AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: foresterdj on March 24, 2025, 04:03:53 AM
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If the weather ever gets spring like, my Kibler fowler patterning tests will begin (20 gauge). I am thinking through test variables. Will want to test these changing one at a time. Options sorted out from reading various loadings read about here and elsewhere.
Powder: I am thinking to test 60, 70, and 80 grain loads of FFg, should I test or higher/lower?
Over the powder: a typical single over powder card, or 2 or 3 thin over shot cards, or .....?
between over powder treatment and shot component: nothing (just the over powder items, except TSS will be in a cup), cushion wad lubed, plastic shot cups (I have some designed for the TSS, but might test on lead also), wad plus a shot cup, maybe paper shot cups?
Shot: I have bags of reclaimed shot from trap field a mix of 7.5 and 8 (which I would use maybe for grouse, squirrel, clay birds), I have some 5 lead (I think for turkey) and some #7 TSS (ain't never buyin' that spendy stuff again.)
Shot amount: I plan to test 1.2 oz lead 7.5/8 mix (which is what the head of my shot flask throws, and if I test this in the shot cup it is just a couple layers of pellets more than full), 1 oz. and 1,25 oz, of #5 lead (the plastic shot cups hold 1.07 oz of 5's, and without a cup I would like to try 1.25 oz. loads), and 1.25 oz of the #7 TSS (if the plastic shot cup is shortened 3/8th inch the contents will be 1.25 oz of TSS, a full length cup held 1.86 oz of the #7 TSS which I think is a bit much.)
over shot: a thin over shot card, the Sky Chief option, or....?
Not interested in wasp nest, or tow, or other items which themselves are variables every time, plus I don't have them.
Already with all these variables I have a lot of combinations to go through, but if you think I should be sure to test some other option on one of these variables, please list it.
I could try to draw uniform turkey head, but since potential targets vary my plan is to have a point of aim (pointing, since no rear sight) drawn, then put a 6 inch diameter circle over densest spot, count and calculate square inches/shot. Also recording where that dense spot is relative to aim point. Testing will try to go through one firing of each combination of variables, then if a few look promising do repeated firings of them to confirm.
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It will drive you crazy if you’re not careful. 3 powder amounts times 3 wad choices times 3 shot choices equals 27 years, and this better do each of them 3 times.
I’d start with 1 1/4 ounces of shot of a sort you intend to use and start with an equal volume of powder.
Then various wad combos. That’s 3 test shots. Times 3 is 9. Then you might start fine tuning the powder amount.
The Skychief load did not give me better patterns. I know - I’m “doing it wrong.” For me, rule #1 is, if it’s easier to do it wrong than to do it right, don’t do it at all. Regardless of how great it world fit others.
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Most importantly keep notes and change only one variable at a time. Unless your lucky, it’s definitely going to take several range sessions. BJH
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One has to wonder how the Colonial's fed themselves with their shotguns considering the lack of cardboard and plastic during that time period. ;) ;) ;)
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One has to wonder how the Colonial's fed themselves with their shotguns considering the lack of cardboard and plastic during that time period. ;) ;) ;)
Good point. I think we are cursed with having experience of better technology. Colonials didn’t think flintlocks had slow ignition times. They were state of the art. They didn’t think their fowling pieces should kill further out with birdshot. They had no exposure to anything superior. So they accepted, I’m guessing, that expedient loading with what was available was better than tossing rocks at birds. ;D
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Keep your targets! with each load written on it notes are fine BUT the targets will show improvements or disasters(lessing results) and no matter how good your memory is you will not remember next season :-\
Paper is cheap shot and powder is not :'(
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Powder measures and how much shot they hold. I don't know where I found this list, but here it is regardless"
Note I included the "drams equivalent numbers. They are quite close. Modern shells list Drams Equivalent. 1 dram - 27.3gr.
Pdr Shot ++dram equiv. rounded - close enough.
50gr 3/4oz--------2
60gr 7/8oz--------2 1/4
70gr. 1oz----------2 1/2
80gr. 1 1/8oz-----3
90gr. 1 1/4oz-----3 1/4
100gr 1 3/8oz-----3 1/2 (96gr) 102gr. 3 3/4drams
110gr 1 1/2oz-----4
120gr 1 5/8oz-----4 1/2 (4.4drams)
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One has to wonder how the Colonial's fed themselves with their shotguns considering the lack of cardboard and plastic during that time period. ;) ;) ;)
LOL - if you want to get better accuracy or better patterns you have to experiment with what's available. THEY actually had devices available that we don't today.
Ever hear of the Ely wire ctg for non-choked guns?
Did everyone have have these devices? No- not everyone in England had them either, but they were known in the USA from visiting English Sportsman as noted in "Firearms of the American West"
Today, by using shot cups, split and uncut or un split, we can replicate "these" things. Perhaps not as well, or perhaps better. That is the whole idea of experimenting.
(https://i.ibb.co/Xx0WWfFX/Ely-Ctg-Explanation.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zz4ffRcd)
(https://i.ibb.co/7xyrLSR8/Ely-Ctg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Cp0VDwMN)
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Buffered shot was brand new in 1830 LOL.
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Yeah - not much is NEW today.
I suggest using one or 2 1/8" cards between powder and shot cup. I think the steel shot plastic cups might outperform soft shot plastic cups.
Some of them are non-split, while others have splits. For longer ranges when using the split cups, one might use an inner circle of post-it note paper.
I am only thinking in terms of having the pattern to start opening up at ranges here-to-for unheard of. (except for in 1830 - LOL) Not warm enough here
for such testing. April for me is going to be quickly unavailable as I get a new knee then- been waiting nearly 18 months.
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Here are some patterning results for your information. Gun is a Kibler fowler 20 gauge. Distance was 25 yards. Weather calm to light breeze, upper 40's F. I bench shot these trying to put the top of front bead right on the plus mark point. Following this initial reply there will be 9 more, within each set I will describe the load, usually only the powder charge varying within each set.
The tabular summary of these results and some notes I have are in the images below. I think this narrows down options for further testing, to see if results are repeatable.
(https://i.ibb.co/M5nG3k2R/initial-patterning-tests.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1JZdwGv9)
(https://i.ibb.co/nMLwg393/misc-patterning-notes.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
image sharing (https://imgbb.com/)
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60, 70 and 80 grain loads of FFg, nitro card, lubed 3/8 cushion wad, 1.2 oz of mixed 7.5 & 8 reclaimed shot, a thin over shot card. The number in the circle is the pellet count.
(https://i.ibb.co/tTBN2Sqr/fp1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ksKrDp4C)
(https://i.ibb.co/KjnDT2Yk/fp2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5WZkbrdy)
(https://i.ibb.co/GfwKBDwB/fp3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6ch3VShV)
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60, 70 and 80 grain loads of FFg, nitro card, no cushion, 1.2 oz of mixed shot, thin over shot.
(https://i.ibb.co/7dmGYQpH/fp4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ksChHJDp)
(https://i.ibb.co/TqrjKv9s/fp5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zHN98nqz)
(https://i.ibb.co/QF2hL6DX/fp6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HDWR6rhX)
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60 grains FFg nitro card, a plastic shot wad (designed for TSS, 20 gauge size, split full length), 1.2 oz mix, thin over shot.
I was barely able to pound this wad down the bore so deleted all further tests with it.
(https://i.ibb.co/QjF9mY91/fp7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2Y7qKcqf)
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60, 70 and 80 grain loads of FFg, 3 of the thin over shot cards, a lubed 3/8 cushion wad, 1.2 oz mixed, 1 over shot card.
(https://i.ibb.co/C52Kqk9v/fp10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SXrw2hm0)
(https://i.ibb.co/zh2h4Hx0/fp11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WWzW2p5Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q7B5vF8y/fp12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9mXMH9wQ)
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60, 70 and 80 grain loads of FFg, 3 thin over shot cards, no cushion wad, 1.2 oz mixed, 1 over shot card.
(https://i.ibb.co/pj4Ksm0R/fp13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QvYHq5bC)
(https://i.ibb.co/pBsLKKp5/fp14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jPxrwwFs)
(https://i.ibb.co/WvCWs4XL/fp15.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4RkZJnLH)
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60 and 70 gr FFg, nitro card, lubed 3/8 cushion wad, 1.57 oz mix, thin over shot card.
(https://i.ibb.co/0RjNfvVx/fp16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wFNHKjrf)
(https://i.ibb.co/s9hwfzJy/fp17.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tpSsGFP8)
THEN, instead of going to 80 grain, I backed down to 60 grain again, this time with a nitro card, NO cushion wad, 1.57 oz mixed and an over shot card.
(https://i.ibb.co/LDDNRvTh/fp18.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4ww1tJbg)
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60, 70 and 80 grain loads of FFg, nitro card, lubed 3/8 cushion wad, 1.55 oz of lead #5, thin overshot card.
(https://i.ibb.co/7tsFnZB4/fp19.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9HQjb1Bt)
(https://i.ibb.co/KcXRV1SP/fp20.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hxyh2qw6)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YyVqwnH/fp21.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7NXMvHYL)
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60, 70 and 80 grains FFg, nitro card, lubed 3/8 cushion wad, 1.3 oz #5 lead, thin overshot card.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y4HVHyJ8/fp25.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rKDXDcqM)
(https://i.ibb.co/23bG7ZKc/fp26.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m5xfCNzh)
(https://i.ibb.co/4wNw3Gj4/fp27.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qL1LVfRm)
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LAST set, 60, 70 and 80 grains FFg, nitro card, 1.3 oz #5 lead, overshot card and on top of it all a sopping lubed (neatsfoot oil) 3/8 cushion wad, Sky Chief more or less.
(https://i.ibb.co/yBgYR1gd/fp28.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wrpwLXpB)
(https://i.ibb.co/N6Dz8xf0/fp29.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4Zvx6WCb)
(https://i.ibb.co/HLYg7TPH/fp30.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zWbfsV24)
Compare this set to the previous set. The difference was moving the lubed 3/8 wad from under the shot to over the top of everything. I may never understand what is ballistically happening here, but yesterday it seemed to significantly tighten the pattern. Though a similar pattern density was achieved in the first set of #5 shot loadings where 1.55 oz of shot was used.
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My take aways:
I will never try to pound one of the plastic wads down the barrel again.
Within any set, where the only variable changing was the powder charge, the pattern results did not vary much.
I did not like fumbling with 3 thin overshot cards as a replacement for the single nitro card.
Lubed 3/8 cushion wads are messy to use, no matter where you use them.
and lastly, a DUH moment, the biggest factor affecting pattern density was how much shot is dumped down the barrel.
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So what is your final load for Turks? How far do you feel comfortable
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I liked the load on target 20. Will test it more. Also will test that same load without the lubed 3/8 cushion wad, just because they are messy to deal with.
If the pattern is repeatable, a density of 1 shot every 1.9 sq.ins. should put plenty into a turkey's vital area, my confidence ok to 30 yards I think.
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I really appreciate you taking the time to do all of this, and to share your results. I have a 16 Fowler that will be done this week and you have given some great insight.
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A good job at pattern testing takes a LOT of paper and pellet counting.
Good job.
As to fit, much depends on actual bore size and wad size. I thought #18 looked
better than #20.
foresterdj, would you please measure those tight wads?
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My personal experience; born out of the K.I.S.S line of thinking is the use of bald faced hornet nests. I simply dump my powder, roll the nest material into a ball thick enough to cover the powder, (about 1/2" thick) and press it down firmly with the rod, then I dump the shot (I use #5 shot)...After that I top it off with enough nest material to hold the shot in place, and tamp it down tight.....I use 60 grains of powder and the same measure of shot in 14 and 20 gauges....At around 20 to 25 yards, off hand, or leaning against a tree, no squirrel or turkey's head is safe...... :D :D :D
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Target 18 is a nice pattern, it was using the reclaimed mix of 7.5 & 8 shot, and I will try it more, with plans to use it for grouse, squirrel, clay birds (singles at skeet when just practicing, maybe trap also). To be sure, that pattern would flatten a turkey at 25 to 30 yards.
I was thinking to use #5 for turkey, and with the 5's I like target 20.
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More follow-up today. From the last batch, I thought I was seeing a tendency for loads without the cushion wad to pattern closer to the point I was aiming at, so I eliminated the cushion wad from today's tests. Today, this seems less the case. Here is the tabular results.
(https://i.ibb.co/Mk7Cqt28/second-patterning-tests.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3mcCtjrf)
Five grouped replies will follow.
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These two were repeats of a load tested last time, 70 gr. FFg, nitro over powder card, 1.2 oz. from the English measure, the 7.5/8 reclaimed shot mix and a thin over shot card.
(https://i.ibb.co/Ngd8RPrn/fp-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HLfWZsCp)
(https://i.ibb.co/fVthqL9t/fp-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4wM6K32M)
Both pretty good.
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Now three using 70 gr FFg, nitro card, measured 1.5 oz of reclaimed mix and an over shot card. So really just a bit more shot, 1.5 oz. instead of 1.2.
(https://i.ibb.co/B2ghQtYP/fp-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F4BQyKdW)
(https://i.ibb.co/qYpctD77/fp-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v4kT7cVV)
(https://i.ibb.co/VcJFhTCm/fp-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RkYXMc6y)
Also pretty good, but low.
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Now switching to #5 lead. F uses 70 gr FFg, G used 80 gr FFg, a nitro card, 1.5 oz #5 and over shot card.
(https://i.ibb.co/fdDv8hzN/fp-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1Gz6sDtX)
(https://i.ibb.co/JwC725NY/fp-G.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rRv6M4gB)
I think these are boarderline to too open for my liking.
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This set I increase the shot load more.
H is 70 gr FFg, I is 80 gr FFg, then nitro card, 1.75 oz. #5 shot and an over shot card.
(https://i.ibb.co/4gf0jN6J/fp-H.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FqWdB7Sn)
(https://i.ibb.co/Swg1XhD0/fp-I.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XxPdZhfp)
For having an extra 1/4 oz of shot, these seem only slightly better, to still borderline too open
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Lastly, though I said I would not shove a plastic wad down again, I did so. When I loaded last time I put the wad in just into muzzle, added shot until full, an overshot card and pushed down. My thought is that pressure on the shot load might have been expanding the wad, like brake shoes, making it load hard. But even shoved down empty it was a hard push. A confirmation to not use these.
And it did not seem to improve the pattern over targets A or B. Also note the wad punched through target in upper left, through paper and backing card board.
(https://i.ibb.co/zhwGWtNX/fp-J.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFGr7xXP)
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From all these tests, the first set over a bench, today sitting hand held, I tried to use the same "pointing" picture, kind of like this.
(https://i.ibb.co/mVyt43hH/sight-picture.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Holding so I am not seeing barrel top, but the front bead and it's base just in view over tang. I am getting about half the shots with good elevation to the point of "pointing" (the black +), but half low, some quite low. Need to work on this more or my turkey shots will be in body instead of head.
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I’d forget 7&1/2’s and #8 shot in my opinion it’s only good for killing mosquitoes, and then only at close range.
Hungry Horse
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Have you had time to hunt?
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The 7.5/8 mix was for clay birds, maybe a grouse, though I do not see how I can swing this long thing in the grouse woods.
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In the spring, MN has a series of weeklong license periods, the first one starts Weds. April 16 this year. You don't need to buy license in advance, so I wait until I have a location with some birds and good weather before I go. Last license period is the end of May.
So that was the long answer, short one is not yet.