AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on July 02, 2025, 08:21:16 PM
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So here's a fowling piece I made a while ago, when I was a custom gun builder. I'm not posting this to try to show off or anything like that. There's a story that goes with it that I think might be appropriate...
I worked on this gun for probably 6 months full time. I made the lock, all the mounts etc. etc. It was a huge project and I put my all into it. When It was done I of course showed it to people, but also showed it to those who I look up to and asked their thoughts.
I remember showing it to Wallace at WKU and having him give his assessment. He was complimentary about some things of course, but he didn't like the buttplate that I'd designed and spent loads of time making. His take was that it was too formal for the period and something with a looser feel would be much better.
I showed it to Frank House and asked him the same question. Again he was complimentary, but felt the wire work was lacking. That it was too heavy.
These opinions didn't feel good, but you know, they were right and I took it. Even If I disagreed, I would still take it. They are people I look up to. I'm more than willing to accept where I fit in.
There are people who have done amazing work and those who have amazing knowledge out there and I respect them. These aren't people who have self-appointed themselves as some expert, but have earned it. I'm talking about people like Mark Silver, Jud Brennan, Wallace Gusler, Jack Brooks, Brad Emig, Allen Martin, Mark Wheland, Mike Gahagan etc. etc. All of these guys and others have earned their reputation through their work.
This longrifle community is much bigger than those represented on ALR. I don't think many here really understand and appreciate this. Do you ever wonder why people of this caliber don't want to get involved here? I'm sure it's for lots of reasons, but I can assure you it's at least in part because they don't want to deal with opinions, comments and disrespect from those who haven't or can't do what they have. Everyone has a voice on forums like this. It's a good and bad thing.
(https://i.ibb.co/nN2mqmsh/5680160-orig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/39Xd5dyt)
(https://i.ibb.co/NnKCZQF0/431166-orig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4gptP9Fb)
(https://i.ibb.co/BHccJGP8/4942969-orig-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dsjjvtcn)
(https://i.ibb.co/BHccJGP8/4942969-orig-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dsjjvtcn)
(https://i.ibb.co/YT1y4F9Z/3588239-orig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HpbxLfvd)
(https://i.ibb.co/kvP4FpV/5173869-orig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z7bBC3R)
(https://i.ibb.co/JRkHbXyx/4560128-orig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ccTQpzCb)
(https://i.ibb.co/s90WrN5v/6164816-orig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4R61xXsZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/d4nVc7mD/p43-orig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JjXGdC3H)
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Sweet Mother. That is stunning. How do you find time to do that, run a business and expand said business all at the same time?
Im gonna have to re-examine my priorities.
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Awesome. I believe I seen this when you brought it down to 1 of Hershels seminars. I remember Frank being impressed.
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What? No lock engraving? ;) ;) ;)
Stunning is right.
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What? No lock engraving? ;) ;) ;)
Stunning is right.
And that's another story... It's engraved, but not as well as it should be. I'll try to find a close-up. I remember showing it to Mark Silver and he asked if I'd rubbed the engraving back. What he was getting at is that it was weak in strength. Again he was right. Did it feel good. No, not at all. All this work on a hand made lock and the engraving not quite right. Well, that's what it is.
There's levels that go way beyond this forum world. I guess people don't often realize what they don't know...
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Nice clean work no the less. The comments were made with eye for you to improve I am sure.
Mike
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Nice clean work no the less. The comments were made with eye for you to improve I am sure.
Mike
Yeah! I'm still proud of it, but at the same time I know it could be better!
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That is absolutely stunning work!!
Thank you for your contribution to this craft.
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There are many people in this hobby, and others, who simply appreciate craftsmanship and dedication. They are not attached to the “period correct.” Then there are others who eat, sleep, and breath, the pc hc stuff.
I look at what you built and see unbelievable skill, and vision. I view your abilities and opinion in probably in the same way you view Mr. House’s skills/opinion. While it’s great that you can take constructive criticism from people you respect, it does not detract from your accomplishments when you do it.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with it!!!
You became your own master!!
It is absolutely a great job well done and beyond!!! Beautiful Work!!!
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Jim,
I completely understand what you are saying in your post.
And, it’s not about the gun!
I follow 3 different forums, and see all the time, where folks comment when they really shouldn’t, sometimes commenting when they haven’t read thread or have obviuosly never done the thing they are commenting on.
And, then there are those you just know, they know what they are talking about.
I would guess if you weren’t running a very well respected business, and still doing custom work, you would not be posting here either.
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One's own talent and craftsmanship seeks its own level like water. You grow when you seek and look at work of the more talented folks. But you will not move ahead if you don't learn the skill to do so.
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Jim,
Correct me if I am wrong, but my read of your post indicates to me that the comments that were given to you were more about the style and not the execution. That is, Wallace thought that the buttplate engraving was not fitting for a 1770's style fowler, etc.
This seems to be a matter of taste vs craftsmanship, or perhaps a matter of opinion about historical accuracy doesn't it?
Based on the photos, I don't see how your execution can be faulted.
Mike
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I am in now way qualified, but I think this is absolutely beautiful.
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When I read about the rifles of the period, I often see references to different schools/styles of rifles. Now we have the Kibler style/school. Your work makes my only build look like I strapped a
piece of pipe to a 2x4. Absolutely beautiful.
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Jim, some makers take these comments and get angry, others take them and get better. Apparently you are the latter. Sometimes it takes guts just to ask one of those guys for judgements.
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Kibler, as a custom builder, was no doubt one of the best!
John
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Jim I've met most of the people that you reference. One thing that everyone one of them have told me. You ( meaning anyone ) can't get better unless your willing to except good criticism. Not negative insight but helpful advice and are willing to listen an learn. My take on why they don't join some forums is that to them. Time is money and they would rather apply it to there business time. JMPO
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Wisdom begins when you realize how much you don't know, and are willing to listen to those who do know.
Beautiful gun, far beyond my level of skill!
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I find that gun to be quite breathtakingly beautiful.
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I remember the first time I saw this gun maybe 10 years ago. I’ve often gone back just to admire it again. I’ve showed it to others as an example of the unbelievable craftsmanship that lives on today. Of course my assessment holds no weight compared to the likes of Gusler or House, however the work here and the detail is impeccable. I appreciate it and thank you for sharing it again.
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What? No lock engraving? ;) ;) ;)
Stunning is right.
And that's another story... It's engraved, but not as well as it should be. I'll try to find a close-up. I remember showing it to Mark Silver and he asked if I'd rubbed the engraving back. What he was getting at is that it was weak in strength. Again he was right. Did it feel good. No, not at all. All this work on a hand made lock and the engraving not quite right. Well, that's what it is.
There's levels that go way beyond this forum world. I guess people don't often realize what they don't know...
Good morning Jim,
Did you happen to find a close-up of the lock?
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Absolutely beautiful, amazing talent you have!
Tony
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Jim, I have been amazed at your quality of work ever since I first met you. Without a doubt you are one of the top builders today. You also have made a big impact on our community. You have added to the community and expanded the long rifle culture for many that may not have ever tried their hand at building. I applaud your efforts and dedication to quality and historical correctness in your products.
There are many on here that produce quality custom builds that will never have a huge impact on our community. Most are OK with that, they just want to build a long rifle that functions and works like it should. Some on here think they are experts, some are, some are not, but they are all entitled to their opinion. As you said, you have to take whatever their opinions are and continue on regardless of what you think.
I really enjoy and appreciate everyone's builds. If every build was just like everybody's else, we would get bored pretty quick. I like the differences that people come up with. Not all of the old master's quality were at the same level but we love all of them. Differences in schools, differences in hardware, carving, stock profiles, triggers, locks, barrel length, full stock, half stock, rifle, smooth rifle, fowler, hog rifles, southern rifles, PA rifles, mid west rifles. So many differences, I don't think I will ever get tired of looking at a new or old rifle, that's the fun of it. Enjoy the journey, it does not last forever. Take advantage of it as long as you can.
Keep up the good work
Jim
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Thanks to each of you for the kind words about the fowling piece. I really didn't post it to get praise, but thought it might help make a point. We're all at different levels, but it's good to be honest with ourselves and know where we stand. Online forums and the internet in general have created a platform for everyone who wants to contribute, for better or worse. This can be frustrating. I usually don't offer views unless I either have evidence to back up what I say or I've already done it. This often seems to be optional in today's world. I've taken part here because I've learned a tremendous amount over the years and like to share what I know, but I've come to the conclusion that I really don't fit in. So with this the case, I'll at least be taking a break from the online forum world and focus on my projects, which I have many! You never know, I might poke back in from time to time as well.
All the best,
Jim
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The internet and the proliferation of social media (digital mental institution) has changed the way neophytes approach learning new or newer skills. I’ll use fly tying for an example because as a kid growing up in the late 60’s and 70’s there was very little in the way of instructional media that could launch a kid into the craft, one had to be “brought into the fold and mentored” so to speak. This holds true for many hobbies and crafts. Fast forward to today and I could easily rattle off 3-4 YT channels to follow, a couple online suppliers and have a youngster cranking out some trout catching flies in a matter of days, not years. Building a muzzle loading rifle from a blank is another kettle of fish altogether, sure there’s online print and video resources, (this forum topping the list) but to Jim’s point there’s some richly talented contemporary artists out there who do not participate in forums such as this. The reluctance to accept criticism from some arm chair commenter is likely not one of the reasons they choose to be outside the realm of technology. I suspect that they covet the skills they’ve acquired over the years and understand quite clearly the level of determination and work ethic involved to gain those acquired skills. They’ll more than likely have (and do) often take a student or two under their wing but only if they see that spark that tells them this student might be able to carry on this craft/trade long after the master has departed the earth. Just my opinion, I don’t begrudge anyone for rejecting the allure of getting there creativity immortalized on the internet and at the same time give credit to those who do. Mr. Kibler has 100% changed the game when one thinks of allowing the budding longrifle builder an opportunity to assemble and possibly personalize a semi custom piece of extreme quality without a lifetime of trial and error.
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Jim,
You fit in.
There are those comments offering constructive criticism, and those that just criticize. Being told you did a lousy job without knowing or understanding what is at issue does not encourage improvement. It doesn't help when the criticism is terse or smarmy and comes from someone with years or even decades of knowledge and experience and doesn't want to offer advice (especially when they admit to finding it tiresome. To them I ask, then why are you here?)
Sometimes, too, even the best-intended critique can bruise our egos, especially when we or are unfamiliar with each other. In those moments, it can be tough to get past the emotional reaction and try to learn from it.
I have been on both sides of this, both on this forum and others. I'm more of a lurker here, because I don't feel my skills or knowledge run deep enough to contribute much. So I read, and learn. And share what I can.
But I'm always trying to elevate the hobby. Isn't that ultimately why we're here?