AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: rich pierce on June 12, 2025, 04:32:51 PM
-
My next assignment is to replicate a very plain, simple New England fowler based on one in him Mullins’ book Of Sorts for Provincials. The lock is a set of TRS castings put together by a guy who is able to sort out whatever is necessary. It’s a very big, 7” flat Dutch lock. The barrel is a Rice French model which is a gem. They are making these with a wonderful big breech and rapid taper in the first 8-10”, like so many originals. The gun will have no buttplate or entry thimble, no side plate, and a forged iron guard. Interesting project we are calling “A New England Farmer’s Gun”.
In the book “Of Sorts” it’s on page 73-76. The lock is so long I had to reconfigure my draft “blueprint” because the search is further from the pan than I’ve ever experienced. This lock is going to jar the gun when it is released.
(https://i.ibb.co/RkDj9z4x/IMG-4319.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LXZN8nhL)
(https://i.ibb.co/z94x1PX/IMG-4326.jpg) (https://ibb.co/36CdwSp)
(https://i.ibb.co/SwD1n2KZ/IMG-4327.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1GYpq394)
-
Now THAT's a honking big lock.
-
Now THAT's a honking big lock.
It puts a Brown Bess lock into the “medium sized” category.
-
What a cool project! These are the guns that carved out existence in the woods of New England. I recently had Rice make a custom barrel based upon that very gun; I used calipers and a magnifying glass to establish the taper profile and measurements and Jason did the rest. It tapers .28” in the first foot!
Looking forward to watching this one.
- Tom
(https://i.ibb.co/TxGXH3H1/IMG-9598.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DHFX727Y)
-
What will you use for a lock? And how did you get the dimensions!
-
Not sure on the lock, but definitely something big! Maybe a dog lock? Is that TRS 536 you’re using?
I had to make some assumptions since only barrel length and caliber are listed. I first establish the barrel profile and thickness ratios using calipers (it’s the best I can do without touching the original); these books are great because they provide that top-down view over two pages.
Then I apply the assumptions. It’s .63 caliber and I hate thick-walled muzzles, so using .06” walls the muzzle becomes .75. Now that is the “known” and I use that to work back to the breech, applying the taper ratios calculated. Or one can decide on a breech thickness and work the other direction.
Is it perfect? No, but by gathering lots of data points (every inch on the picture) ratios can be pretty well established. Plotting each measurement on a piece of graph paper then drawing lines through them breaks it down and helps find the average of the points since there is inevitable error using calipers and a magnifying glass on a picture. I can’t remember what it’s called but here’s an idea of what I mean.
It’s pretty fun! And right now, Larry Horrigan is making me one measured from the Lewis fowler on page 97. I have some other profiles from that book if anyone’s interested I’m happy to share.
I hope I didn’t hijack your thread, Rich. Please post updates — these kinds of guns have so much character.
- Tom
(https://i.ibb.co/8gkpHzv5/IMG-9602.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TMySsKj8)
-
Love it. Keep hijacking! Good to know how others approach similar projects.
-
Great project. I used that lock on one and loved it. It is GIANT. Gives any gun a unique look.
-
The Miroku Charleville lock is good quality and big enough to require its own size flints. I’m modifying one right now for a club butt Fowler build.
Hungry Horse
-
The sparks will look like a mentor shower.
-
Oh I love projects like this. Thank you for sharing it with us. Early guns like this for some reason hold quite an attraction for me. I know they are not exactly as “popular” as more refined and decorated guns, but they are my favorite.
I would love to see more books with more examples of guns like these, in addition to Of Sorts for Provincials, Flintlock Fowlers, Battle Weapons of the American Revolution, and Muskets of the Revolution.
Doug
-
Rich,
Great gun!
Great project!
Gauge?
All iron hardware?
Looking forward to seeing it.
Kevin
-
Kevin, 20 gauge like the original. I’ll forge the guard and trigger. The 2 thimbles are round and short and made of brass. It’s a real frugal gun. No buttplate, no entry thimble, no side plate either.
-
Great project/subject matter! 'Looking forward to seeing this one's progress/completion.
-
Very cool, keep us posted
-
This is going to be a fun project to follow, Rich. Thanks for sharing it.
Joe
-
I recently saw an early club butt fowler with 4 nails at the heel to prevent wear when loading. On a long gun one needs to lean it over to load. I’ll ask if the client wants this. I’d like to do it.
(https://i.ibb.co/sJ1YBCmq/IMG-4309.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VpC4KxjT)
-
Nice detail!
-
Oh now that is interesting. Is that fowler published anywhere that you know of? I do love these working man’s fowlers, especially ones that could fit into the French and Indian War or earlier timeframe. I could look at them all day.
Doug
-
I really like that detail!
-
Oh now that is interesting. Is that fowler published anywhere that you know of? I do love these working man’s fowlers, especially ones that could fit into the French and Indian War or earlier timeframe. I could look at them all day.
Doug
That particular north the nails at the heel is not published and I don’t have permission to share more. In time it will be documented online. I am really wanting to use that. I’m still practicing making nails. I made a couple headers. Now the challenge is judging where to cut the nail from the rod to leave the right amount for a head. Practice, practice. First nail rodeo.
-
Rich,
I just finished up a trade gun and used a pile of nails at the butt
the "heal" nails are all fairly short 1/2" but are very secure. I "barbed" the shafts with a cold chisel before driving them home
Can't get my pictures to upload
Kevin
-
Niiice!
-
Forged a guard similar to the original today. I’ll inlet the tab for pinning the front in place. There was no forward extension on the original. I’ll bend it to fit the stock profile in time.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZRVDqmhq/IMG-4373.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kVxCN1hN)
(https://i.ibb.co/KjyjXC45/IMG-4374.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fY0Y2m6X)
-
Well done, Rich. :o A NEW occupation for you? 8)
-
That's going to be one fine gun, I really like the simplicity, only what you need. First I've ever seen nails used like that. Necessity, the mother of invention.
Tim
-
That Fowling gun is by far one of my favorites. I made one many years ago for a friend of mine in California. Years later he wanted me to make him a copy of another fancier guns and I told him only if he would sell me back this Fowler. He agreed and I was able to get it back and still have it. Love the way that trigger guard works and have used that feature on many other copies. This original gun is available to inspect and measure at Colonial Williamsburg..
I was surprised they offered this service but you can make an appointment and go fondle it in person, great experience!
-
That Fowling gun is by far one of my favorites. I made one many years ago for a friend of mine in California. Years later he wanted me to make him a copy of another fancier guns and I told him only if he would sell me back this Fowler. He agreed and I was able to get it back and still have it. Love the way that trigger guard works and have used that feature on many other copies. This original gun is available to inspect and measure at Colonial Williamsburg..
I was surprised they offered this service but you can make an appointment and go fondle it in person, great experience!
That would be great , to handle the original. Did you include the barrel bands? Customer wants them. I’ve not decided whether to pin them or just fold them over. I’d like to include the reasons first the bands - a breakthrough behind the ramrod entry hole and split fore-end at the muzzle - but not sure the customer wants to go that far.
-
That turned out great Rich - Nice Job
-
Rich, I did include the bands, I even made it crooked like the original. They were on the orginal for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I carved in a faux cracck at the entry hole to look like the original and did remove some wood at the muzzle. I'll see if I can get some pictures together for you.
-
Rich here are so pictures of the one I made awhile back. I know I had some of the original as well and if I can find them I'll post them as well. One some detail I didn't pick up on till well into the build was the last ramrod pipe at the muzzle seemed to be made from some recycled brass object like a tobacco box or something it has a design on it. It's the only one like that.
-
Ken, I can post the pix if you PM me and I’ll give you my cell phone and email address
-
Trying to post pictures of this gun I did awhile back.
[url=https://ibb.co/d0fYHC3R](https://i.ibb.co/QFJwxSq4/DSC04060.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d0fYHC3R)
(https://i.ibb.co/kg3nHcDP/DSC04025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wNJH06Q2)
(https://i.ibb.co/dJr7LtYX/DSC04021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x8D3fYTw)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZzxtLrRn/DSC04018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s9qkm4p0)
(https://i.ibb.co/XfVTdtqW/DSC04027.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DPLn6QZ1)
(https://i.ibb.co/Ld4d4dH9/DSC04023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gZsZsZht)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y4LgNq8c/DSC04017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vCj9cKm3)
(https://i.ibb.co/1fhTRCYR/DSC04063.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jvBD3C93)
photo share web (https://nl.imgbb.com/)
-
Excellent! Same lock, I think, as I’m using. Thanks for the pictures!
-
Hi,
Ken that is a great gun!! I think Rich is on the same path. It ought to be really cool.
dave
-
That's a great gun Ken - you know I love it!
-
Rich - here is my version. I used a different but similarly large lock. I had some struggles because I used a barrel with a fairly small breech. This resulted in too little room for the giant mainspring. Even after reducing a bit of the mainspring I had to scrape the ramrod channel to move it away from the lock to make some room. Can't wait to see some progress on your version.
(https://i.ibb.co/wFpVH6zk/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pv1KpC6L)
-
Cool, Robert. My customer wants less drop - hard to keep the same feel but I’ll try.
-
That drop is pretty dramatic but it actually comes up to the shoulder very nicely. But, I understand the customer needs a say!
-
What a great looking lock ! Looking forward to the end product !
-
What a great looking lock ! Looking forward to the end product !
I agree it’s got style! Too bad I’ll have to grunge it up a bit.
-
I just love those deep rich colours in the butt stocks boys.
-
Ha! I just found this thread and was thinking to myself, “Gee I have to tell Rich that Ken Gahagan had his copy of this same gun at Fort Fred and they should compare notes…” and by page 2, voila!
Looking forward to seeing how this one develops, Rich-it’s a very cool gun…
Jay
-
Jay, it’s a fun build so far! I’m hoping to have it finished by Kempton but don’t tell the client! ;D
We’ve got a busy summer so there’s no telling. Barrel underlugs are on and pinned in the stock now and the underside profile has s rough sawn in. Lock inlet is next.
-
The gonne is donne.
I had to make some accommodations to suit the client. “No repairs or brass bands. No obvious aging. Make it like it’s 5 years since it came out of the shop. Correct the drop to fit.” So, less funky than I’d have done it.
This is my first build with a huge, somewhat primitive lock and it presented some challenges. I had to thin the bolster then trim the frizzen edge. The bolster was .450 thick!!!! The lock, as cast, is no Manton, shall we say. It was very well assembled but I had to add a shim to the tumbler at the full cock notch, because they notch was so deep that the trigger would have to move 3/8” to release the sear. The very long lock had a sear much further from the center of the pan than any I’ve seen before. This necessitates some architectural adjustments in the wrist and buttstock. My next big early gonne will be easier based on what I learned here. Critique is welcome.
(https://i.ibb.co/mrDXS50V/IMG-4901.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V0jQ3Yxc)
(https://i.ibb.co/WNYvmPvs/IMG-4902.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZRkzqYzN)
(https://i.ibb.co/zVxtbVrq/IMG-4903.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7tC0VtXs)
(https://i.ibb.co/mr0bG1Gp/IMG-4904.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q7kpfzf0)
(https://i.ibb.co/vvBykLyq/IMG-4905.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JFd6Hr6t)
(https://i.ibb.co/TMx6tw3z/IMG-4906.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9Hk6Wp5R)
(https://i.ibb.co/8kY7Drc/IMG-4907.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KnKrj2w)
(https://i.ibb.co/jYxFcg9/IMG-4908.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q84wtkL)
(https://i.ibb.co/HLjC15L3/IMG-4909.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PsdM3qs0)
young williams animal shelter (https://nonprofitlight.com/tn/knoxville/young-williams-animal-center-of-east-tennessee)
-
Very cool, Rich! If you could do it again, with more leeway to build it “your way,” would you use a different/smaller lock?
-
Very cool, Rich! If you could do it again, with more leeway to build it “your way,” would you use a different/smaller lock?
Tom, I think the lock adds a lot and says “composite gun” loudly, so I’d keep it or a similar sized very early lock. It makes the architecture pleasingly funky. I do wish I could have simulated damage and repairs and aged it, and added more drop at the heel. But I get it - a fella’s got to be able to shoot it.
-
Really cool, Rich.
Can you tell us about this screw and what we are seeing?
(https://i.ibb.co/393q5gJV/lock.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
-
For sure, Rich — you nailed it! Does anyone know where that original gun came from? I don’t recall it being mentioned in the book, but I don’t have it in front of me at the moment.
-
Really cool, Rich.
Can you tell us about this screw and what we are seeing?
(https://i.ibb.co/393q5gJV/lock.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
The castings as delivered were quite rough. The lock assembler used a machine screw there to stabilize the pan, as well as a rivet at the other end of the separate pan to affix it to the bolster.
-
For sure, Rich — you nailed it! Does anyone know where that original gun came from? I don’t recall it being mentioned in the book, but I don’t have it in front of me at the moment.
Tom, it has New England architecture but the original is in the Colonial Williamsburg collection. I don’t know where they acquired it or the provenance. The early Dutch trade lock suggests NY or nearby somewhere in the Northeast.
-
Right on. Thanks, Rich. Personally, I like the look without the brass band… there’s no shiny object to distract the eye.
-
Lovely Rich, just lovely. I agree with you that it would have been more interesting if you could have done it the way you wanted. That lock is great though it really wants a bigger barrel to avoid some of the issues. At least that was my take away!
-
Robert, the lock is huge. The bolster was super thick. If I could have added more drop to the stock, the tail of the lock which is curved could have been better placed on the wrist.
-
A couple more pix to better show the architecture.
(https://i.ibb.co/0VWb7nKV/IMG-4941.jpg) (https://ibb.co/prsF71Qr)
(https://i.ibb.co/TDDwR9yH/IMG-4943.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NggFpcRL)
(https://i.ibb.co/PZptC8Sn/IMG-4938.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z6sNTCZP)
-
Came out great-nice work Rich!
Jay
-
I like the color and finish of the stock. You made it to look like it's 5 years old.
-
Double slots on the tang screw are a good idea. Would they be HC?
-
Double slots on the tang screw are a good idea. Would they be HC?
I doubt they are HC but it makes it possible to get the barrel out without having a right angle screwdriver. A pocket knife will work. It was a spur of the moment idea. I wanted to make the gun more funky than my client wanted it to be, so I sneaked a couple things in.
-
A collector friend of mine has two original 18th C. muskets in his collection - an early English trade gun and a composite NE doglock musket - that each have what look to be an original period double slotted screw; one is a tang screw and one is a hammer screw. So I’d vote HC….
-
Rich
It's strange to see the Fowling with nothing on it
But upon closer inspection, it's a beautiful rifle with lovely lines.
It all takes some getting used to, good work.