AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Chocktaw Brave on October 21, 2025, 12:18:50 AM
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I finally got to shoot my recently completed flintlock hawken.
The flash hole position looked good during the build, but when I tore it all down, finished everything and put it back together moved
(https://i.ibb.co/gZKCLWdk/IMG-7579.png) (https://ibb.co/SwCp4mcF)
So the results of my first shots was;
Number one very good ignition
Number two flash in the pan
Number three flash in the pan
After cleaning the hole and adding powder, I had a delayed ignition.
Cleaned it really good and third shot with a delayed ignition as well.
So I’m thinking I can use an endmill and open up the hole, slightly rearward and higher than it is and then insert a white lightning liner. this should not only reposition it, but also make for a quicker ignition.
(https://i.ibb.co/DHXD3hs2/IMG-7623.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v65x2pgn)
Forgot to add a picture of the rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/Qj9cvxyF/IMG-7116.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sJjP9X8v)
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Something like this.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZzFm1n60/IMG-7633.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SwMr7hXz)
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Do you currently have a liner in there or is it just a drilled vent hole?
If there is currently a white lightning liner, I probably wouldn't monkey with it because I think the position looks ok and wouldn't think that would cause ignition issues based on Larry pletchers tests. But I don't have an end mill so it would be harder for me to fix.
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The current hole is just a drilled 1/16 inch hole. I was worried about putting a liner in to begin with because it was so close to the parting line between the breach plug and the barrel.
But now it seems like I have plenty of room.
I forgot to mention it’s 50 caliber, I was shooting .490 round balls with a .010 patch and using 60 grains of 3F powder for the charge. 4F powder in the pan.
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In my experience that ball of fire in the pan didn’t care about a 1/16” or even 1/8” difference in position. It’s a ball of fire.
If not using a liner I would open the hole to 0.070”. If I can’t see or feel the powder with a pick- feeling a crunch- I know the powder is not compressed against the touchhole.
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I don't think the location of the vent is the reason for the unreliable ignition. I believe it is likely the length of the straight-walled flash channel. I had a similar problem with a flint Hawken I built way back in the 1980s. Ignition was reliable after I internally coned the flash channel using the nifty little tool one of our members makes/made.
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I’ve seen those inside coning tools. It looks like it would work, but I would have to take the breech plug out which would open up an entire entirely new can of worms.
I’m thinking installing a liner would do the same thing and be a lot easier for me. Especially if it’s a quality liner like the internally coned white lightning.
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You could mark exactly where you want the touch hole liner and plunge cut the hole in a mill. Then tap and install
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Did you have much fouling with those first shots? Your ball patch combo sounds a little lose to me :-\
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Well, I swabbed the barrel after each shot, dirty, but not excessive. I did not clean the flash hole after 1st shot.
Yes my plan is use a center cutting end mill to make the initial hole(.197/5mm) then open up to a #7 drill. My liner is 1/4 x 32
The barrel is 1 inch across the flats, I’m thinking you’re correct and it being a really long, narrow flash channel, causing the problem
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Changing to a different touch hole arrangement might improve things, but I don't think that's your main problem, or at least it isn't the only problem. In your earlier post, you wrote:
So the results of my first shots was;
Number one very good ignition
Number two flash in the pan
Number three flash in the pan
After cleaning the hole and adding powder, I had a delayed ignition.
Cleaned it really good and third shot with a delayed ignition as well.
Maybe I misunderstood something, but the fact that you had very good ignition when the rifle had not previously been fired makes me think that the main problem is with fouling and swabbing habits. That first shot in a new rifle was with everything perfectly clean. It was downhill from there.
I haven't had a rifle with that sort of breech plug in many, many years. But I recall also having problems. With that sort of breech plug, there is a powder chamber inside the breach plug. So, there is basically a right-angle connection between the chamber in the breech plug and the drilled touch hole. Am I right? You mentioned swabbing after each shot. Did you also swab that breech plug chamber as well? Swabbing that chamber sometimes takes a special jag, as the jag used for the bore is often too large and will not enter it. If you only swabbed the bore, were you accidentally pushing fowling down into that chamber, thus causing trouble for your ignition? Was the patch you used for swabbing damp, and how damp? Did it leave moisture in the breech plug chamber? You mentioned cleaning the hole and said you "cleaned it really good". Did you use a pick to clean the touch hole after swabbing, so as to clean out any debris that might have gotten pushed into the hole?
I use a pick after any swabbing. I also use a pick after loading, before priming. The pick clears the hole itself and should also touch and crunch powder. As Rich said
If I can’t see or feel the powder with a pick- feeling a crunch- I know the powder is not compressed against the touchhole.
(The pick should be made in such a way that it can fully pass through the hole into the bore without binding, so that it touches powder. I also push it into the powder and feel a crunch. A simple round wire is best, as you don't want to use anything that will bind in the hole. I realize that many people do not use picks. The topic was discussed on here a few months ago.)
PS: Very nice looking rifle.
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The height is just fine and so is the position. Like Rich said, with merely a hole in the barrel, it needs to be larger.
As wetrock indicated, swabbing or wiping the bore between shots, will plug or partially plug a vent, let alone a straight sided hole.
A 1" bl. and .50 cal. has quite a wall of steel for the flash to go through. If staying with a drilled hole, it must be larger.
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Dany Caywood cones his barrels from the outside. Don't bother to go to his website for a photo of this because there isn't one. A lot of guys used to use a set screw a touch hole liner. That accomplishes the same thing. Tom Snyders inside coning tool is easy peasy and inexpensive.
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You know, I was thinking about that smaller chamber at the bottom of the barrel. I do not believe the Jag I use allow the patch to go into that chamber. I will try and find pistol swab to see see if I can get down in there.
Or order a smaller caliber jag for my ramrod. But I’ll have to tie the patch on, so I don’t lose it.
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There are a couple of ways to make these jags. See this thread:
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=84523.0
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=84523.0)
Note that if a patch is wrapped around the larger diameter portion, then it won't (or shouldn't) come off.
If simply cleaning with a smaller jag, you may want to add centering collar (basically, a brass washer) that will help it align with the smaller hole. If the patch can wrap around the collar, then you may not have trouble with it coming off.
I keep a small patch puller worm (patch grabber) in my bag for the rare occasion when I need to retrieve a patch that came off a jag. Here's a photo of one from eBay.
(https://i.ibb.co/35Ch6f9M/patch-puller.png) (https://ibb.co/9mrYKwkV)
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....... but I would have to take the breech plug out which would open up an entire entirely new can of worms.
CB,
If you install a touch-hole liner, be careful that it doesn't extend into the smaller chamber. I like to install the liner with the breech plug out, so the liner can be trimmed as needed so it doesn't extend into the bore (or chamber, in this case.). Or measure carefully and trim it before installation.
Ron
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....... but I would have to take the breech plug out which would open up an entire entirely new can of worms.
CB,
If you install a touch-hole liner, be careful that it doesn't extend into the smaller chamber. I like to install the liner with the breech plug out, so the liner can be trimmed as needed so it doesn't extend into the bore (or chamber, in this case.). Or measure carefully and trim it before installation.
Ron
If you do it with the plug out, then it's easy to see and deal with any burrs that would grab a patch. It's also helpful to use a round "burr" type cutter (sometimes called a "cherry") and smooth up the edge just a bit, where the touch hole connects to the chamber, as that helps keep that edge from grabbing a patch.
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Got it!
Thank you, I ordered some smaller jags to be able to get into the smaller hole. I’m gonna do some experiments with cleaning and see how much that actually helps.
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I think a fouling scraper/breech plug scraper would likely be the best tool for cleaning the powder chamber. Check them out on Track or Kibler's website.
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Index the plug\barrel on the bottom flat, de breech and open up the anti chamber to a max but safe dia then instal liner before re breeding to the index mark.
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A barrel with a patent breech can have a very large effective wall thickness for the flash to transit. Some have been made to circumvent this possible issue. Some have not.
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Oh,, BTW, use a slotted tip jag with a flannel cleaning patch to clear that anti chamber
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I configured a cleaning rod to get a brush and a swab into the powder chamber. I verified it by putting a wire through the flash hole. Surprisingly I did not get that much fouling out of it. I did order a few smaller jags and a worm from TOTW to make it easier.
I was going to add in some flints, but it appears EVERYONE is out of stock.
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Here's a pic of my post install GM barrel T\C "drop in". The ignition is just as reliable as any of the other 4 flintlocks I have with better locks. The "timing" is just a fraction of a second slower with this original T\C lock....but it's not enough to warrant a replacement lock.
BTW, don't "fill up" the pan where the pan powder covers the flash hole. Up to the bottom will work just fine.
(https://i.imgur.com/LlwwaUCl.jpg)
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Steeltrap, did you see the videos on vent location and vent covered in powder firing times in Muzzles Blasts magazine?
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I would like to see those videos. How does one find them?
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Can't help with that but what was found was that a vent at the bottom of the pan, completely covered with powder, produced the fastest ignition. These tests were done with white lightning liners.
Sam's "banking the powder away" from the vent, produced the slowest ignition.
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Steeltrap, did you see the videos on vent location and vent covered in powder firing times in Muzzles Blasts magazine?
No, I did not. What did I miss?
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I think there may be a slight misunderstanding of Pletch's results as based on the video. In a written summary posted on the other forum (see link below), he gives the following numbers, which (if I understand him correctly) seems to imply that level is slightly faster than covering the vent. You guys have a look for yourself.
QUOTED
The averages for the 10 trials are:
level prime ----------- .036
covering the vent--------.040
banked away from vent -- .044
As a comparison in the earlier test with normal vent placement the times were:
banked away ------------.043
close to vent ----------.036
Here's the link:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/timing-low-vent-position.37709/
(https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/timing-low-vent-position.37709/)
If I've misunderstood something, let me know. I'm not an expert on this stuff.
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I have always read, been told that the flash hole should be at the sunrise position across the flats of the pan.
I’m sure other positions can and will work, but isn’t this supposed to be the optimum position?
My frizzen has the raised portion that goes down into the pan and seals it better. So for me, putting too much powder in the pan would defeat the purpose of this seal correct?
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Thata how I interput it as well Whetrock. So I like to see the vent hole ABOVE the bottom of the pan if possible
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I have always read, been told that the flash hole should be at the sunrise position across the flats of the pan.
I’m sure other positions can and will work, but isn’t this supposed to be the optimum position?
My frizzen has the raised portion that goes down into the pan and seals it better. So for me, putting too much powder in the pan would defeat the purpose of this seal correct?
It seems to me that if you were to overfill your pan, then the cover would compress the powder (at least) and might even not completely close. That would not do you any good. The traditional logic has been not to cover the hole, or at least not to completely cover it. But I think one reason for that design of pan cover is that the cover itself helps keep powder from covering the hole. If it were to be covered, then when you close the frizzen, the pan cover will push the powder down so that the hole is not covered. Anyway, the numbers Pletch posted, which I quoted above, seem to support that traditional logic of not covering the hole. At least that's how I understand it. Again, I'm not claiming to be an expert.
Where you want to put the hole vertically (near the bottom, in the middle, or at sunrise) is then a matter of how much powder you want to put in the pan. If you put the hole at the bottom, then you can't put much powder in there without covering the hole. If in contrast you put it halfway up/down, then you can put in some powder without covering it. If you put it a little higher (at Sunrise, for example) then you can use more powder without covering the hole. (You could probably even use more than is really needed. You can test for yourself and see how much powder you want to use. Many people find that a pinch is actually enough, but some guys like to fill the pan. Either way, as long as it works.)
I build them with the hole at "sunrise" position. Three reasons. 1. It's traditional. (The best English rifles and shotguns have it at that position.) 2. I don't want to cover the hole, as discussed above. 3. I want to be able to use a pick effectively. This last reason is really important, but I think it is seldom understood.
How and when to use a pick is important. It is very common for fouling to obstruct the touch hole channel, especially after swabbing. Pletch mentions this in one of his Muzzleblast write ups. But in the writeup I am mentioning, he only seems to use the pick to clear that hole after swabbing. Basically, he uses the pick to push out fouling that was introduced into the hole during the swabbing process. He observed (through a drilled "observation hole" directly across from the touch hole) that the swab pushes fouling down to the vent hole and into the hole, and then when the swab is withdrawn, some of the fouling stayed in the hole. He then used the pick to try to push it out. But he noticed that the pick would push it out, but the fouling would be stuck to the pick and as the pick was pulled back it would carry the fouling right back into the touch hole as the pick was withdrawn. So, it would push it out, and then deposit it right back where it had been before. And so he wondered then, if the pick was useful. (His solution was to use a pipe cleaner.)
I would suggest that the pick is indeed useful, but when you use it is crucial. I would suggest that the most important time to use the pick is not immediately after swabbing (although that's fine, too). I would recommend, and many shooters would agree, that the most useful time to use the pick is AFTER the bore is charged and the ball seated. Then use the pick to clear the hole and push the pick all the way into the powder until you hear and feel it crunch. (I push it at least half way across the bore, and I hear "crunch, crunch." (I make my picks in such a way that I can push them all the way until they hit the other side of the bore wall if I want without them binding in the hole.) I don't think it would be easy to do experiments with this, as the whole process is hidden, but I think two things are going on there. First, you are clearing the channel, and that eliminates the "fuse effect", which can cause an obvious delay in ignition. Second, if there is a fowling obstruction in the vent channel or at the opening into the bore, pushing that obstruction into the powder allows the obstruction to remain in the powder, so that when you pull the pick out, the fouling doesn't just get carried right back to where it started.
So why do I think sunrise is a good position for using a pick? Because a straight, slightly flexible pick can go all the way into a vent positioned at sunrise without binding. That's to say it rides across the lip of the pan and into the hole very easily. If, in contrast, the hole is positioned lower, then the pick cannot enter without either bending or having been pre-bent. I've seen picks made that way, bent, but I find it easier to use a straight pick. (And most antiques picks that I have seen documented were of the straight type.) If the hole is at sunrise, and the pick is straight and very slightly flexible, then it can enter and never bind. It makes for very easy use of the pick.
While I'm on the topic, I should emphasize that the pick should never damage or enlarge the vent at all. In my opinion, a simple round wire is best. Picks are not digging tools. They are pushing tools.
You guys think about it, and maybe give it a try.
Whetrock
PS: I've not been very consistent here, and I probably used "vent", "vent hole", "hole", and "touch hole". I think Chocktaw Brave used "flash hole". These words all mean the same thing.
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Update, I just finished installing a white lightning liner. The hole came out right where I wanted.
I used a 5 mm center cut end mill to punch the hole offset over the existing hole.
Then I followed with a number three drillbit, and a 1/4” x32 tap. Then I opened up the hole to 063.
I think it came out pretty good for the location.
Hopefully tomorrow, I’ll be able to get to the range and see how much of a difference it makes.
(https://i.ibb.co/cG4Nnss/IMG-7777.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fhjCwTT)
(https://i.ibb.co/B2CT9Lcq/IMG-7776.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gZRtxymz)
Here’s the before picture again;
(https://i.ibb.co/gF7Fgy6n/IMG-7579.png) (https://ibb.co/93v3YnGM)
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The only tests I saw, were those that Pletch posted here. The timing posted above certainly shows the powder "below" the vent as being faster than when covered.
Pretty sure he had noted covered and the vent at the bottom being faster, when he first posted the results here and in the Muzzle Blasts" magazine.
I was not the only one here who questioned this in the original thread here as we were all surprised by this. Perhaps subsequent testing show the original "work" as being an anomalous.
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I managed to go to the range this morning. Vast improvement over the last trip. I shot about 15 shots, swapping the bore after number five, and number 10.
Very quick ignition, I believe that the shape of this liner is 90% of the improvement over the exact location of the liner.
(https://i.ibb.co/p8CmP06/IMG-7801.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hjpqM7x)