AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: rich pierce on March 28, 2025, 11:37:49 PM
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I am working on a group of original fowler/musket/trade gun barrels with the intent of restoring them to use in future builds of composite or parts guns. I’ve started work on 2 and am sharing my process and observations.
After making sure an old barrel isn’t loaded, the next step is unbreeching it. Invariably heat is required. I soaked these 2 in acetone/ATF for a week and neither breechplug would budge. So I hit the breech end with a propane torch and heat until it turns blue then gray on a spot I file on it. Then the plugs come right out.
Barrel 1 is a French fowler or trade gun round barrel with a bit of a sighting plane. It’s about 46” long and .610 right now. Note that in the 1700s on smoothbores there was no shoulder counterbored into the breech. The plug is threaded very nicely but it’s more of a pipe thread arrangement. Plug and breech look good. On both barrels after removing the plug there was a “washer” of baked on hard residue, probably fouling, just in front of the breechplug and attached to the barrel. It crumbled easily.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y4QhwDDD/IMG-3927.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SDyBGQQQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/7d1rGdRS/IMG-3928.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sdVsFd6g)
(https://i.ibb.co/SXc4JYFS/IMG-3926.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rG3Rv8D9)
Barrel 2 is English, round, and has been converted to percussion. As usual, there’s terrible pitting from corrosive primers. This barrel will be more work to restore to use. The plug is buggered up but the threads of the plug and breech are ok. I cannot yet predict whether either barrel will need re-breeching and new plugs. It depends on how far I will have to go with reaming to get a clean bore. That will be the next step. Note the bore is not centered perfectly. That’s common.
(https://i.ibb.co/vCfDtGFH/IMG-3930.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GfGFhL60)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y44PvQP9/IMG-3931.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hxxLp9L5)
(https://i.ibb.co/nswqFgtY/IMG-3925.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6RycknLT)
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The threads on these old blisters is quite amazing.
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That's what I was thinking Daryl, holy smokes the top one is being generous calling it a thread, but if it will get tight it will seal. The taper at the back of the plug will assure that LOL. Makes you wonder how bad they would have to be to fail or conversely how good it actually needs to be to work fine. You have to think both of those barrels have thousands if not tens of thousands of shots on them.
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For comparison, this is a MODERN Indian thread. There were only 3 1/2 threads engaging and all were VERY sloppy, one having only .0025" engagement
and the best one a mere .0225". The other was in between. The threads on these old guns are great when compared. The grey is powder fouling. The groove between
the rear PLATE and the last thread was full of fouling to the top of that last thread.
One other "minor" thing, the OD at the breech is .100" and it has a .750" bore. Might have been 1.1", but I don't think so.
(https://i.ibb.co/xt20TK56/Sea-service-Plug.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v6cGnCzk)
(https://i.ibb.co/HTQJC0g0/Pictures-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jkFpzd4d)
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Any idea what year they date to? And how do you go about determining they are safe to be used again?
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Neat project Rich, thanks for posting about it!
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Rich,
This will be interesting to me.
I tend to clean most old barrels just with emery or such on a rod, as the bores are very often not a true cylinder.
I Have had to resort to fine boring on occasion. With a smooth boring bit sharp one side only.
I don't look for a clean bore as in a new gun, just no great big pits if possible!
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Any idea what year they date to? And how do you go about determining they are safe to be used again?
There are some posts on these barrels over in the Antique gun collecting forum. They seem to date 1760-1800 based on dimensions, form, and proof marks.
So far as safety, they’ve been proofed once. I will proof them again after reaming out and addressing any breeching issues. I’ve used a couple original barrels myself and restored a dozen or so to use (mostly rifles).
One quick and unscientific test is the “does it ring” test. This has mostly been used on old shotgun barrels which are often quite thin on doubles. A thunk is a bad sign. These ring. But the test will be a proof load. I’d be amazed if they are not good.
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I will be following this thread. I have some old double barrels that I have been hesitant to do anything with. Thank you for sharing.
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I always thought the "ring" test was to see if ribs were loose on double barreled guns?
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I always thought the "ring" test was to see if ribs were loose on double barreled guns?
Probably so! But imagine if a barrel went thunk!! :o
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Rich,
What does the ring test tell you? Thanks so much for documenting this.
- Tom
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No loose ribs, no cracks, scars or tattoos. Well, might be a tattoo or two.
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Rich,
What does the ring test tell you? Thanks so much for documenting this.
- Tom
It might be only related to doubles. But if a barrel has a “tink” sound somewhere along its length that’s probably a thin spot where pitting is nearly through. For me the first few passes of an adjustable reamer tell me whether this barrel can be restored with less than 10 hours of work.
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Lack of any ringing could indicate cracks.
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Got it -- thanks!
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Yes, Ring test whether double or single, will tell you if the barrel is sound.
Had one Swedish barrel rang like a wind chime, but a nice deep long tone is very nice, and comforting to hear!
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Hard to tell from the photos but the barrels do not appear to have shoulders at the end of the threads. Is that true or just the photos?
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Hard to tell from the photos but the barrels do not appear to have shoulders at the end of the threads. Is that true or just the photos?
Absolutely correct. They are like pipe threads. They did not typically counterbore smoothbore barrels to a shoulder before threading. Yet the threads are good. I did clean the breechplug up on a very fine wire wheel but that just removed patina.
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That is the same as the short piece of mid 1800's John Blissett barrel I have(19bore).
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Thanks for that comment Rich. I pulled the plugs on three fowler barrels yesterday and none were counterbored. Two were originally flint and the threads on all were in good shape. Assumed all were straight thread - mainly due the way they felt coming out. Will have check to see if they are tapered.
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Re breechplugs,
When fitting them for the last time, (if you know what I mean) warmed stockholm tar on the threads will prevent them ever rusting in place.
Some originals were done this way, and even when the barrel had been used to fill a hole in a hedge for a hundred years or more, with heat the plugs come out easily and the threads still shiny.
Know this from experience.
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Good to know.
Are Stockholm tar and pine tar one in the same? Pine tar can be purchased at equestrian supply stores.
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Re breechplugs,
When fitting them for the last time, (if you know what I mean) warmed stockholm tar on the threads will prevent them ever rusting in place.
Some originals were done this way, and even when the barrel had been used to fill a hole in a hedge for a hundred years or more, with heat the plugs come out easily and the threads still shiny.
Know this from experience.
Sounds like I should get some!
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I think pine tar is close enough and since coming to Canada it's what I use.
Stockholm Tar was the common sort in the UK.
Stockholm might be sticker, but if you heat the plug and breech a bit and apply it, it spreads out for full coverage.
screw it together warm.
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I bought a decent looking British 12 bore single shot percussion shotgun. Looked respectable outside. Bore was badly pitted. I decided that it was worth lining. Ran a .750 reamer through. There were still pits. If the bore was a nominal 12ga, say .730 to start, some pits were deep enough that they were still visible at .750. I installed a 4130 tube, reducing the bore down to .65 caliber. Made the gun a bit heavier, of course. I machined the end of the tube to fit against the breech plug. Cleaned the OD of the tube and ID of the barrel and applied a liberal amount of JB Weld to both. Plugged the end of the tube, and pushed it through from the breech. When the liner was almost seated, I carefully cleaned the threads and screwed in the plug, using the plug to push the liner into final position, seated firmly against the plug. Cleaned off excess JB at the muzzle, and when cured trimmed the projecting tube and crowned the muzzle. Test fired the gun without incident.
I have another barrel I am working up for a matchlock project. Started as a 1717 French musket barrel, converted to percussion and cut back. I stretched the barrel using an o/a welded socket joint. Breech was a mess, cut off the plug. Will ream the bore to .750 and install a liner as above, although a new plug will be fitted.
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Hudnut, sounds like you’ve got the tools and expertise to tackle about any barrel restoration job. Nicely done.
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Pretty cool operation, Hudnut. Well done.
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2 more barrels unbreeched successfully. Same approach; a week in penetrating fluid, then heat, a Rice Barrels unbreeching tool, good vise, and a stout hammer. Same as last time, the threads are very good. Same thin wafer of substance at the breech. Perhaps it’s the Stockholm pitch mentioned above. I’m very impressed with the threads. Seems they knew what they were doing.
(https://i.ibb.co/V0TDgHMw/IMG-3956.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5XLvrYsK)
(https://i.ibb.co/9mbqMGKf/IMG-3958.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mr9HxSZY)
(https://i.ibb.co/8L7k4PVx/IMG-3959.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tTJRPY52)
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A nice enough little single:
(https://i.ibb.co/8qByVsG/IMG-1903.jpg) (https://ibb.co/snPTrRc)
Lined barrel:
(https://i.ibb.co/Z61KXJbC/IMG-1904.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WWpF53R1)
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Reaming the bores of original barrels to restore to working order . I’ve started reaming out the bores of a couple of these original barrels. As someone has mentioned (Feltwad?) the bores on old fowling pieces and trade guns are often tighter in the middle than at the ends. I have no idea how that happens.
Starting situation: the bores are of uneven diameter end to end, as much as 10 thousandths of an inch, before we consider wear, rust, and pitting. There’s a chance there’s a minor dent or two. The goal is to restore a barrel to being worthy of being used in a build.
I’m guessing that a fully equipped gunsmith in colonial times would have a boring and reaming carriage and would start by drilling such a barrel if it was rough enough and there was adequate wall thickness. If in pretty good shape it would only be reamed using a square reamer with a hickory backing, enlarged step by step by adding paper shims between the reamer and the stick.
Adjustable reamers I use adjustable reamers. These are a threaded rod with a shank having a squared end. Between nuts at each end, are blades that sit in grooves. The grooves are deeper at the tip and shallower at the shank end. As the blades are moved toward the shank, it reams a bigger hole. This is accomplished by turning the nut at the shank end lefty loosey to move it closer to the shank. Then tighten the top one down pushing the blades toward the shank end till the blades are once more pushed against the lower nut. For a barrel around 20 gauge I got an adjustable reamer with the range of 19/32” to 21/32”. 5/8” (20/32”) is pretty darn close to 20 gauge.
HSS (highly sophisticated setup): machinists, please look away or hold your noses! I stick a socket onto the square shank of the reamer. Then file a square end on a 3/8” steel rod to fit the socket. I mount the barrel in a vise at one end and rest the other in a saddle at the other end of my bench. Aligned with the bore, I have a chunk of wood with a hole in it to fit the 3/8” rod and center the reamer as it starts. Because the reamer is long, once in, it self-centers. Then I lube the bore with cutting oil or whatever I have and start cranking and advancing with a hand brace. It’s very important to take very small bites or the reamer will hang up.
Progress: at first there’s nothing but red rust being removed. I make 3 passes with the reamer before increasing the diameter. I turn both nuts about 30 degrees while in the rust removal stage. This goes on for a long time and half the bore is not even touched. Every few trips I wipe and inspect the bore. Eventually part of the bore is actually getting reamed and looking like a mirror. The shavings or frass are long and super thin. Now I might be turning the nuts to achieve a larger diameter only 15-20 degrees.
Issues : dents are a problem. Deep ring pits are a problem. The edge of the blades jams against the dent or far wall of a pit. I have to back out and re-approach with a very slow feed. Sometimes I have to decrease reamer diameter a bit. Sometimes the reamer doesnt like to be turned clockwise. It howls and jams. Then I work the brace counterclockwise. It often works better one way than the other. Who knows why?
I’m 6 hours in on a 46”, 20 gauge French trade gun barrel with a partial sighting rib, plus an hour draw filing. The bore is now pretty consistent for 3/4 of its length. There are mirror sections, grubby sections, and pitted sections. I think by the time I get the breech clean and consistent diameter end to end, it will be .640-.650 bore. I can see that it was originally kind of rough. I can see concentric grooves. It was probably drilled and reamed until the roughness was gone, and then breeched and sent for proofing. I’m guessing I’ll need another 4-6 hours. But right now it would not cut a patch if loading a round ball.
Worth it? Well, what would a hand forged fowler barrel cost me?
(https://i.ibb.co/jZ3PvXSB/IMG-3991.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HpGfD8j1)
(https://i.ibb.co/PZmpF6Sr/IMG-3992.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zhncQ4km)
(https://i.ibb.co/KpzFxKxq/IMG-3995.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nN8zMPMc)
(https://i.ibb.co/MyRTGzMt/IMG-3996.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XfzB3nSK)
(https://i.ibb.co/sp35dPwF/IMG-3997.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WNKD43yc)
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Go man, go. Looking forward to seeing this project unfold.
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(https://i.ibb.co/MyRTGzMt/IMG-3996.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XfzB3nSK)
That's my kind of machine, right there! Pure functionality!
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Rich,
I have used these reamers for adjusting choke in modern guns, but stay with fine boring for the old barrels.
My concern is altering the boring, so if a barrel isn't too rough, will use abrasive tape on a rod, and keep it moving up and down the bore.
Not all barrels were bored true cylinder by any means.
Hawker has a chapter on this with measurements, in his "Instuctions".
Al best,
R.
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Rich,
I have used these reamers for adjusting choke in modern guns, but stay with fine boring for the old barrels.
My concern is altering the boring, so if a barrel isn't too rough, will use abrasive tape on a rod, and keep it moving up and down the bore.
Not all barrels were bored true cylinder by any means.
Hawker has a chapter on this with measurements, in his "Instuctions".
Al best,
R.
I can see why, for birdshot, keeping the boring as it is would be important. Here I’m aiming for round ball possibilities where a consistent bore diameter end to end is the ticket. I guess, without experience, that honing with a brake cylinder hone setup could fail to achieve a consistent bore +\- 0.002”. This method has worked well for me in the past. I restored a pretty awful looking 12 bore this way, to a mirror bore. Still planning to use that shorter barrel for a cavalry carbine build.
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To ream that shotgun barrel for the liner, I used a battery operated drill to pull the reamer through.
I have a lathe, but the hand drill worked fine.
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To ream that shotgun barrel for the liner, I used a battery operated drill to pull the reamer through.
I have a lathe, but the hand drill worked fine.
I haven’t figured out how to “pull” it as I don’t have a secure junction between the road and reamer. More of a low friction fit. It’s really cutting well. Today my lovely assistant kept the reamer from entering the threaded breech area as I started from the muzzle, and pushed it back and out the muzzle for half an hour. Rust is completely gone; no more red sludge. 2/3 of the barrel is very clean with a few remaining pits. The breech is still loose but I expect to finish this job with another 3 hours of work. There are a lot of concentric rings in the section not yet cleaned up completely, and I think it was this way when new.
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Do you have a way to actually measure the wall thickness, Rich? Or is it just diameter minus bore, divided by two, for an estimate, and then proof it to see what happens?
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Do you have a way to actually measure the wall thickness, Rich? Or is it just diameter minus bore, divided by two, for an estimate, and then proof it to see what happens?
It’s a “measure exterior and subtract bore” situation. The breech is 1.3”. The muzzle wall at the thinner edge is 0.095” now and I think I’m getting close to done. Looking forward to finishing and re-proofing.
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Bear in mind Rich, that many barrels flare at the muzzle and the thinnest part is some distance back from muzzle.
I expect you took that into account as it's not your first rodeo!
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Bear in mind Rich, that many barrels flare at the muzzle and the thinnest part is some distance back from muzzle.
I expect you took that into account as it's not your first rodeo!
Indeed, but I’ve been bucked off before! There is a chance this could just be for the exercise.
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Watching this closely since I have two I would like to ream and one that just needs to be honed. Got the honing covered.
Based on what I have read, it was common practice to enlarge the bore at the breech and muzzle ends. I have noticed it on a
number of fowlers. The enlarged section at the breech is typically about 6" long. The thinking was that, by having a looser fit at the breech, the forward motion of the shot column would be retarded (blowby), allowing the breech pressure to build higher and, presumably, increase ultimate velocity. I don't recall the thinking behind the relieved muzzle section, but recall it typically being 6" to 9" in length. It might have had to do with either velocity or shot pattern. Although it doesn't seem to make sense, I believe it was velocity. Perhaps related to reduced friction.
Will likely have more questions about your process, but for now:
The connection between the reamer and rod appears to be a loose fit. How do you keep them from separating when withdrawing the reamer?
Have you considered threading the rod and attaching it to the threaded forward portion of the reamer so you could cut in the pull stroke? Have to look at a reamer and not sure that is possible.
Are you using a high quality reamer or one of the cheap Asian imports? I have a set of cheap Asian imports and have experienced severe difficulty with chatter and lock-up. Have since acquired a few good quality vintage units, but have not had occasion to use them. Might have to lightly hone cutting edges.
A comment regarding reversing the direction of rotation: I am not a machinist by any stretch, but do have some formal training in the trade and do have a modest hobby shop. I was taught to never reverse the rotation of a reamer due to the risk of chipping the edge. The edge is supported during forward rotation, but not during counter rotation.
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Watching this closely since I have two I would like to ream and one that just needs to be honed. Got the honing covered.
Based on what I have read, it was common practice to enlarge the bore at the breech and muzzle ends. I have noticed it on a
number of fowlers. The enlarged section at the breech is typically about 6" long. The thinking was that, by having a looser fit at the breech, the forward motion of the shot column would be retarded (blowby), allowing the breech pressure to build higher and, presumably, increase ultimate velocity. I don't recall the thinking behind the relieved muzzle section, but recall it typically being 6" to 9" in length. It might have had to do with either velocity or shot pattern. Although it doesn't seem to make sense, I believe it was velocity. Perhaps related to reduced friction.
Will likely have more questions about your process, but for now:
The connection between the reamer and rod appears to be a loose fit. How do you keep them from separating when withdrawing the reamer? I can’t withdraw the reamer without having my wife push it from the other end.
Have you considered threading the rod and attaching it to the threaded forward portion of the reamer so you could cut in the pull stroke? Good idea. I could thread the rod and use a threaded collar to join the rod and reamer together Have to look at a reamer and not sure that is possible.
Are you using a high quality reamer or one of the cheap Asian imports? American made I have a set of cheap Asian imports and have experienced severe difficulty with chatter and lock-up. Have since acquired a few good quality vintage units, but have not had occasion to use them. Might have to lightly hone cutting edges.
A comment regarding reversing the direction of rotation: I am not a machinist by any stretch, but do have some formal training in the trade and do have a modest hobby shop. I was taught to never reverse the rotation of a reamer due to the risk of chipping the edge. The edge is supported during forward rotation, but not during counter rotation. I’ve always gone clockwise until this reamer started screaming at me. Now it’s just a low growl as it munches. If I threaded the rod I could not go counterclockwise, which is working.
Great to have excellent suggestions. This setup has worked fine for me before. The reamer edges are still perfect. I did stone the edges lightly with a diamond stone in the beginning. Today I’ll have to decide whether to go further or not, and how far. My goal is to do some composite gun builds using some of these 5 barrels I’m working on reconditioning, and make them round ball safe and reasonably accurate. This barrel has an original, during period of use, rear sight so it must have been used with round ball.
Do you know how they managed to ream barrels to inconsistent diameters from breech to muzzle (tighter in the middle)? Step-wise?
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Bluenoser,
The theory behind the slightly enlarged muzzle section was to reduce pressure.
It is pressure that causes problems with shot, so a reduction in pressure could create better shot patterns.
Some of the very best barrel borers used this friction and relief principle, but it was not used for muskets or ball buns.
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I can only guess how it was done. Hopefully, someone who really knows will step in. The muzzle end doesn't seem to present much of a challenge since a tapered reamer could be used. The breech is a different story. I believe they could have used a split reamer driven from the muzzle and with a wedge inserted from the breech end, but may be way off base.
Are you using Asian reamers or better quality Western units?
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Thanks PB. Not at all happy with my deteriorating memory and now have a faint recollection of reading that. Any idea on how the reaming was done?
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I can only guess how it was done. Hopefully, someone who really knows will step in. The muzzle end doesn't seem to present much of a challenge since a tapered reamer could be used. The breech is a different story. I believe they could have used a split reamer driven from the muzzle and with a wedge inserted from the breech end, but may be way off base.
Are you using Asian reamers or better quality Western units? Answered above in bold where I quoted your comment. American made reamers
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Thanks, I overlooked that!
EDIT
I was thinking of a rod larger in diameter than the shaft on the reamer so it could be internally threaded. That would eliminate the need for a sleeve, but you are correct about the inability to counter rotate. Cross pin?? That would not be an issue for me since I would be disinclined to reverse rotation.
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A cross pin would work. I don’t have a working lathe - need a new tail stock on my extremely rudimentary old lathe that can’t thread either. Gotta get the tail stock fixed.