AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on March 03, 2025, 06:55:58 PM
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Any good longrifle auctions on the horizon? I've been checking here and there, but have not seen that much.
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Morphy has one live. Now.
https://www.proxibid.com/Guns-Military-Artifacts/Flintlocks/A-INCISE-CARVED-HEAVY-BARREL-FLINTLOCK-KENTUCKY-TARGET-RIFLE/lotInformation/90544695
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Morphy has one live. Now.
https://www.proxibid.com/Guns-Military-Artifacts/Flintlocks/A-INCISE-CARVED-HEAVY-BARREL-FLINTLOCK-KENTUCKY-TARGET-RIFLE/lotInformation/90544695
I happen to be the new owner of the rifle in the link.
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Morphy has one live. Now.
https://www.proxibid.com/Guns-Military-Artifacts/Flintlocks/A-INCISE-CARVED-HEAVY-BARREL-FLINTLOCK-KENTUCKY-TARGET-RIFLE/lotInformation/90544695
I happen to be the new owner of the rifle in the link.
Congratulations! What a beautiful patchbox.
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Morphy has one live. Now.
https://www.proxibid.com/Guns-Military-Artifacts/Flintlocks/A-INCISE-CARVED-HEAVY-BARREL-FLINTLOCK-KENTUCKY-TARGET-RIFLE/lotInformation/90544695
I happen to be the new owner of the rifle in the link.
Congratulations! What a beautiful patchbox.
Thank you. That is actually my first Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle acquisition, as the only muzzleloader I owned previously was a Leman Civil War era militia rifle I bought in December. I am fairly confident the rifle is from York County and made by C. Zorger. The name on the barrel is that of a prominent York County iron-making and hardware firm. There is a C. Zorger in Shumway's "Pennsylvania Longrifles of Note" on pp. 64-65 with incise carving strikingly similar to that of the Morphy gun (C. Zorger apparently frequently replicated the same patterns rather than introducing new ones). The patchbox designs are similar, however, Shumway also notes the existence of at least one C. Zorger patchbox with a dog head finial similar to those appearing on some Adam Ernst York County rifles. The Morphy rifle indeed has a dog head finial, which I think is a really cool feature. It is quite similar to Ernst examples pictured online. C. Zorger was also known as a maker of target/match rifles like the Morphy gun, which of course lacks some overall elegance of form relative to many general-purpose longrifles. As a Lancaster County native and resident, a York County rifle is right in my neighborhood, so to speak.
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Pray-tell, what is the calibre of this "heavy" most interesting rifle?
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Pray-tell, what is the calibre of this "heavy" most interesting rifle?
According to the auction listing it is .65 caliber.
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I thought I was the only one who liked large bore target rifles?
Joking aside, .65 is quite a size for "target shooting". :o
Can't help but wonder if it's just a big, heavy hunting rifle.
What does it weigh?
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I thought I was the only one who liked large bore target rifles?
Joking aside, .65 is quite a size for "target shooting". :o
Can't help but wonder if it's just a big, heavy hunting rifle.
What does it weigh?
It is a brute, isn't it? It's noticeably less elegant even than the C. Zorger target rifle in Shumway's book. And I am assuming the caliber in the auction listing is correct, but it is in any case a very heavy barrel - I will need to weigh the rifle after I have it. I bid on it because I liked the patchbox and the carving, I was really focusing on a Leman in the same auction.
EDIT: Checking the auction listing again, it does mention extra dovetails on the barrel for sight adjustment, which I think does argue for it's having been a bench rifle.
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EDIT: Checking the auction listing again, it does mention extra dovetails on the barrel for sight adjustment, which I think does argue for it's having been a bench rifle.
Extra dovetails can also indicate the rear sight had to move based on the owner's aging and changing eyesight, or a new owner's different eyesight. I've seen a few where the rear sight was moved rearward as many as 4 times.
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EDIT: Checking the auction listing again, it does mention extra dovetails on the barrel for sight adjustment, which I think does argue for it's having been a bench rifle.
Extra dovetails can also indicate the rear sight had to move based on the owner's aging and changing eyesight, or a new owner's different eyesight. I've seen a few where the rear sight was moved rearward as many as 4 times.
At this point in my life, I'm probably a six or seven rearward sight movement marksman.
If that was done for an aging owner, I'm surprised he was still able to hold the rifle.
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Morphy has one live. Now.
https://www.proxibid.com/Guns-Military-Artifacts/Flintlocks/A-INCISE-CARVED-HEAVY-BARREL-FLINTLOCK-KENTUCKY-TARGET-RIFLE/lotInformation/90544695
I happen to be the new owner of the rifle in the link.
Well Congratulations for winning that one, and for a good price!
John
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Rock Island's catalog for May should be out later this month.
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Rock Island's catalog for May should be out later this month.
Morphy also has another firearms auction coming up in May.
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A supposed Dickert was just listed here:
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-house/bradford's-3dve2b2o3o
The photos aren't the greatest and they don't provide a photo of the signature but if it is what they say it is is looks pretty nice.
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They must have updated the photos. There’s a picture of the signature. That poor of gun has had a tough life.
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That's Dickerts signature and touchmark.
Certainly not an early one. If his hand, more like the last one he ever made...
John
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Some of the incised lines in the butt carving look "different" to me. They are a lighter color than the simple incised wrist carving, some cuts are too wide and sloppily cut. The small "rising sun" figure above the main "C" scroll looks very amateurish. Without a hands-on inspection, I'd be leery the original larger, and very simple, deeply cut "C" scrolls in the butt might have been enhanced with additional incised carving. The box is hard to see, but looks only sparsely engraved, perhaps matching a simpler, more sparce butt carving originally.
Shelby Gallien
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Some of the incised lines in the butt carving look "different" to me. They are a lighter color than the simple incised wrist carving, some cuts are too wide, and sloppily cut. The small "rising sun" figure above the main "C" scroll looks very amateurish. Without a hands-on inspection, I'd be leery the larger, original, and very simple, deeply cut "C" scrolls in the butt might have been enhanced with additional incised carving. The box is hard to see, but looks only sparsely engraved, perhaps matching a simpler, more sparce butt carving originally.
Shelby Gallien
I bet his grandson who played around with the finished carving really got a stern talking-to!
I had the same impression, Shelby.
Cool gun, a nice addition to a collection of “as found” guns. And other than the “possibly extra” incised carving it’s a real later Dickert.
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I think the carving is somewhat amateurish, and that's why I said the last one he made. ??? Shelby could be right on the enhancements.
As for the patchbox, what can be seen of the engraving, is Dickert style and is also on his other rifles, and the PB latch looks good as well. I can't see the hinge well enough to tell whether it's correct. In the pictures, the door looks a slightly different color that the side plates.
Lastly, the signature on the barrel looks good and strong.
PS. On second look, I think most of the incised carved lines on the cheek piece side were cut well after original. I would think the original is the incised carving ahead of the cheek piece. And the dark colored semi double C behind the cheek piece. Most of the remainder; after the fact. :-\
Here's a better pic. Click it for a better view.
(https://i.ibb.co/7dG4XXKF/H22021-L400575879-original.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FLBVKKzt)
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Rock Island Auction's catalog is now live online:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/catalog/4094/
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Interesting... I think some of their estimates are unrealistic, but time will tell.
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Digital catalog for the May Morphy auction is now online:
https://issuu.com/morphyauctions/docs/2025_may_13-15_firearms_militaria?fr=sOTZjOTgzNTYzMjU
Might want to start around p.206 depending on how varied your interests are.
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Rock Island Auction's catalog is now live online:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/catalog/4094/
WOW, lot 270. Not American, but WOW.
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Having sold my soul to the devil for a rifle (again), I decided to show a modicum of restraint for a change and not get all that aggressive in pursuing this interesting piece that sold at Fontaine's today. It appeared on Live Auctioneers a few weeks ago. I gave it my best shot for a future restoration project as it looks more than worth the effort. There was no mention of any signature but one would think there's a good chance it's there under a lot of dirt and corrosion. Any thoughts on where this one came from? I was thinking, possibly, North Carolina? Regardless, I presume it's headed to someone's bench and hopefully one day we'll see it on this forum with some new life breathed into it. Not great photos I know but they're right off the listing.
(https://i.ibb.co/JRL1TYdP/200571931-1-x.webp) (https://ibb.co/ns2GyX0S)
(https://i.ibb.co/s9p80RYY/200571931-2-x.webp) (https://ibb.co/CKpRk8GG)
(https://i.ibb.co/sJgMcCt4/200571931-3-x.webp) (https://ibb.co/HpKkRCXy)
(https://i.ibb.co/NgG3N62L/200571931-5-x.webp) (https://ibb.co/wZ2LQNhK)
(https://i.ibb.co/JWcmBQPY/200571931-6-x.webp) (https://ibb.co/9mpc8tjx)
(https://i.ibb.co/cKghMZ11/Picture2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Yeah, you guys might see it again in the future. Best under-the-radar rifle at auction I've seen in a long time. North Carolina bloodline with a couple KY details that, while a NC rifle, can help us explain the origins of KY's Lexington guns a little better. Historically, the Bryan family [from Rowan Co., NC] gets most of the credit for the Lexington rifle style, but if this gun is marked, which I believe it is, I'll be excited to see what it can tell us, since it carries a couple early KY [Lexington] details as well. And thank you for your restraint... now my wife will still speak to me.
Shelby Gallien
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Well, now, at least we know it went to a good home!
John
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This rifle is exceptional in its details, which are muted in its darkened condition. Two details, the rear pipe carving with its double-line molding terminated by an exaggerated "wavy" line, and the butt plate return with its two filed grooves in the raised ridge at the end, are more strongly related to central Bluegrass rifles in Kentucky than to most North Carolina guns.
Despite the gun's damage and wear, two other details indicate this is one of North Carolina's most unique and interesting rifles yet found. Note the complex butt carving, which I like to call "country/sophisticated," and the elaborate ramrod pipes, filed with facets and overlaid with tiny silver diamonds [some missing] that make this rifle an important study piece for those of us interested in early North Carolina rifles, early NC influences on Kentucky's Bluegrass guns, and the NC gunsmiths that provided those influences. I am highlighting the two unique detail areas below so they can be seen more clearly.
Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/jPFFJpPR/AAAA-carving.png) (https://ibb.co/DHnnrqHp)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xf9Gk5bv/AAAA-rear-pipe.png) (https://ibb.co/Q7ZxjHf1)
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Fantastic information and I (and everyone else following this) look forward to additional details and some better photos once it's in your hands. I too am glad this obviously went to a good home. My motivations were much more mercenary but it's nice to know that in not further pursuing this piece I contributed to a harmonious home life. :)
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Shelby, Am I assuming correctly that the stab marks in the butt carving are after the fact jabs?
To me, they look fresh, new, and out of place.
John
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John,
If you are referring to the small, dark punch marks/dots in the larger C scrolls, I believe they are original details of the carving. Some NC rifles get a little quirky in their carving details. When I get the gun in hand I will have better answers, but along with the "different" carved pattern, I think they will prove to be OK.
and to 120RIR... I appreciate your grace in letting this gun go to another collector. I always feel a little bad when I bid and miss an item I really liked, and if you are like me, you may have had a couple "second thoughts" on how you bid the rifle. If it helps, I wanted this rifle for my ongoing research work with Kentucky guns and their connection to North Carolina rifles, and I had decided to acquire the rifle at "almost any" cost well before the final auction, even if it ran much higher. I seldom get an opportunity to acquire a "bridge" piece between an eastern state's guns and Kentucky's guns influenced by that state. Those guns help me understand Kentucky's early gun making better. This rifle was an important piece of that puzzle. So again, thanks for letting this one go.
Shelby Gallien
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Here's a nice piece...a rifling bench setup:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/202410532_rare-19th-c-pa-long-rifle-gunsmith-equipment
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An up-date on shipping this rifle from Massachusetts... Due to uncertainty over state gun laws, the auction house researched it to determine if they could ship it or not, and a week+ later there is still no answer... which I take as a subtle "no." The local UPS store I contacted about shipping it said they weren't sure and had to ask the owner (supposedly the next day)... and a week later they still have not responded back. So... I contacted the largest gun shop in town and they were glad to assist in shipping the rifle, but even they were cautious about the state laws with pre-1898 guns. To get the gun moving, "we" decided to just ship it as a modern firearm under FFL rules. I found a good dealer here in Indiana who sent them the FFL license for the transfer and will accept the gun with no charge to me... I just have to drive a distance to pick it up. So, with some luck, it might be here by next week. Once I had a shipper lined up, I asked them to take a couple extra precautions with the old rifle, to better ensure no wrist breakage in transit [brace wrist area, put "bumper pads" on muzzle and butt], which they were OK with... but then, I haven't seen their final shipping cost yet! The delay is frustrating, but hopefully worth it.
On the bright side, not shipping it directly to the house, and having a couple days to plot and scheme, I now have an opportunity to get it in the house without my wife seeing "another gun" arriving! Phew!
Shelby Gallien
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An up-date on shipping this rifle from Massachusetts... Due to uncertainty over state gun laws, the auction house researched it to determine if they could ship it or not, and a week+ later there is still no answer... which I take as a subtle "no."
I find a bit of irony in the fact that the 250th Anniversary of the Battle of Lexington and Concord is being celebrated in Massachusetts a little over two weeks from now.
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An up-date on shipping this rifle from Massachusetts... Due to uncertainty over state gun laws, the auction house researched it to determine if they could ship it or not, and a week+ later there is still no answer... which I take as a subtle "no."
I find a bit of irony in the fact that the 250th Anniversary of the Battle of Lexington and Concord is being celebrated in Massachusetts a little over two weeks from now.
Good One.