AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on May 04, 2025, 09:22:01 PM
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One of the realizations of running a business such as ours is that the majority of our customers have never really studied any original work and a good percentage don't seem to have an interest in it either. I realize I come to this with an entirely different background, but find this interesting.
I remember Rich mentioning this a while ago and was wondering what others thoughts are? From a personal perspective I would enjoy things more if there was more of an understanding and appreciation for these things, but do understand that everybody has different interests.
So what do you all think? Any ideas to help promote original work?
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I am not sure how to promote the study of original work. There is plenty of resources if someone is interested. Most competition shooters and reenactors are happy if it's close.
Many builders are happy if it's close or follow contemporary work. The top shelve builders seem to be the ones that study original works.
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So what do you all think? Any ideas to help promote original work?
Well, to play devils advocate, people don't need to when they can buy kit rifles with no need to study originals ;).
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I’m not talking about having to, but rather wanting to. Some study even though they aren’t builders.
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I love to study the originals. I have purchased a few original guns in order to study the building techniques and to try to learn how they developed the designs.
As to promoting this, I think showing contemporary and originals side by side is one way. Your kits are remarkable for the accurate portrayal of a gun like and original but not a direct copy. A lot of newer folks don't have reference material or aren't interested in looking at books. YouTube provides most of the education people get now on things of casual and serious interest. If you were show an original and compare and contrast how this are similar and different in a video I think it would be facinating. It would also be enlightening to show the features of originals and how it causes the different styles to be what they are.
Mike
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When I started building in the early 70's the was so little information available. Now we are blessed with tons of good info but only have a small crowd to appreciate it.
There are so many other distractions for people to do and life moves at a much faster pace than it did even just a few years ago. There are many of the younger crowd that are very into guns but most of the interest lies in the tactical rifles and pistols, some are really into the older military guns. There are very few that are interested in the early American guns but there are some. I think it is mainly because the Longrifles are not heavely advertised on very many platforms. On many platforms you can not promote any firearms or very few and those are censored so they get very little attention.
That's why we all have to be ambassador's about the long rifles and promote their historical importance and as an early American art form.
Jim, I think you are doing a great job promoting the long rifle with your kits and products. The KRA and KRF are putting in some good efforts promoting the American long rifle. Both of these organizations were represented at the Annual NRA Convention this past weekend. Mel Hankla ha put up a fantastic Rev. War period display for the KRA and the KRF had a booth to promote the KRA and what it does. We had 4 very nice original rifles and we were handing out flyers right and left and we handed out 100's of coloring books that teaches about the Long rifle and it's history. The kids loved them.
For many years I have set at the shows and listened to many talk about the lack of interst or that the long rifle crowd is getting old and there's no one to pick up the tourch. I for one am not going to set around and cry about it. I am going to do my best as long as the Good Lord allows me to promote the heritage of the American Longrifle, it's beauty and it's historical significance's. The CLA is another great organization that's helping our cause. This forum and the other Muzzle Loading sites help promote the longrifle. We have come a long way over the last 50 years, I remember when all we had were a few books and that was it.
Jim and ever keep up the good work, it will pay off in the long run.
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One idea would be for different folks to periodically post an example of a style of original that has many traits of guns made in that place and timeframe in this forum or in the Antique Gun Collecting forum. Then follow up with how features of Lancaster rifles changed over time.
Example: start by presenting and discussing a Lancaster rifle by Dickert 1770-1790, followed by later Lancaster rifles including Fordney. Then branch into less typical Lancaster rifles with unique features and carving such as Fainot, Newcomer, Fondersmith. This template could work for any “school” or era of interest.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=84690.0
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Bama said it better than I could. Like Mike I have bought originals to study with a thought to making a copy.
Regards,
Carl
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Hi Jim,
You are exactly right that viewing originals is very valuable and the question is why don't more folks do it. Part of the answer is access. You and I and many other established makers have no problem getting invites to view collections and handle museum specimens. Most builders don't have that access and they may view guns in museums and photos but cannot actually handle and examine the guns close up. I spend many days each year inspecting original guns. The first thing I do with a historical project is seek out the originals and examine them in the hand. However, most folks do not have those connections and looking at originals is restricted to seeing them behind glass at museums and shows or photos on the internet. That can be valuable but it rarely provides the details that make or break a historical build. The alternative is to buy the best books showing originals from many angles. Some do that but many of those books are rare and expensive. Those of us who have easy access to many originals are a privileged class.
dave
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The real thing in hand is wonderful and the best, but as mentioned, often not possible. The next best thing are books and images. There was a time that I didn't have any access to see original work, but poured over and studied any resource I could find. I'd guess I've learned as much from this as actual guns in my hand.
Jim
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I don't get to many shows, mostly The Baltimore show and Mac Spencer 's Eastern Kentucky Rifle show and whatever I can see at Kempton. If people can get to them, they will be able to see and handle quite a few original guns. Many times at the Baltimore show and especially Mac's show, I have been encouraged to pick up and examine a gun or several at someone's table, even before I had expressed any interest in doing that. If you ask nicely, and especially if you ask questions about the gun, you will be given permission to pick it up and examine it. It usually helps if the first thing that you do is shoulder the gun. Examine it's decorative features and architecture first. Compliment the exhibitor and thank them for letting you see the gun
This is stuff that everyone who has already posted knows, but maybe it will help someone who is apprehensive about asking.
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One idea would be for different folks to periodically post an example of a style of original that has many traits of guns made in that place and timeframe
To follow up on Rich's comment of seeing examples or originals at no cost, a good source is the Kentucky Rifle Foundation's Facebook page. I know Facebook isn't a favorite place for a lot of people but the Foundation is posting rifles with some brief comments about them regularly. It covers rifles made in Virginia, NC, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, etc.
Take a look and see. Go to Facebook.com and search "Kentucky Rifle Foundation".
VP
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Sometimes an original can't be obtained to copy. All of the great books out there and often even auction photos provide really good source material and data to develop from.
(https://i.ibb.co/Tf8SrLW/22040198-1-med.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NvjP7ST)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZpmV2JRm/22040198-3-med.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pByxhP6y)
Even if the original were on hand to measure, creating a variation that remains true to the original design is difficult. I have attempted to discern how these guns were designed out so that I can develop drawings of variations for different locks, pulls, or barrel size changes.
(https://i.ibb.co/bgHnxjts/Ferg1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mCv7mrp9)
(https://i.ibb.co/8n4vNDrR/Ferg2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SD7Y5Xt1)
(https://i.ibb.co/0RbXxd7X/Ferguson-Layout-from-Twigg-Woodguard-Rifle-Layout.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pBFPS97P)
Mike
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Jim, I owe you an apology. I think some of my remarks helped spark this whole debate between original Hawken rifles and yours. I did not intend that nor did I mean to sound like I was disparaging your work. Your rifles are top notch. I have one of your woodsrunners and absolutely love it. I know it's not a copy of any particular rifle or maker but it's something that could have been and maybe was made by somebody. I feel like your Hawken falls into the same category. If somebody came in and ordered one that way they would have built one that way. You yourself have said your is an improvement on the original. It's lighter, thinner wrist, different butt plate design etc., etc. Now I don't claim to be an expert on Hawken rifles. I am far from it but when I had mine built I bought some books and a set of blueprints that were supposedly made off an original but even it is not typical of what came out of the Hawken shop but there are examples of it. I ordered it without a patch box or entry pipe because some of them did come that way and yes I wanted to have something different than the run of the mill Hawken so I do not have a lot of room to talk. If I did not have mine I would want one of yours. I hope you will accept my apology and I will try to keep my mouth shut from now on.
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One idea would be for different folks to periodically post an example of a style of original that has many traits of guns made in that place and timeframe
To follow up on Rich's comment of seeing examples or originals at no cost, a good source is the Kentucky Rifle Foundation's Facebook page. I know Facebook isn't a favorite place for a lot of people but the Foundation is posting rifles with some brief comments about them regularly. It covers rifles made in Virginia, NC, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, etc.
Take a look and see. Go to Facebook.com and search "Kentucky Rifle Foundation".
VP
Hi VP,
Many folks on the forum post detailed photos of originals. We also have a large photo library of originals available to everyone.
dave
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To expand on Mike's suggestion - Jim, you have a ton of people watching your instructional videos and I think you have a great opportunity to educate some folks - I have seen where a lot of new students in gunmaking classes often seem completely focused on learning the mechanics of building and don't always appreciate the importance of studying original work. I' m sure this seems an odd disconnect to most of us here but it' s a real thing. I'll have example guns and books available in class and oftentimes I'll still have to take people over to the gun rack or sit down with them and open some books. Showing them how and more importantly why to study becomes part of the class.
So how about some videos comparing original guns? Say you have three original rifles of the same school and roughly the same period. One might be a little clunky compared to the others, the next shows improvement, and one is what you consider a great examp!e of when things went right. Go through them and point out the differences and explain why those differences are important. This is similar to an approach we took in a relief carving class you and I taught a while back where we passed out printouts of three carved Shroyer guns that all had similar cheek side carving. One was the most successful, one the least. In a way we were teaching art appreciation as much as anything else and it was great to see people understanding it as we explained the things we were seeing.
I know a video of this nature would require you to either own the subject guns or to borrow from a collector who' d not be offended by these differences being pointed out.
You' d also have an opportunity to offer links to ALR and show some books to people who either don' t read books or are just unaware that longrifle books exist . You might even do a video or two like I described while at a show. I know your business is making kits and not promoting events etc, but I think you are in a position where you could reach a whole lot of people. Not all of them will be interested but plenty of them would be.
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Jim, I owe you an apology. I think some of my remarks helped spark this whole debate between original Hawken rifles and yours. I did not intend that nor did I mean to sound like I was disparaging your work. Your rifles are top notch. I have one of your woodsrunners and absolutely love it. I know it's not a copy of any particular rifle or maker but it's something that could have been and maybe was made by somebody. I feel like your Hawken falls into the same category. If somebody came in and ordered one that way they would have built one that way. You yourself have said your is an improvement on the original. It's lighter, thinner wrist, different butt plate design etc., etc. Now I don't claim to be an expert on Hawken rifles. I am far from it but when I had mine built I bought some books and a set of blueprints that were supposedly made off an original but even it is not typical of what came out of the Hawken shop but there are examples of it. I ordered it without a patch box or entry pipe because some of them did come that way and yes I wanted to have something different than the run of the mill Hawken so I do not have a lot of room to talk. If I did not have mine I would want one of yours. I hope you will accept my apology and I will try to keep my mouth shut from now on.
No worries at all, Hawg. You don't need to offer any apology! Thank you for thinking of me though. This has been something on my mind for many years, but have never really talked about it much. So everything is good ;)
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With the Kibler's abiiity to come up with fine parts the making of a half stock rifle in 54 and 58 caliber with a shotgun butt stock would be a superb hunting rifle in flint or caplock.Tom Dawson made some fine Hawken copies with all the wear and damage seen on some old ones but he said."The best any of us will do is make a representative type".
Bob Roller
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I've always enjoyed making things and been fascinated with how things are made. So it's been intrigued by looking at how things were done back in the day. Long rifle's being an interest of mine. I know all guns basically. But I think the important thing is to know why they did the things they did how they did the things they did and how they got the look. That they did in the processes that they followed in in making the guns. It's always been intriguing to be able to find those clues and notice. The subtle details that make a particular school. Have that look the correct architecture? There are a few that can accomplish that from a block of wood. A lot of the builders use precarved stocks. Gets you a product much quicker, and for those that like to do a lot of shooting and have something that looks authentic. It 'expedites the matter. My interest has always been in taking something from a chunk of wood and creating something that's functional as well as attractive. It has blown my mind out of a group of guys getting together for the gun Maker. Fare only maybe 3 out of 25 will actually pick up an original to examine it. I suppose to talk about you know different projects they have going on and I've always wondered at the fact that there's only so many. Out of a bunch that are really intrigued by looking at the details, and I've always been grateful at least in our area. There are very few originals to be looked at and almost non-existent at any of the gun shows living at the time in the Portland area. The big gun shows at the convention center. There was only 1 or 2 tables that had anything worth looking at and of those may be only 2 or 3 originals that 1 could look at. So I envy those living back East where there's a lot more available to study than we have out here in the West.
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I totally agree with DaveB on this one. The western states are a virtual waste land for middle grade, and lower grade muzzleloading firearm of the past. They mostly just got used/repaired up. High end guns are rarer but seem to fair better as did guns that because they were made to be used back East were functionally worthless out west. A friend found a Henry Deringer rifle in an old house that was being torn down that was one big fat repair. There was virtually nothing on that gun that hadn’t been repaired, or replaced. Muzzleloaders were use a lot longer out on the west coast because even though cartridge guns were known, and available out west, cartridges were often few, and far between. But powder was sold everywhere, as was lead, and percussion caps.
Hungry Horse
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Forgive the intrusion but this is not from a long time ALR viewer, builder, collector. Instead, from someone with that great interest that Jim is asking about.
I am not retired, yet, and I cannot attend weekday shows or travel six times a year to visit them. Even when I do retire I will not have the money to so often, as to the time for that, my wife has hobbies too. So, I have to buy books or hunt online for photos. Quality photos are few and far between. But I am far from the only person I know that will spend two hours downloading auction photos when I can find them, for later study.
The best books are out of print and when found command very high prices. There are DVDs, but it is hard to hold two DVDs up together and compare two rifles. If I could, I might not know what I am looking at. If you could buy books, at a reasonable price (sub $30), that had annotated pictures like those posted by Mattox Forge. I would own several. Maybe a set of books organized by school, with at least some minor explanation/example of the differences between the schools showing side by side photos of the details that make a Lancaster a Lancaster, and not a Bedford. I have found the ALR library a great resource, if you know what you are looking for, and looking at.
In my opinion, my opinion only, the study of originals comes with a high barrier to entry. If there were a more "entry level" way to learn the design/style/history of these American art forms, in small bites, it may gain traction. But like anything else it would be slow and require promotion.
Those are my thoughts from the cheap seats...
DAve
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Dave, it can be done here. All that’s needed is a post asking, “what makes a Bedford a Bedford and not a Lancaster?” Or anything like that.
Also, if one could afford one book and wanted to focus on Pennsylvania rifles, Kindig’s book on Golden Age is the one. It’s old but well organized and has a lot of biographical and historical material and covers a wide range of longrifles. Much has been learned since then but you’ll not find another book that covers this much ground. A beat up one like mine from 1980 ought to sell for about $30. Paper cover, back cover gone.
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Rich, that is why I am here ;^) But who knows this forum exists?
I have been recommended Kindig's book many times, I bought Shumway's first, then the Moravian books as that is where my interest lies. Always looking for hints on what makes a rifle a certain school and I love the discussions on that topic when I find them.
I have seen the suggestion before on this forum for a book that was dedicated to showing the differences, even if it was a high level beginner book, just the basics. "This is a Bedford, see the comb, the butt, the box. This is a Lancaster, notice the lines. Southern Mountain rifles always seem to have these features." Etc.
I would buy that book, hardbound.
DAve
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I don’t get much opportunity to handle originals, and trying to learn from books, this site, etc. is not always easy. It’s difficult for a beginner to look at two different rifles and understand what features go with which schools, and, furthermore, what gunsmiths belong to which schools. Further complicating it is the changes over time.
I’ve thought about trying to make a sort of chart with time on the horizontal axis, and then rows for different schools, listing what some of the common traits for those rifles might be, along with prominent examples and smiths. Maybe this already exists?
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The most valuable resource I have had in the years I have been building rifles,
( since 1972) has been the books which provide not only pictures, but good descriptions and measurements. A number of other books which cover the practical aspects ( tools and their use, for example ) are also very value able . These have provided me with the knowledge to make some very presentable rifles .( Good enough to have others ask me to build for them…… But I make no claims for being an
accomplished builder .). For anyone who would build rifles, I would suggest that the most valuable set of tools you could have would be a selection of a few books which would cover the above mentioned aspects of muzzleloading rifles and their use..
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Re: Jim’s original post. They say you can take a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. This is so true. I am not as keenly interested in long rifles as I once was. I have many interests and tend to completely immerse myself in whatever the current one is.
I have worked on many historical buildings. I am always surprised at how little the people in historical societies or interest groups know about actual construction techniques. I am always trying to find detailed answers and it can be very difficult.
I am particularly interested in Virginia built products. I once took an unknown Simon Lauck smoothbore to the Front Royal longrifle show and could hardly get anyone to even look at it. I was truly puzzled by this.
I am currently trying to find info on something that was so commonplace when I was young that no one even paid attention to it. I guess it was so ordinary that it was just taken for granted by everyone. Now, it is extremely difficult to even find a picture of one.
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I am currently trying to find info on something that was so commonplace when I was young that no one even paid attention to it. I guess it was so ordinary that it was just taken for granted by everyone. Now, it is extremely difficult to even find a picture of one.
AAAAAAANNNNNDDDDDD???????
Don't just leave us dangling in the breeze...
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Seeing and handling antique or Contemporary firearms is one thing. But knowing what to look for in the differences is a whole new ballgame. Being around people who really know makes a world of difference. JMPO
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I am in a small group of guys who are teaching Scouts the basics of Muzzleloading and Black Powder shooting. One of our fellows is an avid collector of antique firearms ( which we often shoot). He puts many out on a display table at the range and encourages the youth to pick up and handle them, under a watchful eye. They get to hear stories of the original long and short guns, made and used from the mid 1700’s up through the Civil War. It’s a great opportunity to allow people to handle and learn about these historic firearms and often leads to some good questions and enliven their imaginations.
(https://i.ibb.co/FLG6QhJH/IMG-2414.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wFDyndCc)
(https://i.ibb.co/FjWyCms/IMG-9463.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gB7fhmv)
(https://i.ibb.co/847rjj2Z/IMG-9404.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qFrNRR9Q)
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Great crowd!
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One of the realizations of running a business such as ours is that the majority of our customers have never really studied any original work and a good percentage don't seem to have an interest in it either. I realize I come to this with an entirely different background, but find this interesting.
I remember Rich mentioning this a while ago and was wondering what others thoughts are? From a personal perspective I would enjoy things more if there was more of an understanding and appreciation for these things, but do understand that everybody has different interests.
So what do you all think? Any ideas to help promote original work?
I think you will find that in any field. Someone with the passion for something to create a successful business is always going to have more appreciation for the inspiration behind the product than a vast majority of those who consume the product. It is no different in my line of work. The architect will always have a greater appreciation for the building than it's owner. It can be a little disheartening and feel thankless when others don't value our work the same way we do, but you can't let that get to you. At the end of the day, what ultimately matters is that the customer has enough appreciation to buy the product, at least from the business man's perspective. The best we can do it to continue to educate and promote. Your website has a blog section, maybe you could expand that to include articles that highlight original work, etc.
Another point to make is that your kits are fantastic, but they make building a gun so much easier than the kits that have been available until now that they are bound to attract those who just want to be able to put together a nice muzzleloader with minimal effort to shoot and hunt with and would otherwise not have the interest or drive to take on building from a blank or even one of the other kits. There are some who might look at Kibler kits as dumbing down gun building, but I do not see it this way. I think your kits are the best thing that has happened to the muzzleloading industry in decades because they are providing entry to the hobby to lots and lots of people who otherwise would not get in. That's not only good for business, but over time there will undoubtedly be many whose "gateway drug" was their first Kibler kit and develop the interest in originals as well as their skills from there.
Here in PA, hunting license sales have been declining for years and the aging population of those who participate in our traditional flintlock hunting season shrinks each year. That is why I love it every time I see someone in their 20s or 30s buy a Kibler kit and get excited about muzzleloading, even if they have no appreciation [yet] for the heritage.
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Hi Jim,
You are exactly right that viewing originals is very valuable and the question is why don't more folks do it. Part of the answer is access. You and I and many other established makers have no problem getting invites to view collections and handle museum specimens. Most builders don't have that access and they may view guns in museums and photos but cannot actually handle and examine the guns close up. I spend many days each year inspecting original guns. The first thing I do with a historical project is seek out the originals and examine them in the hand. However, most folks do not have those connections and looking at originals is restricted to seeing them behind glass at museums and shows or photos on the internet. That can be valuable but it rarely provides the details that make or break a historical build. The alternative is to buy the best books showing originals from many angles. Some do that but many of those books are rare and expensive. Those of us who have easy access to many originals are a privileged class.
dave
Really could not agree more with that. When I got into gun building, I was completely on my own and in fact I still am. I do the best I can learning from pictures in books and online, but that is not the same thing as being able to view and handle an original in person. I've had a couple of opportunities over the years to see originals at events like the 18th Century Artisan Show, but nothing like described above. For may of us, it is not our interest in original works that is lacking, but simply our access to them.
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Jim, I started paying more attention to originals because of you kits, your videos, and your posts on another forum. I read several times you stated "Study Originals" in your posts. You mentioned in several of your videos. I had no interest in buying a Fowler. No real reason other than I had a couple 12ga shotguns and a Colonial. 58 Smoothbore. Then I watched your video on Fowler. Listen to you and Katherine talk about the history of the fowler and you showing us different styles and levels of the Fowler and they're history in the American Colonials sold me. My mind was made up to buy one before the video was over. It made my interest in originals grow. I've studied originals at online sources and I am ordering g a couple books.
I know you're a busy man. If possible put out some more videos and live shows, and keep posting about originals and I'm sure other folks will keep it going.
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I'm a little late to the show here but will add my 2 cents anyway. There are a lot of small shows out there and I attend as many as I can. Examples of these shows are Jim Parkers show in Alabama, the Knoxville show, Front Royal, Winchester VA, Eastern Pa Long Rifle show, and many more that I am probably forgetting. One of things that I notice at these shows is that the attendance is sometimes pretty light. The 18th Century Artisans show has a section for original rifles and they have a large crowd. Most of the people who set up at these shows are willing to share whatever information that they have learned, and many will let people handle their rifles. Several local museums have long rifle displays. I'm not sure that most people interested in shooting or hunting with long rifles really care if their rifle is authentic. Close is probably good enough for them.
I think the Kibler kits have attracted a lot of people into muzzleloading due to their quality and price point. These people may at some point develop an interest in the originals. My question is, how do we help them develop that interest? They don't seem to attend the small shows or purchase the books. Here in the East at least, the resources are there for people to see quality rifles. To me the resources are underutilized. I think the You Tube videos by Jim Kibler, I Love Muzzleloading, the KRF, and photos like Van post on the KRF Facebook site may be part of the answer. That seems to be the best way to get to the younger people.
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There are a lot of people that visit this site. It might surprise you if you only look at posts. I think this site can be a place to introduce people to originals. 700 would be a good attendance at many shows.
(https://i.ibb.co/jkMmhKPq/IMG-4162.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5h8mTDgC)
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There are a lot of people that visit this site. It might surprise you if you only look at posts. I think this site can be a place to introduce people to originals. 700 would be a good attendance at many shows.
(https://i.ibb.co/jkMmhKPq/IMG-4162.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5h8mTDgC)
Great point Rich,
I agree. 600-700 would be an outstanding turnout to one of the Kentucky Rifle shows, most are lucky to get a quarter of that. I would guess that mostly the larger events like the CLA, 18 Century Artisans show, and Gunmakers fair hit or exceed that type of attendance regularly. This forum is a great resource for anyone interested in the long rifle. I look into the museum section quite often. I should have listed this forum as one of the online examples in my earlier post. I understand that the online resource may be the only option for a lot of people and often wonder how we could get the people online to attend some of these shows to see the rifles in person. Pictures and videos can only go so far. I do like your suggestion earlier about posting more original rifles antique section. I will get some more photos taken and do just that.
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I think it helps to point out features of originals that help define their style. Architectural details, furniture used, carving and engraving that is a hallmark of that maker or school and timeframe.
I’m hoping someone will post a Soddy Daisy, a George Schroyer, a JP Beck, a Bucks County gun, a Lehigh, a Deep River rifle, and so on, so we can discuss their unique features as well as architecture that is common to all well-crafted original longrifles. I remember when I didn’t know what I was looking at or looking fur when I saw an original gun. Just thought, “Nice!” The Dixon’s judges used to say, “needs to see more originals” without pointing out what features they weee referring to. It really helps to have things pointed out.
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Rich, Would you suggest posting pics on this thread, the Antique section, or what?
I have a pretty decent George Weiker Attb Bucks county rifle I'd be happy to post.
John
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Here's a John Moll rifle I have if that helps
(https://i.ibb.co/nsNw8s4F/IMG-3572.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yncNBnKr)
(https://i.ibb.co/vCRvRYRy/IMG-3573.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NgbnbSbD)
(https://i.ibb.co/LhJZSxTW/IMG-3574.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HpxH7tcs)
(https://i.ibb.co/JwGVTNyC/IMG-3576.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fzyfWbnQ)
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Another point to make is that your kits are fantastic, but they make building a gun so much easier than the kits that have been available until now that they are bound to attract those who just want to be able to put together a nice muzzleloader with minimal effort to shoot and hunt with and would otherwise not have the interest or drive to take on building from a blank or even one of the other kits. There are some who might look at Kibler kits as dumbing down gun building, but I do not see it this way. I think your kits are the best thing that has happened to the muzzleloading industry in decades because they are providing entry to the hobby to lots and lots of people who otherwise would not get in. That's not only good for business, but over time there will undoubtedly be many whose "gateway drug" was their first Kibler kit and develop the interest in originals as well as their skills from there.
Here in PA, hunting license sales have been declining for years and the aging population of those who participate in our traditional flintlock hunting season shrinks each year. That is why I love it every time I see someone in their 20s or 30s buy a Kibler kit and get excited about muzzleloading, even if they have no appreciation [yet] for the heritage.
I agree with Lone Wolf here. As a guy in my 30s new to this forum I’ve been interested since my parents made the mistake of showing me the Fess Parker Davy Crockett movie when I was 5. Slapped together a traditions hawken kit (very poorly) in college but been busy with education and life for awhile, and just getting back into it. Never fired a flintlock in my life but have a Kibler kit on order, it is the perfect bridge for someone with few skills to build up confidence to tackle a more complex or scratch build later. I think some might overlook original work because we never imagine we’d be able to afford a fine original, but just being exposed to the work and styles can inspire what we might want to build in the future. John Moll just came on my radar from this thread, that is one beautiful rifle. Keep the posts coming!
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Rich, Would you suggest posting pics on this thread, the Antique section, or what?
I have a pretty decent George Weiker Attb Bucks county rifle I'd be happy to post.
John
I think in Gun Building with each topic having its own title to make it easier aside to find discussion of a maker or school. I favor gun building as opposed to in the Antiques section only because we’d like to help builders learn more about originals and what makes certain ones different or identifiable.
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Here's a John Moll rifle I have if that helps
(https://i.ibb.co/nsNw8s4F/IMG-3572.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yncNBnKr)
(https://i.ibb.co/vCRvRYRy/IMG-3573.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NgbnbSbD)
(https://i.ibb.co/LhJZSxTW/IMG-3574.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HpxH7tcs)
(https://i.ibb.co/JwGVTNyC/IMG-3576.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fzyfWbnQ)
Do you mind if I
1) split this post out into its own new topic
2) asked you to comment on what makes it a John Moll ( if you didn’t have a signature) and what era it’s from and so on, for learning purposes?
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The barrel is signed figure the gun is around 1820 give or take it is a smooth rifle 1/2 oct It is believed that the signature may have been out at one point when the metal was cleaned The wood sems to be original finish and it is original flint My friend John Strong AKA utahseabee is familiar with my rifle
(https://i.ibb.co/nNDsSjzg/IMG-3577.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RkCpWczv)
(https://i.ibb.co/kVwth6jC/IMG-3571.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CpYfnsgG)
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"When I started building in the early 70's the was so little information available. Now we are blessed with tons of good info but only have a small crowd to appreciate it."
I agree completely Jim.
One other thing I would like to throw in is that some of the original guns were downright ugly, or had drop or dimensions to make them pretty much unsuitable to modern tastes or use. Over time, and especially with the internet, we can scan many originals, and the pretty ones rise to the top and get reproduced. I am not talking about plain versus ornate, I am talking about ugly and weird versus good architecture. Is it any wonder that Lancaster rifles have been often reproduced? Great looks as well as usable drop.
Just thinking out loud. God Bless, Marc
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The barrel is signed figure the gun is around 1820 give or take it is a smooth rifle 1/2 oct It is believed that the signature may have been out at one point when the metal was cleaned The wood sems to be original finish and it is original flint My friend John Strong AKA utahseabee is familiar with my rifle
(https://i.ibb.co/nNDsSjzg/IMG-3577.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RkCpWczv)
(https://i.ibb.co/kVwth6jC/IMG-3571.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CpYfnsgG)
Nit trying to be difficult, but just wondering what makes you believe this is an original wood finish?
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Jim
If it is a refinish on the wood, it is very well done. More knowledgeable collectors who have handled the rifle did not question the finish other than the cleaning of the metal. The whole rifle s very sound and sharp. I originally thought the tiger stripe was painted on with the finish. But it is not and is the actual wood grain. The stock show no evidence of being sanded. The only comments have been the signature and if it is John 2 or John Jr I was told it is John 2 when I purchased this from an old collector friend from his personal collection. He said it was from an old collection out of New Jersey
I am tempted to shoot it
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The thing that makes me wonder is how pristine the finish is. Hardly any wear and not hardly a scratch or ding anywhere to be seen. If original it’s extraordinarily well preserved. With the metal condition, it makes one wonder…
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Nice rifle, but I agree, even though lightly scrubbed, the metal condition doesn't match the wood condition.
Also, nothing wrong with a refinish. Lot's of guns have had them. But looks best when both wood and metal match condition.
Of course I could be wrong. Been there and done that before!
John
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Maybe people don't want to study original work because they don't yet realize how wonderful antique rifles are? I think they are very exciting, and I support any museums that take the time and space to display them so that others can hopefully share in that excitement. I suppose maybe one roadblock to the study of originals is the idea that anything worth knowing about anything can be found on the internet. I know this idea is pervasive in my generation, and maybe it's permeated its way into others.
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Great lines on that rifle. I think I'd be tempted to pop a couple off as well!
I strongly suspect that to be John jr. In fact, is it just the photo or does it look as though there is a very, very faint hint of the typical lowercase jr following the last 'l' in Moll?
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Eric I think you are correct. There does seem to be a hint of a JR. I never noticed that before Thanks
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The red color is actually part of the finish and not a stain. There is some wear to the finish around the patch box lid if you zoom in. Also the fore end cap is open ended at the muzzle which is typical I am told
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So I got it into my head that I was going to build a tribute rifle to the Virginia Manufactory Rifle 1st model after falling in love with the patchbox and then the story on that manufactory and the role it played in local (VA, WV) history. I found some examples at the museum in Richmond and was quite surprised that I was able to set a day and closely examine, measure, and photograph 3 of them. I figured I would just be looking at them through a glass display but I was hands on the rifles. Now, I probably didn't make all the correct measurements but I got the jist of thngs and was able to find a stock that was in the ballpark in terms of drop etc and got most of the lock and patchbox from TRS. Theirs is cast in steel so I am now trying to duplicate them in brass. Anyway - when I vacation I hit museums and photograph as many pre-cartridge rfiles as I see. Portugal was nice, Spain was nice and I'm headed to Scotland this summer. While I will never likely amount to much as a builder because I am simply not artistic I have thoroughly enjoyed this trip so far.
My only completed build so far outside of Traditions? Kibler Woodsrunner!
drPhil
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So I got it into my head that I was going to build a tribute rifle to the Virginia Manufactory Rifle 1st model after falling in love with the patchbox and then the story on that manufactory and the role it played in local (VA, WV) history. I found some examples at the museum in Richmond and was quite surprised that I was able to set a day and closely examine, measure, and photograph 3 of them. I figured I would just be looking at them through a glass display but I was hands on the rifles. Now, I probably didn't make all the correct measurements but I got the jist of thngs and was able to find a stock that was in the ballpark in terms of drop etc and got most of the lock and patchbox from TRS. Theirs is cast in steel so I am now trying to duplicate them in brass. Anyway - when I vacation I hit museums and photograph as many pre-cartridge rfiles as I see. Portugal was nice, Spain was nice and I'm headed to Scotland this summer. While I will never likely amount to much as a builder because I am simply not artistic I have thoroughly enjoyed this trip so far.
My only completed build so far outside of Traditions? Kibler Woodsrunner!
drPhil
drPhil,
I did the same thing at the VA Museum of History. I was amazed at their helpfulness and willingness to get more stuff out, even one's I hadn't scheduled for the visit. They have a nice collection of those rifles.
I happen to have the TRS castings in brass, but would like the steel ones if you want to swap.
Mike
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I think that a lot of misinformation about stock design and scantlings comes from a full generation of shooters who got into muzzle loading with Thomson Center type guns. My two pet peeves are flat sided fore arms and very wide lock moldings. You might consider creating a line of accurate drawings which included measured cross sections. I know that there are drawings available but the accuracy is perhaps not up to par. I was reading government blue prints in my early 20's and there was no question of what the finished piece would look like.
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I think that a lot of misinformation about stock design and scantlings comes from a full generation of shooters who got into muzzle loading with Thomson Center type guns. My two pet peeves are flat sided fore arms and very wide lock moldings. You might consider creating a line of accurate drawings which included measured cross sections. I know that there are drawings available but the accuracy is perhaps not up to par. I was reading government blue prints in my early 20's and there was no question of what the finished piece would look like.
Eric Von Aschwege has quite a few very accurate blueprints of American longrifles available. Lehighs are his specialty but he has others as well.
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My two pet peeves are flat sided fore arms and very wide lock moldings.
Indeed, I dream of a better world without so many gaudy lock moldings at large.
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Too much wood - i.e. large 'rounded' humps - left between the barrel tang and the upper edge of the lock/sideplate panels will absolutely murder any piece. It's a common mistake made by almost everyone early on, especially if one hasn't had a chance to see either an antique or a well-shaped contemporary arm.
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I’m not talking about having to, but rather wanting to. Some study even though they aren’t builders.
Hi Jim,
It is my personal opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, if one is going to delve into this sport, they should at least know what they are getting into as far as the history and proper operation of the weapon. I've assembled many of your kits for buyers who thought they were going to sit in front of the TV and snap it together. I have been building muskets and rifles since the early 70s, when the only kits that were available were CVA's.
Back then, as close as possible to historical accuracy was the order of the day. I still have, and hunt with, the 1st rifle I ever built.
I think I've gotten off the subject. Well, I got into ML because I've always been a history buff. Many of the people getting into ML today don't even know how to load or shoot the dang things, much less the history behind them.
I do pray that no one gets injured due to a lack of knowledge.
Rick
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For those that can make it, here is a great show for people to see and handle original long rifles. There are always some very nice examples at this show. This is a great learning opportunity as a lot of the rifles can be handled and the show is open to the public. This year's KRF display is Nicholis Beyer rifles. You won't regret it if you attend!
(https://i.ibb.co/BHzLPCf7/Eastern-Pa-Longrifle-show.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LDkSPZ0q)
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I see this with a lot of things. A good friend of mine is a die hard reenactor. He spends so much time focusing on stitching and button location but his firearms and powder horn (which came from a gift shop) look terrible and he honestly cannot see why they do not look right.
Cory Joe
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One way to increase interest in original rifles is to organize regular online presentations or short videos comparing originals and replicas, highlighting the key details that make originals unique. It could also be helpful to create virtual museums where people can view high-quality images and details of original rifles. This would be especially valuable for those who don't have access to museums or private collections.
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It could also be helpful to create virtual museums where people can view high-quality images and details of original rifles. This would be especially valuable for those who don't have access to museums or private collections.
Take a look at this page, here on this forum. https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=21.0
Theres a huge amount of info and pictures on these pages, submitted by forum members several years ago.
Obviously, the best way to get the word out on these old guns is with a social media platform. But the biggest problem is that very few people have any interest in such things.
John