AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Avlrc on August 16, 2025, 02:44:15 PM
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Thought you, Tennessee folks, might like to see this.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/213362080_baxter-bean-presentation-flintlock-rifle-willoughby-oh/?from=alert&utm_source=LA_SavedAlert&utm_campaign=SearchAlert_20250702_A&utm_medium=email&utm_content=item
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First Tennessee rifle I've seen with barrel keys. Very nice!
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Estimate seems low.
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They usually are. Will be interesting to see what it goes for.
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Too bad about the total refinish. Looks like a brand new Kibler kit.....
John
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Too bad about the total refinish. Looks like a brand new Kibler kit.....
John
I agree, I looked it over before I posted. At first glance, I thought it was a contemporary. If I owned it, I would have to work on that some.
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Bore condition is too good. Baxter's guns are the ones to fake IF it is one. I would be cautious and would want to see this gun in person.
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Bore condition is too good. Baxter's guns are the ones to fake IF it is one. I would be cautious and would want to see this gun in person.
other than the description where do you see the bore? or have you see the rifle? bores can be refreshed
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My initial thought is that this is a restock. I did some looking and found an entry in Jerry Noble's book, Notes on Southern Long Rifles, Volume 1, where he mentions a B. Bean for E Walling, probably Elisha Walling. He said the rifle has been restocked in the last 40 years but doesn't mention who restocked it. He also mentions that the account book of Thomas Amis of Big Creek, Hawkins County Tennessee mentions Elisha Walling in 1786. This is on page 19, Volume 1. Is it the same rifle? Probably.
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My initial thought is that this is a restock. I did some looking and found an entry in Jerry Noble's book, Notes on Southern Long Rifles, Volume 1, where he mentions a B. Bean for E Walling, probably Elisha Walling. He said the rifle has been restocked in the last 40 years but doesn't mention who restocked it. He also mentions that the account book of Thomas Amis of Big Creek, Hawkins County Tennessee mentions Elisha Walling in 1786. This is on page 19, Volume 1. Is it the same rifle? Probably.
That is good info. The value of a good library.
If it is the same rifle, IMO, the architecture looks right & great that it was preserved.
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Doesn't the engraving look funky with mixed block and script characters. Two different engravers?
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EVERYTHING about this rifle looks right! Keys are not unheard of. Saying the bore is "good" is wide open to interpretations and a long way from bright and shinny and ready to shoot. Finish? They say it has been refinished so no problem there. SO, you all just keep thinking its's a fake and dismiss ANY thoughts of buying it. Personally, I would LOVE to own it but I expect it will top the estimates many times and beyond my means!
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Doesn't the engraving look funky with mixed block and script characters. Two different engravers?
That is how he did them. Probably more examples, but here is one.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69709.0
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If Jerry said it was a restock, if it is the same rifle, then it was a restock. Jerry probably knew who the stocker was. It's a nice looking rifle and if it is a restock it is well done.
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They sure do a good job of keeping the fees for a purchase buried in fine print SOMEWHERE!
Also I note when you navigate to the auction using the above link it reflects a current high bid of one figure but when you go via the auctions website it shows no bids.
And now I see there is the "Hi Bid" site and then there is a "Live Auctions" site.
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I love this part in the description; "The rifle has been reconverted to flintlock, and the lock works with the set trigger. Stock has been replaced and stained at some point."
So, you're basically bidding on an original Baxter Bean barrel!
Scratching head, John
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Refreshed Baxter Bean marked barrel ;)
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Refreshed Baxter Bean marked barrel ;)
Ahhhh, got it!
Thanks. ;D
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Well, looks like that description is accurate. I say hats off to their honesty.
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Also I note when you navigate to the auction using the above link it reflects a current high bid of one figure but when you go via the auctions website it shows no bids.
And now I see there is the "Hi Bid" site and then there is a "Live Auctions" site.
To my understanding, the different bidding platforms/websites do not communicate with one another and just reflect the current high bid through that particular site. Some companies post their auctions to Invaluable, LiveAuctioneers, HiBid, iCollector, and others all at once which can be rather confusing. When I've bought stuff through online auctions, I try to go back and bid through their own website if possible. Some of the smaller auctions only post through third parties though.
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Seth: Yes, that does seem to be the case per Milestone. Apparently on the day of the sale closing they consolidate the bids, which is not too difficult and it closes on their platform so I suppose a buyer can watch the others but do their final bidding on Milestone. They also have the lowest buyers premium.
I think I have seen this rifle "in person" many years ago. It was newly owned and the owner was crazy about it. Other "experts" at that show where whispering about it being a restock thus they seemed amused at the owners enthusiasm (and price paid) for it. "Would not part with it for any price"....or so it was said. Now, it MAY not be the same rifle but it sure all comes together in my old memory that way. I still like it!
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I definitely like the looks of it. I had also saved it to a wishlist to check back to see the results.
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The auction description says that the stock has been "replaced" and stained. So it is a restock.
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Yes. This is a restock of some original parts, not especially well done. Note the swale in the topline of the buttstock. You are buying some very nice and valuable parts and nothing more. Sucker bait. If it goes cheap, imagine what Ian Pratt could do with the original stuff. There's the money.
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Sure nuff! A really bad rifle. Must have been taken by a fit of stupidity when I said I would like to have it. Restock...kiss of death! I tried helping a friend sell a rifle with a signed barrel and a very desirable maker at that. Priced at $3,500 and had a lot of people interested at the CLA show years ago...then some guy pipes up that it was a restock. Immediately everyone lost interest even at $500. Funny thing was that it may not have been a restock. So we sure don't want to get stuck with a restock! And restock or not it was a very attractive rifle, unlike this dog.
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It's a good looking gun, and says it has good rifling, so could be a fine shooter for not much money! Bragging rights for a very cool barrel signature!
Try to find a modern made shooter for those bucks!
John
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Seems to me just maybe the auction company knows a little more about this that they have posted....just saying!
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If I was still shooting these things, I'd pay around 1500/2000 for this one. It's good looking, especially with that barrel, and way more special than a kibler CNC kit gun. And less than a new custom built one.
John
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But the question is, "Can one shoot it"? Once again, a statement that the bore is "good" does not make it shootable. Additionally the question of how the lock and triggers function is ??
They call it a "presentation rifle". What does that mean? If they know that it was "presented" to someone maybe they also know who made it. But maybe if these bits of info were known it would detract form the appeal.
An original Baxter Bean rifle is the open market would be a real prize and would command some serious money. I'll stop short of calling is a fake but a reconstructed one, shooting or not, is not all that attractive.
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$2700 plus 20% plus taxes plus shipping. A bargain for an original Baxter Bean BUT not so sure about being a bargain for a repo with an original B Bean barrel. And no so sure it was in condition to shoot. Someone got a novel item none the less.
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Dueling check books! And yes, with auctions 20%, tax, shipping, that's a lot of money for a barrel! Cool barrel, but not that cool!
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Boys, like it or not who ever got it, even if it is not all original or even shootable in my opinion got a deal for an original B. Bean barrel. If it is a restock and the rest of the parts are original, he got a steal.
I located a C. Bean rifle one time that was busted up and crudely put back together, mostly new wood, a few new parts but a nicely signed barrel and mostly original parts. It did not look nowhere near as good as this rifle, the price tag was several thousand more than what this rifle went for. I did not buy the rifle and I don't know if it ever sold but I can tell you this for sure, a good contemporary B. Bean rifle with a "new" barrel will cost you what this rifle went for and probably a tad more.
We all wish we had a good Bean rifle but the reality is they are few and far between. Sometimes, you just got to take what's there and be happy.
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Hey, Jim. I know where one nice C. BEAN rifle resides.
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I wonder where that might be? 8)
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I find the appeal in the character that made it not so much as the rifle itself. It's just another SMR.
Maybe that is the case in many things collectible.
Baxter was quite a character.
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And the Mona Lisa is just another painting.
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JTR; This gun kinda reminds me of an original tomahawk I saw for sale that only had the handle replace three times, and the head twice.
Hungry Horse
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I read the Mona Lisa was valued in 2023 at $700 or $770 million. There is solid historical records which link it to ole Leo throughout history. (FYI, it is not "signed") Not unlike our hobby there are "unknown" makers, attributed makers and then signed works which firmly establish the maker. So the point being as I see it, there are at least two elements to "value". One is what I'll call intrinsic value. The market will assign an intrinsic value to everything. Once that same object achieves an attribution, the value will likely increase. And once that object is proven to have been created by a specific "artist", the value will further likely increase. So the value is the greatest when the artist is solidly established and SO, yes, who made it is a very large part of the "value".
The Mona Lisa is not worth $770 million because of solely what it is but a significant part of that is linked to the "WHO" that painted it.
Just like our hobby the art world is constantly studying and finding new information on things. Should it ever be verified that Leo did not paint it wonder what would happen to the value?
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Seems like everyone is beating this dog to death with their personal opinions. When the pics are enlarged, the hardware looks good to me, so I think the buyer got a lot more than just a signed barrel for his money. Whether the stock is a perfect copy or a ballpark copy probably isn't a big issue to the buyer. I'm guessing he really wanted a Bean rifle, couldn't find or afford a better one, and if the stock wasn't perfect on this one, it was good enough and not a big deal to him. He's probably sitting at home admiring the rifle, tickled he got it at that price, and more than satisfied with his purchase. To him, it's his Mona Lisa, and it probably gives him that same little smirk.
Shelby Gallien
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Seems like everyone is beating this dog to death with their personal opinions. When the pics are enlarged, the hardware looks good to me, so I think the buyer got a lot more than just a signed barrel for his money. Whether the stock is a perfect copy or a ballpark copy probably isn't a big issue to the buyer. I'm guessing he really wanted a Bean rifle, couldn't find or afford a better one, and if the stock wasn't perfect on this one, it was good enough and not a big deal to him. He's probably sitting at home admiring the rifle, tickled he got it at that price, and more than satisfied with his purchase. To him, it's his Mona Lisa and it probably gives him that same little smirk.
Shelby Gallien
Exactly
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Yeah, I beat it up as much as I could making a poor attempt to discourage potential buyers from bidding. If only the buyer would have read my posts they may have passed and I would have won! Crazy, I know. ::)
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Sure nuff! A really bad rifle. Must have been taken by a fit of stupidity when I said I would like to have it. Restock...kiss of death! I tried helping a friend sell a rifle with a signed barrel and a very desirable maker at that. Priced at $3,500 and had a lot of people interested at the CLA show years ago...then some guy pipes up that it was a restock. Immediately everyone lost interest even at $500. Funny thing was that it may not have been a restock. So we sure don't want to get stuck with a restock! And restock or not it was a very attractive rifle, unlike this dog.
Yeah, I beat it up as much as I could making a poor attempt to discourage potential buyers from bidding. If only the buyer would have read my posts they may have passed and I would have won! Crazy, I know. ::)
??? ?