AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Kurt on August 22, 2025, 05:52:40 AM
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I'm working with a rifle that, after a couple shots, even when wiping the bore between shots, begins to throw the patched ball up 4 inches, then up 4 inches again. Could this be related to chamber fowling, or might it be ball deformation from ramming the ball down as a result of chamber fowling? Windage is great. Thanks.
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What was the weather like when you were shooting?
Have you tried shooting it on an overcast day, or from under the roof of a range shelter?
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I have one rifle with a brass barlycorn front sight that will cast them high on bright sunny days.
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I am shooting from under a roof, and the sunlight varies from overcast to bright. My front sight is a black vertical post. Range is 50 yards. Could muzzle jump be an issue, or is the ball gone by then?
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I'm guessing that the problem is not mechanical, but is instead a matter of how the light is playing with your sights.
I hunt in forests and I like low, traditional, bright sights. Hunting here is usually early morning or evening, and seeing a dark sight in a shaded forest is very difficult for me. So, for me, for that purpose, the brighter the front sight, the better. But as others have mentioned in recent threads, bright sights don't work well in bright sun. You might want to try using a dry erase pen on your front sight (as has been mentioned recently in that same thread) and see if that helps. That ink will wipe off easily. You might try blacking the whole front sight and also the back and top edge and notch of the rear sight.
PS: If you need to do this in an historically correct way, for some sort of event, you can do it with a candle. Just trim the wax back a little with a knife, so as to make the wick longer than it needs to be, and then the candle will produce a lot of soot. You can hold your rifle sights over the candle to black the sights. Just be careful, lest you scorch the wood!
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In addition to differing light on the front sight, how are you resting the barrel? Make sure it's the same every time, experiment with holding it in your hand resting on the rest, and experiment with different rest points if you can't find another solution to your problem.
I haven't seen it with my muzzleloaders, but I shoot BPCR rifles, with the front rest on the bare barrel (these are typically ~1" across the octagon flats). The position of the rest makes a difference, both in point of impact and accuracy. Even in those barrels, barrel harmonics make a big difference. If I watch the recoil of the rifle, it's easy to see if the rest is on a null point; the barrel doesn't jump off the rest. If not on a null point, vertical jump is apparent. Most shooters find a null point ~6" behind the muzzle, or immediately in front of the forearm. I'm not sure whether this would be significant for round ball rifles, or even where to start with rest position.
Clarence
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Kurt, how heavy, or light is your barrel, and is it straight or swamped? A light barrel, or a heavily swamped barrel, can react to barrel heat and move enough to affect your point of aim. I had a swamped barrel that after just three shots in a relatively short time, would start throwing shots high and to the right. I cured it by opening up the stock at the swamped area and glass bedding it.
Hungry Horse
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I'm working with a rifle that, after a couple shots, even when wiping the bore between shots, begins to throw the patched ball up 4 inches, then up 4 inches again. Could this be related to chamber fowling, or might it be ball deformation from ramming the ball down as a result of chamber fowling? Windage is great. Thanks.
So, 50 yards and shooting from a rest.
Does this mean a total of 8" high then for the second rise?
I've not witnessed the 4" poi, let alone 8" from my guns.
Are you using the rifle's rod, or a separate rod for loading?
If rifle's rod, are you replacing it before every shot?
Is the barrel tight in the forend and tight to the breech, ie: no movement?
Consistency as in everything identical shot to shot is necessary for shooting good groups, from the loading to the seating position, everything must be identical or as close as is possible.
Good bench technique is as important as good positioning and holding in standing shooting.
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(https://i.ibb.co/tT7XW7nv/DSC03775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4n6d56CX)
(https://i.ibb.co/0p4BPzCv/DSC03779.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8nvzFQrt)
same rifle and load 50 (sunny)and 100yrds more shaded near sunset
(https://i.ibb.co/cSRW2t79/DSC03411.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZpvQcKkr) my clean barrel shot is always higher
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The rifle is a percussion 50 caliber, with a 28-inch 15/16 barrel. I did tighten the barrel into the half stock. I am resting the rifle on the forearm, probably midway on the barrel, on sandbags, and using a range rod while keeping the wood rod in the gun. I'm trying to shoot a 5-shot tight group, but after two shots, it goes wild on me, even swabbing between shots.
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In addition to differing light on the front sight, how are you resting the barrel? Make sure it's the same every time, experiment with holding it in your hand resting on the rest, and experiment with different rest points if you can't find another solution to your problem.
I haven't seen it with my muzzleloaders, but I shoot BPCR rifles, with the front rest on the bare barrel (these are typically ~1" across the octagon flats). The position of the rest makes a difference, both in point of impact and accuracy. Even in those barrels, barrel harmonics make a big difference. If I watch the recoil of the rifle, it's easy to see if the rest is on a null point; the barrel doesn't jump off the rest. If not on a null point, vertical jump is apparent. Most shooters find a null point ~6" behind the muzzle, or immediately in front of the forearm. I'm not sure whether this would be significant for round ball rifles, or even where to start with rest position.
Clarence
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Kurt
Is the rifle new to you?
Or a rifle you had a while and just started to do this?
Any nicks or dings in the crown?
Have someone else shoot the rifle and see what happens.
I know it can be frustrating.
Fleener
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Yes, the rifle is new to me. The crown looks fine, and it will put the first couple of shots touching, but subsequent shots, even swabbing the bore, go high. I have become frustrated with it because I want to shoot a 5-shot cluster and can't get near it. I have tried increasing patch thickness, but it's too hard to load. I even tried ruffing the balls, thinking they may not be rotating with the patch. I am stumped by the fact that it puts the first balls where I want them, but not the following ones. I end up leaving the range very frustrated. I think I'm going to give up on it till next year, as I have many other rifles to get shot and many other things I need to do. You know how that is.
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Heat? Barrel is warming up? Perhaps try a full-length bedding.
My double rifle sighting in has been giving me fits as well.
Good luck.
Fleener
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I really appreciate all of the advice offered. Thanks greatly!
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Heat? Barrel is warming up? Perhaps try a full-length bedding.
My double rifle sighting in has been giving me fits as well.
Good luck.
Fleener
Excellent point! I had just this occur on a recent build. The stock\barrel fit at the wedge key was just a tad loose as I could squeeze it and determine a tiny bit of movement. A wedge key bend solved the issue.
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So if your gun shoot two shots close to each other then t rest are off, maybe its just not grouping well with that load???? If you think your barrel wedge is suspect it would be so for the first two shots as well.
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I don't think a loose wedge key would allow for any kind of consistent shot to shot group. So, maybe 3 shots would all tough and the next two would be high and left and the sixth shot would be low and right.
If your wedge key is loose.....tighten it up and remove that from the equation.
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A few more questions.
Why do you feel the need to swab the barrel?
Does it start to load tight after the first couple shots, or stay relatively loose and easy without swabbing? Does the patched ball start easy at the muzzle? how do the patches look after firing? Are they burning through, or have tears in them? I know on some ranges it can be difficult to get or find the patches.
A few different possible reasons for the patches not being intact after firing, and the condition of the patches can help find the cause.
last, is this a TC New Englander with the .50 round barrel?
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I have been shooting this rifle almost exclusively most of the summer. From the start, it would put the first ball in the bull, which is about 1.5 inches square (blue masking tape). Clean bore. Accuracy degrades as the bore fouls, and I have experienced difficulty seating the load at about the third loading. I think I'll try letting the barrel cool. I have tightened the wedge pin previously. As noted, it is difficult to find the patches as I have been shooting from the same bench and there are alot of them lying around. I know at some point the patches looked really good, but on another occasion, some looked burned through. I had been using dish soap and water, then tried bore butter, then went back to the dish soap as the bore butter seemed not to take the heat. I remember thinking, "Is this why some on the forum don't like bore butter?" Heat is the only thing, at this point that I can think might be the cause. I'll have to be more payient and give it time to cool. I do the swabbing with windshield washer fluid and dry it before loading again. This was my dad's TC Hawken. A very lightly used gun.
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When workign with a new rifle I start with a low charge. The group normally strings vertical. I attribute that to low pressure not encouraging a consistent burn and consistent pressure. As I increase the charge the group gets tighter, until it doesn't. At some point the group opens up, but in rounder pattern. ...........most of the time. : )
5 grain incriminates are enough to observe trends. When it is as small as it gets I pay with patch thickness and micromanaging the optimum charge . I do not use combinations that require pounding the ball down with a steel rod. I use moose milk a the range. I do swab between shots with damp patch for load testing .
The charge could be a bit low?
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I will increase the charge and see what happens. Thanks.
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Kurt
I use a fairly damp patch for the RB. It cleans the bore as it loads. I never have to clean the bore to shoot or have loading issues. Perhaps you give this a try. You stated that at the 3rd round loading gets harder. I think the dirty bore is your issue now.
Or try cleaning between shots. I would not try to work up a load without having a consistent bore condition between shots.
Fleener
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If your combination is not cleaning the bore as you load, the fouling will build shot after shot.
This shows your combination is weak and not sealing.
With this scenario, you'd get better accuracy with cleaning/swabbing/wiping(whatever you want to call it) between shots.
Expecting to shoot a good group with some rounds shot dirty, then some after a fresh lean, likely won't work.
The bore needs to be in the same condition every shot.
For such a " weak" combination, wiping every shot is your only way of achieving this consistency.IMHO
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I built a rifle some time back with that problem. The barrel was 15/16 42 in. 40 caliber it had a bad bend which I straitened. Slow fire OK faster shooting heating up it would walk.
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I just came back from the range, and I believe my patch material is the issue. I marked my patch with a Sharpie and fired the first round, which hit immediately above the bull. I recovered the patch, and it was good. The second shot went 3 inches higher. I recovered that patch, and the outer portion was burned, shredded away. The third shot went off the target. I could not find that patch. I've used this material in my 40 caliber, and it works well, but this gun doesn't seem to like it. I lubed them well, so it must be the material. (?) I marked the first patch I found with a 1 on each corner and in the middle. Second patch with 2s, third 3s. I couldn't see the marking on the second patch so there is some doubt, and the third I couldn't find but based on it missing the target completly, I think the patch was the issue.
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Did you change what you do for cleaning the bore? If you are still getting hard loading by the 3rd shot, I would say that a dirty bore is causing your patches to fail.
If it was your patches, the first one would be bad as well.
Fleener
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Seating the ball on the powder gets difficult, but pushing it down the bore is easy.
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Sounds like a thicker patch may help. Like mentioned above, with a tight combination and a patch thats thick enough for the task, loading each shot will clean the barrel from the previous shot. And the patches should almost look like they could be re-used.
I know I've used 'bore butter' in the past, but don't remember if it affected loading, or if it caused a ring of fouling just in front of the ball when loaded. Maybe someone else can add to that. I think I stopped using it because it was so messy.
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At times, to prove a point I have used the same patch for all 5 shots in a group, with my .69
shooting 85gr. 2F with .030" denim match (12 ounce). On my mic, turned to the ratchet and
clicked 5 times, they measure .025". The groups are as good as when a new patch is used each
time. Water based lube.
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When I shoot at our public range, I get funny looks from range officers during the cease fires. Reason being I always look for my patching.
I once had one of them ask me if I was looking for quarters. I tried explaining to him the importance of the patch and ball combination, and the fact that you need to look at a muzzleloading rifle as if it was a cartridge. I'm not sure any of my explanation made any sense to him.
But you always need to look for your patches. Even though you may have established what works best for your rifle. The reason being, if you pre-lube your patch material the lube can break down the material over time. If you are lubing your patches for every shot, it confirms that the patching is performing as expected.
So, if you're having issues with your shooting and the patches look like they should, you can look elsewhere to solve your problem.
The only time I swab the bore when shooting is if we have a long cease fire when folks are retrieving targets from the 100- yard line.
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If you have any mineral oil, try it. It may surprise you. It did surprise me.
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I thought perhaps my patch material was not all cotton as I supposed, so I burned some, and I believe it to be 100% cotton. It must be too soft a weave. I measured it and found an old shirt with the same thickness, and cut it up.
As to mineral oil, when I discovered Ballistol was something like 95% mineral I went and bought a bottle of baby oil, which is 100% and have used it to protect the outside of my guns. I've decided to use non-petroleum oils in the barrels as I read petroleum products tar up the fouling.
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" I measured it and found an old shirt with the same thickness, and cut it up. " This is probably a problem, to thin and to weak.
The petroleum oil - tar issue is bunk. There is no reason to avoid normal oil. Just do not shoot the gun without cleaning the preservative out of the barrrel first.
Ballisotol is a stand-by for muzzle loaders. Yes it is mostly mineral oil. You can mix Ballistol with water, as I do, and use it for wet patches at the range. Ballistol is good to lube and preserve your gun. My only objection is the pungent wet dog smell.
I never got fine accuracy with oiled or greased patches.
You can mix Ballistol and water, about 6:1, saturate your patches, then let them dry. You my get better accuracy with the "dry" patch. You will need to swab between shots. Do not get the bore sloppy wet.
It is a very good idea to use a petrolium grease in the bore for long term storage. RIG for instance.
For storage you can use lanolin mixed with dry isopropyl alcohol. I have it for resizing lube and it is on the bench already. Fluid film is lanolin based and smells good. Lanolin is not petrolium.
Do not use grocery store animal fats or veg oil as a bore preservative unless you like rust. Whale oil and refined bear fat are fine.
Use strong cotton cloth with a tight weave for patching. Measure it for thickness with a caliper IF I were to get less than about 0.015" with a thumb pressure squeeze of the jaws I'd get something thicker.
I'd suggest buying some known good dry patches from a known vendor. Get a couple of thicknesses. Use the moose milk ballistol wet lube. There is no sense fighting unknown patching materials.
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Good advice from scota4570! :)
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I went to Michaels and bought new patch material, lubed it with 50/50 water dish soap very well, and the patches burned up. I am using 60 Pyro RS, and it is not supposed to burn as hot as black P. Next, I twice folded some cloth and put it on top of the powder charge, then loaded the wet patched ball. Believe it or not, I found the intact folded patch attached to a destroyed ball patch! The material I bought is 100% cotton, .013 cloth. I continued to try loads with a folded patch on top of the powder and shot the group shown below. This is not acceptable, but I think I'm on the right track. Any advice on how to keep the patches from burning up is welcome. Saturating them with 50/50 water and soap isn't working in this gun. It does in my others. I ordered patches from Kibler today.
(https://i.ibb.co/xKfhL7JP/IMG-20250901-135543.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cKCJ3rDM)
(https://i.ibb.co/5H2GvWk/IMG-20250901-154109.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CGWmv56)
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It is my experience that .013 patching is too thin. I'm also thinking that since this is an older TC , it was more than likely used with Pyrodex, and I'm suspecting that the barrel is pitted . That stuff demands rigorous cleaning or it will unleash metal eating minions. Either way, try thicker patch material. The thinnest stuff I use is .018 and that is in only one rifle. The others get .020 to .022, and they shoot clean without burning
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also, look for some of the topics here about 'coning' or 'polishing' the muzzle. You may be damaging the patches during loading. Thicker patches will help a bit, but you need to get rid of sharp edges at the muzzle if you have them.
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All logical thoughts and advice, but Pyrodex was not used in it previously, as BP was available and economical, and the bore is bright and shiny. I selected .013 because the patch I was using that shot well was .012, and I wanted to go a little tighter, but more importantly, get a denser woven cloth. When cleaning the rifle yesterday, I purposely put very tight patches on the jag, even using a paper towel to increase the possibility of tearing. The only slight cutting occurred when I would push the patch into the chamber area, but at that point, I believe I had it in the space that would be filled with the powder charge, so the patched ball would not be affected. Thanks for the interest and sage advice.
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Kurt you are doing your rifle no favours by using that fake power.
My T.C. .50, with smoothed crown (thumb + 320grit Emery) shot best with a .495" cast ball and .022" denim and 85gr. 2F GOEX.
A fellow at Thompson Mtn. range walked up to me and said he couldn't load that combo in his (T.C) rifle. I took his .495" ball and .022 denim patch and loaded it into my .45 Bauska (.028" deep rifling) barrel then fired it into the 9 ring on my 50yd. target. I then again gave him instruction on smoothing the factory machine cut crown. That barrel had a .504" groove dia.
Kurt, your patches are too thin. To load a good combo, you need a smoothed crown. Then and only then does the ball and patch form itself into the bore without damage.
I thought we'd gone all over this, some time ago.
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I worked on smoothing the crown today, and as posted, ordered some .015 patches from Kibler. When they arrive, I'll be back at the range. I'm using the Pyrodex because this is a percussion rifle. I bought three pounds when I couldn't get black, it shoots well in my other two perc guns, and taking Pyrodex out of the market will only push the price of Black Powder higher. I clean my guns as well as it can possibly be done.
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Vertical stringing is typically a result of inconsistent velocity. Your burned-out patches attest to that.
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Vertical stringing is typically a result of inconsistent velocity. Your burned-out patches attest to that.
Please read that again, Kurt. .015" is STILL too thin. If you insist on using loose combinations, at least put a barrier patch or wad of something between
the powder and the patched ball. That is worth a try.
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OP, you can get real BP. Mail order it or do a club group buy. That is how we all do it.
Pyrodex is inferior to real BP in every important way.