrels were choked full unless you cut it back a bit. I definitely have to try this method out.
J.B.
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Or range, Leatherbark.
If a dense central concentration, with a smooth bore there is no guarantee it will always be in the same position to the overall spread.
That is why the evenest distribution of pellets over the entire target is the best possible answer.
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Even without knowing the pattern percentage, that's a turkey "getter" for sure! Is the barrel choked? You mentioned that you made the shotgun using the tube from an old Savage single barrel shotgun. A lot of those old single barrels were choked full unless you cut it back a bit. I definitely have to try this method out.
J.B.
Pictured is a full choke shotgun I made from an old Savage 12-gauge Poke stalk.
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There’s so much packed in this post from the video to all the replies I don’t know where to begin.
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Could solve wad loading problems in tightly choked barrels, too.
Absolutely! Big light bulb over my head with this thought. I have a turkey choke Colerain barrel laying around for years and one of my hesitations about using it was the tight constriction of the bore and how loading it is not going to be a lot of fun.
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The corn meal also acts as a shot buffer to protect the shot from deforming upon discharge. This helps the shot pattern in flight.
I wonder if loading as in the video and it sitting as a wad under the shot is going to get you much mixing, in a typical shot buffer manner, into the shot as it is fired? Danny Caywood on his website had a recipe that included pushing your over powder wad down the bore a bit and adding corn meal, while tapping the barrel, to fill in the voids of the shot like buffer in a modern shot gun shell. I tested it a good bit years ago and I say it definitely worked but it probably only added a couple of yards to the pattern. I was doing this for turkey hunting and may have only loaded the gun once in a season (other than patterning) and it definitely is not some you would want to do if you had to do a lot of reloading. I pretty much got away from doing it altogether and usually load in a V. M. Starr like manner and go with it file turkeys. (It is a jugged choked 20 ga. though.)
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Interesting. I know it burns well, when in a tree. Sam F. stated wasp nest was "like asbestos" when he used it as a barrier to protect his .010" or .012" patches from burning up.
Well you suckered me in and got me off cornmeal for a second. 😃 Many years ago when I started out I experienced a stuck ball and came to the conclusion I needed thinner patches if I was going to play this game. The result wasthin patches that were getting burnt up pretty bad. Back in those days ol Sam F. was required reading and I picked up on the hornets nest idea. A couple layers across the muzzle and a ramrod run down and you had a hornets nest vision was. Lo and behold this worked. Patches were getting recovered intact and accuracy improved.
I later learned that this was not necessary and you could do quite all right with thicker patching material 😉
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Joe, another way of loading it and getting Full choke or perhaps better performance would be using just the overshot card wads between powder and shot
and over the shot. They will load easily though the choke and fill the bore. Would be easier loading than carrying and dispensing the corn meal.
It is well worth trying. Even though BP is fast burning compared to the modern "grey" powder, it seems to have less deformation characteristics to a shot
charge & seems to invariably produce tighter patterns in any given choke. I found this when trying BP loads in modern guns. TIGHTER patterns.
This is worth a try. It's all about experimenting.
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Exactly Daryl. The Caywood recipe called for 3 or so thin (overshot) cards over the powder. I guess the idea is to prevent blowing through the loaf. It works fine but I don’t get an appreciable difference in pattern doing it this way versus just using the 1/8 inch-ish thick wad over powder in my jug choked Type C trade gun. An I’ve done a lot of load up with shot, loading down with powder, changing powder now going to try this manner trying to see if anything works better.
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… ok Daryl, went back and re-read what you were talking about and I think you are talking about getting the thin wads down the Colerain turkey choke. Yes I’m sure that would work if I get on the ball and ever get that built.
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Powder. Wasp nest. Shot. Wasp nest. Works well for me.
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Keith, when you say wasp nest I am assuming you mean the “honeycombed” nest made by wasps as opposed to hornet. What I’m was using was the paper hornets nest which are the big nests with the “honeycomb” (and to be clear I know there’s no honey for either of these bees involved) inside the nest. This material is in layers and kind of crumbly. I don’t think it would keep your shot down unless you used a whole lot of it. I can see where actual wasp nest would be kind of spongy, springy and would expand in the bore and hold shotgun loading components in place.
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I’ve found 7 1/2 shot to be almost worthless in a muzzleloader. When you put enough powder in it to penetrate it blows the pattern.
Hungry Horse
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That is fascinating observation to me HH. My experience on paper is that I can get very good patterns out of my 20 ga. Type C trade gun and I have honestly killed a bunch of turkeys with that gun and they are not known for being in the easiest of game to kill with shot. I’m shooting (or trying to) shoot them in the head but being a muzzleloader all the shot does not necessarily go where I want and I have cleaned birds that have had pellets completely penetrate the breast. Mind you I have hedged my bet on this and mostly been using copper plated 7 1/2’s.
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… the big thing that I should add in regards to this discussion is what range are you wanting to limit yourself to? When I first built the gun it was cylinder bore and I trusted the pattern out to 23 yards. So I felt I had a cushion to misjudge a bit and effectively kill out to about 25. I’ve since had it jug choked and I feel it’s probably a 30 yard gun now. I don’t know that I’ve shot that many birds at that range to discuss whether the pellet size is limiting but I’ve shot a lot of them at 25 and in and I can’t think of many shrugging it off.
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Years ago, for ducks over decoys, I switched to trap loads. Head and necks, hardly ever any pellets in the breasts.
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Turkey hunt with a cornmeal load.
https://youtu.be/Dd24WZmUy_g
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Even without knowing the pattern percentage, that's a turkey "getter" for sure! Is the barrel choked? You mentioned that you made the shotgun using the tube from an old Savage single barrel shotgun. A lot of those old single barrels were choked full unless you cut it back a bit. I definitely have to try this method out.
J.B.
Yes, it still has the full choke which is why I use the Corn meal or 12 wool wads. The 12-gauge chamber of a modern gun is ideal for a 7/8 x 14 breech plug made from a grade-8 bolt. Also, the forcing cone of the savage barrel makes a good seal for the plug which i made it about 1-1/2 inches long with a firing chamber and tapered to fit the forcing cone. An 1803 Harpers Ferry rib fit the barrel contour and was soldered to the barrel prior to browning.
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I use the big gray nests hanging in the trees. Its like flash paper. Works like it. No holes in your pattern.
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According to my chart, an 80gr. powder measure holds 1 1/8oz shot. That would be a fine, 7 1/2 shot that I used in testing.