AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Leatherbelly on June 25, 2008, 03:15:27 AM
-
First in here?,LOL!! anybody having fun shooting a southern smallbore? Packdog sure makes a fine Baxter Bean and have had nothing but fun shooting it, Will try it for the first time saturday in a competition.Hope I can handle the peer preasure!
-
I had built a .45 poor boy, hand forged Iron trigger guard no butt plate, that I shot a couple times at rondy's and left it with some friends on consignment and just when I was thinking about picking it up to take back home a fellow up and bought it. Now I will have to build another.
Now in light of this. I have heard tell that a person can shoot OO buck shot in a rifle with out trouble but what caliber is OO buck shot?
-
Dave,
Here in Canada they call OO Buck, SG which is .33 cal. if I remember correctly.SSG is .36cal. I think.Would that make it OOO Buck down there?
-
LB - not quite. SSG is .32", same as 00 buck. While LG and 000 is supposed to be .36", but Hornday's swaged 000 is .35" instead - I think. The SSG and 00 are the same size though at .32".
-
Thanks Daryls
Gosh,Daryls,how are you liking this new site. When I went to the Gunbuilding forum,I felt completely intimidated,like I shouldn't even be allowed to look in there! "How Many Guns Have I Built?" Well,none! How many will you build? well,none! Will you ever build one?..well maybe. I just buy the stuff these guys build,sorry.
-
I've built a couple, but nothing I would photograph for this forum. Gladly, I don't have them any more, but at least one owner is still pleased. He has the .44 smoothbore I built. I used .433" balls I think, with a denim patch, of course. That little rifle killed a lot of snowshoe rabbits. It was good for head shtos easily to 40 yards with few misses at 50. The current owner says it's more accurate than his rifle at 80 yards.
; Edited- Oh yeah- like the noew forum- similar to others I frequent.
-
Thanks guys' for lining me out on the caliber for the 00 buck.
-
LB, as pretty as that rifle is, you should win the match on beauty alone ;D
Bill
-
Bill - have you seen any pictures of LB ??? :o OH, you'e talking about his rifle? OK
-
In all my .40 i use a .395 ball with 40 grains of 3 f and .015 Teflon patching from Jerrys archery. all shoot very well . I have a cross stick /light bench barrel in a under hammer in .40 that L. C. Rice gave me from the junk pile , it has won at Friendship and about every where else it has been shot. It is a slow twist ,( i forget what twist it is ) 1 in 50 something .
-
Sam - 1 in 48", about the same as far as the ball is concerned, to a 1 in 50", is considered a relatively fast twist today. Most .45's have 1 in 56" to 1 in 60" twist, with .50's and larger going to even slower twists.
: I'm not surprised your .40 shoots well - about all of them do. What sruprises me is the charge. Mine won't shoot that little amount of 3F, yet it likes 55gr. 2F. One would think I could find a load in 3F that matched the 2F's velocity, but those in the 40gr. to 45gr.3F I tried didn't shoot worth beans. Increasing the load shrunk groups to the point where 65gr. was a ringer, at 2,150fps av. Matching that velocity with 2F also gave similar accuracy, which took 75gr., yet matching 55gr.2F's velocity of 1,795fps in 3F didn't shoot well at all - over doubel the group size.
: BTW - does increasing the charge in your .40 make it shoot higher or lower? Mine shoots lower, but the elevation at 100 yards is the same, at 4 to 4 1/2" low of the sights set at 50 yards.
-
The reject Rice barrel is a 1-56 twist , which is slow for a 40 about all are 1-48. I have 5 barrels in .40 cal and all but one shoot a .395 and Teflon and the 3f. I can't remember what they did going up and down in charge , but what worked best is what they ended up with . I have a GM .40 that takes .410 balls and .010 wonder lube patches and 45 grains of 3f . For some reason i had better groups with the 3f over the 2f.It was the most pickey barrel i ever had to find a load , took one full week,4 hours a day of punching paper to get it right . The only thing i found differant was it has wide groves and narrow lands. I ended winning the .40 cal and under bench match with it at Friendship after that . But still don't like the barrel . My nephew uses it there at Friendship and finished 2nd with it in the JR'S cross stick match. So i guess it is his now . But and i say "But" i use only Elephant, all one lot number and MFG date for the 40's .It is a little weak in the FPS but that is what i got that powder for , so it may be close to a good Goex 2f. My buddy Bill Knight gave me the lot number and date and said get that, so i did ! And on powder i put him up there next to the big guy !!!
-
I all most forgot, i have a 40 by Longhammock that is hard to beat for off hand matches . I won the old Kingsmountain SC. state park offhand match several years ago ( i had better eyes back then ) and at 25 yards i shot a 50-5x all in one hole less than 3/4 of a dime! That barrel is a shooter. I even won a few chunk relays with it at the York shoot and at Friendship , but it is just to light for a good chunk gun !
-
Sam- it is amazing what good eyes and a lot of practise can do for offhand scores, isn't it. I have the first target I ever shot with a Bauska .45 barrel that is tight in the bore at .448" and a .504" groove diameter. It has a .60" twist and .028" rifling of equal depth/width. I used a .457" ball and .022' denim patch. The target is about 3/4" on centres for 5 shtos, 25 yards but was a bit low. Only 3 or 4 of the shots out of 5 are X's (if you score by cnetre of the ball, otherwise they all are. Shooting like that was easy way back when.
-
My wife shoots a .36 flinter in offhand matches. I prefer a larger caliber myself, but there's just something about those Tennessee squirrel guns isn't there?
And You gotta' love Packdogs work and his love of what he's doing.
And LB, if your hecklers are as bad as ours, I feel sorry for ya'.
Kevin
-
Guys, Thanks for the kind words! I really appreciate them. Leatherbelly, I glad to hear you are shooting her. I wish you well in the compittition.
Jim Robeck's (halfmeasures) son just won the KY 4H championship and will be going to Nationals with a gun I built him. It sure would be nice to have 2 in the winners circle.
Cheers,
Ken
-
Awesome rifle Ken !! Did you make the mountings for it also ?
-
FG1,
Thnaks, Are you talking about Leatherbelly's rifle? I did not make those mounts. I did most of the parts for the squirrel rifle pictured in gunbuilding.
-
Daryl- I have a .40 Vincent I just finished, with 36" Green Mountain barrel. It likes 40 grains of Goex 3F, and I shot two six-shot targets of that today, with 40 grains of Goex 3F, .395 ball, Ox Yoke patches and Murphy Oil Soap/ alcohol lube. My first group was with .020 patch and six averaged 1636 fps. Six more with .010 patch averaged 1711 fps, 75 fps faster, 33 spread for that last. Then I tried your 65 grains of Goex 3F, rest of load the same. First shot was 2029 fps, but the next five averaged 2043 fps with ONLY Three feet per second variation! Group was not as small as the 40 grain .010 combo. No cleaning or wiping at all for 18 shots. Then I tried your 75 grains of Goex 2F with .010 patch, and could really feel the fouling. First three shots in one inch, same point of impact as the 65 grains of 3F. Fourth shot, the patch blew. So I cleaned the bore. About a 2.25" group without the flier. Six shots averaged 2044 fps, 43 spread even with the cleaned bore. What patch and lube do you use with 75 grains of 2F and do you wipe between shots? I never have before, but I could not shoot this combo without more lube or wiping, but don't expect to do so. Just curious.
-
Herb,
I know what daryls will say!,LOL! Make sure you have a nicely radiused crown and use a thicker patch. I'd use at least .020 to .022 thou patch.
My 38" Rice .40 uses the same ball diameter. During the colder months I was getting away with a 20 thou patch but noticed during hot weather,my bore was fowling more then during cooler weather. So I'll try a .022 denim patch,Lehigh Valley lube and a .395 ball.
My charge is 50gr. of Goex 2f.Shoots real good.
-
Hi Herb - glad to see the extent of your testing about mirrors the way I do things as well.
In my 42" barrel, 75gr. 2F, 65gr. of 3F or 55gr. 2F all foul about the same (I can't see or feel any difference) - never a problem with loading and I don't wipe - never have, except when testing accuracy of wiping against shooting dirty.
I've been using the 55gr. 2F charge only because I had 4 pounds of 2F and very little 3F - enough for my wife to use in his .45 for our Rondy is all. The best groups I've made with this charge are still double the size I get with 65gr. 3F and a .400" ball and .020" denim patch, LHValley lube. The light 2F load will hold at or just under an inch at 50 yards. Incidently, this 1/2" grouping of the .400" ball is identical in size to the load I found works best in my GM .45 barrel for the same gun - 42", 60" twist, 70gr. 3F or 80gr. 2F, .445 ball and .022"(blue -10oz- denim) patch, LHV lube.
I tried 75gr. 2F as well as 65gr. of 3F with spit lubed patchs, and found the accuracy wasn't quite as good with those loads as with LHValley lube. I am elated with the accuracy and velocity of 65gr. 3F and the heavier 2F load, but they are hard on my meager supply of powder or both grades - I'm about out. I"m hoping hatchet Jack can sell me some to do until Hefley Creek where I can get some more.
I've found the lighter 55gr. load with a .395" ball will allow a thinner patch than the .020" denim (8 ounce) that I use, but I am leary of using a thinner patch that might not stand up in the increased temperatures which are bound to happen at Hefley. Thus, I use the .020" or even some .023"(black- 10oz) that I have as well. I've also found the .400" ball shoots identically to the .395" when using the light 55gr. charge of 2F, however 65gr. 3F and 75gr. 2F shoot better with the .400" ball and a .018" to .019" "cottom duck" . For Hefley, I'll just sight for and use .020" denim and 65gr. 3F for the entire shoot as it loads easily, shoots cleanly and is the most accurate load I've found so far.
Herb - my wife's .45 GM barrel, only 32" long, shoots very well, about 3/4" at 50 yards using a light charge of 50gr. 3F, .020" denim, LHV lube and a .440" ball. I've done only a little load developement with this rifle, but know it'll shoot better with more load development. She shot about 25 rounds last Sunday, her first ML shooting since our first daughter's birth, 28 years ago and had no difficulty loading - no wiping needed, of course.
-
I have always used thick patches but this .40 Vincent drove me to try Goex 2F as well as 3F, Swiss 2F, .400 balls and thus the .010 patch. To my astonishment I found the .010 patches gave better accuracy and higher velocity than .020 patches. Using .395 and .400 cast balls (not much difference in velocity or accuracy) but with both .010 and .020 Ox Yoke lubed with Murphy Oil Soap/alcohol, the .010 loads were 148 fps, 222 fps and 75 fps faster. I don't know why such a difference between the patches and why the re-tests were different. I expected the patch to tear with 65 grains of Goex 3F, but they did not. When I had fouling with the 75 grains of 2F, it was a new experience for me. I should have used the thick patches and more lube, but was out of time. Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual shows them using .010 pre-lubed OxYoke patches with round balls in .32, .36, .45 (no .40 loads), .50 and .58 calibers. In .54 they used .015 Ox Yoke.
I appreciate your sharing your experience with your rifles and loads.
-
Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual shows them using .010 pre-lubed OxYoke patches with round balls in .32, .36, .45 (no .40 loads), .50 and .58 calibers. In .54 they used .015 Ox Yoke.
Those experimenters at Lyman, seem to be stuck on .010 shooting patches. An earlier handbook has them using .010 patches and Crisco for the lube...
Edd
-
I was quite surprised with the choice of patches by Lyman in the early BP book written in the 70's. there is stil a lot of good info in that book. Too bad it's out of print as it covered the .40's in several barrel lengths.
I haven't seen mine for many years - maybe I lent it out & it never returned. Like that hasnt' happened before ::).
One aspect of loading I found most interesting, was velocity vs pressure similarities no matter the calibre.
While the small calibres more easily run into speeds of over 2,000fps, they do not do it without producing high pressure. The reason we can load them to produce those velocities is the lack of recoil on our shoulders - we allow or we load them to those speeds and don't think twice about the pressure being produced. What I'm getting at, is the .40 or .45's produce roughly (not identical of course) the same pressure when running 2,200fps at the bigger bores when they are producing 2,200fps, yet we tend to think of a .62 running 1,800fps as being a heavy load, (it is recoil-wise), when indeed, it is producing very little pressure. The larger bores, with common or even 'heavy' loads are running very low pressure, compared to what we regularly run in the little ones. The powder seems to be a limiting factor in really big bores, as I found it literally impossible to get my 14 bore over 1,800fps even using loads one would think of as being excessive. The recoil was, but certainly not the pressure.
My .40 gets 1,800fps with as little as 55gr. 2F - which I think of as a light load, but the 14 bore produced a mere 1,770fps with 330gr.2F - not a pleasant load to shoot, let me tell you, yet still, it was producing no more pressure than my 'light' .40 cal load.
-
How do you measure pressure small bore vs big bore?
Thanks,
Bill
-
When Lyman did the testing, they used a lead crusher instead of a copper crusher, but probably the same picture to hole the pellets. The modern way would be with a pezio pressure adapter for the barrels or an electronic readout from a sensitive apparatuse attched tot he barrel -maybe that 's the same thing . It measures using strain gauges or something similar and gives direct readouts in pounds per square inch (PSI).
In the crusher system, a hole is bored in the barrel, and non-deformable plunger inside the hole. On top of the plunger is a plug of maleable metal, copper or lead depending on the range of pressures being measured, that is held there by the fixture above, which is also non-compressable. Below about 15,000 copper units of pressure, lead is used instead of copper, for the crusher. Above that level of pressure, copper is used. The shot is fired and the presssure generated pushes the non-deformable plug up against the 'compression plug' and compresses it in length. The resulting plug is measured in length and the difference in length from new to compressed is comparred to a Tarrage table, which gives a # expressed in lead or copper unites of pressure, thus the letters Lyman used as designating pressure in LUP or CUP.
In Europe, they use a similar system, called CIP (not sure waht thos leters mean), but they also call the resulting number, PSI - or pounds per square inch - which it actually isn't. This creates a LOT of confusion amongst the ranks. We know here, that the CIP number is very close to the US system of CUP numbers (similar numbers), and that the newer electronic measuring devices that read out in PSI give numbers very much higher than the numbers given by either CUP, LUP or CIP.
We are told you cannot convert CUP or CIP to real pounds per square inch. That is so, but we also know that straight cased rounds, such as the .45/70, the other Sharps rounds, as well as straight pistol cases when tested on a crusher machine giving CUP numbers, that those numbers are almost identical to electronic PSI generated numbers. What this means, is if the .45-70 or .45/120, .44 magnum or whatever straight case, gives 28,000CUP, that it is actually producing 28,000PSI as well. This co-relation is not generated with bottle necked cases, ie: for example, a .270 producing 55,000CUP, is actually producing 63,500 PSI, not 55,000PSI, while other cases/rounds producing 57,000CUP, are actually making 62,000 or 63,000PSI. There is no cross referencing or formulation that is accurate for comparing these numbers produced by cottle necked cases - they all vary to one degree or another, as most all bottlenecked cases don't produce consistant differences between the PSI and CUP numbers.
Unfortunately, through the 1900's to about 1990, some writers and book writers were expressing CUP numbers for modern rounds as being PSI. Even PO Ackley did this in the .50's. They didn't have the electronic or pezio testers to show them there was a difference and that CUP numbers could not be converted to PSI. This has caused a lot of confusion in relation to actual pressure. We know today that PSI is repeatable, while CUP, due to the mechanical nature and quailtiy of materials used being 'sloppy', produces numbers that are considered inconsistant today. It was OK back then, but this is today.
What does this mumbo-jumbo have to do with us? Our muzzleloading barrels are very similar to straight cased rounds, that's what. This means that CUP or CIP or LUP numbers are close enough to actual PSI to use them interchangably. So- if the readout is 15,000LUP, that load is producing very close to 15,000PSI as well, 8,000LUP is very close to 8,000PSI, etc. The reason for mentioning all this, is to give some meaning to the nomenclature used by industry, etc. Being able to use PSI gives us a base of comparrison - 15,000 PSI is not much, but is considered very close to maximum usable pressure for an open ignition system. Closed systems, and finely tuned systems can absorb more, such as the slug guns, platinum lined nipples, etc. Normal muzzleloading systems burn out with high pressure. Note that Accurate Arms loading manual gives PSI readouts for the Sharps rounds loaded with their powders. They first used GOEX in the appropriate, original-type loads, recorded the pressure, then developed load with their powders to match the pressure of those BP loads. The .50/90 using a 450gr. bullet, 90gr. of powder, produced something like 28,000PSI. The .45/70 BP factory-type load produced 22,000PSI. That was 70gr. of 2F with a 405gr. lead bullet. No wonder the modern black powder slug shooters need special nipples for their rifles. Some have said a regular stanless nipple lasts for only 5 to 10 shots. It's all about the pressure being generated. I shudder a bit when I recall the 120gr. 2f charges I used to shoot in the 15/16" barrel, poorly designed cast breetched TC "Hawken", with 370Maxi's and 450gr. Lyman bullets. No wonder I needed to replace nipples often. It didn't take long before the hammer was being lifted off the nipple to 1/2 cock.
Note in Lyman's book, they loaded to a maximum of around 15,000LUP. Look at the velocity of the ball. Compare that velocity to another calibre, and you will see that the larger or smaller gun produced the same velocity at the same pressure.(the numbers vary slightly, but not much). Note in the .58 cal. gun tested, they used powder charges up to 160gr. or 170gr. of GOX and 180gr. of 3F C&H powder, yet the pressure was still below the 15,000LUP(PSI) used as max in the smaller bores. We know today, that the powders being produced are somewhat stronger than those used when Lyman published the 'book' - BUT - what we also know, is that when the velocity is the same, so is the pressure, ie: a .69, if producing 2,100fps, it is producing the same pressure as a .50 cal rifle producing 2,100fps.
Take a look at their data and find a .45, .50 or ..54 producing 1,200fps and read off the pressure. In a .73 or .75 cal gun, it takes 120gr. of 2f to produce that velocity. This shows the big ones operate at very low pressure.
All kinda interesting - no?
-
Thanks for that valuable info,Daryls! I going to dig out that old Lyman book I have buried somewhere. Cheers!
-
I also regularly shoot a .40 Flint Tennessee. I would have to say it is my favorite rifle!
It was built as a suprise gift from my oldest/longest friend and hunting partner. It was given to me with the admonishment to never to shoot it off the bags! I have honored that request, and let me tell you that is a difficult thing to do. It is as accurate as I can hold and I have been a lifelong offhand shooter.
This rifle seems to love 45 grains of 3f and a .395 ball with a .010 spit patch. Other than a couple of no humidity Dec/Jan months, I can load and shoot all day without pulling a patch! And man the lock is fast! With a good flint you would never learn to flinch. Hurrah for flint 40 caliber. tim
-
Dayrl,
Thanks for the explanation. I thought you were conducting you own test which is why I ask the question of you. I don't have a Lyman manual.
Does the higher pressure relate the the lesser square inches of volume in the smaller bore? In the case of catastrophic failure, I guess the bigger bore would be more violent at equal pressure because of the volume of gasses????
Thanks,
Bill
-
Bigger the charge, bigger the blow, I'd assume. An overload that would blow a 13/16" or 7/8" .40 cal barrel probably doesn't exist - not if black powder was used. I would suspect the vent, or the plug might be ejectedm though.
; I suspect a musket barrel will blow with a much lower pressure and indeed, if properly breeched, the thin barrel would probably burst - BUT - note you would need an enormous powder charge. I suspect a 12 bore would require so much powder, that detonation would result, not burning of the powder properly. It is impossible to get a 12 bore ball doing the same speeds you can get from a .40 or .45. I'll take a wild stab at it and say you'd probalby need 1,000 gr. of fine powder to burst a 12 bore musket barrel that has a wall of .150" at the breech. I don't know if this would do it, and I personally won't be testing this 'wild' theory. Can you imagine the recoil? The heaviest BP 12 bore ctg. load of the 19th century was not 7 drams as I thought, but is listed as 9 drams, which is 245.7gr. This was with a 590gr. round ball as well as the 750gr. Paradox slug. Recoil is healthy, but the tubes are not way oversize - gun weight 10 to12 pounds. Step up to the plate and give it a whirl.
-
The next rifle for me needs to be a long one.I'm thinking 46" barrel minimum. Also really like Jim Chambers' smooth rifle that's rifled but I think I want a .40 or a .45 as a maximum caliber. Jim offers it in a .50 . Shoulders no good anymore. I do like the look of that "kit" Jim! Slimness seems to appeal to me as I get more senile! Taylors Kuntz is sure sweet to hold. I think it's a .4o ,"B" weight Rice at 48". Maybe a "B" weight 48" in a .45 might be nice.
Problem with living way up here,we don't get to handle all the nice products that you lucky fellows in the south do. Here,it's hit or miss,trial and error. ::)
If anyone has a suggestion where to shop/inquire about a smallbore long barreled rifle kit,e-mail me or post on here..I've been spoiled with J.Chambers stuff so I'm picky when shopping for a slim ,bird like longrifle.Thanks in advance.
-
I agree, that Kuntz is a pleasure to hold and shoot. Taylor shot it better than his "Ginny' at the local rendezvous. Great rifle!- Oh, I think I may have already implied or said that at some point in time. What a RIFLE!
-
Daryls,
I must concur, that is the nicest gun to date that I've ever handled.
-
When I do my part,this little forty does hers! Split the two of clubs (card shoot) yesterday.Not only cut the card,but cut it right down the middle,so that when the two pieces are put together,they are exactly the same. Done it before with a smoothbore,but that's a big ball,no prob.,no big deal. Not bragging,but never done it before with a rifle.Makes a fella feel good!
-
Did that at Hefley last year with my .40 - no problem.
;D