AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on May 03, 2025, 08:36:41 PM
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We've been spending a good bit of time on the Hawken project. Pretty much everything is designed and components are being programmed for production. The first stock should be run in a couple of weeks. There is still LOTS of work to be done, though. I think a fall release is reasonable. Here are a few shots of the completely designed stock:
(https://i.ibb.co/ZR6P6TFm/Screenshot-2025-05-03-131528.png) (https://ibb.co/TDBSBh7L)
(https://i.ibb.co/GfsBYY4y/Screenshot-2025-05-03-131852.png) (https://ibb.co/rKbT88RY)
(https://i.ibb.co/PpkrrB0/test-hawken-render-v5.png) (https://ibb.co/22JFFXH)
(https://i.ibb.co/MxSyJSRX/test-hawken-render-v1.png) (https://ibb.co/Hf4L94rJ)
As an aside, the stock and all components were completely designed inside of our CAD software. No physical models were made, no digitizing or scanning etc. This is a first for us and has been pretty revolutionary for us as a business. This has really allowed us to iterate much faster, resulting in a better product and the whole process has gone much faster as well. I have some additional upcoming kits designed as well.
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Show’s promise. It will sell well I’m sure.
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Quite nifty!
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Looking good.
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Show’s promise. It will sell well I’m sure.
Promise? Ha!
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Great looking gun, Mr K.
I believe I posted here back about 2017 if you came out with a Hawken, I would have to sell my motorcycles and get one or two.
Welllll
Sold bikes in 2018 ,dealt with throat cancer and other stuff
Still hacking on these ol smokies
Halleluhah!
Got money now!
Looking forward to getting at least one.
Thanks for your efforts to keep our lifestyle alive.
Best regards
Dave F 8) 8)
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Is the patchbox authentic to an original rifle?
I have seen several, in person, and in pictures, but I am not sure I have ever seen one quite like that.
Would you offer it without the patchbox?
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Yes, patchboxes are common on original Hawken rifles. They vary quite a bit, but designs like this certainly fit in the scope of original examples. There are several side opening boxes, some oval in shape as well.
I will probably offer the box as an option since it will take a fair bit of work to make. In order to keep the price down I think it will be best as an option.
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Thanks Jim.
I might like it better when I see it on the real rifle.
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Well at a first glance it looks like a very "normal" Hawken. Kibler Kits have the headstart in quality and fit. I guess this one will also be more handy and well balanced as you said. The forestock looks not so bolt... I guess the Advantages are not so easy to see, just handling will convince us?
110% trust from my side, just let me know when pre order starts...
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It will no doubt be a quality kit but it deviates too much from a real Hawken for me, Modern shooters don't want to carry around a 12 lb. rifle so the light weight will appeal to them.
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Simply amazing how the last two images make the rifle look like a real live one!
Bob
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I love the concept. Although I respect the original Hawken as the tool of its time, I appreciate more its efficient design for hunting/ care, for the frequent shooter. Less so because...they are heavy and ...ugly. I love my Lyman GPR for that reason, I am eager to see the design progress...particularly in bringing it to a higher quality finish...like done on the fowler. Tough part is making room for it in my limited gun stable, with a few others needing to go for financing...granted, I dont need two Lyman GPR, and the Pedersoli gpr flinter is eclipsed by my Colonial....
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Fantastic work Jim!!!
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I have made a few Hawkens. None from kits. I have salvaged a couple of kits for friends that were on the way to wrecking them.
The only one that weighed 12 pounds, had a 39-inch .45 caliber straight sided one-inch atf. barrel. The only reason it weighed so much is that I placed a 1/2-pound piece of lead in the butt to help balance it. The one that I have kept is a .54 with a total length barrel of 37 inches including the breech plug.
it is also one inch across the flats. It has a solid under rib. I use a digital scale to weigh my rifles. This one, weighs 10 1/2 pounds.
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Well at a first glance it looks like a very "normal" Hawken. Kibler Kits have the headstart in quality and fit. I guess this one will also be more handy and well balanced as you said. The forestock looks not so bolt... I guess the Advantages are not so easy to see, just handling will convince us?
110% trust from my side, just let me know when pre order starts...
It's hard to explain to those who don't haven't studied these things much. To be frank I could make pretty marginal gun in terms of design and they would still sell. A significant portion of our customers have never really studied original work, nor emersed themselves in high level contemporary work. They really don't understand what separates different levels of work. It's often not about amount of decoration, but shapes forms, designs etc. Things words don't explain well. Let me just say that I approach every kit we make as if I were making a high end custom rifle. There are things that separate an $8000-10,000 rifle from a $2000 gun.
As to this particuar project, I'm very pleased at how it's come together. I think the stock architecture and individual component designs are quite nice and come together very well as a whole. I believe it fits within the context of original Hawken or plains rifles, but is a step up from the average piece.
As to pure function, I think it will be a joy to use. It will handle great and with our careful production, it should function more like a fine English gun.
I hope this explains things a little.
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I can't tell from the pictures, but were you able to get the lock panels to taper properly from front to back?
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I am able to make the lock panels anyway I want. In this case I chose parallel to the bore centerline rather than tapered either direction. I think the rear taper seen commonly on original Hawken rifles is to help accommodate the difference between a large barrel breech and an often ridiculously narrow buttplate. I’ve chose to scale up the buttplate width a touch so it scales well with the barrel size. Further this eliminates the need for the weird stock width tapering hard as the buttplate is approached.
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Jim, do have any idea of a pre order date?
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We’re taking pre-orders, but aren’t taking any money. We’re working hard on this project and fall is still the target. Give Bree a call if you would like to get on the list. Thanks!
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Thanks Jim I'll do that.
Appreciate all you do.
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I'm no expert and think Mr Kibler is on the right track and it'll sell big time. after Hershel House making one I plan on ordering one from Jim
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Is it just me, or does the buttstock look a little too large relative to the forestock both in height and length?
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I see it exactly like HighUnitas the buttstock looks too large relative to the forestock it looks to me a little strange !
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make it flintlock and ill buy a dozen....
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Well at a first glance it looks like a very "normal" Hawken. Kibler Kits have the headstart in quality and fit. I guess this one will also be more handy and well balanced as you said. The forestock looks not so bolt... I guess the Advantages are not so easy to see, just handling will convince us?
110% trust from my side, just let me know when pre order starts...
It's hard to explain to those who don't haven't studied these things much. To be frank I could make pretty marginal gun in terms of design and they would still sell. A significant portion of our customers have never really studied original work, nor emersed themselves in high level contemporary work. They really don't understand what separates different levels of work. It's often not about amount of decoration, but shapes forms, designs etc. Things words don't explain well. Let me just say that I approach every kit we make as if I were making a high end custom rifle. There are things that separate an $8000-10,000 rifle from a $2000 gun.
As to this particuar project, I'm very pleased at how it's come together. I think the stock architecture and individual component designs are quite nice and come together very well as a whole. I believe it fits within the context of original Hawken or plains rifles, but is a step up from the average piece.
As to pure function, I think it will be a joy to use. It will handle great and with our careful production, it should function more like a fine English gun.
I hope this explains things a little.
Hi Jim,
Bree and Kathrine both know me by name. I have assembled many of your kits in the past, both for myself and for others. I am looking forward to building a Hawkin Kit. Each kit you design is far better than the last. My question is, how did you handle the barrel issue? Hawkins are known to be heavy-barreled, at least the original examples I've handled. What are your thoughts on this?
Rick
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Looks great to me, proportionate for the larger caliber barrels. Larger butts are easier to shoulder and shoot without poking or pinching you. If it had a SMR size buttstock you would have to hold it more on your bicep and that wouldn't feel good with a 58 caliber.
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Well at a first glance it looks like a very "normal" Hawken. Kibler Kits have the headstart in quality and fit. I guess this one will also be more handy and well balanced as you said. The forestock looks not so bolt... I guess the Advantages are not so easy to see, just handling will convince us?
110% trust from my side, just let me know when pre order starts...
It's hard to explain to those who don't haven't studied these things much. To be frank I could make pretty marginal gun in terms of design and they would still sell. A significant portion of our customers have never really studied original work, nor emersed themselves in high level contemporary work. They really don't understand what separates different levels of work. It's often not about amount of decoration, but shapes forms, designs etc. Things words don't explain well. Let me just say that I approach every kit we make as if I were making a high end custom rifle. There are things that separate an $8000-10,000 rifle from a $2000 gun.
As to this particuar project, I'm very pleased at how it's come together. I think the stock architecture and individual component designs are quite nice and come together very well as a whole. I believe it fits within the context of original Hawken or plains rifles, but is a step up from the average piece.
As to pure function, I think it will be a joy to use. It will handle great and with our careful production, it should function more like a fine English gun.
I hope this explains things a little.
Hi Jim,
Bree and Kathrine both know me by name. I have assembled many of your kits in the past, both for myself and for others. I am looking forward to building a Hawkin Kit. Each kit you design is far better than the last. My question is, how did you handle the barrel issue? Hawkins are known to be heavy-barreled, at least the original examples I've handled. What are your thoughts on this?
Rick
The barrel will be between 31 and 32 inches long and be tapered with a very slight amount of swamp. Not enough swamp that you would even see it without being told it was there, but this will help with grace and weight. There are certainly some short barreled hawken originals as well.
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Make it with a shotgun butt stock and a bar in wood lock as an option and that will make it better looking to some of us.
Bob Roller
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LOL, Bob. ;)
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Give it time boys Jim's working on it!
Does no good to keep wishing for it to fit the image you have in mind. ;)
(https://i.ibb.co/nqHB6Q3q/Gemini-Generated-Image-ykrpf3ykrpf3ykrp.png) (https://ibb.co/dsdtjkbs)
Image I made for entertainment.
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From the grip back.The rest is the result of smoking something really not to be used.
Bob Roller
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From the grip back.The rest is the result of smoking something really not to be used.
Bob Roller
(https://i.ibb.co/jky3RTgH/Willis.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Sgt.Schultz,
I know nothing :D :D.Helmut Mohr told me such a man would be cleaning toilets in the barracks in THAT German Army.We hope all is well with you and 2025 is prosperous.
Bob Roller
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We've been spending a good bit of time on the Hawken project. Pretty much everything is designed and components are being programmed for production. The first stock should be run in a couple of weeks. There is still LOTS of work to be done, though. I think a fall release is reasonable. Here are a few shots of the completely designed stock:
(https://i.ibb.co/ZR6P6TFm/Screenshot-2025-05-03-131528.png) (https://ibb.co/TDBSBh7L)
(https://i.ibb.co/GfsBYY4y/Screenshot-2025-05-03-131852.png) (https://ibb.co/rKbT88RY)
(https://i.ibb.co/PpkrrB0/test-hawken-render-v5.png) (https://ibb.co/22JFFXH)
(https://i.ibb.co/MxSyJSRX/test-hawken-render-v1.png) (https://ibb.co/Hf4L94rJ)
As an aside, the stock and all components were completely designed inside of our CAD software. No physical models were made, no digitizing or scanning etc. This is a first for us and has been pretty revolutionary for us as a business. This has really allowed us to iterate much faster, resulting in a better product and the whole process has gone much faster as well. I have some additional upcoming kits designed as well.
I really like it. The TG is the best design IMO, and its not a dating issue for those who think it might be. The early rifles are generally slimmer than the later ones. And the really late ones like the Bridger are pretty big rifles. This one looks like it should. IMO anyway.
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I might also add that people used to looking at some of the absolute $#@* “Hawkins” (sic) over the past 60 odd years. This might look a little different. But I think its correct as is needed since the originals are all different for a greater or lesser extent. There. Are things that I might like a little differently and I am not a big time Hawken “expert”. But I have a pretty good idea what they should look like. From these “photos”. I see a nice 1/2 stock Hawken that LOOKS like a 1/2 stock Hawken. Not something from across the pond or something made to appeal to people accustomed to think a M 70 Win is what a rifle should look like. Many years ago an extremely talented friend, Ed Webber (he could and did, do first quality English work), made a prototype for the then Western Arms to send to Italy for reproduction. The problem, the Italians could not or would not make it. It had to many contours that they could not sand with drum or belt sander I guess. If you look to the various Italian “Hawkens” and you know the original Ed copied then you see the basic outline in the sloppy wood work. At the time it was impossible to do the fine details by machine. But in the intervening now near 60 odd years this has changed. I am sure Jim Kibler is about to change all this.
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Dan,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the nice review. It’s appreciated. I’ve begun making prototype stocks on our CNC machine and they are doing pretty well. We’ve also begun making other parts too, so things are moving forward. I’ll post more updates when I can.
Thanks again, everybody.
Jim
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Going to be a CRACKER of a rifle, Jim.
Best wishes with it. IT should sell well.
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Dan,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the nice review. It’s appreciated. I’ve begun making prototype stocks on our CNC machine and they are doing pretty well. We’ve also begun making other parts too, so things are moving forward. I’ll post more updates when I can.
Thanks again, everybody.
Jim
Jim, if I were looking for my own fancy wood to send to you, what dimensions would you need for your new Hawken to work in your CNC machine? I've got a line on a spectacular piece of wood, but I don't want to buy it if it won't work.
Thanks!
Martin
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Dan,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the nice review. It’s appreciated. I’ve begun making prototype stocks on our CNC machine and they are doing pretty well. We’ve also begun making other parts too, so things are moving forward. I’ll post more updates when I can.
Thanks again, everybody.
Jim
I saw somewhere recently you mentioned an updated sale launch timeline but can't remember what it was. What month do you expect these to start selling?
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Can't understand folks poo pooing on this endeavor of Jims regardless...Unless you handled many originals, measured, built the same, how could you qualify as an expert and say the drawing doesn't look right??? Heck, no two originals are the same, both half stocks or full. Jim gives folks not overly blessed with a shop full of tools or talent a way of building a muzzleloader and making a nice looking I did that rifle.
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Here’s a few shots of a stock I ran the other day. Still some tweaking, but it’s getting there.
(https://i.ibb.co/mrXb3xQ3/IMG-0202.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dsLjRhnR)
(https://i.ibb.co/S7vnqz64/IMG-0201.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4gNTBHFn)
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Why are you using such nice looking wood for tests... :-[
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Well, I pulled a scrap chunk out from the bin that had a bark inclusion and it luckily cleaned up. I've found that with this sort of thing sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. This is a nice piece of hard maple.
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Hi Jim,
May I suggest that you make the rifle uniquely 'Kibler' by adding a side plate or cheek inlay? As it sits, it looks so cookie-cutter.
I apologise if I'm offending you. Not my intention.
Rick
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No offense taken. I don’t think it is at all cookie cutter, though. I think the lines and shaping are pretty good, especially when compared to the vast majority of Hawkens, old or new. I’ll probably add an optional oval cheek inlay as well, perhaps with optional engraving. Funny thing is that you can’t please everyone. Some would like it to have more of my style, while others can’t stand anything that deviates from original designs in the slightest. In the end people are going to get what I like and am happy to produce. I’ve worked hard at this stuff for decades, gained a decent reputation think I’m qualified to design more than most.
Sorry for the rant. Again please know I didn’t take any offense, but just decided to get on a soapbox.
Jim
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I don't think it's cookie cutter at all. It's unique in my opinion. The lines are good. It's definitely better looking than most Italian or Spanish rifles.
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Thanks, but that’s not a very high bar.😉
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More like a trip hazard than a bar ;D
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Why are you using such nice looking wood for tests... :-[
What I thought.
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I have never seen an engraved Hawken???
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Look at any of the reference material on original Hawkens. Quite a number are engrave to some degree. This is very common. I would suggest people forget about what they have learned from modern recreations.
If they have a cheek inlay there is engraving. Locks commonly have engraving. Sometimes standing breaches have engraving. Oftentimes patchboxes are engraved as well.
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I like Hawkens. I’ve been lucky enough to have handled a few originals and see a bunch more that I couldn’t touch. I have most of the books on them. In the winter of 1979 - ‘80 I put together a Green River Rifle Works Hawken “kit”. 34 inch 54 caliber barrel and a weight of 11 1/4 pounds. I’ve dragged that thing through the woods for years chasing whitetails and I, for one, really like your idea of what a Hawken can be! What I’m trying to say is that while I know what a Hawken rifle looks and feels like, as has been said there is a wide variance in the details between them. The shorter, lighter barrel, the slightly thicker butt etc. will stand out to some of us aficionados, but as a very useful hunting rifle this will be superb. It will be designed and assembled with precision out of the best materials, but still true to original construction. My prediction is this rifle will make people who have never heard of a Hawken rifle enthusiastic about them. Keep up the good work, Jim!
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I really like what I see Jim The lines of your stock are very appealing to me as a Kibler one time pleased customer- this rifle will be a must have !
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I like the concept for the new Hawken. I had a standard TC in .50 back when I was a young teen. Didn't notice the weight back then, they were not 11 lbs though. But bear in mind most mountain men rode horses and mules. They didn't carry their 11-15 lb rifle, they let the saddle and horse carry it. If I was trapsing through the woods like I did when I was younger, I'd want an Applachian rifle, like Jim's SMR. 7 lbs, it's like a feather.
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No offense taken. I don’t think it is at all cookie cutter, though. I think the lines and shaping are pretty good, especially when compared to the vast majority of Hawkens, old or new. I’ll probably add an optional oval cheek inlay as well, perhaps with optional engraving. Funny thing is that you can’t please everyone. Some would like it to have more of my style, while others can’t stand anything that deviates from original designs in the slightest. In the end people are going to get what I like and am happy to produce. I’ve worked hard at this stuff for decades, gained a decent reputation think I’m qualified to design more than most.
Sorry for the rant. Again please know I didn’t take any offense, but just decided to get on a soapbox.
Jim
Hi Jim,
I think you're exactly correct. Plain is the way to go with options. As you stated, "You can't please everyone". Do what you do best and run with it. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished gun.
Rick
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At the Computer generated Pictures it looks like the fore hand stock is very slim... Like a triangel, tip down .. and the Buttstock relative strong. Could you may be show a Picture from the down site, maybe standing... I just like to get an Impression how it will feel
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It’s all well shaped and nicely proportioned.
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Does the lock in the new ones have a 2 position tumbler with "fly" or the old fully cocked to fire? The quality of the lock and trigger will be top of the line so no worries there.
Bob Roller
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Yep, it has a half and full cock. I will be using most of the internal parts from our late Ketland lock.