AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: A Scanlan on June 15, 2025, 02:37:17 AM
-
Do I have your attention?
Here is the story. An individual arrived in Botetourt County in about 1800. Is 25 years old. Stays in the county for his entire life and dies in about 1852 or 1853. Has an inventory of gun making tools and is reported in the census of 1850 as a gun maker. A few signed examples exist and a few unsigned attributed rifles exist.
Why are there not more works to show for a 40 to 50 year "career" in one spot?
-
One thought/question: Was his fellow a full-time gunsmith or was he primarily farming and stocking rifles as his side gig? An inventory of tools doesn't tell how often they were used.
Kevin
-
I guess it's too easy! He purchased about 300 acres in 1816/1817 and IMO began farming but still he had 15 or so years in a small community of tradesmen making guns. That should have yielded more than a few. The collector world will be upset to learn one of "the best" county gun makers was only a part timer!
BTW, his inventory of property dated 1843 included 2 stills!
-
An additional consideration: Some of his output may have met their end in war effort scrap drives.
Kevin
-
Maybe he made contract rifles or parts for the Virginia Manufactory, and his work, as was pointed out, was used up in various wars.
Mike
-
One of the ranch hands from the 1920-1930s told me during slow time they repurposed the iron in old muzzleloading guns. Cowboy spurs out of gun barrels was popular he said.
-
HUMMM
All interesting (and unfortunate) possibilities!
-
If he was engaged in farming any decent-sized piece of ground, that of course cuts into time spent in stocking 'new' rifles. Also, let's consider that many individuals in the area by the first half of the 19th century may have already owned extant arms, therefore a fair portion of this individual's work may have been maintenance or repair work. Bob Lienemann's work concerning the Moravians in Northampton Co PA has been fairly eye-opening in that regard as somewhat of a parallel example.
-
Yes! And the same 1850 census that said he was a gun smith said he did "misc. repair services."
It strikes me that we so often think of these gunsmiths as dedicated exclusively to making guns similar to what we see in Williamsburg. I think the bigger and more accurate picture is that gun making was just another skill commonly practiced between other seasons or other enterprises. Several unsigned works have distinctive characteristics of the maker but do vary enough to wonder about the actual maker. Maybe products of his shop were actually made by others, not necessarily apprentices, but even accomplished makers using his facilities, resources and supervision. Sort of a gun smith school?
-
Are we talking about John Peterman?
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/65/1141/kentucky-flintlock-rifle-45
-
Yes, it is George not John.
And what is written is essentially all that is published about him but I have found out additional info and yes, I conclude he was trained by his father in York County.
Working on an article for the local Fincastle Herald to be published later this month. That rifle does have Peterman characteristics but two definitive features are ???
-
Are we talking about John Peterman?
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/65/1141/kentucky-flintlock-rifle-45
Typo George not John
-
There was a very good rifle maker in the town I live in whose career spans just about the same period. Welcome Mathewson started in business around 1804 and lived into his 90s...he was the oldest resident of Smithfield, RI when he died. His daybook is still extant in the hands of his descendents so we can pretty much see exactly what he was doing. He made excellent rifles and there are, perhaps 12 or 18 still extant (though I'm guessing at that..it may be less). From the daybook we see that the vast majority of his work was repairing guns with entries like "repairing one old soldier gun". I've had a musket attributed to him and I still have what is probably a dragoon musket by him (his brother was captain of the only militia dragood company in RI and the family still has his saber)...again, it's only an attribution but in that case I know it came out of the immediate neighborhood long before WWII. I'm only the 2nd owner in close to 100 years. His style was fairly distinctive and, to some extent archaic for the period he worked, so while I'm always skeptical of attributions there might be something in this one.
In any case, we also know, from the daybook that he probably ceased making complete guns by the 1820s. Thereafter, virtually all of the entries are for repairs both to guns and other farm-related tools.
-
the lack of found rifles made by him sounds like William Zollman, who also was a successful farmer in Botetourt County, who was a part-time gunsmith of nice long rifles. He moved to Zollmans Mill, Rockbridge County i 1808. Died on his farm August 9 1834. His son took over the gunsmithing after he died. I've only found 3-4 Zollman rifles (I have one).
My hypothesis is that a successful farmer (wealthy planter) didn't NEED to make a lot of rifles. Williams probate document shows pages of goods being inventoried for the estate, many acres of plantings, many buildings, etc. He was wealthy for the time. I bet he made only a handfull a year, in the winter when there was more time to take away from his many other activities.
-
Farmers aren't very busy in the wintertime.
-
Another aspect could be that the guns made in the region, may not have stayed in the region over so much time. They could be scattered out to the point that the connection from one to the other has been lost.
Cory Joe
-
All provocative thoughts. Keep them coming!
However George pledged all is personal assets and real estate for a debt he owed in 1843. The agreement gave the creditor everything unless George paid by a given date (cannot recall exactly at the moment). Court records show that creditor subsequently sold the property so George defaulted and lost it all. There was also another agreement where he pledged his "favorite black stallion named Raven with white hind feet and a star on its head" for a $90 debt. That was in about 1836...time line on this is the onset of the Panic of 1837. Actually, it's kind of sad.
-
So many guns got "used" up, destroyed or burnt up.
In 200 years, a LOT can happen.
-
Sure can! Maybe seeking an answer to that question is folly?
-
Perhaps, we can only enjoy and relish the ones which persevered.
-
There is another factor that nobody as yet has mentioned.
Some of these guys had and retained a big following and are highly prized and valued. Despite pickers and collectors rounding them up way back when, some families held onto them. Whether they descend from the maker or from the original owner they are coveted and not spoken of and therefore may never see the light of day again. Or until a generation with no appreciation gets it and suddenly it is on ebay.
I like to imagine, the despite the examples of some rifles we know are out there and documented, that there is the possibility many many more are yet to be discovered.
If there isn't that hope, then what's the point for some of us, like me who hack through jungle overgrowth and climb mountains to pursue tiny little rumors.
Because once in a while - we score big.
Let's say there ARE many more, you just haven't found them yet.
-
The collector world will be upset to learn one of "the best" county gun makers was only a part timer!
This is a very interesting comment, I think. I have encountered exactly this response when I have argued--shown, I think--that the Moravian gunmakers in Northampton County (especially Andreas Albrecht, also Valentine Beck) were "part-timers," largely because within the Moravian communities there was very little work for them to do (and that work was, for a long time, nearly all repair work). The community used their talents and skills, when necessary, but their primary responsibilities for these communities had nothing to do with gunmaking, which was secondary or even tertiary.
A single-minded focus on the gunmaking trade makes it hard to believe, often, that somebody such as Andreas Albrecht or his son Henry Albright were deployed in activities and trades that had nothing to do with gunmaking--the records must be hiding something! or we must be reading them wrong!--but that is a distortion produced by the focus. There were many, many things more important to these Moravian communities than gunmaking, even if a particular gunmaker was an unusually talented carver or whatnot.
-
I look at big picture questions, like:
- What is the gunsmith's purpose? - filling a high demand need for masses of frontiersmen heading out into indian country on the Wilderness Trail? Or building fancy rifles during a time of peace in a safe, coastal part of northern states?
- What was the era? 1776 and 1812 had wars and Indians. 1830 not so much.
- Was the region known widely for gun making, with lots of gunsmiths like the NC Jamestown School? They had dozens of prolific gunsmiths, all making rifles for the trade. You can find dozens of Lamb rifles from there, for example.
It's all about survival rate. If a SW Virginia gunsmith made 10 rifles each winter, and Lamb made 100 a year, you will find more of the latter. Not every gunsmith was making them fast to sell to everyone lined up at the door. Some made fewer, but higher quality. Some made mostly basic rifles, but once in a blue moon made one fancy one.
To SPgordon's point - I would say many, if not MOST frontier gunsmiths were part time makers. That is documented many places, even in Census records, where a known gunsmith often said "Farmer" when asked by the taker what was his occupation. Lancaster or Salem, NC were not the frontier. They were more "Guild societies" where one person did only one thing...all day every day. On the frontier the blacksmith might make guns some too...or fix plows.
-
The last two comments are on the money. This exercise (of researching Peterman) has taken me to a new place with understanding the trade and I think my perception of a gun maker in Botetourt County, 1800 to 1850 has changed substantially. I'm awaiting some microfilm from the Virginia Library in Richmond and after that I'll submit the material and photos to the local news paper AND circulate it among forum members who may be interested.
Appreciate the comments and welcome all!
ACS
-
This is spot on to my experience. I’ve run into this many times.
There is another factor that nobody as yet has mentioned.
Some of these guys had and retained a big following and are highly prized and valued. Despite pickers and collectors rounding them up way back when, some families held onto them. Whether they descend from the maker or from the original owner they are coveted and not spoken of and therefore may never see the light of day again. Or until a generation with no appreciation gets it and suddenly it is on ebay.
I like to imagine, the despite the examples of some rifles we know are out there and documented, that there is the possibility many many more are yet to be discovered.
If there isn't that hope, then what's the point for some of us, like me who hack through jungle overgrowth and climb mountains to pursue tiny little rumors.
Because once in a while - we score big.
Let's say there ARE many more, you just haven't found them yet.
-
Maybe I should think about this a little before posting...
Makes me wonder how accurate are our perceptions of life in about 1800 on the expanding frontier are. In most of the limited reading I have done I concluded a gunsmith actually had a shop and a place of business where he made, repaired and sold guns. I never concluded a gun maker would have a "side hustle". Yet I always thought that a gun maker would/could have a variety of related skills, i.e., blacksmith, wood worker, etc. And a "farmer" then as a farmer today "knows stuff and can fix things" (as stated on a t-shirt I recently saw). But would not some part of the equation involve evaluation of effort, reward and risk? Why would one make guns if it were not financially rewarding? Why labor in the hot sun behind a teem of mules when one could engage a helper or two and build guns? Seasonal factors aside our research on George Peterman gave me a peak at his life more so than his gun making.
George Peterman of Botetourt County, VA had a much different life that John Sites of Botetourt County and while the time frames were not exactly the same they lived two very different lives. Sites fits my perception of a gun maker of 1825. Peterman does not.
-
I'm not knowledgeable in the economics of the times, but note that there are some pretty substantial and impressive barns on eastern Pennsylvania farms from that period. This suggests that farming was able to provide a decent living. It's possible that gunsmithing was sometimes the side job for wintertime or rainy days for some who are listed as farmers in the census, but are known gunsmiths from our perspective.
Even now when I look at the large 10 room 2-story house and the barns and outbuildings of the farm where I grew up, on just 120 acres of mixed decent hilly fields, thin-soiled pasture, and rough woodlot, I have to conclude that farming in the later 1800s to 1920s provided a good income for those times.
-
Hi,
The idea of gunmaking as a wintertime occupation in the 18th and early 19th centuries always intrigued me. Short days, low levels of light, cold, heating requirements to apply and dry finishes all make me skeptical that gunmaking was a winter thing. I think in winter farmers and most people spent a lot of energy keeping warm, preserving food, perhaps hunting, sustaining livestock, splitting firewood, and digging out from snow much less working at gunsmithing. I don't think winter was a "down time" affording other activities like gunmaking.
dave
-
On the other other hand, if you were a farmer, and your boys were splitting the firewood, and your wife was preserving the food, you had time to sell Guns to provide some income during the winter. The air is dryer in the winter and with a decent heat source in your shop. I think they finishes Wood dry.
Hi,
The idea of gunmaking as a wintertime occupation in the 18th and early 19th centuries always intrigued me. Short days, low levels of light, cold, heating requirements to apply and dry finishes all make me skeptical that gunmaking was a winter thing. I think in winter farmers and most people spent a lot of energy keeping warm, preserving food, perhaps hunting, sustaining livestock, splitting firewood, and digging out from snow much less working at gunsmithing. I don't think winter was a "down time" affording other activities like gunmaking.
dave
-
This may seem like a shift in the topic but not so. Peterman signed rifles are few. I only know of 2 maybe a third, one of which is on a flash drive from the KRA on VA guns. The Peterman household had many people in the census of 1820 and 1830, maybe as many as 12 in 1830. He has a wife and 3 daughters and added a son in 1827. So that's 6 "Peterman's". Who are the other 6 or 7 and what did they do? Apprentices? Maybe but also maybe "production workers" making guns as products of the Peterman "shop" while George tended to his farm. Maybe George ran a gun makers business but did not actually make guns so much himself and maybe the products were more generic in character than those linked directly to George. So was the "shop" a place where a experienced gun maker could go to use the Peterman facilities (for a fee) making guns in their own style as opposed to the Peterman style?
No evidence exists that I know of to support this wild idea but still??
I have a Peterman "styled" rifle with the initials on the barrel of W E D OR W & D. Who actually made it and under what conditions?
BTW, the one on the KRA flash drive has a crude printed signature as I recall. George's signature on scores of documents in the clerks office was consistent in style over the years of 1803 to 1843, very artistic. Who scratched the name on the one in the KRA flash drive?
-
Also: it would be a mistake to assume that the riflemakers that we value today were valued in their own time.
In the early 1760s, Johann Valentine Beck, who had come to the communal settlement of Bethlehem in October 1761 but because there was so little work for a gunstocker was assigned to work with the children (as Andreas Albrecht was as well), wanted to move to Lititz and begin again his trade of gun stocker. Authorities advised that, because there would be so many gunmakers in nearby Lancaster, he had little chance of making a living. So he didn't move to Lititz.
When Albrecht did move to Lititz in 1771, there is good evidence that--despite what he had hoped--he was not able to earn much of a living as a riflemaker either.
So nobody thought: "boy, they make more impressive rifles than anybody else--they'll sell!"
-
You have to imagine that same issue continued for smaller scale gunmakers throughout the 19th century. A lot of the advertisements I've seen over the years seem to spend as much time talking about repair work, imported shotguns, and then briefly mention "made to order" rifles and pistols. American shotguns were pretty limited by the cheap imports from Birmingham and Belgium really into the early 20th century, and you start to get mass produced rifles from shops in Pennsylvania that the smaller scale "bespoke" rifle makers would have had to compete with. The economy of the early 19th century was heavily based on agriculture, and we were exporting a lot of agricultural products, including most of the world's cotton being grown using slave labor in the South.