AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: HighUintas on July 17, 2025, 04:51:33 AM
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I am curious about a few different aspects of contemporary builds that are heavily aged to either be a bench copy of a particular rifle or just be representative of a real original.
The two topics I am thinking about, which are only a couple of items in the forefront of my mind but not the whole story in ageing a new gun, are wood aging and metal to wood and metal to metal fit.
On many originals there appears to be a terrible metal to metal or metal to wood fit, and the wood is often very.... Shrunk? The wood grain seems very open and not smooth anymore as if parts of the wood shrunk more than others.
So I'm wondering, is there an artificial aging process that accomplishes both at the same time, or do certain things like metal to wood/metal fit have to be done when inletting the parts?
The only great contemporary builder examples I know of are that of Mr Kettenburg. I understand that some of these may be trade secrets that various people may not want to share, but I'm hoping some general information or guidelines might be given.
In a brief Internet search, I see that wood can be aged through kilning or heat treatment. But I don't know if that would produce desired results.
It has me thinking I kind of want to inlet a couple pieces of mild steel into some maple scrap, bury it in the dirt and expose it to heat and water etc to see what happens
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I seldom see contemporary guns aged to this degree. Wood shrinkage is simulated by finishing the wood below the surface of the buttplate.
Look at this 1700s original club butt fowler. Notice how the buttplate overhangs the toe. And the buttplate return is raised above the level of the comb. This can be simulated when building and aging a new gun. Shrinkage is a percent of a dimension. That’s why the toe overhang is greater than the edges of the buttplate. A buttstock is taller than wide. Most folks won’t notice your efforts at simulating shrinkage of the wood. They will see color, gunk, distressing, and pitting and patination of iron and brass, primarily.
(https://i.ibb.co/99SdnnQz/IMG-2620.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bgDG11cq)
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The late Tom Dawson made Hawken copies that looked like originals and he built in the mistakes and breaks seen in old ones.
His Hoffman&Campbell copy had a "repaired"break thru the grip and altered the lock to a "full cock only".I made it and it had a 2 position tumbler when new.Triggers were made on the long bar common to these guns but with "Kentucky Rifle"two way triggers and springs.
This rifle was a J&S in all respects but had Hoffman&Campbell on the top of the barrel.He had me mak what I called a "low end"lock for it and I still have that plate pattern
Bob Roller
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Here's one I did recently that will be at the CLA show.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=84781.0
(https://i.ibb.co/RGF69Qqw/image.png) (https://ibb.co/mrjyGh3W)
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I have done aged finishing at times too, but I do it only when it was specifically requested.
Here are a few I did years ago;
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4302/35758957682_910830cd65_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WtU1i9)Antiqued Hawken (https://flic.kr/p/WtU1i9) by Steve Zihn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156296479@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4278/35758957722_8b99ee9bb3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WtU1iQ)Antiqued Hawken 2 (https://flic.kr/p/WtU1iQ) by Steve Zihn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156296479@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4256/35528873321_0c83239268_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/W8yLep)Set, left sides (https://flic.kr/p/W8yLep) by Steve Zihn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156296479@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4006/35528873451_1a8e4e7706_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/W8yLgD)Matched set forends (https://flic.kr/p/W8yLgD) by Steve Zihn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156296479@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4148/35528874241_3f35fd4890_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/W8yLvg)Antiques set (https://flic.kr/p/W8yLvg) by Steve Zihn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156296479@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4240/34817252734_31d9067b7b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V3FwdW)Becker 9 (https://flic.kr/p/V3FwdW) by Steve Zihn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156296479@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4006/34817253394_29e3fd143f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V3Fwqj)Becker 7 (https://flic.kr/p/V3Fwqj) by Steve Zihn (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156296479@N08/), on Flickr
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Don Bruton is the master of ageing rifles. it is how I like them made and he has made several for me. They come to me with dents, dings faux repairs, metal pitting and rough spots (outside of bore only).
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Mike Brooks has a pretty good touch at aging, he posted a lot of info on how he did it also.
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Kettenburg is the King of aging contemporary arms.
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Another builder that likes to build in aging and hard use is Brent Gurtek.
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Ive considered removing wood and charing or something forward of the pan...seems like a lot of well used originals are ate out there from use and I assume black powder residue.
Leaving no crisp edges anywhere is a common trait too.
Barrel flat to barrel flat is rounded from wear, finish is usually shiny from wear not from the sheen of the finish used...
I wish I new how to create the gaps without looking like I created the gaps.
I don't have any methods worth sharing but I'm always thinking how to make my guns look old as heck. That's how I like em. Shiny brass and a dent free stock is for the birds. I kill stuff with my guns and I want them to look like a work horse.
-Brian
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Thanks for all the thoughts and builders suggestions.
Rich, you bring up a really good point on the dimensional shrinkage of wood and how that impacts where the gaps form. That makes it seem to me like it would take a real master builder to create a convincing forgery of an original
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I have always figured that Mother Nature and Father Time are the true Masters of REAL aging!! Can't quite wrap my mind around the FAKE stuff!! H.T.
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I have always figured that Mother Nature and Father Time are the true Masters of REAL aging!! Can't quite wrap my mind around the FAKE stuff!! H.T.
Agreed. That's why I'm amazed with the work of guys who can fool a trained eye.
I don't know if heavily aging a gun that is for my personal use is something I'd want to do or not, but the process is interesting to me.
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Gimme one of them fake guns made by Hershel House or Allen Martin or Steve Zihn or Don Bruton or that fella up in Alaska please!
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Gimme one of them fake guns made by Hershel House or Allen Martin or Steve Zihn or Don Bruton or that fella up in Alaska please!
Yep.
Doing it well is a skill.
If a gun is supposed to look like an 18th c. piece, the skill also includes understanding the techniques and philosophy of 18th c. builders. You cannot take a "perfect" (in quotation marks) rifle as many builders on here try to build (every surface polished, every screw perfectly centered, screw slots perfectly centered and all perfectly timed, etc.) and then convincingly make it look old. In that regard, I can't help but to agree with Hugh T.
On the other hand, there are several craftsmen who truly understand the 18th c. rifle, and they can build one that looks like it was just recently found and cleaned up a little, including having all the 18th c. marks of a hand-built piece. That, in my opinion, is a big step above building a "perfect" gun. I'm not talking about hiding poor craftsmanship. I guess some guys try to do that as well. But there are fine craftsmen (including Jud Brennan in Alaska) who aren't slouches trying to hide poor craftsmanship.
A friend of mine calls guns like I am describing "forgeries". I find that disappointing. If the builder signs his name to the rifle and dates it somewhere (whether on the barrel or inside the box) and, moreover, stands behind it at the table as his potential customers look at his/her work and make their orders, then it's not forgery. It's art.
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Jack DuPrey of Michigan.
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I use the term forgery in the literal sense.... Thinking of some of the guns at auction that are supposedly originals.
I would not call a contemporary build made to look old a forgery unless the builder intended it
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Jack DuPrey of Michigan.
Jack is a friend of mine and I have one of his guns on my bench at all times. I often look at his rifles in the evening when the wife has control of the TV remote too! ;D
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If you take the time to learn what you're looking at, there's no way any modern aged gun is going to fool you.
There's just too many tell-tale give aways.
John
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If you take the time to learn what you're looking at, there's no way any modern aged gun is going to fool you.
There's just too many tell-tale give aways.
John
I agree 100%. I can’t understand the hubbub about aged guns being “forgeries.” Now, I can be fooled by powder horns. Probably because many originals have been cleaned up.
But I hope folks here will share some techniques they use. I’ve got a personal gun I’ve aged, brought back to new, and aged again. Just for the heck of it. Most of that was gunk in the crevices that n the wood finish and varying the rusty patina on the steel bits. It was already distressed, mostly by being owned by me.
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If you take the time to learn what you're looking at, there's no way any modern aged gun is going to fool you.
There's just too many tell-tale give aways.
John
Thanks for adding that comment, John.
Regarding techniques, for those who don't mind ordering a book, you might want to check out "Gunsmith Tips & Projects, 2nd ed." (Wolfe Publishing Company). John Bivins (deceased) has several articles in there, including three on restoration (last three chapters in the volume). His detailed explanations about how he did restoration on a particular rifle are excellent food for thought for any of us interested in making new stuff look old.
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If you take the time to learn what you're looking at, there's no way any modern aged gun is going to fool you.
There's just too many tell-tale give aways.
John
Thanks for adding that comment, John.
Regarding techniques, for those who don't mind ordering a book, you might want to check out "Gunsmith Tips & Projects, 2nd ed." (Wolfe Publishing Company). John Bivins (deceased) has several articles in there, including three on restoration (last three chapters in the volume). His detailed explanations about how he did restoration on a particular rifle are excellent food for thought for any of us interested in making new stuff look old.
Great suggestion. Thank you! I'll be sure to pick that up.
I'm working on aging my flintlock just through natural use, but it's a pretty dang slow process without hard abusive use
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If you want that shrunken wood look around the butt plate and all hang a rifle over or near a hard working woodstove for the winter, you'll get it. Don't ask me how I learned that one... :o
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I agree with Osprey! I recently purchased a rifle made in the early 70s and it has obviously been owned by who knows how many people and used, but not abused. The rifle was well taken care of but smelled of a wonderful hardwood smoke suggesting it might have spent some years over a fireplace. That wonderful smell let one’s mind wonder of the history that rifle had seen over the past 50 or so years! How many deer or elk had it taken or how many rendezvous has it seen. Just as Osprey said, the wood around the steel buttplate has slightly shrunk. The barrel shows its age, other hardware as well. All of this “aging” appears very natural like Blacksmoke suggested but the bore remains shiny and bright. A well used rifle but well taken care of! Just my two bits! Interesting discussion.
elkhorne
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Yes. Don Bruton and Jack Duprey are masters of crafting guns that appear to be well worn and well loved. Much talent in both fine men.
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I guess there are two degrees of aging a gun. One is to make a new gun look like it's actually 200 years old and the other is to make a gun look like it was built 200 years ago but only used for 20 years or so. I find the attempts by amateurs I see on the internet to age a gun artificially not so pleasing. A lot of Kibler builders attempts.
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Personally, I delight in old guns with character.
In my eyes new can be perfect but still have no character.
For this reason I only made guns with what to me felt like 'Character".
There is an air of mystery to me, in half worn carving or engraving, like looking into the past somehow. It shouldn't be too clear, like looking through the mists of time maybe! This is what lights my lamp.
Brutishly bashed about does nothing for me, BTW!...or false repairs.
Best,
Rich.
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I think I need to build one for myself and heavily age it. I don't know what it feels like to hunt with an "old" one. Different I'm sure, but I know it would not be the same as hunting with my other "as new" gun where I do actually remember what caused nearly every mark. I like the idea of it ageing just through my own use, but won't live to see the day it actually does look 150 years old.
I would just hate to age one and have it look terrible. Maybe that's why most less experienced builders stop at the slightly pitted point of browning or rust blueing.
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It strikes as odd that some renactors fake age their guns. It if the costume is the be correct the gun would new recently made and in good condition.
I do not get it. For me, since it will never look 100% real I do not see the point. I'd be happier with a genuine old gun. I think, and could be wrong, but to make it look plausible, you need to start with a well made and well finished gun, then mess it up. That seems wrong. It is also more work than a well finished gun because it is additional steps.
However, It is not for me but I will not tell someone they are having fun wrong.
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I think, and could be wrong, but to make it look plausible, you need to start with a well made and well finished gun, then mess it up.
You are not wrong at all.
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I think I've seen statements about Mike Brooks (or maybe someone else?) dragging a finished rifle behind a car in a gravel driveway. I don't know if that's true .... But maybe.
My thoughts had always been that the rifle is well finished, as new, then had various scary treatments applied. Dragging through gravel, buried in the dirt in summer and watered for weeks, hung over a wood stove or put in a kiln, repeat all that multiple times, take a high RPM buffing wheel to various spots. Refinished, etc.
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I think I've seen statements about Mike Brooks (or maybe someone else?) dragging a finished rifle behind a car in a gravel driveway. I don't know if that's true .... But maybe.
My thoughts had always been that the rifle is well finished, as new, then had various scary treatments applied. Dragging through gravel, buried in the dirt in summer and watered for weeks, hung over a wood stove or put in a kiln, repeat all that multiple times, take a high RPM buffing wheel to various spots. Refinished, etc.
Did you want the "well used for 50 years by my great, great grandpa" look, or the "Rip Van Winkle let his gun rot and rust on the forest floor for 20 years while he slept off a night of drinking with Dutch ghosts" look?
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It used to pop up now and then that someone would advise aging steel by sticking it in a wet pile of cow manure for awhile. The goal was to get someone to do it do they could laugh at the joke they played on someone. Beware advice that sounds like someone could be playing a joke on you.
Most contemporary aging falls into 2 categories. One is a gun well used and cared for over the span of 20-50 years. The far end is hard use for 80 years then left in a damp spot for another hundred. I prefer the well used and cared for look. A dried out stock does nothing for me.
I don’t want derail but here’s an original close to the far end. I like it as an original but would never want a contemporary gun made like this - even if still in flint.
(https://i.ibb.co/rKrRp8J7/IMG-3641.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8nZLxvVK)
(https://i.ibb.co/4nHbGzX0/IMG-3642.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9k7xL61d)
(https://i.ibb.co/QWYz3Kt/IMG-3643.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TQPpxgd)
(https://i.ibb.co/tpxQhJF0/IMG-3650.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9HVcvrSx)
(https://i.ibb.co/qLrrGzn0/IMG-3655.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ds559Scb)
(https://i.ibb.co/JFv5gmtx/IMG-3657.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qFNkV7j0)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yx79pjf/IMG-3660.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zzhcGfP)
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I carve working decoys but don't age them. They are painted in oil paints and two or three seasons of banging around in a boat and floating in salt water ages them enough. And when my impetuous young friends shoot them they really get aged fast.
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It used to pop up now and then that someone would advise aging steel by sticking it in a wet pile of cow manure for awhile. The goal was to get someone to do it do they could laugh at the joke they played on someone. Beware advice that sounds like someone could be playing a joke on you.
Most contemporary aging falls into 2 categories. One is a gun well used and cared for over the span of 20-50 years. The far end is hard use for 80 years then left in a damp spot for another hundred. I prefer the well used and cared for look. A dried out stock does nothing for me.
I don’t want derail but here’s an original close to the far end. I like it as an original but would never want a contemporary gun made like this - even if still in flint.
(https://i.ibb.co/rKrRp8J7/IMG-3641.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8nZLxvVK)
(https://i.ibb.co/4nHbGzX0/IMG-3642.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9k7xL61d)
(https://i.ibb.co/QWYz3Kt/IMG-3643.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TQPpxgd)
(https://i.ibb.co/tpxQhJF0/IMG-3650.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9HVcvrSx)
(https://i.ibb.co/qLrrGzn0/IMG-3655.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ds559Scb)
(https://i.ibb.co/JFv5gmtx/IMG-3657.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qFNkV7j0)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yx79pjf/IMG-3660.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zzhcGfP)
See, that would be right up my alley. I see it as a challenge and it keeps me excited and interested.
One thing for certain, to pull off a really convincing 'fake' requires more time and work than actually building the piece 'as new.' No doubt about it.
Of course the dead giveaway right off the bat is simply looking down the bore because we still want to shoot them... right?
I guess there is an aspect of "art" to doing it but I've never been comfortable with that term just relative to my own work because I can't shake the feeling that I would then need to extend my pinky while carrying around a glass of whine wine and end every sentence with a question mark.
:P :P
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It used to pop up now and then that someone would advise aging steel by sticking it in a wet pile of cow manure for awhile. The goal was to get someone to do it do they could laugh at the joke they played on someone. Beware advice that sounds like someone could be playing a joke on you.
Actually, that's not a joke. I had a friend who restored antique clocks and he routinely used to bury pieces of wood and a bit of dog-doo in his garden. He said it's very acidic and had the desired effect he sought on the wood.
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It used to pop up now and then that someone would advise aging steel by sticking it in a wet pile of cow manure for awhile. The goal was to get someone to do it do they could laugh at the joke they played on someone. Beware advice that sounds like someone could be playing a joke on you.
Most contemporary aging falls into 2 categories. One is a gun well used and cared for over the span of 20-50 years. The far end is hard use for 80 years then left in a damp spot for another hundred. I prefer the well used and cared for look. A dried out stock does nothing for me.
I don’t want derail but here’s an original close to the far end. I like it as an original but would never want a contemporary gun made like this - even if still in flint.
(https://i.ibb.co/rKrRp8J7/IMG-3641.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8nZLxvVK)
(https://i.ibb.co/4nHbGzX0/IMG-3642.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9k7xL61d)
(https://i.ibb.co/QWYz3Kt/IMG-3643.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TQPpxgd)
(https://i.ibb.co/tpxQhJF0/IMG-3650.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9HVcvrSx)
(https://i.ibb.co/qLrrGzn0/IMG-3655.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ds559Scb)
(https://i.ibb.co/JFv5gmtx/IMG-3657.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qFNkV7j0)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yx79pjf/IMG-3660.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zzhcGfP)
That's not a derail at all. That's the type of heavily aged that I'm talked about... Not the used for 50 years and well cared for type.
Making a believable copy of this would be impressive.
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Not my cup of tea. I'm with Hugh on this topic.
Each to their own.
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I think achieving a look like the original I own, on a new build, is something only a few can accomplish. A friend owns a gun that was beautifully built but the barrel is deeply and uniformly pitted end to end. That’s a look I don’t find authentic or attractive.
I’d sure like to see some of my favorite originals in the condition they were when “found” or say as they looked in 1920. When I first started going to antique gun shows in Pennsylvania in the late 1970s, all the flintlock guns were shining like they’d come off the bench a few years ago and were thoroughly cleaned and waxed that week.
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Rich, here is one that I'm familiar with, an original Appalachian rifle.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54667403523_9fa3a31f61_b.jpg)
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One I aged several years ago. Al
(https://i.ibb.co/5hQCxkMp/Screenshot-20250311-014438.png) (https://ibb.co/N20fnrVD)
(https://i.ibb.co/HD0hZ3sg/20200929-020308.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vxbX9RGz)
(https://i.ibb.co/Gf7F5h8k/20200928-180205.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cKJxrmZt)
(https://i.ibb.co/cKyDtFyk/20200928-175702.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Psrw4hrF)
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One quick give away would be how the barrel was rifled. 7-grooves that are very narrow normally indicated hand rifled with old tech. Modern machine rifled barrels normally have 8-wide grooves. Also, the few original barrels I have handles were iron, heavier than modern. The iron was soft and attracted dents more than modern steel. If I had the time and inclination to truly knock off an original I would not beat it up.