AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Chocktaw Brave on November 19, 2025, 07:07:33 PM
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I have an original Moore and Harris 10 gauge shotgun, it is in great shape, but I have been hesitant to try and shoot it. From what I can find, it was made around 1840. It has the words “laminated steel” stamped to the top between the barrels.
The locks function well, trigger pull is good. There are no dents in the barrels, just a minor nick at the muzzle end on one.
What do I need to check to be able to shoot this. Or should I leave it alone?
(https://i.ibb.co/Y7Z5wwKg/IMG-8164.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8DcyttRk)
(https://i.ibb.co/5hFqC9Dd/IMG-8169.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JjQX8dLN)
(https://i.ibb.co/HDcs12V0/IMG-8166.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pvH8GPxg)
(https://i.ibb.co/FbjKNDQ6/IMG-8167.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DDStsRB4)
(https://i.ibb.co/Vp9NNVfZ/IMG-8165.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G3pJJ7zL)
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I hunted small game with an old 20 gauge percussion double for many years before I gave up percussion guns. The nipple seats were the main thing I had to deal with. I had to get some slightly oversized nipples. If the nipples fly off you could be in a world of trouble. I proofed it with an ounce and a half of shot and 100 grains of FFG if I recall. Then got busy hunting with no issues.
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Take the barrels off and cap the nipples. Pour both side full of cheap alcohol and lean then in the corner. Observe to see if the alcohol leaks out anywhere. Most of them were soldered together using an acid flux and they often develop pinholes hidden by the under ribs. If the alcohol level drops over time, it has pinholes. If so, don't shoot it.
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I definitely would like to get a borescope and inspect the insides of the barrels.
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Please follow Dave's advice. A bore scope is also a GREAT idea.
Good looking gun. I'd suggest those nipples need to be replaced before shooting.
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I’ll give that a try, yes it’s in pretty good shape for almost 200 years old. Very solid, I have some single barrel shotguns from the turn-of-the-century (20th)and they’re pretty ratty, loose, I would not think of shooting those.
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I know some have barrel liners installed in original rifles (Bobby Hoyt does a lot of them,) not sure if it works for shotguns
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I've never heard of adding liners to a shotgun barrel, but NE barrels to a SxS shotgun or rifle's breech, cut-off ahead of the chambers.
Adding liners to shotgun bl's should be doable with a 12 down to 20 bore, but that would make it quite heavy, I would think. I suspect a
12 down to 16 would be doable, but the liner would be quite thin, so????
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Take the barrels off and cap the nipples. Pour both side full of cheap alcohol and lean then in the corner. Observe to see if the alcohol leaks out anywhere. Most of them were soldered together using an acid flux and they often develop pinholes hidden by the under ribs. If the alcohol level drops over time, it has pinholes. If so, don't shoot it.
OK, dumb question. Won't the alcohol evaporate? Then the level would appear to drop, on a barrel with no issues?
I have an 1810 era pistol I would like to shoot, so I am following this thread.
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Barrels can be lined, but the resulting barrel is heavy: a lot of the attraction of shooting an older gun is lost when the handling changes that much. If you're interested in the process, look around online for info on "Teague lining". While Teague lining is no longer offered (as far as I know) a couple of 'smiths offer a similar barrel lining for older twist barrels. With ML shotguns, you have the added problem that the barrels have to be unbreeched: for this reason some gunsmiths won't work on them.
TOF has described the standard old-school method of checking for pinholes. DO do this. As a teenager I had one gun that passed an improvised proof test, but as I was inspecting the barrels I realized there were a couple of "smudges" of fouling emerging from under the bottom rib near the breech. When bore-scopes began to be more common, I saw them as an addition to--rather than a replacement for--the alcohol test. I've never been able to see a pinhole with a borescope, despite knowing it was there.
Make sure the nipple threads are good, even if you have to have a machinist make custom nipples with oversized threads. If needed, the seats can usually be cleaned up on top.
Check the locks over carefully. My current shotgun is an old Belgian beater, a heavy-barreled 11 gauge most-likely used by the original owner for waterfowling (I mostly shoot round ball with it). When it was given to me, I carefully tested the barrels (all OK). I fired several shots from the right barrel (no problems) and the left barrel (no problems). The first time I loaded both barrels, the firing of the right barrel jarred the cocked left hammer, firing the left barrel. Got my attention, as I tend to use rather stout loads. (When I fired the left barrel with both hammers cocked, the right hammer fell. . . but at least I had the sense to have not loaded the right barrel for the test!)
The hammers on the gun in the pictures look like they may need some repairs. Make sure the inside of the cap recess is flat (they tend to get pitted rather badly) and the "notch" in the front of the hammer isn't too wide. The notch is to allow the cap to expand on firing, for easy removal; when it gets too wide the caps split and blow scraps of metal all over.
Make sure the standing breech is solidly bedded against the wood. "Oil-rot" will sometimes result in loose bedding. Also check to be sure the wedge is holding the barrels snugly in place. If the gun still has an older ramrod, I usually make a replacement for actual shooting. I've seen more than one bird-shooterwhen the birds are flying hot and heavy launch his ramrod into the air. Check your triggers to make sure they return to the "unfired" position after being pulled.
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Great advice from Habu. I test as does T*O*F, but use either mineral spirits or kerosene. The platinum plugs are often vented and, if so, must also be temporarily sealed. Track sells over sized 1/4 x 28 nipples in + .005" through + .025" in .005" increments, along with accompanying over sized taps. In use, one must tap in .005" increments. Have used them several times with good results and beats the heck out of spending time at the lathe and mill.
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Check for pits in the bore. You will likely see some, and for me it depends on how deep they appear and how many. Take the barrels off the stock, hold and suspend the barrels with one finger and tap them with your finger nail. See if they ring like a bell or more of a dull thud. This will also help tell you if you have a loose rib, top or bottom somewhere.
Years ago, when I first started buying and shoot originals I used to do a proof testing. Take the barrels off, load them with a heavy charge, secure them to an old tire, cannon fuse and a big oak tree to hide behind. I did this a few times and never had one fail. As I learned more from experience, I quit doing a proof testing.
I mostly use only original rifles and shotguns now and if everything seems to check out, I dont worry about it.
Fleener
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I've never heard of adding liners to a shotgun barrel, but NE barrels to a SxS shotgun or rifle's breech, cut-off ahead of the chambers.
Adding liners to shotgun bl's should be doable with a 12 down to 20 bore, but that would make it quite heavy, I would think. I suspect a
12 down to 16 would be doable, but the liner would be quite thin, so????
My friend owned a nice Parker in 12 ga he had lined with 20 ga liners. It was muzzle heavy and handled like a club.
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If this ends up being pitted, or unusable as is, I will not pursue liners, but just keep the gun as is for a wall hanger, conversation piece.
I’ll try the alcohol test this weekend.
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My thought on shooting a laminated shotgun barrel in 10 gauge is “are you nuts” there is about ten things that can go wrong, and most of them involve the gun blowing up. Why risk wrecking an antique gun, and possibly yourself?
Hungry Horse
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I have a friend who is a gunsmith, he collects civil war Springfields,
And after checking them out, he shoots all his guns that are capable.
I think it would be fun to be able to hunt with an original gun. I have a Pedersoli 12 gauge percussion that I can use on any given day. But this would be more fun.
I am planning on taking this shotgun out to him to look at as well. I think he would be the most experienced person I could get to look at it. Without shipping it outside of Alaska.
IF I do decide to load and fire it, I will guarantee you the first couple of shots will be with it strapped to a lead sled. :)
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Just load up a moderate powder charge and an ounce or so of shot and shoot the thing and don't over think it.
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Of course you can shoot original guns. I have in the past but but question my reasoning more these days. Why?
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I think lumping this ten gauge, laminated barreled fowler in with other antique guns is a mistake. The large bore, and the propensity for old laminated barrels to fail with age would prompt me to find an antique gun with fewer potential problems , if I wanted a shooter.
Hungry Horse
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I didn’t buy it as a shooter, I bought it because it was a beautiful piece and at the right price.
But it would be a big bonus if I could shoot it.
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Of course you can shoot original guns. I have in the past but but question my reasoning more these days. Why?
The same reason I shoot 70 year old recurves and 100 year old Winchesters and 150 year old shotguns....The same reason I play 80 year old guitars, fish 1940's bamboo flyrods, soak in a 150 year old claw foot tub and cut my meadow with 19th century scythes....The same reason an original 1970's woodstove is the the sole heat in our 235 year old Log Cabin....(if you don't count the 1960's kerosene stove in the bathroom)
I do have a modern pickup, but I miss my 1966 Bronco pickup and my old Jeepster....What makes originals great is that they are original!!!......Thankfully I have the internet to lament on ;D
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No comparison to most of my originals to what you can get today. For me I enjoy the history, and it brings me joy. Kinda like hunting with my dog. I really enjoy it. And using a 100 year old or older gun AND my dog makes it even a better day.
Fleener
(https://i.ibb.co/8D3qzxKT/Mortimer.png) (https://ibb.co/5WDmYjMt)
(https://i.ibb.co/8D3qzxKT/Mortimer.png) (https://ibb.co/5WDmYjMt)
(https://i.ibb.co/8LggxtGd/3297.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/FbGygm6t/Alex-Henry-314-cal-54-a-1920w.webp) (https://ibb.co/hRp4DLsv)
heic image hosting online (https://imgbb.com/)
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Several years ago I bought an H. Holland double 13 bore perc. to hunt upland birds when I retired. H. Holland of Holland & Holland fame, the gun is in good sound condition, lots of engraving with nice wood. BUT, stuff happens to me. Five years ago I lost one of my legs and upland hunting is out of the question. My advice, go when you still can. ;)
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Taylor shoots his Joseph Lang 16bore rifle, and shoots it well. The rifle was made in about 1853.
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My 13 bore double by Harris Holland I think was made just shortly before he took his brothers son in as a full partner which was when they were called Holland & Holand.
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Well, I’ve got the barrel sitting with alcohol in it, so far it’s been all day and no issues.
And I took the rest of the gun apart. The locks seem to be in really good shape.
The only thing I’ve run into so far is that barrel key escutcheons are broken.
(https://i.ibb.co/yF9y9wxg/IMG-8227.jpg) (https://ibb.co/chBFBGs2)
(https://i.ibb.co/pBnG4PMw/IMG-8228.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C3WNVtY8)
(https://i.ibb.co/yFGgRrNP/IMG-8229.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pjG4PS1w)
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Looking pretty good. I see by the mainsprings, with the hammers at 1/2 bent position,chat you should never let a hammer all the way down if the nipples are removed. The springs will break out the bottom of the lock inlet.
Reminds me, the nipples need to come out and be replaced with modern ones.
Just looked at the locks again and only the left barrel lock will break out the mortise. The right hand lock appears to have a high enough spring not to do that -maybe.
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While I love to shoot old guns I would give some serious consideration to not shooting this one.
This shotgun has seen some tough times. Based on the outside it has seen some use and abuse most likely.
The bores and condition of the barrels and breach are everything on these old girls for safety. While we dont know the condition of the bores if they are anything like the outside of the shotgun, I would not shoot it most likely.
Use it for what you bought it for, hang it on the wall and enjoy it. Spend a few more dollars and upgrade to a better condition original for shooting.
I bought and sold quite a few shotguns when I first started playing with old guns. Played with some, fixed up some. If I lost money on any of them, I caulked it up to my education. Even got taken a few times, but I learned a lot.
Just my opinion
Fleener
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Thanks for the advice on the locks Daryl. I’m going to clean them and add a little grease then reinstall.
After I get done testing the barrel for leaks, I’m going to try and remove the nipples.
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I do have a “new” 12 gauge double percussion. I have not even shot it yet. Hoping I’ll have more time outdoors when I retire.
(https://i.ibb.co/n8YNfHLQ/IMG-8221.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YT1F8zLf)
Here’s a picture of it beside my .58 double rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/jvNrZRxc/IMG-8225.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PZL6zQb7)
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"Appears" there be no nipples in that 12 bore as the hammer is curled over the fence(as it is supposed to be).
I had a Pedersoli Kodiak in .58 and "changed" a few things about it including the crowns. Was a good shooter with both
.021" ticking patches and Lee .562" as well as Lyman .574" and Schiloh mould .575" balls.
I was able to "trim" the nipples a bit to allow the nose of the hammer to curl over the fence as is necessary, by design.
Also, Birchwood Casey's gun blue cold blue turned the bright shiny finish on the hammers, T-guard and locks a nicer dark colour.
(https://i.ibb.co/1tDPnv1Z/58-DRKodiak006-JPG.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JwfGdBVn)
(https://i.ibb.co/pv3JyRp7/58-Kodiak-Re-finish003-JPG-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d0QGgLyT)
(https://i.ibb.co/V0wVwgQc/58-Kodiak-Re-finish002-JPG-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j9JhJyWP)
(https://i.ibb.co/hxMvFpJF/Kodiak019-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LDPfd4Xd)
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You are correct, that picture was taken while I was swapping out nipples. During the great cap shortage of 2023, I was trying out some nipples that took 209 shotgun primers.
But now number 11 caps are plentiful.
The Moore and Harris passed the alcohol test with flying colors. I took it to my friend, and we looked down the bore with a scope, some minor pitting, but I didn’t see anything terrible.
Although the nipples look like they are frozen in place and will definitely need some care in taking out.
And Happy Thanksgiving to all!
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Sounds good. Some maroon scitchbrite with WD40 will polish up those tubes quite a bit.