AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: JTR on February 17, 2010, 02:11:06 AM
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This one was at the local gun show over the weekend and looked like it needed a home. It’s had poor care and the barrel and lock are pitted more than most. Also, it’s been broken through the wrist and has an old repair with some glue and square nails.
The long barrel tang looks original to the gun, but’s it had a short piece added to the end of it for part of the wrist repair. This short piece actually has a lip that slides up under the tip of the original tang for added support. The barrel/tang are put together as a patent breech.
It’s a pretty slender rfle with a butt plate width of a hair under 1 1/8”. The barrel is 44” long, and swamped just a bit. Breech is .855” the waist .800”, and the muzzle .820”
The barrel is 45 cal and rifled, and held in place with three lugs, with silver escutions on the forearm.
Overall length of the rifle is 59 ¼”.
The lock looks like it’s been there a long time, but I’m sure it’s original due to the very thin molding around it. Inside the mortice there’s not really any indication that some other lock had been there before though. On the tail of the lock it’s marked Dublin Castle, and has the Crown over GR mark ahead of the hammer. The lock is original flint, although the hammer is an incorrect replacement. The lock dates much earlier than the gun.
It has a nice beveled side plate on the other side.
Originally the gun had double triggers, but the forward one is missing now.
The patchbox is nice, and one I haven’t seen before. Engraved on the door is some sort of hound critter. Other engraving includes the heel of the buttplate, toe plate, trigger guard, wear plate and rear entry thimble, and all this matches as to hand and design. The silver piece on the cheek might be a later addition, as the engraving is a bit different.
The ramrod thimbles are round, not facceted. The muzzle cap is fastened with two wood screws with the ends peened down inside the ramrod groove.
So that’s what I know.
What I don’t know is where the rifle was made!
The comb of the butt just doesn’t match any location that I’m familiar with. My usual gun show sidekick who generally knows everything about everything is somewhat perplexed, as am I, and are guessing Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia, Indinia, or some other place east of the Missisip, other than PA, VA, Carolina’s, New England, etc.
So what do you guys say? Anyone have any ideas as to location?
John
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I know less than very little about these rifles, but that metal strip under the fore-end intrigues me. I've never seen or heard of one like that. looks like its something one would put on a rifle that would be carried across a saddle a lot
unless someone really mis-drilled a ramrod hole and used that to cover it up---I'll have to file that idea away ;)
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DWS, Brass wear plates like that are fairly common.
Could be to help protect the gun from saddle wear, or just because it looks nice and is another place to engrave,,, or because the ram rod hole came out where it wasn't expected!
John
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An interesting rifle, and my kind of mystery! John, does the little bit of curl showing in the wrist area appear to be artificialy applyed? Or am I just seeing faux stripes in the patina. I have seen a similar patchbox in a book somewhere. A spire finial. I will tear into the books in the morning. Thank you for showing it......Joel
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Joel,
The strip is in the wood, and are fairly wide, and widely spaced. What I think you're seeing on the wrist area is the deterioration of the wood and what looks like an old varnish finish that covers most of the gun.
While I was considering buying the gun I thought I'd seen the box someplace, but a search through my books turned up nothing. If you can find something there I'll certainly appreciate it!
John
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JTR: Have a look at the stock form of the William G Miller in the Museum....PA rifles. Similar with the long narrow wrist???
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=7640.0
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I have seen similar patchboxes before, and think you have a New York rifle. Also, the style of engraving on the patchbox, the animal, and rays above the patchbox hinge, as well as the pattern on the guard's bow, all suggest New York to me, as does the single trigger. The light stripes on the wrist are probably from the wrist being wrapped at one time to support the wrist break. The comb of the butt has probably been changed, i.e. shortened and rounded off at its nose where it meets the wrist, to allow for the longer replacement tang that supports the damaged/broken wrist. The repair has changed the profile of the original butt somewhat, adding to the especulation about stock architecture. Shelby Gallien
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Regarding the lock, a Dublin Castle lock (you have a nice one) is simply an example of the old adage "a gunsmith never threw anything away." It was either recycled in the period from an Irish piece or later applied as a replacement, but a Dublin lock on a Kentucky is not a detractor, but rather cool. I have seen similar locks marked "United States" on purely commercial rifles, one a completely carved J. P. Beck, not a military contract configuration piece. I believe Beck made it this way, as the lock and mortise fit like a tight glove and there are no signs of refitting. Something different.
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I'm coming up empty in my search for that patchbox! Mr. Gallien's thoughts on a New York origin make a great deal of sense, especially with a modified comb line with repairs. I do see something "New Englandish" in the spire finial of the PB. It must just be the common points on many 2 piece New England gun and rifle boxes. I'll keep searching into my archives.
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For some reson the name Ringle sticks in my head for that patchbox.I'll have to do some looking tonight when I get home from work.
Mitch
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Hi John,
Your rifle certainly is an enigma. In my opinion, the lock is from an early model Baker rifle but even that is uncertain because it is labeled "Dublin Castle". I thought production at the Dublin armory ceased in 1798 after the Irish rebellion. I think the lock, if it is from a Baker and of Irish production, is probably as or more historically valuable than the rest of the rifle.
dave
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Dave, I think that you are corrrect, and I think this lock as one of the later ones made there. I've seen the guns in the castle, and others out in countryside castles, rooms full. This looks real. I agree with you, the one thing that attracts me to this piece is the lock, and that is rarely the case.
Incidentally, average man in Ireland today not even allowed to own that lock.
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Thank you guys for the comments!
Shelby might be right about it being a New York gun. Although I haven't found any pics of New York guns, or this patch box. The NY guns here in the museum are later rifles.
After a close look at the comb, I can't tell if it's been cut back or not. The workmanship on that area matches the rest of the gun, as does the color and finish.
The lock is pretty cool! I googled some pics of Dublin Castle locks, and this one looks all correct, other than the hammer being a replacement as I mentioned earlier. Some little bell is ringing in my head telling me that I just might have a correct flint hammer in my box of old stuff.
Dave_Person, I have an original Baker marked flintlock. I can post a pic of it if you want?
Joel, Thanks for looking for the box picture!
The things that attracted me to the gun were the patchbox, the lock, and the general lack of recent restoration on it.
If anyone finds a picture of a similar rifle, or patchbox, please let me know.
John
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Try Jerry Noble's Notes on Southern Long Rifle s, vol 3: 116-15. The 2 circles one superposed on the other shows on that patchbox. That gun too is unsigned & Jerry attributes it to Guilford Co, NC. W hen I was doing photos for the 5 vol set on OH gunsmiths there were 2 such guns, closer the one shown here, both unsigned, both reportedly purchased in central OH. I did not photograph them because I had no idea what they were. Sidearms w/o piercings on a post-Golden Age flint are uncommon in my own experience.
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Thanks so much for the information, Jim!
I don't have Jerry's books, but will see if I can find that one for sale someplace.
A NC attribution would be interesting.
John
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Hi John,
I also looked at some internet sites and you are completely correct. That lock type was used on a number of military models dating from the 1770's-1780's. Particularly, it looks like officer fusils and cavalry carbines used that design manufactured (or assembled?) at Dublin Castle. This is really interesting. Could the gun be made using a lock from a British firearm captured during the Rev. war. Then again, some Dublin locks may still have been on some military guns that saw service during the war of 1812. I don't think the narrow lock moldings alone suggest that the lock was a replacement. In fact, they look really pleasing to me and common on many rifles. Wow, this is really cool. I'd bet this gun has a really interesting story behind it. Sorry that I can't be of more help.
dave
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I have no idea where it was made - the sideplate shape made me think of North Carolina, although it is a fairly common shape that crops up on a variety of guns. The architecture is like some of the earlier Ohio (late flint fullstock) rifles I have seen, with the severely tapering wrist and rounded but high comb. It has really nice lines.
Guy
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The rifle does have a three screw tang which is correct for Guilford County, North Carolina Longrifles. However, the stock architecture and Patchbox design do not fit anything I have seen around here. The side plate is seen on rifles made in Moore County, Randolph County, Chatham County and one early Guilford Rifle. All in all, I don't think it is North Carolina made, but could always be wrong. (Smile).
Michael Briggs
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Michael, Regarding NC rifles, I doubt you're wrong ;D!
Tim M did send me a copy of the NC attributed gun in Jerry Nobles book that Scooter mentioned. It does have the same exact (minus engraving)patchbox, which is interesting. However the architecture, comb and incised line of those guns isn't reflected on this one.
Guy, Thanks for your thoughts. I'll check my books regarding Ohio.
A friend mentioned that he's seen a similar box on a Missouri made gun.
Dave, The lock certainly pre-dates the rifle by a good number of years, although it does look original to the gun. I also like the slender moldings around it as well. Actually the entire gun is a skinny minnie. As I mentioned before, the butt is a little less than 1 1/8" thick, the wrist is only about 1 inch wide and 1 1/4" tall, and the lock / sideplate area just behind the hammer is only 1 3/8" wide.
For now, I'll just keep my eyes open for similar guns. In the end Shelby might be right, or maybe some other area, or it might just turn out to be a gun that can never be pinpointed to a specific local.
I appreciate the help from you guys!
John
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Thanks for the update.
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Hey John, I am beginning to think you need some of us to come out there and help you comb through your local gun shows. Looks like a good hunting ground.
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I really like the look's of that old rifle. ;)
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Wayne,,,,, No, no, you guys just stay back there ;D
It's just a small show, now mostly filled with black guns, beef jerky and beerbelly guys wearing Nascar teeshirts,,, but over the years it's turned up what is evidently the earliest known dated Carolina rifle, a Baum, an Angstatt, an early Lancaster fowler, this one, and a couple others that slip my mind just now, mostly cheap, as not many guys out here like Kentucky's.
John
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Part of the problem with using this patchbox for identification, rather than the other characteristics of the rifle, is that it is probably a commercial box sold across an unknown area. I have seen identical side leaves with different finials, including this one, on a number of guns, and a good share of them from New York. I have seen this complete box once or twice, but don't recall it being on a signed gun. But I think it highly likely that it is a commercial box, not a gunsmith made box, so it doesn't offer much help on identifying guns that it appears on. Perhaps the gun's other characteristics are the best bet for identification. Shelby Gallien
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Shelby that's true. So far it seems this box has been seen on NY, NC, and Missouri guns, so it's certainly made the rounds!
John
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Maybe the smith made her up out of parts that the shop had collected over the years. I does offer building possibilities with TRS selling a similar lock.
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I can't see the engraving on the triggerbow too well, but my impression is that it is rather New Englandish to me. I seems similar to some shown in Grinslade's book on fowlers.
James Levy
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Danny, Levy,
I'm beginning to believe that anything is possible with this rifle ;D
Danny, I looked at the on-line TRS catolog and didn't see that lock. Did you find it in the 'print' edition? I'd like to see what the hammer on their lock looks like.
John
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So JTR what's the game plan for this one ;) I don't see it in pieces yet ! Nice find congrats
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At the Princeton, IL, gun show this week-end there was a fullstocked gun with identical patchbox, single trigger, checkered wrist in style of New York guns, with barrel marked "R. Sterling Newburgh."
In looking through an old Jackson Arms catalog, I saw another full-stocked gun with identical box, barrel signed Wm. B. Fisher, Lynchburg Va." The rifle had a back action lock and double set triggers. This seems to show that the patchbox was in fact a commercial piece that really got around. Sheby Gallien
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Thanks Shelby!
It does seem this box was used far and wide, but was still a new one to me.
Unfortunately I had to tuck the guns away in the safe, and come back to the ship to make some $$$.
About all I'll do to that rifle is replace the missing trigger, and look for a correct hammer for the lock.
Thanks again,
John
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Since we are fairly sure that the lock is an older lock from another rifle, do you think that the hammer is an even later replacement or was it installed at the time of the original build? If it is original to the rifle in hand and the "correct" hammer is re-installed, it would be incorrect for this application, and would also remove a piece of the rifle's history.
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I ran across the photo of a restoration project I picked up a couple years ago. It uses the same patch box as your rifle. I was informed that it resembles other rifles out of NY.
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Pete, If I honestly thought the hammer was an in use item I'd of course leave it, but it looks more like a recent addition as it has none of the 'patina' of the rest of the lock. The lock is original flint, as there's no signs of a reconversion, so perhaps the original hammer was just somewhere along the line. This one isn't far from what it should look like, mostly just the spur behind the jaws is shaped differently. If I can't find a good replacement, this one will still do nicely.
Dave, Before I bought the gun, I don't remember seeing this box before, and now they're coming out of the woodwork like cockroaches! :o
Do you have any pics of the finished restoration on that rifle? Fixing that gun would simply be a labor of love, like I like to do!
Thanks for posting the pictures.
John