AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Daniel Coats on May 18, 2025, 11:38:14 PM
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Here's what I believe is a Lehigh County gun in the Schimmel or Barn gun style. It has a 43 inch either straight taper or slightly swamped barrel in about .45 caliber bore is probably rifled but rusted heavily. Curly maple stock not shortened 13 1/8 pull no breaks or replacement wood. Does not appear to have ever had a trigger guard. Gun I believe originally Flint but converted to percussion and then the drum hole filled and peened over. Old flint lock is present but not original to the gun. Lock could be repaired to look better but I'm looking for the correct lock.
Give me your thoughts on the who when and where please.
(https://i.ibb.co/wFDRPGzb/PXL-20250427-135602002-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B58tQWC7)
(https://i.ibb.co/LDQ2S0bS/PXL-20250427-140847987-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gbvByrHy)
(https://i.ibb.co/qMtKmdtz/PXL-20250427-135404437-MP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gM5Nt35G)
(https://i.ibb.co/p6HJvzZC/PXL-20250427-121617722-MP-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SDkRXn0q)
(https://i.ibb.co/pcZd6fJ/PXL-20250426-152529580-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RfPcG3z)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1MMgrnS/PXL-20250426-152602456-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QjKKHV2k)
(https://i.ibb.co/cXS4ySxV/PXL-20250426-152658857-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zHTqmTND)
(https://i.ibb.co/9kBQwLDy/PXL-20250426-152651442-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cSR4bHB2)
(https://i.ibb.co/7dqD6mPJ/PXL-20250426-152713695-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8LHwSZqD)
(https://i.ibb.co/sdb8Cx98/PXL-20250426-152740678-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xtXxY9qx)
(https://i.ibb.co/wNgMDr5R/PXL-20250426-152754937-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gM9zsFk3)
(https://i.ibb.co/vCZKV3zX/PXL-20250426-152811222-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mr6Mb9zN)
(https://i.ibb.co/LzQDL88w/PXL-20250426-153529533-MP-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ns3qHbb2)
Gun will be at the CLA show in August either on my table or the table of Allen Martin for display.
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Basic lock, stock and barrel! Thanks for sharing!
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Thanks tooguns!
What I need help with are these questions.
When was it made
Where was it made
Who made it
What lock did it have originally
Who does lock restoration today.(The present lock could be used again either here or another project)
Reply here or message me and we can exchange contact information if needed.
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Very, VERY cool piece. I love the hasty rough nature of the stock shaping, complete with clear tool evidence and 'faceting.'
My speculation would be that pieces like this - especially pieces without evidence of a guard ever being installed - were probably estate pieces following a gunstocker's death. And there are other floating around, not all of which look like this architecture, so it makes some sense to me anyway. There are numerous probate inventories indicating that some of these guys were clearly still working up until the point they croaked, and once everything had been gone through and valued, what then? If there was no son already working in the trade for a direct inheritance, I am assuming that just like today, things would have been sold off piecemeal.
I will say I don't think it's possible realistically to put a name to this. It's too rough and unrefined; yes, it looks Lehigh-ish or possibly eastern Berks, but I think that's about as much as that envelope can be pushed. To try to put a name to it is just pulling things out of thin air and that typically ends up with pure silliness.
I think is likely early 19th century, think Kuntz or John Rupp II type architecture.
The lock that's in it probably isn't so far off, especially if you could get a 'tit' welded on the tail and it blended in properly.
There are many people that can work on this for you but frankly I think Jack Brooks is pretty much who I would go to. He's not going to be cheap either, but it will be right and it will be undetectable. The issue here is how much you want to spend on a bare bones piece like this.
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Thank you Eric I like your evaluation which is much appreciated! Jack is a friend of mine and will be working on this project!
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Love this gun, I'm a big fan of Lehigh and Berks Co guns especially the stepped wrist and cheek piece details.
If Allen has it at Kempton I'll leave my fingerprints all over it.
Eric Ks description "..hasty rough nature.." fits perfectly.
Kevin
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Rifle delivered to Jack earlier this week. :)
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I had a very good friend (now long gone) that built a Bedford very much like this gun. It had one ramrod pipe, a big square hand forged nail ( supplied by me) instead of a buttplate, and no triggerguard. Watching old Tall Pine arguing with people about the safety of a gun with no triggerguard was always well worth the price of admission. I only wish I had gone to Oregon hunting with him, where he killed a deer and got a lecture from a fish cop about hunting in the woods with no triggerguard.
Hungry Horse
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I hope you'll show it again when it's all done.
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Really cool piece Daniel. Looking forward to seeing it in August.
Any idea what the hole in the underside of the forearm just in front of the trigger plate was for? It looks like it goes thru into the barrel channel. Are there any holes in the under side, aft of the trigger plate?
(https://i.ibb.co/rK5FxF3Z/PXL-20250426-152754937-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9mycbchq)
Ron
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That’s where I drill to see thickness of wood remaining beneath the ramrod as I’m shaping the gun. The front extension of the guard covers it.
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That’s where I drill to see thickness of wood remaining beneath the ramrod as I’m shaping the gun. The front extension of the guard covers it.
I do the same, same place.
This confirms, (to me) that this was an unfinished rifle as Eric had stated "estate pieces following a gunmakers death"
All the general shaping done, waiting for final shaping and miscl hardware inlets.
Makes for an interesting story even if its a wrong theory.
Kevin
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That’s where I drill to see thickness of wood remaining beneath the ramrod as I’m shaping the gun. The front extension of the guard covers it.
Yes, and that's present on a whole lot of antiques under the guard just like we do today, unless the guard ends up cutting into the rammer hole on a really thin forestock (also common), so most likely the piece was roughed out and intended to be further finished sooner or later.
I really love this thing! Reminds me a lot of a very similar piece that is or used to be up on the 'shimmel wall' behind the counter at Dixon's. I'm sure many here know it also.
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Are there any holes in the under side, aft of the trigger plate?
(https://i.ibb.co/rK5FxF3Z/PXL-20250426-152754937-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9mycbchq)
Ron
No sign anything was ever there
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Very, VERY cool piece. I love the hasty rough nature of the stock shaping, complete with clear tool evidence and 'faceting.'
My speculation would be that pieces like this - especially pieces without evidence of a guard ever being installed - were probably estate pieces following a gunstocker's death. And there are other floating around, not all of which look like this architecture, so it makes some sense to me anyway. There are numerous probate inventories indicating that some of these guys were clearly still working up until the point they croaked, and once everything had been gone through and valued, what then? If there was no son already working in the trade for a direct inheritance, I am assuming that just like today, things would have been sold off piecemeal.
I will say I don't think it's possible realistically to put a name to this. It's too rough and unrefined; yes, it looks Lehigh-ish or possibly eastern Berks, but I think that's about as much as that envelope can be pushed. To try to put a name to it is just pulling things out of thin air and that typically ends up with pure silliness.
I think is likely early 19th century, think Kuntz or John Rupp II type architecture.
The lock that's in it probably isn't so far off, especially if you could get a 'tit' welded on the tail and it blended in properly.
There are many people that can work on this for you but frankly I think Jack Brooks is pretty much who I would go to. He's not going to be cheap either, but it will be right and it will be undetectable. The issue here is how much you want to spend on a bare bones piece like this.
Any chance this could be a rough stocked gun ready for addition of furniture and embellishments as the customer wished or sold as-is?
If it was mine I’d not have any work done. It’s cool as it is.
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Any chance this could be a rough stocked gun ready for addition of furniture and embellishments as the customer wished or sold as-is?
If it was mine I’d not have any work done. It’s cool as it is.
This is exactly how I see it, and I think the test hole forward of the trigger plate that would ultimately be covered by a guard finial clinches that speculation.
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Does it have some faux striping added?
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Certainly appears so.
(https://i.ibb.co/7tKGyFGz/Faux-stripingjpg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4DQKyQc)
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Jack finished my rifle and it's out for delivery as I write this! It will definitely be at the CLA show. Jack loved the gun and was reluctant to let have it back ;) He said it's the best Schimmel he's ever seen and he's going to make one like it! I'll post a picture later today.
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Gun was likely made near Allentown about 1800 and finished as an inexpensive rifle. Jack Brooks said the customer probably wanted the cheapest gun possible but the builder couldn't help himself by giving the gun great architecture and fully inletting the barrel with three barrel lugs. The faux striped stock proves it was finished as is with a spokeshave. The was a smoothbore. The lock was replaced with a slightly later period lock approximately 1820 vintage maybe in the last 50 years. Jack hand made the internal parts and hammer and replaced the propper two lock bolts but left the lock as a replacement. This is an important part of the rifles history he explained. He also did not drill a touch hole for safety purposes and future generations.
I couldn't be more thrilled with the results!
Many thanks to Jack Brooks!
(https://i.ibb.co/cKrLfc2q/PXL-20250805-163600480-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/35Cz6ySK)
(https://i.ibb.co/67S7WQLv/PXL-20250805-164124370.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S4g43SGQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/xSL6XRkX/PXL-20250805-163623344.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d0MDjzTj)
Come and see at the CLA show
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Thats the "real deal" there. A lot of beauty in the simplicity.