AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: WKevinD on August 16, 2025, 07:10:15 PM
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Just picked this up yesterday. The patch box and carving are a familiar style but other than that I have nothing. Any thoughts?
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/F4HG30kq/NewTG.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tpLyKxwP)
(https://i.ibb.co/Fq0YnkN8/Newbutt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NnmN7gQW)
(https://i.ibb.co/Kj0wD8tQ/Newbox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7JY4Q03T)
(https://i.ibb.co/5hsf2GXw/Newfull.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ld92vYDH)
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Looks like it could be Bucks County.
Al
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That is different than any whale tail finial I've ever seen.
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Can we see a picture of the inside of the patchbox cavity and underside of lid? The box surface looks so absolutely perfect with no surface scratches, dings, dents, marks, almost no wear on ends of hinge, and very little oxidation on its surface, that I'd like to see if the inside shows more appropriate age. I see no traces of darker oxides in the wood immediately around the box edges, which usually occurs from oxides being rubbed off into the wood from handling over many years. That whole area, the patchbox and its incised border, look almost too clean, too untouched, for a rifle of that vintage.
Shelby Gallien
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Contemporary or antique rifle?
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Contemporary or antique rifle?
I'll get some pictures of the PB interior box/ and latch today.
This came out of a display collection of antiques, so I have assumed it was cleaned / restored.
I have assumed 1820s as the vintage
Kevin
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Can we see a picture of the inside of the patchbox cavity and underside of lid? The box surface looks so absolutely perfect with no surface scratches, dings, dents, marks, almost no wear on ends of hinge, and very little oxidation on its surface, that I'd like to see if the inside shows more appropriate age. I see no traces of darker oxides in the wood immediately around the box edges, which usually occurs from oxides being rubbed off into the wood from handling over many years. That whole area, the patchbox and its incised border, look almost too clean, too untouched, for a rifle of that vintage.
Shelby Gallien
Shelby,
Agreed, the surface of the patch box and stock looks too clean, the whole rifle looks to have been cleaned and worked on.
The release for the patch box is under the toeplate finial the screw looks to have been replaced as well.
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/RTg2LhFx/Whalebox1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hFgspX6P)
(https://i.ibb.co/0RNm1vSk/Whalebox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q3G7hVfz)
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That is different than any whale tail finial I've ever seen.
Me as well but how else to describe it?
Kevin
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This one looks more like a whale tail than the whale tail ones do. Different. Nice find.
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Well it looks like it is/was a Bucks County rifle, and originally a pretty nice one. I don't know what to say about the patchbox. In the pics, the cavity looks old, but the whaletail ?!?!? To me, the carving looks to have been enhanced and/or added too, but that might just be the pictures.
I assume you looked for a name on the barrel? Is it a smooth bore? Any carving around the barrel tang? Is the nose cap open ended? Any engraving anyplace? You can sometimes tell the maker by the engraving style.
An interesting rifle, but lot's of questions.
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John, (JTR)
I find no engraving but incised carving, I have taken more pictures of the carving. The barrel appears to be about 45 caliber smooth.
(https://i.ibb.co/SXtHSk7t/Bucksentry.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7JnBh3Nn)
(https://i.ibb.co/HfT2snh4/Bucksbutt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v64BGZXq)
(https://i.ibb.co/bMFrm9md/Buckscomb.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RkNCbwbH)
(https://i.ibb.co/jPRdQc6Q/Buckstang.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mx6btY2t)
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With these new pictures, I don't see why it couldn't be an original Bucks County gun. It has the right style, carving, etc. But the big issue is the patchbox. I've never seen one similar to that on another bucks gun. I would think this one originally did have a PB, because the shape of the wood next to the butt plate, with the spring and opening rod, is the same or similar to others I've seen and as the one I own. That, and the cavity just looks old. The carving certainly has a Bucks look to it, though obviously some of it has been recut, I guess to have it show more prominently. Original Bucks, at least the ones I've seen have pretty shallow and narrow incised lines. Some of the carving looks untouched, with the gunky reticulated look in the lines, like up on the forearm.
A few things on Bucks rifles that aren't obvious or visible on this one, is that the wrist is somewhat egg shaped, wider than high, the forearm sides are pretty flat sided V shape, the muzzle cap is open ended, and the RR entry pipe has a long wide finale.
The rear sight is the right type
As for the patchbox, most have one, but some don't. Those that do are mostly side opening boxes, and that's where the makers name would be as well. I've never seen one with this sort of box, and that carving around it all looks new in the pictures, so I'm going to guess it's not original. The two new screws don't matter much, as there's a new screw in the barrel tang as well. If you could get the PB off of there, there might be a shadow of an original one under it. But I think you're going to have to live with what you have, in that respect.
I think it is an original, but if you take the lock out, and/or remove the barrel, the wood will tell the tale there.
John
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I've never seen one with this sort of box, and that carving around it all looks new in the pictures, so I'm going to guess it's not original.
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John
I'm not an expert on much of anything, so my opinion isn't really valuable here. But under magnification, the carving looks old to me. The metal of the box is new--that is clear. They guy doing the restoration perhaps left it that way on purpose, so that it could be recognized as restoration work. But it looks to me like new metal fit to an old mortise (old hole and shape). Have a look at these photos under magnification and see what you think. I think they will enlarge if you click on them. Note the wear around the edge of the box inlet on the lower side panel. It looks like this rifle went without that lower side panel for a while.
(https://i.ibb.co/S7GCMWbc/Bucks-box-1.png) (https://ibb.co/G3NS8By9)
(https://i.ibb.co/gbp2fRF2/Bucks-box.png) (https://ibb.co/0pS76GV7)
Anyway, Kevin, I think it's a really cool piece. I think you did really well in bringing it home with you!
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Thanks, great information and questions to delve into deeper. This is exactly why I like these guns the questions, the story, the whys and how's.
Kevin
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Clearly Bucks Co. I think the box is an old add on. It seems at odds with the fine architecture of the rifle.