AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Tomahawk on April 20, 2025, 09:19:07 AM
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I have very limited experience working up a cartridge hand load, but I knew what bullet I wanted to use and that I wanted to use a specific powder if possible because my brother-in-law had 3 pounds of it extra that he didn’t have use for, so as long as we could get decent results I would use it. So the only variables we were testing was grains and bullet depth. I understand the most basic rudimentary concept of load development, but I’m looking for some guidance as to where to begin.
Obviously 2 of the most important variables I should test are bullet diameter and powder volume. I normally shoot either 50 grains of shuitzen 3f or goex 2f behind red/white pillow ticking (I gotta get a new caliper, mine bit the dust a while back) and round balls I make myself with the .390 Lee mold that came with my gun, which is a custom .40 with a Douglas barrel and hamm lock.
If you’re wondering why my powders vary, 15 years ago I was in a college fraternity that had a “cannon” that we shot off at football games and I bought 10 pounds so I could shoot it at my family’s 4th of July party that got rained out and it’s been in my dads gun safe ever since. Since I have all that powder anyway my stingy self has been using it when plinking/practicing. I shoot the shuitzen at the monthly club shoots because it seems a bit more reliable. I always prime with the 3f because I have not been able to get my hands on any 4f.
I had planned on ordering some hornady .395 balls, figuring they’ll outshoot my molded .390 and, like with the powder (assuming it will outshoot the homemades) shoot the .395s at club shoots and the homemades be a cost effective plinking practice option.
Up to this point ive had the best luck spit-patching…. Would have hoped to continue that, at least for this load, which I intend to be 25 yards and around 50g… a range load. Later I’ll consider something greased when I make a hunting load with 100+ grains.
So I guess my questions are, how should I approach this? I understand that I should make multiple targets and label each with whatever that specific load is,x brand of powder, ff/fff/ffff, x amount of grains, x diameter ball, x patch and shoot each from the bench. I like the idea of sticking to spit patching because it seems like, after a first fouling shot, that my bore condition would be roughly the same, right? Is there a good reason not to spit patch if it reliably ignights in my gun? Is there any reason to try anything different as far as my patch goes? Seems like everyone shoots pillow ticking…
What variable should I test first? is there anything I’m overlooking? What question should I have asked and didn’t.
Thanks in advance, Jay
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I start with 1 grain per caliber and work up 5 grains at a time until the groups close up. In my .40’s my best target loads are around 45 grains 2F. And .40 grains 3F. Best hunting loads are 75 grains 2F and 70 grains 3F. Any hunting load over 60 grains will be plenty for deer. 100 grains would be ridiculous. The old standard was 1/2 the ball weight powder load, so 45 grains will be a good start.
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Very simple, only change one variable at a time. I prefer the .395 ball in my 40 but that is just me. I would start with 40-45 grains of 3F and work up 5 grains at a time looking at accuracy and patches. That red/white ticking is probably.012-.014 so it might be a looser than desirable load. I do use that patching but with a .395 ball. Once you have found a good load change one variable such as lube, ball size or patching and start all over again. I like load development so I spend more time than most building my round ball load even though I am not a competitive target shooter.
Hope this helps, even a little. Only been doing it for 50+ years so I am still learning.
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Good stuff above but first of all, what dies your muzzle's crown look like? Is it as-received or has it been smoothed up? Without a smoothed crown, you will not be able to easily load snug combinations of ball and patch that will give you the best results from your rifle.
You could do a search here on ALR for "muzzle crowns" to see what I am talking about.
A smoothed crown allows loading snug combinations that do not cut or damage the patch and also allow unlimited shooting without having to wipe the bore. This is because as you load the next one, you clean the last one and fouling never has an opportunity to accumulate.
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Document all 5 or 10 shot groups. Make sure to use the same hold on rifle and sight picture. Only change one variable at a time.
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keep your targets( or photos) with a quarter for scale. you think you will remember but you will not. wright all info on target (when working up loads I don't care where on the target it groups as long as it's tight and REPEATABLE)
(https://i.ibb.co/xtfshwHn/DSC03160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gLP7yQV0)
(https://i.ibb.co/bR6TQzkY/DSC03040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kz5dbFJB)same rifle at 50 and 100 (2 high than moved sights to hit)
(https://i.ibb.co/SXg3GkSf/DSC03775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vxWjRN9X)
(https://i.ibb.co/J0FkGMn/DSC03779.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FNq7yj6) still working on this rifle at 50/100 a little to left if it groups the same next range day I'll then move the sights most group the same at 3 different range days before I move sights
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keep your targets( or photos) with a quarter for scale. you think you will remember but you will not. wright all info on target (when working up loads I don't care where on the target it groups as long as it's tight and REPEATABLE)
(https://i.ibb.co/xtfshwHn/DSC03160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gLP7yQV0)
(https://i.ibb.co/bR6TQzkY/DSC03040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kz5dbFJB)same rifle at 50 and 100 (2 high than moved sights to hit)
(https://i.ibb.co/SXg3GkSf/DSC03775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vxWjRN9X)
(https://i.ibb.co/J0FkGMn/DSC03779.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FNq7yj6) still working on this rifle at 50/100 a little to left if it groups the same next range day I'll then move the sights most group the same at 3 different range days before I move sights
This is all gibberish unless you’re there to explain what it is. I’ve been shooting these things for 45 years and never attempted anything like this. Didn’t need to.
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Don’t overthink it. Put 5-10 more grains than your cal. and shoot it….Ball diameter may vary depending on barrel maker and patch thickness….If your using 70 grains or more consider 2f over 3f…. Knock your sights around or file till you get it hitting where you want at 25, then try 50…. And your done….easy peasy
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I shoot with a handful of guys (the Marsh Boys) who can arguably be called some of the best flintlock shooters in the world. They can have a gun shooting where they want it in about an hour. All offhand Large bull and small bull targets and that’s all. They walk the gun in at 25 yards and fine tune at 50 yards. Like a lot of things these days it’s easy to over engineer a simple project.
Their process along with a lot of practice and great shooting skill has produced a pickup load of national records at Friendship. Keep it simple.
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your right for expert shooters, they have the knowledge base to start from ,
but the posting seems to be from a NEW shooter without the knowledge base to start from .
I make one small change at a time ,shoot 3-5 shots at 50 if it shows promise then 100 (I repeat the 100 to make sure my shooting skill or lack of skill does not infect the results)
all my load work ups are done from a bench to take the me out of the rifle and show what works best out of that rifle
By keeping each target/record it shows how your small changes improve or not your groups
this then becomes your knowledge base for future outings at the range and starting points .
I work up a load then after confirming that it is repeatable (not just a fluke that day) I then move the sights( instead of chasing each load)
It works for me , maybe not for you
If we all had Great mentors, it would simplify the load work up questions.
many of us walk this learning curve alone (and are new to flintlocks)
I started muzzleloader shooting cap locks starting 1982 and flintlocks 2010 after retiring and used the same load work up then/now
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I shoot with a handful of guys (the Marsh Boys) who can arguably be called some of the best flintlock shooters in the world. They can have a gun shooting where they want it in about an hour. All offhand Large bull and small bull targets and that’s all. They walk the gun in at 25 yards and fine tune at 50 yards. Like a lot of things these days it’s easy to over engineer a simple project.
Their process along with a lot of practice and great shooting skill has produced a pickup load of national records at Friendship. Keep it simple.
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Pretty much what I was thinking. I have quite a few rifles that I have never shot of a bench. Offhand rifles I sight in offhand have never benched a fowler.
Same with pistols always sighted them in and worked up loads shooting offhand. The Marsh boys are legendary. I'm not saying I have their abilities, but I hold my own.
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for new to flint locks there is the learning curve to ignore the flash ,by using a bench it takes one more thing out of the load development
I wish I was a great off hand shooter but age and eyesight at 65 plus will limit my success
(I do love the ring of steel in the silhouette shoots)
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Great advice above. Just keep in mind that if your patches are not 100% intact then great accuracy is impossible regardless of powder charge.
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(https://i.ibb.co/SwXbckhf/CCI06272017-0002-657x1024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KxjdDtMK)
This is how I keep my targets for future reference. FWIW I do all my load development off the bench. I'm testing the load, not me.
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After being in this "game" for many years and having a penchant for extracting the best accuracy possible from a given barrel, there are a few things I have found through experience to be vital to have results that I can live with - and quickly.
The first thing is to smooth the machined crown of the muzzle. Machined crowns usually have about a 45 degree angled cut from outside the groove diameter to the bore (tops of the lands).
This 'crown' leaves 2 short corners that the patch and ball must "conform" to before they are fully entered into the bore.
The method I use is either with a lathe or just the end of my thumb pressed into the bore with either 320 emery cloth or 320 wet/dry paper between my thumb and the muzzle's machine-cut crown.
With a rotating motion of the wrist, those sharp machine cut-edges are smoothed. I turn the barrel or gun 90 degrees every 15 seconds or so, so that the "smoothing" is uniformly progressed around the muzzle. What the end result becomes, is a finish at the crown that allows a VERY snug ball and patch to form into the bore, giving a seal on both the bore (tops of the lands) and in the bottom of the grooves.
Once this is done, the actual bore and groove dia. are measured, then a ball (mould) of .005" under bore size is selected, along with 10 ounce (.021" to .022") denim is selected. With .32 cal. I start at 25gr., 30gr. with .36, 50gr. with .40, 60gr. with .45(all 3F, then 80gr. 2F with .50 and above calibres.
I use wet patches for target shooting, mostly WWWF with a tich of Neetsfoot oil (2oz. to a quart). Once on paper at close range, with target at 50, I start load development, going up 5 gr. at a time until the "accuracy" load is found for that rifle and combination. With this process, no wiping is required at any time during load develpment on any given day. Of course, clean the rifle properly at the end of the shooting session.
Muzzle - Stretchman's factory and smoothed muzzle.
(https://i.ibb.co/VcD81w4k/stretchman-s-muzzle-before.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v6m8FXnM)
(https://i.ibb.co/9KypFpN/stretchman-s-muzzle-after.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CCVwkwz)
some smoothed muzzles done by other lads here at ALR.
(https://i.ibb.co/WQHjDJG/100-4477-zpsdb9785d2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z1mD8vQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/LzXCrFvS/Dave-Crysalli-English-Rifle-11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SX4KcjJN)
(https://i.ibb.co/q3wPrMq9/Herstberg-Caplock-Jaeger.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MxL3CDwp)
(https://i.ibb.co/wZgSGz2j/Rich-s-Muzzle-after-Thumb-Treatment.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j9fy0rjs)
(https://i.ibb.co/wZ4fGx2m/Dave-Crysali-Kibler-s-muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KcWJ438v)
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As a hunter, I find shooting off a bench at dots a useless process as one rarely finds shooting benches in the woods with rest pads, and whitetail never have dots painted on their vital areas. For practice I pin a large piece of card board to a stump without any marks on it. Starting at no more than 10 yards I pick an imaginary spot and shoot off hand at it as if it were the chest of a deer.......If I hit with regularity I simply back up 5 yards at a time. If shots start to wander I adjust the sights accordingly. I find for myself that a longrifle simply shoots better and more natural off hand. Their design makes them that way, especially those with long barrels and cast off. I shoot my longbows and recurves the same way. For me dot shooting from a table is not natural and actually makes shooting uncomfortable.....I do agree about sound patches. I can reuse shot patches. That is because My rifle has a good crown and I use at least a .20 patch.
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As both a hunter and a competitive shooter, I find one must develop an accuracy load from a bench, if one wants to be in the winner's circle at rendezvous.
The OP asked about load development, not how to pick a load that's "good enough to hit a deer.
The X-ring on a deer is much larger than most gongs we shoot at. When shooting steel at rendezvous, they come in all shapes and sizes from gophers and bunnies, to fox, deer, coyotes and
even a goose, but NONE have DOTS on them. Having an accurate load developed from the bench, will allow much more accurate shooting.
When shooting from a bench, with any of my guns from .32 to .69, I have found that holding the forend in the same place I do as standing shooting, and resting the back on that
hand on a sand bag, gives me exactly the same point of impact, as standing or offhand shooting.
These "little" tricks help to ensure a positive outcome, whether hunting or shooting targets or steel.