AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: silky on April 05, 2025, 10:49:55 PM
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Good afternoon,
I’m working on waxes to be cast into a complete lock set. Searches here and abroad have answered most of my questions, but a few remain….
1. Any recommendations for good wax material?
2. Do the individual waxes themselves need vents during the investment casting process?
3. A pic or two of lock parts hanging on the tree would be very helpful!
4. I need to carve a new pan as the original is pretty eaten away from hard use and time. If I create a new pan in carving wax, can I just create copies with a mold then attach them to finished lock plate waxes? Or is it better to create a new master lock plate wax (with new pan) and cast it as one assembly? I’m leaning towards the first option because the lock has the name “BARBAR” engraved in it and I don’t want to lose the fidelity and detail of that engraving by molding, modifying, then molding that modified wax… or am I overthinking it?
5. Any best practices for plugging drilled holes in the master? I have messed around with clay and while effective, it’s a bit messy when trying to clean it up. So should I plug these holes in the master, or fill the final wax patterns with wax after making them?
I’m sure more questions will arise during the process. I’m doing this for fun and out of desire to learn the process. Thanks!
- Tom
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First question I have is how many pieces you are wanting to make?
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First question I have is how many pieces you are wanting to make?
Hi Jim,
I’m thinking right now ~5 total sets; once priced out by the foundry, I may adjust that based on what makes most sense.
With all of this, I am open to all advice from guys like you who have lots of experience.
- Tom
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Tom,
Who is casting them for you?
Mike
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That’s not very many pieces for the investment. Hopefully you’ll find a foundry for such few pieces. No, vents not required. With this few of pieces, gates can be added too if necessary.
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Yup, I get it. The foundry folks I have been talking with said they’ll just add these at the end of other projects when they’re pouring the specific alloys. That said, I’ll probably wind up going with as many sets as can fit on one full tree/flask for each alloy. So, the five is probably the low end; just depends on the price breakdown and, even more, how much work goes into preparing and cleaning up the waxes. Again, this is a hobby project; I have time on my hands and the resources to try and, most of all, lots of curiosity about the process.
Thanks for answering my questions, Jim — it helps a lot. Do you have a recommendation on a good wax?
- Tom
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You can get waxes from Gesswein, a jewelry supply company. Carving waxes with different characteristics.
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We use a reddish color wax from Freeman supply. I'm not sure of the product number right this minute. I've heard pink wax that is common for jewelry work does well.
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You can get waxes from Gesswein, a jewelry supply company. Carving waxes with different characteristics.
You can get waxes from Gesswein, a jewelry supply company. Carving waxes with different characteristics.
Awesome, thanks guys!
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I have used the red & the pink. Also some very brittle green ( I think was old). They both melt around the same temp (155 - 170F) and inject between 3 to 12 psi. I had good results at 165F & 8psi. Since you made molds i assume you will be injecting the wax.
Both are pretty tough. However the pink did not seem to like large pieces. Large pieces had some shrinkage with the red.
Both waxes were from Rio Grande. The red wax was not sprue wax. It was casting wax.
I am anxious to get parts back from the foundry!
Keep us posted on your progress.
William
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Great info — thanks, William. It sounds like the red wax is a pretty good one. The Freeman Supply website, mentioned by Jim, has a good breakdown of properties and uses for their line of waxes. The lock I’m working with needs some repairs and build-up in spots, so their purple wax sounds like the ticket for that part of the process.
Please don’t feel like you’re hijacking’s the thread if you’d like to share more information and practices from your experience; the more, the better for all of us.
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Tom,
To answer your initial questions...
2. Do the individual waxes themselves need vents during the investment casting process?
Are you doing the casting? Sounds like you are sending them off. The foundry will add vents it they feel a part needs it when building the tree.
4. I need to carve a new pan as the original is pretty eaten away from hard use and time. If I create a new pan in carving wax, can I just create copies with a mold then attach them to finished lock plate waxes? Yes.
Or is it better to create a new master lock plate wax (with new pan) and cast it as one assembly? No
I’m leaning towards the first option because the lock has the name “BARBAR” engraved in it and I don’t want to lose the fidelity and detail of that engraving by molding, modifying, then molding that modified wax… or am I overthinking it? Yes.
Either carve a new one or make a mold of the old one. I would make a mold with the original, after filling holes with wax,, and after injecting the mold and making a wax part, alter the wax part by filling in or building up areas. After casting you can file/clean up small areas.
5. Any best practices for plugging drilled holes in the master?
You can fill the master with wax to fill the holes..
So should I plug these holes in the master, or fill the final wax patterns with wax after making them? Either, filling the master is cleaner and faster. If the master is correct, all copies will be correct.
Hope this helps.
William
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Silky this is interesting for sure and I am interested in your process, kindly post pics of your wax pieces etc. along the way. I had a short stint in a foundry many years ago, it was certainly a learning experience.
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A couples Q's from another relative newby
Are you hand carving these or making a mold for the waxes from an existing piece? I had contemplated using 3D prints to make either the prototype then the mold - waxes. the upsode of 3D printing is you can scale up 1.5% or whatever the metal shrinkage calculation for your alloy might be.
I have some kilns that I purchased from a retiring person last year and made one into a PID heat reat oven and the other will be a burn out kiln. Want to eventually do some brass furniture (buttplates, triggerguards, nosecaps). But thats on the backburner now as I am skill building my stock blank skills.
Sounds like a great project!
Phil
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Silky this is interesting for sure and I am interested in your process, kindly post pics of your wax pieces etc. along the way. I had a short stint in a foundry many years ago, it was certainly a learning experience.
Hey Dutch,
Yes, I definitely will. I should be getting into it over the next week or so. It will be a learning experience for sure, and hopefully it will help anyone else interested in it.
- Tom
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A couples Q's from another relative newby
Are you hand carving these or making a mold for the waxes from an existing piece? I had contemplated using 3D prints to make either the prototype then the mold - waxes. the upsode of 3D printing is you can scale up 1.5% or whatever the metal shrinkage calculation for your alloy might be.
I have some kilns that I purchased from a retiring person last year and made one into a PID heat reat oven and the other will be a burn out kiln. Want to eventually do some brass furniture (buttplates, triggerguards, nosecaps). But thats on the backburner now as I am skill building my stock blank skills.
Sounds like a great project!
Phil
Phil,
I’ll be making these from molds of an original lock. I’m sure the computer modeling and 3D printing would work, too, and it sounds like you have some experience with that? I’ve been told I’m an “analog guy in a digital world” so molds it shall be for me!
If you get into brass casting, I can send you some info that may help. I struggled mightily at the start but am finding consistent success now… the learning curve is steep but that has made it all the more rewarding.
- Tom
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Silky,
Are you using metal molds ? Or epoxy ? Or rubber ?
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Hi Dave,
I'm going to make the molds with rubber (Freeman's RTV clear silicone). I'd love to hear any thoughts or advice you'd be willing to share. I read your old post about making waxes a few times -- very helpful. I have all the stuff now but just need the time to do it.
This is the lock... almost seven inches long!
- Tom
(https://i.ibb.co/279V70wN/IMG-9286.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PZLXZsRQ)
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I've used this silicone and it needs degassed prior to pouring. You may be aware of this, but just thought I'd mention it.
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Thanks, Jim. I read the post on your blog to get smart on using it — great write-up! And I finally had an excuse to buy a degassing rig…
https://www.jimkibler.net/blog/silicone-mold-making
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Use a pressure pot to assist in eliminating air bubbles as it cures.
Great write up Jim!
William
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Wow! That goes back a while. Forgot all about it... This was actually Katherine's write-up.
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I got a few of the molds made and started shootings wax today. There has definitely been some trial and error to find the right pressure settings and where to cut spots for vents, but I’m pretty happy up to this point. I’m starting with the purple wax which is carve-able so I can clean them up and remold if required before using the red wax for final pieces.
A question for guys who have done this before: should I spend time trying to clean up surface texture or leave that for filing once these become steel? I’m thinking the latter. I want to preserve the pleasant patina of the original lock so I didn’t file or smooth anything before making molds. Any obvious voids will be patched with a wax pen. I get it that it can pay off to make the waxes as good as possible, but it seems there’s a balance since steel is just a little less fragile than delicate wax parts that can be tough to work without breaking or distorting. Thoughts or advice?
My Ghetto Wax Blaster
(https://i.ibb.co/jkKrrL2C/IMG-9452.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SwT33K8k)
A split mold (takes me a while to cut these open)
(https://i.ibb.co/G4GwHhjP/IMG-9453.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TxJXWC5h)
First two pieces ready for touch-up (you can see the surface finish I was talking about — that’s off the original and not wax imperfection)
(https://i.ibb.co/gFXKGZNn/IMG-9454.jpg) (https://ibb.co/prsFgjcm)
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If you want to replicate the original surface finish, this should work fine. We have some wax called “disclosing wax” that is good for filling any defects from the wax injection process.
Not sure if you did this, but I’ve found it best to build up important surfaces prior to pouring the molds. This provides additional material for the building and fitting process.
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Oh cool, I’ll get my hands on some disclosing wax. Thanks!
The concept makes perfect sense but am having a little trouble understanding where I would want to build up material. Can you give me an example or two, Jim?
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From the original part used to make the die to the steel casting, there is shrinkage. It might be an idea to produce waxes that incorporate extra material allowing for fitting. If no provision is made for fitting, the castings will not go together as well as they did in the original. Any sins in the original will be carried over into the copies, only worse.
Here are a couple of trade gun locks I set up many years ago. The lower lock was assembled using castings from my dies. The upper lock uses a lockplate from the Upper Missouri Trading Company completed with my castings. I believe they used the same original lock as I did, borrowed from the Museum of the Fur Trade. The other photo shows one of my locks in a gun; markings were die stamped. The markings in the Upper Missouri lockplate were cast in. My dies were cast epoxy. The springs and frizzens are 6150. Those springs were made over 50 years ago, and are as good as when they were new.
If you have ever seen a John Clark Toronto flintlock, his dies were machined aluminum, with fitted aluminum slides. Beautiful dies, beautiful castings. But the dies were very costly.
(https://i.ibb.co/fGyPS95s/IMG-0806.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FqyjWXMF)
(https://i.ibb.co/mwhnxdN/IMG-0805.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LW9TGBN)
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Parts that you might want to build up are the bearing surfaces on the tumbler. Then one can turn the tumbler to the correct size. Hard to add material later. Usually a couple wraps of masking tape on the original seems to work well to build up the surface.
Or possibly the frizzen & pan where you want to "file to fit".
Hope that helps.
William
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Parts that you might want to build up are the bearing surfaces on the tumbler. Then one can turn the tumbler to the correct size. Hard to add material later. Usually a couple wraps of masking tape on the original seems to work well to build up the surface.
Or possibly the frizzen & pan where you want to "file to fit".
Hope that helps.
William
Exactly!
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Another is the top of the pan and underside of the frizzen. There are a good number of other places as well. Basically anywhere you want to fit one part to another.
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I have seen locks that seem to have the tumbler made from wax.Dead soft steel was the real problem.
I once was asked if I could use aluminum in a lock and I told this man I was aware it existed but no idea about how to use it in a lock and still don't.One of the L&R guys told me years ago that foundries were the big bug in the soup was the indifference of foundries who thought quality control was was and obscene idea.
The idea of high quality parts apparently came from Europe and England certainly brought it to the top of the line with their lock filers.I have had a "blast"copying some of their work.
Bob Roller
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Finding a foundry that is prepared to deal with low numbers of castings and is prepared to work to achieve the desired quality at a reasonable price is a challenge. There are different methods of removing the investment which can affect the surface.
When the castings were made for those trade gun locks, batches of 100 pieces were requested. The foundry had a standing order for 30,000 pieces a month of one part for a single industrial customer. There is a limit to how much time and effort they can put into a project that is insignificant compared with other orders.
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Finding a foundry to make just a handful of pieces is difficult, but if you have any kind of production it's not a problem. I've used three different foundries over time and they've done decent. You really just have to understand the technology and what you are dealing with. We could make fantastic locks just with castings and no CNC. People like to throw around the word CNC and think it's the reason for better locks. In some ways yes as it allows us to make quality locks faster, but it's not necessary. As and example look at the great locks Bob Roller made.
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Jim Kibler,
Thank YOU for the comment on my lock making skills.It gave proof to my comment about what I think of myself as the maker and my opinion of the buyer.Your own work stands out like a goose egg in a bucket of coal and keep it up.
Bob Roller
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Awesome. Thanks for the replies, guys.
I'll wrap the tumbler post with some tape, add material to the pan and frizzen (had to anyway to rebuild the original's worn out one). I'm thinking the hook of the mainspring wear it engages the tumbler nose, and the back of the top jaw wear it fits into the post to slide up and down, too.
The foundry I have talked with has been good to work with so far. I have been very clear since the start that this is a small project and they haven't balked at it. Speaking of, and based on your experiences, are there any specific points I should ask them regarding the process they use to ensure these come out the best they can? An example is the investment removal process that Hudnut mentioned.
Thanks!
- Tom
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Ask them how they remove the casting from the investment. What options are there?
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Don't be too picky if your just doing a few pieces. They are really just doing you a favor. There really isn't much you should have to specify. Most foundries are pretty good. Who are you using? I might know them.
Jim
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I forgot about the locks made by Chet Shoults in Lapeer,Michigan in the 1950's.We thought they were the work of a master machinist but later and by chance,a man who knew about gun locks saw castings ready to ship in a foundry and they were all that was needed to make flintlocks.The cat was out of the bag but who cared.It was a quality lock and I used a lot of the external parts and made locks with them.
The parts became available to anyone who wanted them and Mr.Shoults lost control of the dies that cost $5000 in the early 1950's.
Later a man similar lock was offered by a man with the name Cochran and I bought external parts from him as well.Another assembler of
flint locks was Theodore (Ted)Cole from Wilkinsburg,Pa.He used to come to Friendship but I don't think he ever sold a lock there.He had his springs made by W.G.Sutter from Ruffsdale,Pa who also made Bedford County locks and used torsion bars from Chrysler and Packard cars to make tumblers from.I told him about the easy machining of 1144 for tumblers but he wasn't interested in the idea.Every so often I recall these people and they were part of the story of the revival of long obsolete guns that could have perished as time passed.
Bob Roller
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After reading this thread I wondered - how much would it cost to get a small vacuum/inert gas foundry? If one were interested in doing small scale carbon or stainless-steel casting. The answer is about 30K. That's actually less than I expected. The biggest challenge would be the amperage required. I'm going to eyeball a unit like this over the summer (there is one being installed at U of Akron and I'm out that way fishing in the summer). Won't hurt to go look at one. There are smaller less expensive high temp casting furnaces but they do like 100g and are more for gold, silver, platinum instead of steel. The ones I was looking at were at 1kg and 3-5kg. The 1Kg was the one I was pricing.
dr Phil
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I finished a few more molds tonight and shot some test waxes. Overall, pretty good, but I do have a question….
The sear nose and tumbler notches fit well, in both the original and the waxes. However, the notches and nose, while fitted nicely, are not square and true (I hope the pictures explain it).
Simply put: is there anything wrong with this?
Do I add material and reshape both to be true, or leave them as is? I feel like the former could be opening Pandora’s Box, but also wonder if leaving them will cause undo stress in the internal mechanisms. Of course, this lock is almost 300 years old and still going strong so maybe that’s the answer!?
(https://i.ibb.co/Myn1JSsF/IMG-9474.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qLBg2jdT)
(https://i.ibb.co/Nd8RzmwV/IMG-9472.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1tDcxdHv)
(https://i.ibb.co/FbMgY2Mp/IMG-9471.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MD4M1r4d)
(https://i.ibb.co/5gxbJTfp/IMG-9469.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bMRcG18w)
(https://i.ibb.co/7J0Q1VtN/IMG-9468.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1f4MmKGJ)
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Referring to the trade gun lock photos I posted above... The dies were made using casting epoxy with original parts as patterns. Dies were hard and rigid. Most dies were two piece. The lockplate die had a slide to allow for the cut between the plate and pan arm. Wax was used on parts to create draft, etc. so waxes could be extracted easily from the dies. The dies had provisions for keeping the halves aligned, and were clamped closed with wing nuts. Channels for injection of wax were machined into the dies as appropriate. Warts in the original parts were carried on into the waxes and steel castings. An insignificant example were the marks on top and bottom edges of the lockplate where a vice had left marks at some time. These appeared in the steel castings. Fit and function don't get better in the transition from original to wax to casting.
I would suggest that the steel castings should be at least as good and ideally better than the original parts. Original parts were hand fitted and as you noted, aren't square. Perhaps the dies could be adjusted so that parts could be used more or less as cast, or material could be left to allow for final fitting. If the castings are unaltered reproductions of original parts, there likely won't be enough material to touch up to get the best possible fit.
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This is the conundrum with using original parts as patterns or masters. You're basically following the process used by people like the Rifle Shoppe.
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Yeah, I’m definitely experiencing the pros and cons of these processes. That’s not a negative statement; very positive, actually.
Hudnut, I like your approach and agree that the new product is ideally better than the original. There’s certainly a balance in picking one’s battles, but good lock function is non-negotiable! I may try the casting epoxy on a future project. It sounds interesting.
I have a box of reproduction musket internal components and after some fitting, it seems some Brown Bess components will work very well. So I’m going to play around with that idea today and will report back… probably with more questions!
Thanks guys.
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Here's a photo lifted from an auction of a rifle with one of John Clark's locks. The dies for the waxes were machined aluminum. I had the opportunity to examine them, and they were beautiful. The castings reflected the quality of the dies. They were also removed from the investment with minimal damage to the cast surfaces. My castings, using waxes from epoxy dies made using the originals as masters were certainly usable, but John's were in a different league. Incidentally, John didn't make that rifle; his lock was used by the builder.
(https://i.ibb.co/YBtS9JM9/13aef4109f7f02ca06a8bcd25948efce-Clark.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tpb6fntf)
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Most lock experts will sat that parts cast from originals are too small because of shrinkage. As gunsmiths were born into the late flintlock period things like trigger guards and butts got smaller and thinner . That was from using old pieces for patterns and then using the new pieces for patterns. I have used old pieces for patterns, but prep the patterns by dipping them in poly U to build them up a few layers. That build-up gives you room to file and polish each piece and still arrive at the original dimension. CSW
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Most lock experts will sat that parts cast from originals are too small because of shrinkage. As gunsmiths were born into the late flintlock period things like trigger guards and butts got smaller and thinner . That was from using old pieces for patterns and then using the new pieces for patterns. I have used old pieces for patterns, but prep the patterns by dipping them in poly U to build them up a few layers. That build-up gives you room to file and polish each piece and still arrive at the original dimension. CSW
Polyurethane dip… what a great method! I’ll remember that for future builds. Thanks!
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A bigger update tonight — I got a lot done the past few days.
The lock I’m working off is almost 300 years old and in some places it needs improvement for the final castings to be useable and look good. So I went into this anticipating that some initial castings would need to be reworked then molded again. That’s may not be super efficient but at my experience level what I felt best about. So those pieces were initially cast in Freeman’s purple wax, which is formulated for rework as it is carve-able and does okay with filing/sanding. Here are two examples of re-work…
This musket saw some action (what I wouldn’t give to know when and where!). And it shows. The pan has been eaten away such that it needed to be rebuilt. I started by molding the lock plate as is, then went to town building up the pan area into a massive blob of wax. Using files, knives, and a gouge, I carved out a new one. I’m trying to strike a balance of not leaving lots of metal work on the final steel casting, but also not getting myself into trouble by getting too cute with wax re-work. The new pan is kinda small so I left the frizzen a little beefy so most fitting can be done by filing the frizzen.
Original pan
(https://i.ibb.co/hRbX9fxR/IMG-9289.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VWRH9m0W)
Reworked pan
(https://i.ibb.co/ybX9QGT/IMG-9492.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kWx7Skn)
(https://i.ibb.co/NdQwLfC4/IMG-9493.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0R8Pf12w)
The frizzen spring on the original lock is a bit warped and contorted, but I really like the finial. So, I stuck that finial and screw bolster portion in an open space in another mold by suspending it from above the mold box such that only that part was in the mold (not by design but because the idea struck me right after pouring the silicone for other parts!). I dug through the parts box and found a 1728 Brown Bess spring is very close in all dimensions, but both leaves are longer than this musket lock’s spring. I molded and cast it in some 30-minute silicone then went to work with a knife, file, and wax pen to first shorten the leaves then “weld” the finial to the spring. I’m really happy with how it turned out, especially because I didn’t try to improve the shape but rather kept the original look of hand workmanship (the screw bolster isn’t perfectly symmetrical or in line with the lower spring leaf).
Original spring (top) and TRS Bess spring (bottom)
(https://i.ibb.co/vCJg5N6G/IMG-9475.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LDCbwTXW)
The cast finial from the original
(https://i.ibb.co/gb5Fs0rL/IMG-9476.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kVR6YLGs)
Time to mash ‘em together!
(https://i.ibb.co/Kx4SbQHf/IMG-9478.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9HKScfj1)
The original with one that will go to the foundry. I hope Mr. Barbar is pleased!
(https://i.ibb.co/whZ9Gv9m/IMG-9495.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pj6tVmtF)
I did something similar with the mainspring. The frizzen face was concave from many firings so I “re-soled” it with wax build up then filed it flat. Lots of other stuff, too. It had been a lot of work and tedious at times, but it’s very rewarding to see the final wax come out looking good and knowing it will be part of a functioning lock soon.
With four of the final molds made, I started production tonight. This Freeman Ruby Red wax flows so nicely and fills the mold better than the purple. But it’s way too brittle to be reworked, so the purple has its niche. It sure is nice to sit back and fill molds and see the work in its final state. I almost wish I still drink because a cold beer and shooting final waxes would be a nice evening.
(https://i.ibb.co/RTYvtb3n/IMG-9490.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m5bDdT9s)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZpjhcRQd/IMG-9491.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KpP9Vct6)
No beer but this guy brought me something (he thought was) better while I was opening a top jaw mold!
(https://i.ibb.co/M5JrzbdF/IMG-5421.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CsSgjqLR)
Next up is more final mold pouring and casting. The purple lock plate has gotten a little thinner than I’d like… any recommendations on how to beef it up? I think I have seen very thin sheet wax that can be applied in layers but haven’t found it… anyone know what is called or have better ideas?
Have a good night!
- Tom
(https://i.ibb.co/B2Q5nwvx/IMG-9482.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VYzcw3bZ)
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Freeman Mfg & Supply has sheet wax, high temp, regular, with adhesive and without adhesive in many thicknesses.
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Super impressive work. It also gives a better perspective on what all goes into making castings from an original lock. I have even more appreciation for what Chambers, TRS, Chris Hirsch, Larry Zornes, and others have done.
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Freeman Mfg & Supply has sheet wax, high temp, regular, with adhesive and without adhesive in many thicknesses.
Thanks, Randall. Any idea where to purchase the adhesive-backed stuff? I’m coming up empty unless I buy direct from Freeman but I’m not sure they sell small quantities?
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Super impressive work. It also gives a better perspective on what all goes into making castings from an original lock. I have even more appreciation for what Chambers, TRS, Chris Hirsch, Larry Zornes, and others have done.
Thanks, Rich. Aside from learning the technical aspects, my biggest takeaway so far is much what you said. These castings will turn out to be pretty good but basic, I think, but the work of those guys is in a league of its own. It puts the current prices in perspective, too.
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Silky,
PM me what thickness you are hoping to get. Perhaps I can help you out. Freeman only sells box lots, and that could be $100+.
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While waiting on a shipment of silicone in order to make the last molds, today I fabricated a top jaw screw to mold. I believe it’s very important to use authentic 18th Century period methods and materials whenever possible; sticking to that approach, I chucked into the drill press a piece of clear polyacrylic rod I had laying around and went about shaping it, using the original as a guide. The shank portion is just a few thousandths thicker than 1/4” so after shrinkage, it should require minimal tweaking to fit a standard tap-n-die set, and is plenty long to chuck into a lathe with room to work.
I think it turned out well. It was certainly fun to make.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzjwnCff/IMG-9499.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRTzBLGV/IMG-9503.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYJd7mwL/IMG-9504.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXq9b4cn/IMG-9505.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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It’s all fun so far! ;D Keep the updates coming.
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A top jaw screw generally requires more work to cast than to just make one out of bar, even without a lathe.
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Silky,You have a nice looking bunch of waxes. Are you going to consider selling casting sets to offset your costs?
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Thanks, Clint. Yes, I plan to make some available for that reason and to get another lock “out there.” But I want to make sure they’re quality, first, so I don’t sell folks a bag of steel garbage. If all goes well, I’ll update this post when they’re available.
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Looking for a little help, please…
I molded the final lock plate model (.17” thick) and now the final waxes are ~.03-.04” thinner, resulting in plate thickness around .13”. Do you think it’s the wax or the silicone mold shrinking that much? If so, any recommendations on how to proceed? I understand the metal will shrink a further 2-4% during investment casting. The original is ~.15-16”.
How long do you guys wait to open the filled mold? Maybe it needs to more time in the mold to mitigate shrinkage during hardening?
I knew there would be some shrinkage in this process but losing almost 25% in thickness has me thinking I made a mistake somewhere. I thickened the plate in anticipation but this seems too much.
Thanks!
- Tom
(https://i.ibb.co/cKjzX3tD/IMG-9522.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0pxPV2Zh)
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That seems very excessive to me. I just measured one of my injection molds and a wax shot from a small drawer pull I produced in a previous batch using standard pink injection wax.
The mold cavity measures 1.285" across, and the corresponding wax model measures 1.265", which results in approximately 1.6% shrinkage in width.
For thickness, the cavity measures 0.276", and the wax comes in at 0.273"—about 1.1% shrinkage.
So overall, I’m seeing just over 1% shrinkage in both directions, which is right in line with what I’d expect from this process.
That being said, I machined my mold cavity on a Haas mill and intentionally oversized it to account for both wax shrinkage and the expected metal shrinkage during casting. When working from original parts, you lose that level of control and that has always been a limitation of making molds from existing parts, but you should still be able to get a lot closer than what you stated.
One thing you might try is enlarging your sprues. As the wax cools, it naturally shrinks, and if there’s no supply of fresh material to feed into the cavity you will have excessive shrinkage. That sounds like what you’re seeing. When I make molds, I size the sprues carefully and often include additional material reservoirs to help compensate for shrinkage during cooling. This can make a significant difference in achieving consistent, accurate wax patterns. Also, the temperature of your wax is critical. It takes some time and experimentation to get these things sorted out.
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I agree with 44 henry about the sprue size. For sand casting in brass, I always add a lug to the farthest part of the pattern from the sprue to act as a reserve pool of molten metal. That pool will help feed the end of the casting as it cools and shrinks. Are you going to make the ceramic molds yourself? I have done it but the molds are their own animal and it tends to make a mess.
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Higher wax temperature leads to more shrinkage. Keep this as low as you can for the particular type of mold you are using. Also, higher injection pressure helps. Again, this is dependent on mold type. Finally, keeping the wax open as the part is cooling can help as it creates a source for feed wax as long as the wax sprue or gate doesn't freeze off first. We usually inject with a paste type wax at pretty high pressures using hard molds. I've used silicone in the past, but it's been so many years I don't recall temperatures and pressures we used. We definitely ran the wax at more of a liquid consistency and a lower pressure.
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44-Henry, Clint, Jim,
I went with your suggestions and the waxes are now consistently coming out only ~.01”, so let’s call it a win. I cut some crude reservoirs/vents in key places, and that got me closer in thickness but not where I wanted it. So, the next round added to that change was dialing down the temp (~10-15 degrees cooler than the manufacturer’s recommendation)… good thickness but rippling/wavy surface texture. Finally, the win was complete by dialing up the pressure quite a bit (15 PSI on the gauge but that gauge is very suspect).
After the crucible that was me learning brass sand casting (pun intended), I should have known to add reservoirs. It’s fascinating how much goes on inside the mold between closing, filling, and opening.
Freeman’s website shows specs for each wax, and it was interesting that temperatures not much higher than melting result in much higher flow rates that decrease significantly as temperature increases. The recommended temp for this wax is 160-165 and success here was just a sludge below 150.
Clint, I plan to let the foundry take care of the investment. I’m happy to be at this point and know better than to push my luck.
Another question: regarding gates for the steel casting, do you recommend one or two on the lock plate? Seems most lock sets I have use one on each side of the pan. Again, no experience here and I’d prefer to add it myself instead of the foundry folks, if it’s necessary. And does the shape matter? The one on the plate is round (rod-like) but I have seen many rectangular.
Thanks a ton for your help with this. The lock plates are the last waxes then it will be time to turn wax into steel!
- Tom
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Silky,
The last blast to study gating would be to buy a TRS or a Chris Hirch lock set and study their gate/sprue size and locations
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Clint,
That’s a good point. There is some variation but it seems the lock plates similar to mine use two, so I’ll go with that. All other parts I made copied TRS locations, though most of mine are round in profile and theirs tend to be rectangular… so if that matters I can cut and replace but I’d like to avoid that if it doesn’t matter!
- Tom
(https://i.ibb.co/fzDqq0v9/IMG-9537.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8LYNN8cb)
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Just a minor update to share a technique that may be helpful to others. I strongly doubt this is a new discovery, though…
The original tumbler and sear are rough, so I purchased new machined ones that are very close but significantly thinner. Sheet wax was too soft, even using a fresh X-acto blade, to maintain crisp corners and uniform thickness. So I tapped into my old scale model supplies and tried sheet styrene… couldn’t be happier! It’s attached to the part with thin super glue then cut and filed to shape — it files so nicely. Now the tumbler and sear are ready to be molded.
The styrene and super glue are easily filed/sanded off when done.
Again, probably not original thought but I thought I’d share.
- Tom
(https://i.postimg.cc/6yMBPSXF/IMG-9599.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6yMBPSXF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Js9CVCdY/IMG-9601.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Js9CVCdY)
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Life keeps getting in the way of this project, but over the last few weeks I have fabricated a new lock plate, cock, and frizzen using styrene sheet and files. I wasn’t totally happy with a number of the waxes molded from the original parts and modified waxes; that is largely the result of using a rather rough and beat up lock for this project. But it’s all good because this project is about learning skills and methods.
Big picture: super glue some sheet together, trace/draw the original part onto it, then get at it with files. Here are a few pictures of the frizzen from start to finish. With a complex shape like this, I found it most effective to build it in separate sub-assemblies then glue them together. To achieve symmetrical contours, a bonus of using glued-together sheet is that the seams present as light gray lines that act like contour lines on a map — it shows me three dimensions from a two-dimensional perspective. Look closely at the pic of the front of the frizzen and you’ll see those lines.
Superglue creates a perfect bond and essentially fuses styrene pieces together. It files like plastic, too, making it great for durable touch-up filler. The brown seams are actually colored super glue that is easier to see and file to shape.
Once I’m done with the new parts, I’ll airbrush a thin coat of scale modeling primer to reveal the areas requiring touch-up. Then mold and wax.
(https://i.ibb.co/KjjcLw6k/IMG-9623.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y774yZ2M)
(https://i.ibb.co/cKW3hdb2/IMG-9624.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JWYtjPxr)
(https://i.ibb.co/V0jRRfZ5/IMG-9627.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qLyKKTfV)
(https://i.ibb.co/HfFjQYnV/IMG-9631.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pvmd84wN)
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(https://i.ibb.co/3qWvsqy/IMG-9710.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8p2bBpD)
(https://i.ibb.co/fdhZ8MSj/IMG-9709.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N28f1x3c)
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Creative approach. Seems like you’ll get nice clean parts this way.
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Good afternoon,
I’m working on waxes to be cast into a complete lock set. Searches here and abroad have answered most of my questions, but a few remain….
1. Any recommendations for good wax material?
2. Do the individual waxes themselves need vents during the investment casting process?
3. A pic or two of lock parts hanging on the tree would be very helpful!
4. I need to carve a new pan as the original is pretty eaten away from hard use and time. If I create a new pan in carving wax, can I just create copies with a mold then attach them to finished lock plate waxes? Or is it better to create a new master lock plate wax (with new pan) and cast it as one assembly? I’m leaning towards the first option because the lock has the name “BARBAR” engraved in it and I don’t want to lose the fidelity and detail of that engraving by molding, modifying, then molding that modified wax… or am I overthinking it?
5. Any best practices for plugging drilled holes in the master? I have messed around with clay and while effective, it’s a bit messy when trying to clean it up. So should I plug these holes in the master, or fill the final wax patterns with wax after making them?
I’m sure more questions will arise during the process. I’m doing this for fun and out of desire to learn the process. Thanks!
- Tom
Great job ! I’ve been pratcting some lost wax castings for a while now, getting some lessons from Jess Melot will be at the Rifle Shoppe in the Fall will be happy to share what I’ve learned.
Lately I’ve moved on from the latex molds to metal filled epoxy by smoothon Inc. The frames I’ve been attempting to mill from aluminum stock too, making the mold more sturdy under high pressures.
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Great job ! I’ve been pratcting some lost wax castings for a while now, getting some lessons from Jess Melot will be at the Rifle Shoppe in the Fall will be happy to share what I’ve learned.
Lately I’ve moved on from the latex molds to metal filled epoxy by smoothon Inc. The frames I’ve been attempting to mill from aluminum stock too, making the mold more sturdy under high pressures.
Thanks! I don’t think one could ask for better lessons in making lock molds than Jess Melot. Please do share what you learn!
So how do you make the two-part molds using the metal-filled epoxy? I have a little experience doing that with silicone RTV; one builds half the mold and uses sulfur-free clay to create the non-molded half (I think you probably know what I’m talking about?). Is it a similar process? Example pic attached.
(https://i.ibb.co/nsqYkCNy/IMG-9717.png) (https://ibb.co/Z6RFTmpr)
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Great job ! I’ve been pratcting some lost wax castings for a while now, getting some lessons from Jess Melot will be at the Rifle Shoppe in the Fall will be happy to share what I’ve learned.
Lately I’ve moved on from the latex molds to metal filled epoxy by smoothon Inc. The frames I’ve been attempting to mill from aluminum stock too, making the mold more sturdy under high pressures.
Thanks! I don’t think one could ask for better lessons in making lock molds than Jess Melot. Please do share what you learn!
So how do you make the two-part molds using the metal-filled epoxy? I have a little experience doing that with silicone RTV; one builds half the mold and uses sulfur-free clay to create the non-molded half (I think you probably know what I’m talking about?). Is it a similar process? Example pic attached.
(https://i.ibb.co/nsqYkCNy/IMG-9717.png) (https://ibb.co/Z6RFTmpr)
For the metal filed epoxy molds I use both wooden frames and aluminium. I mill out the center of the frame to the depth i need and cut a ferret at the top.
PVC piping does work for very small parts, cut the pipe into two Equal parts and they make a nice round mold or square one if you can find square PVC on Amazon.
Silicone or rubber molds provide very good details but are generally good for only a few waxes, i found they just don’t last very long.
the aluminum filled epoxy provides equal amounts of detail and with high pressures can make a very good part.
Your most complicated parts are thin springs and lock plates.
Top Jaw Screws if i mold I only mold the top. I tap and weld (not solder) the top on to a 1/4 inch steel bar and cut the threads on a lathe. I
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Thanks, Nick! How does it handle pieces with undercuts, or ones that at least require some manipulation to remove from the mold? I'm thinking of a lock plate with an integral pan as an example; it takes some bending and squeezing to extract the formed wax due to the shape of the pan.
- Tom
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Make the lockplate in a few pieces and join them together. If you have some CAD skills you can also 3D print your parts using castable resin. We do this a lot in our lab. While we have printers that cost thousands of dollars we have some Elegoos that cost only 3-400 and they print at resolutions and sizes that are more more than precise enough for this type of work.
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One way of dealing with undercuts, etc., is to use slides in the mold. Slides are pulled before the mold is opened to remove the wax.
The pattern can also be made or built up to create draft to allow wax removal. Cleanup of the castings will be required.
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So we finally have all the waxes made and ready to ship to the foundry. Most of the individual parts molded sharp and crisp, though I had some issues with the lock plate, particularly the pan. Slicing in air vents helped, but most of the waxes came out with minor distortions. I added wax worts to them individually so there is enough metal to file back to shape on the finished castings; it’s just not as satisfying as pumping out perfect waxes. A fair bit of flattening and filing should make a good frizzen-pan fit, so I’m not too concerned.
To pass on something I learned in hopes it may help someone on a similar project… one issue that gave me fits was the interior side of the lock plate surface cavitating, meaning it had a concave profile when viewed down the side. In the end, leaving the mold plugged into the injector for a full 60-90 seconds provided hot wax for the lock plate to keep sucking in as it cooled, resulting in perfectly flat surfaces. Without it, the wax would shrink inward, resulting in the concave surface.
I went back and made a new frizzen spring, leaving the finial as a large rectangle that can be filed to specific shapes. Similar locks in books and online show a number of shapes, so this will allow some customization of individual locks.
Speaking of those pictures, the black and white one below is from a British museum, showing a Lewis Barbar-made military musket dated to 1720. While the one shown has a more pronounced banana profile, the similarities to the one I modeled are strong, including the unique frizzen finial. So I think these castings will be good for early-to-mid 1700’s muskets of British origin, including so-called “Colonels’ Muskets.’ What are your thoughts?
Time to pack these well and get them on their way. I’m excited to see how they turn out!
- Tom
(https://i.ibb.co/Myrc2BSZ/IMG-9868.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZR5BL2XG)
(https://i.ibb.co/TDCm2sYn/IMG-9869.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PsSwjdFb)
(https://i.ibb.co/1f5hg9zt/IMG-9870.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zhYjMS6T)
(https://i.ibb.co/VY8N4zfx/IMG-9785.png) (https://ibb.co/jkF5XQnz)
(https://i.ibb.co/6cy5jYkt/IMG-9286.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p61pY2SK)
(https://i.ibb.co/h1fYDVhV/IMG-9871.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YTZ0phYh)
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I hope for every possible success in these endeavours.I was in the shop this morning and have had a Hawken cap lock that has been started since 2019.tt's a simple one with no half cock like most of the originals but with closer tolerances and better materials and I found out that standing at the bench making these or any thing else is no longer possible because of lower back spasms.I was hoping to make a few locks over a period of time but that won't happen.Leaving my wife alone in the house is another thing.She has a spinal curvature that is serious and if she falls that can be bad.She forgets to carry her cell phone and being hearing impaired is no help either.
Bob Roller
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Sign me up, but I'll need a template. I noticed that you haven't spotted the holes or planned to cast "in" some of the possible holes, like the square hole in the cock.
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I hope for every possible success in these endeavours.I was in the shop this morning and have had a Hawken cap lock that has been started since 2019.tt's a simple one with no half cock like most of the originals but with closer tolerances and better materials and I found out that standing at the bench making these or any thing else is no longer possible because of lower back spasms.I was hoping to make a few locks over a period of time but that won't happen.Leaving my wife alone in the house is another thing.She has a spinal curvature that is serious and if she falls that can be bad.She forgets to carry her cell phone and being hearing impaired is no help either.
Bob Roller
Bob, I hope you’re able to enjoy some shop time. We’re all very fortunate to have you sharing your knowledge and expertise with us.
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Sign me up, but I'll need a template. I noticed that you haven't spotted the holes or planned to cast "in" some of the possible holes, like the square hole in the cock.
Shoot. On previous iterations of the lock plate, I added a dimple for the tumbler hole. Must have forgotten when I created the new final master. I’ll make a template; may need some help with it, though.
I wasn’t sure about casting in the square hole. What’s your preference? Pros and cons?
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Sign me up, but I'll need a template. I noticed that you haven't spotted the holes or planned to cast "in" some of the possible holes, like the square hole in the cock.
Shoot. On previous iterations of the lock plate, I added a dimple for the tumbler hole. Must have forgotten when I created the new final master. I’ll make a template; may need some help with it, though.
I wasn’t sure about casting in the square hole. What’s your preference? Pros and cons?
Casting in the square hole a bit undersized would help a lot of assemblers get it indexed right.
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Got it. I’ll keep that in mind for the next one. Thanks.