AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Herb on September 12, 2008, 09:04:11 AM
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(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/189.jpg)
Noting Daryl's good results with .40 caliber loads of 65 grains of Goex 3F and 75 grains of Goex 2F, I tried them. At the same time I tried three patch thicknesses. (I can't get my photos to come up now, except for this one). Top rifle is my Thomas Oldham Bedford I built, 42" Green Mtn barrel, 1-48 twist. My inlays are sterling silver. Left target is 60 grains of Goex 3F and .010 Ox Yoke patches. (I also used 65 grains, but can't get that photo now).
Second target is same but with doubled .010 Ox Yoke patches to make .020 (ran out of .020). An earlier group with this same load and .020 Ox Yoke patches gave the same 3 3/8" group size.
Third is same load but .015 Ox Yoke, which behaves like the .010, both giving higher velocity than the .020.
Top right is .015 Ox Yoke and 75 grains of Swiss 2F, lube being my cleaning solution of equal parts of Murphy Oil Soap, 70 % alcohol and hydrogen peroxide. AND I wet a cleaning patch with this and put it on the jag as I seated the ball (after using a short starter), thus cleaning the bore on top of the ball. The last six inches or so of the bore was fouled some, but nowhere near as much as with 75 grains of Goex 2F, which I shot earlier. I swabbed the lower bore as I withdrew the rod and left the bore wet. Except for this, I did not wipe or swab the bore for all four targets.
Bottom rifle is my .40 Wigle, 44" Rice barrel, 1-48" twist. Left target is 65 grains of Swiss 2F and .015 Ox Yoke, my usual Murphy Oil Soap and 91% alcohol patch lube, but no wiping or cleaning.
Second target is 75 grains of Swiss 2F and .015 Ox Yoke patches. My lube was the cleaning solution, but no cleaning patch on the seating jag, and no wiping. The fouling was not a problem. That dropped first shot could be how I saw the sights. They are open, and I'm still changing them so I can see them better. Got almost 76,000 miles on these old eyes, had iritis in 1962, down to 20/200 in my left eye, recovered, but now have vitreous separation there and the start of cataracts in both eyes. Can still see to shoot the gnats off a whisker, or is it the whiskers off a gnat?, so I don't claim an eyesight alibi. I guess I just saw that shot differently.
For each target (except the 3rd, where I ran out of Goex 3F in my powder horn) I shot a bore seasoning "fouler" on the lower right target. I plotted the relative strike of each on its proper target. If the velocity was much different, I omitted it, otherwise left it in.
I used Swiss 2F because 75 grains of Goex 2F fouled so badly I either had to wipe between shots (I'm too lazy to do that) or use a cleaning patch on the jag as I seated the ball. But there was so much fouling that it was hard to seat the ball, and I had to jab it down to the mark on the rod. I have no plans to do any more of that, this was just experimental for me. Nor do I intend to use any more loads at these high velocities, except in testing. I like the least amount of powder that groups very well, but I still don't know what that is.
When I get my photos figured out, I'll post some more. But I'll not mess with the color/brightness, etc.
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I brought forward some of the data in my chronographing thread for comparison so I did not have to go back a couple of pages. It also included some of Daryl's results. Your data is more or less in line with others. For accuracy, Daryl uses heavier charges of 2F. I think it may be due to less shot to shot variation. My own observations and testing has convinced me that smaller bores are made with too slow a twist. A 1-48 inch twist in a 40 is not as fast as a 1-48 45 due to the angle of the twist. In the 32's it is very slow. I, like you, tried the 40 (and I also tried 32's) because I wanted economy with performance. I never really saw it as the smaller bores seemed to like to be loaded a little hotter. I went to the 40 over the 32 becasue the 32 needed to be loaded at a level that would blow small game in half to get any accuracy. The 30 grain charge in my 40 is still pretty stiff for small game. For targets the 40 was OK, but I have found the 45 to give as good of accuracy with almost identical charges. The 40 is popular, especially on targets, and is afun gun to shoot. Smaller bores can also be made into pretty sleek looking rifles.
DP
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Can I assume you shot these groups at 25 yards? I can only say that they are not very good. I shoot a .395 ball,
.o15 thick ox-yoke patch, and 50 grains of FFF Goex and it will keep all the shots inside a nickel.....I've won a lot of matches with this gun. We made a heavy, cross-stick barrel for a friend in N.H., 40 cal, 1/66" twist. He shot 80 grains
of FFF, and it shot outstanding. He showed me a target that he shot for practice at Friendship. He puched out the ten
ring on each of six targets, put the same target up the next day and enlarged each hole....now that impressed me. I
forgot to mention that my own gun in 40 cal. has a 1/48" twist....it is a straight 13/16" barrel.......Don
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No, these are at 50 yards. See caption of top right target. And the light kept changing with clouds and sun or shade on my sights, over maybe three hours of shooting. I shoot mostly 40 grains of Goex 3F, which is plenty for rabbit hunting. But I have shifted up to 50 grains, that groups better. And that is why I went up to 60 3F here, to compare to Daryl's 65. I tried these heavier charges just for comparison to Daryl's results and then modified them some, just for testing. I had built my first Wigle rifle copy with a 1-66 twist Rice barrel and I thought this also was a slow twist barrel until I checked my records. The original Wigle rifle seemed to have about a 1-90 twist, as near as I could measure it with the rusted muzzle. It was about .40 caliber, but could have been a .38. I think LC Rice told me that in his 1-66 twist .40s some shooters were using 90 grains of Goex 3F, but I'd have to find my notes. I agree with you that these groups are not very good. But if I cleaned the bore after every shot and put them all in one fat hole, like I used to do with bench rest centerfire rifles, I guess I could quit hunting for accurate loads. I think that with better sights I could shoot better groups, but these are relative, and the .010 and .015 patches seem to group better than the .020 with my testing.
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Northman, here is a slim .36 Samuel Faries (Ohio) flintlock I built. I copied it as exactly as I could from Whisker's "Ohio Long Rifles Volume I". Also on cover of Hutslar's "ohio Gunsmiths & Allied Tradesmen Volume I" and in Whisker's "Behold the Longrifle". Sterling silver inlays. I only got to shoot it about a dozen times to sight it in before Sandy saw it and sat down and wrote me out a check when I said what I wanted for it. She gave it to her husband Keith for a present. Here he is at Neill Field's squirrel shoot, with a 100 hard offhand target. The hole in the head is someone else's. One shot nearest to center. See that .36 caliber hole in the center paster? And I don't even know what load he used. Is that good enough accuracy, Don?
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/keith100.jpg)
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Herb - interesting results. I think if you try a real .020" patch, you'll find better accuracy than cobbling one out of two .010's.
One of these days, I should try the wiping/shooting deal and see if it is more accurate, but that's a considerable amount of work - might do it again, but then? Last time I tested the two methods was 25 years ago and it was a pain to wipe between shots then so I don't expect it will be any different today. The wiping gave poorer accuracy, BTW.
As DP said, the reason I tried up to 75gr. of 2F was to get the same accuracy as I achieved with 65gr. 3F, both GOEX. Not only was the accuracy the same, but so was the velocity, well close - only 13fps difference between the 2 loads. 2,147fps for 3F compared to 2,160fps with 2F. This was with a .40" ball and .020" denim patch. My barrel is 42" long, 48" twist and 7/8" octagonal.
The search for accurate and consitant loads thus having another reason to go to the range is what keeps this sport all the more interesting.
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Small bores can be accurate. When I see one shot hit a target like that at any range, my next question is "how many times in a row can he do it'?. My point is that I have little use for a 32 or 40 driving a ball at 1900 fps, but a lot of use for one driving an accurate shot at 1200 to 1300. for target work the small bores permit more shooting with less fatigue and are a little more economical. I got into a shootoff one time against an individual shooting a 32. We both split the playing card. I was using my 40. I won, but the shoot off was at a dot. I also shot a pile of squirrels with a 45 and about 40 grains of powder. Little difference in meat damage between that and a 32 with 20 grains. There's only so much head to blow off.
DP
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DP- I found that with the .69 and 30gr. 3F on snowshoes hares. it worked abotu identically to Keith's .75 rifle and 40gr.
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That kind of agrees with what I mean about my disillusionment with small bores. Its personal and I am not saying it to spoil it for those that like them, but I just found that a bigger bore worked as well loaded down as a small bore. It is a lot easier to load a 50 cal down than a 40 up for bigger game. The 45 and 50 cal are really pretty special calibers, they can be loaded to about 1900 fps without tearing your shoulder off and work OK for medium sized stuff like deer and black bear. They can also be loaded down for small game. Your 69's and large bores are working for you the same way. You have a greater lead cost but the powder costs are pretty reasonable. They must perform about like a thrown rock with that light of a charge, but likely surprises one. Again, I fully understand why some like the small ones, as they are kind of fun.
DP
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Here is another 75 grain Goex 2F load. Shot in my .40 Vincent I recently completed, with a 36" 1-48 twist Green Mountain barrel. Open sights. 50 yards from rest. Patching was pink and white Wal Mart pillow ticking, lube was Murphy Oil Soap and 91% alcohol. The fouler was shot on a separate target. The two added square marked shots were with doubled .010 Ox Yoke patches. The bore fouled so much that I loaded with a wet cleaning patch on the seating jag and wiped the bore on the way out. This is tricky, because that fouled bore makes it hard to seat the ball. If you try this, be sure to mark your rod and jab the ball all the way down.
By the way, Don, are your nickle-sized groups at 25 or 50 yards? I assume they were off hand? I don't have that level of skill. Yet.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/178.jpg)
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Another .40 rifle and 75 grains of Goex 2F load. This is Carole's flintlock which I built, 36" Green Mountain barrel, 1-48 twist. This is the rifle with the butterfly and eagles on it. She killed a mule deer buck with it last fall using a double ball load for legal ball weight in the .40 caliber.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/183.jpg)
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Interesting results, Herb. I am assuming you are stil getting blow-by to some extent to rather serious. Although my barrrel is 6" longer than your's, an increase of 260fps from mine over yours with the same powder charge shows something is going on other than barrel length. To, mine doesn't foul the bore and is easily loaded. There is no need to wipe the bore at any time no matter what the humidity is.
Congrats to your wife on the deer. I recall someone from another muzzleloader forum testing double balls in their .40 to make legal hunting weight in a particular State. I recall at 50 yards, the balls printed very closely together, sometimes almost touching which would prove quite lethal, of course. I did the same type of testing in my .58 once - balls (both patched) usually impacted into a 6" circle at 50 yards. Recoil, of course was about the same as shooting the heaviest slug available at that time, the 570gr. ball-nosed blunt from Lyman. The velocity was such that trajectory was horrific - same as a minnie. The .40 would be much better in regards to trajectory.
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The mention of the double ball load rang some bells. Lyman had pictures of one double ball load at slightly ovet 1200 out of a 58 that was welded together. Another that was seperated at 1100 fps. While I never tried them in a smaller bore they would make an interesting combo for shooting bigger game. A double ball load in a 40 would weigh about 190 grains. Could do some interesting things. Another picture Lyman had was that of a 440 round ball deformed by the shock waves at 2200 fps. They would definitely hit harder than a supercharged load with one ball. I remember watching a stake shoot and seeing splinters fly all over the place. When I asked the individual what he shot he laughed and stated that he had double balled the load (on purpose). What powder charge did the wife shoot to take the mule deer? One thing I am noticing about your results is that the fouling shot is lower velocity than the others. I ahd the same experiences. I think Daryl's comments about blow by might be correct. Although I did use a little heavier patching, I tended to use slightly smaller ball for easier loading when I quit target shooting such as 530 instead of 535 in the 54. I used to use .400 in the 40 but now buy the 395.
DP
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DP- in Lyman's tests with the welded together balls, they didn't have a patch between them. I could see using a card or cloth wad to eliminate the welding together factor. I'm not sure I would want that, but then, fo big game with a small bore, perhaps that would be something to attempt to help along.
The flattened .45 ball, according to Lyman from the shock wave, may have been from set-back- ie: obturation caused by the higher pressure involved in heavier loads, or perhaps as they said, indeed, caused by the shock wave. Wish I could find my copy of the book - getting tough to remember everything what had to say about their photos Their drop figures were handy, but rather restrictive. It's nice to have a program that is adjustable, like the point blank program - and it's free. A simple google search should bring it up for download. I use it often.
Chronographing double ball loads could be hard on the light screens - I suggest the large area one's like on the Gamma Master Chrony or those that come with the more expensive computers like Oehler and Pact. Aiming toward the top of the screens would to a good thing until one knows what the average results are, as to ball location. The velocity results from several calibres and loads would be very interesting.
I now have a .50 Flinter to test as well. It's a canoe gun, old Siler without fly - fantastic sparker - new .50 Bauska barrel only 21" long. Handy little thing, mostly English Styling - bit short in the pull at 13 1/4", but still quite shootable. One merely puts the shoudler a bit forward. Should be fun.
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Daryl- I have found that larger diameter balls and/or thicker patches give lower velocity that smaller balls or thinner patches. I do not question your velocities, but I thought them very high and so I tested your loads first for accuracy and caught velocities as I went. I have .400 balls and will try them with .020 Ox Yoke patch (as a standard) and see what I get. My Bedford barrel is 42" and it got about 1925 fps with 75 Goex 2F (large variation due to fouling and cleaning patch on jag, etc). The Wigle barrel is 44", and I did not try the 75 Goex 2F in it. the Vincent is 36" and got 1966. Carole's rifle is 36" and it got 1897.
That was my posting on double-ball loads with Carole's rifle. She said she used 70 grains of Goex 3F. There is so much velocity drop with double (patched) balls that it takes 70 grains to equal the velocity of 40 grains with a single ball. I DO NOT RECOMMEND USING DOUBLE BALLS. The can be very accurate, and in this case meet a legal requirement for ball weight for deer hunting (as recommended by a game warden friend), BUT you really have to have both balls down on the powder and make sure they don't separate, which would mean a bore obstruction and a damaged bore. This was a special application, Carole used a rifle I custom built for her, (12 1/4" length of pull, I think), about a 1 1/2 pound single trigger I made, coned muzzle, very easy for her to load and shoot. She and her husband are both hunter safety instructors and have hunted for years and both are very careful and skilled shots with rifles and shotguns. She is aware of the precautions necessary for using double patched balls and only uses them for deer hunting. BUT- DON'T ANYONE CASUALLY USE THIS DOUBLE-BALLING TECHNIQUE FOR THE SAFETY REASONS DETAILED HERE.
Northman- Keith's shot happened exactly as I described it and it was just a dumb fluke. He can't shoot that well, nobody can see those open iron sights well enough to hold that exactly, and there probably is no muzzleloader that can shoot that precisely. But ain't it cute? That lower velocity with the first shot of a changed load is common, that is why I shoot it on a fouler target and delete is from the rest of the string if it is much different.
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Herb.....Off hand, ha, ha, ha....now that's funny. Sorry, never on my best day. I can recall shooting that first gun I built
with a 7/8" straight Douglas barrel in 45 cal, I could keep them in a 2" black dot at 50 yards off hand, but that's long
ago. I can recall shooing that Crow target at 25 yards, off hand, and getting a group about nickle sized, and I was thrilled to death. I have shot dime sized groups with a 36 cal. flinlock off a rest at 25 yards...it was so good, I carry it
around in my wallet. I recall the first time I met V Jones from down in N.C.. He was at the Alvin York chunk gun shoot
with Earl Lanning, and he produced a similar target out of his wallet..............Don
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Thanks, Don. Nice to hear those names.
Here are my targets where I shot the 75 grains of Goex 2F in my Oldham Bedford. The balls were so hard to load because of fouling that I tried several things, so it was not a consistent test technique. Still, they seemed to want to group. But this was so much trouble that I went to Swiss 2F.
I use a steel range rod, but it had 8x32 threads and I use mostly 10x32 jags, so I drilled it out and tried to tap it 10x32. Very hard to do, only got about 1/4" of threads. Screwed the jag in finger tight and managed to lose it in the bore while seating the fourth shot of the middle top target. Thought that shot kicked harder than usual, but the velocity was way low. I shot that jag through the target! It weighed 162 grains. So there is your double ball with lower velocity.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/OW958.jpg)
Next my .40 Vincent I built for a dentist friend. Instead of putting the boar's tusks in the stock, of the particular Vincent I copied, we chose human teeth. Neat, huh? This target tested .400 balls with 40 grains of Goex 3F and first .020 Ox Yoke patches and then .010 Ox Yoke, no wiping between, everything else the same. The .010 patches were 222 feet per second faster. This was only one test, I doubt that great velocity difference would continue, but there it was.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/170.jpg)
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Since the double ball load was recommended by a game warden to make weight it is likely legal in your state. Giving it a little thought, in Minnesota a young anal game warden might say that it was not. The law states a "single" bullet. However a 40 with a single ball is legal, with a double ball it may not be. I wonder if they need to be driven with so heavy a charge? In a 50 a double ball would weigh about the same as some of the slugs used, like maxi balls. They do have historical precendent. They would be mostly a close range use anyway such as for black bear over baits as hunted in MN. The reason I mentioned the deformed 45 ball was that at higher velocities there is some evidence of deformation. Whatever the cause, the deformation could start to interfere with accuracy.
DP
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Herb- I fully realize the projectiles must be on the powder - that isn't in question here.
I find your velocities very low and that is why I questioned them. Have you tried the .020" patch with the 75gr. 2F load and what velocity did you get. Showing speeds for 40gr. of 3f has little in common with 65gr. of 3f or 75gr 2F - maybe? As to loading hard- never. We shoot all day with no wiping, no patched jag on the loading rod - I use a hickory ramrod for all my loading. Mind you, at the range it is a spare so I don't have to keep pulling out my gun's rod each time. As to the velocites, I've re-checked them on two occasions and have checked my chronograph against known loads from other rifles with normal readings. Why you'd get higher speeds with poorer seals is interesting. Logic states the better seal should give better speed. A bare round ball is slower than a tightly patched one.
The accuracy shown in the top targets is intersting - with a good patch, the accuracy should improve and tighten up those loose groups.
: As to the second target with the light loads I can only say your results differs exactly 180 degrees from mine. I find that when patches are so thin they disintegrate or even burn through slightly, there is no accuracy - shots are all over the place. Your target shows your best shooting is with burning patchs - interesting - perhaps the chunk and bench rest boys are going in the wrong direction with their tight loads?
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Daryl, I did not put that caution in there for you, but for anyone else who might read this thread and want to try double balls.
The Vincent rifle load showed difference in velocity for .010 and .020 patches. I do not have it now to test it with 65 or 75 grains.
The patches did not burn, except for the Goex 2F 75 grains. I can not advise anyone else on what to do or what their loads might get in velocity or accuracy, I only report what my results are.
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Daryl, my chronograph is an Oehler 35P, and I have measured many thousands of rounds through it. I have chronographed at least 13 different .40s. They all get velocities similar to what I am showing here. I do not question that you are correctly reporting velocities that you got, but they are a lot higher than my rifles get. My powder is Goex 3F and 2F that I picked up at Coonies in Hobbs, NM two years ago, so components and chronograph accuracy are not in question.
Checked my book, and I did shoot a bunch of loads through that Vincent. I got the barrel as a take-off from another gunsmith, and I checked the bore. It had not been used much. I fitted a plug and the rest of the rifle but could not get it to group. That is why I shot it so much, thinking it was just a matter of finding the right load. Early on I suspected the rib might be a problem. Later I pulled it off and found it bent down about 1/8" in the last six inches at the muzzle. I straightened it, added two more screws for five, and that cured the accuracy problem. So, here are the loads and results: (There is no wiping between shots or cleaning during any session, except I cleaned before the Vincent group shown above).
40 gr Goex 3F cast .395 .010 OxYoke, spit, 4 shots/mean1637/spread 85 fps.
40 G3F .395 .020 OY, spit, 5/1503/55
40 G3F .400 .010 OY, spit, 5/1650/27
40 G3F .400 .010 OY, spit, 5/1667/28
cleaned and dried bore
40 G3F .400 .020 OY, spit, 5/1432/157
40 G3F .400 .010 OY, spit, 3/1654/50
40 G3F .395 .020 OY, Murphy Oil Soap/alcohol, 5/1642/38
40 G3F .395 .010 OY, MOS/al, 6/1711/33
65 G3F .395 .010 OY MOS/al, 5/2043/3 (yes, three)
75 G2F .395 .010 OY, MOS/al, 6/2044/43 (one patch blew)
40 G3F .395 .010 OY, MOS/al, 4/1645/62
40 G3F .395 .020 OY, MOS/al, 5/1618/51
65 G3F .395 .020 OY, MOS/al, 4/1945/33
65 G3F .395 .010 OY, MOS/al, 4/1995/22
50 G3F .395 .010 OY, MOS/al, 5/1819/19 (patches holed)
65 G3F .395 .014 PT, MOS/al, 6/2042/22 (pink/white PT,no wiping)
75 G2F .395 .014 PT, MOS/al, 6/1966/40 (seated w/ patch wet with cleaning solution on jag, wiped bore on way back out, worked good)
A careful reader will find that some identical loads give different velocities. I do not know why that is, but I find it at times on different days.
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Thanks for posting your velocities, herb. Taylor and I are going to get out to the range this coming week for some BP ctg. revolver shooting so I think I'll have to do some more chrongraphing again as well. The 21" barreled .50 might be also very interesting. The 65gr. 3F and 75gr. 2F velocties I showed were for patches lubed with LehighValley lube. The 55gr. 2F loads were with spit. In the past, I found spit to shoot slower than oils or greases. If you get the chance, try 55gr. 2F in one of your .40's and see what it gets with a spit patch. Mine runs 1,795fps. I just remembered that with LHV and the light 55gr. load, the velocity was only 10fps higher for 1,805fps. My readings were virtually identical to Taylors Chrony, yet it showed very low velocities from his Virginia rifle - only 1,400fps+change with an 80gr. 2F load.
Herb, next time you do some speed testing, might I suggest your start at a given point, then raise charges in 10gr. intervals. I'll do the same. Too, if you are going to use a .020" patch, I think it should be a single piece of cloth, not something doubled. I don't trust doubled patching results. Taylor once tried doubling some patching, with very poor results. For .020" I use 10 pound denim. (I asume it's 10 pounds per bolt- whatever that is in length x 60")
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I only used the doubled .010 patches because I ran out of the .020 OxYoke, and that for only a couple of targets. I'll find some .020 patching and try the 55 Goex 2F with spit, which I only used for comparison. Did find some other 2F loads:
Dixie Lancaster, 44" barrel (pawn shop buy) flintlock:
80 Goex 2F .395 Hornady .012 PT, MOS/al, 9/2191/82
80 Goex 2F .395 Hornady .015 PT, MOS/al, 6/2178/55
ditto 6/2201/53
90 Goex 2F .395 Hornady .012 PT, MOS/al, 5/2303/42 (lower 10" of bore badly fouled, but no cleaning or wiping, some patches blew)
.40 Hawken Squirrel rifle I made with 36" Green River barrel, 1-48 twist
60 Goex 2F .390 cast .012 PT, MOS/al 6/1954/55
ditto 6/1920/25
There must be other readers with .40 chronograph data. Anybody got data on the loads we are discussing here?
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Maybe I missed the point here, but what are you trying to achieve? Not to be a broken record on loads, but it seems to me that some of your loads are excessive for a .40--and your accuracy results seem to support that. My old .40 [I gave it to my son] was a 38" barrelled Sweitzer copy with a no-name tapered barrel that consistently shot under 1" groups at 50 yds with 40 gr fffg, .395 ball and .015 patches with my bad 64 yr old eyes. I did not experiment much to find the most accurate load as 1" is good hunting accuracy for me and the old Lyman charts suggest enough MV&ME with a 40 gr load--plus it is economical. I do not have a chrony--I have no need for one. I seek accuracy not speed per se [obviously one wants to have enough velocity to get a reasonable trajectory and ME if a hunter]. Some of your .40 loads equal loads I use in my .50s & .54s. As my old pappy used to say, each to his own, but I am confused as to why you would want loads that scatter balls like some of your targets show?
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I agree with you Mike, I don't think I ever shot more than 55 grains of FFF out of my 40. I was always lookiing for the
most accurate load and had little concern for the muzzle velocity. I shoot 30 grains of FFF swiss out of my 36, and it
works great. The only reason I shoot swiss is that I have several cans of the stuff, and it shoots real clean...I just like
shooting with it.......Don
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What is a "Wigle" patch?
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Chronographs are interesting in that they do give the shooter an idea of what he is trying to achieve for some purposes. Are they necessary? Not really. About the best information they give is the comparison to published data. In some cases I found the loads hotter and in some not as hot. As to supercharging a small bore. There is a point where one should go bigger if more power is needed. The 40 seems to be very popular for target shooting now days. I built my first one in the late 1980's I think and it was the first 40 on the block. After shooting it a lot against other calibers and shooters, I bought a 45 barrel and decided for my personal needs the 45 would be better. Obviously Herb loves the 40, which is a personal choice and it suits his needs. I do not have any use for any loads much over 50 grains of 3f in mine and shoot far more lighter loads.
DP
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Daryl, it is my copy of an original Jacob Wigle rifle. I should have punctuated that title differently. Mike,I said above that I liked to shoot as little powder as would give the best groups. I have shot 40 grains of Goex 3F almost exclusively, but I tried these heavier charges because Daryl said they were the best he found in his rifles. I test them for accuracy and velocity, but will never shoot these heavy loads except in this testing. I hunt rabbits with my .40s, making head shots with 40 grains of powder, but would shoot even less if those loads were more accurate. So I test these just to see what they do, because I know what milder loads do. If you think they are excessive, the Lyman Black Powder Handbook (1st edition, they do not show .40 loads in the second) had maximum loads of 110 grains of C&H 3F powder with an .028 patch at 2333 fps. And 80 grains of G-O 3F, which may be more like present Goex 3F, at 2255 fps.
And some of those loads scattered, but I learned something in shooting them. Everyone believes there are accurate loads and if I knew what they were I'd go straight there and not have to experiment for them. But I showed everything from a day's shooting, not just the billfold groups. I also shoot .45, .50, .54 and .58 calibers, and it is a lot cheaper to experiment with .40's than those. I posted this thread separate from the other chronograph thread going now, and if anyone else has chronograph data and targets, I'd like to see them.
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Thanks for the explanation, Herb--by the way those are fine looking rifles you have made. What I meant by excessive was that for the caliber and considering the 'shot pattern' resulting from the heavier loads, the heavy charges seemed too high. I have the Lyman 1st Ed. and refer to it often [as I have no chrony] for intelligence about loads. What the charts do not tell is about accuracy as you know. What they do tell is that for hunting, one should match the caliber to the game rather than goosing up velocities of small bores to try to achieve energies of big ones [which as you said you were not trying to do]. I have read what is perhaps an old wives tale[?] that rifles tend to have two accuracy loads--one low and one high. I have not tested this. I have read that [likley rifling twist dependent] most rifles are more accurate with 'lighter' loads--especially loads that achieve 1400-1600 fps. Walter Cline did alot of testing and was of the opinion that 1400fps+/- was the best target load for most rifles. For hunting I try to achieve a higher velocity [at least 1600 fps] compatible with accuracy and downrange energy matched to the game sought. Typical loads for me are 24 gr fffg in my .32, 40 gr fffg in my .40, 50-65 gr fffg in my .45, 70-75 gr fffg in my .50, 85 gr ffg in my .54...etc. The target shooter who made my .50 uses 60 gr fffg in his identical rifle and wins competitions with it, but I went up a bit to achieve more energy for hunting. For small game I require small groups at the range, which trumps velocity any day.
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Food for thought. In looking at some of the targets above, the question is, when does a "group" become a "pattern",
I just had to ask that........Don
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Food for thought. In looking at some of the targets above, the question is, when does a "group" become a "pattern",
I just had to ask that........Don
I can answer that!!! In my case, at least, my group shot from a rest of near any kind, log, stix, bench dead steer, stump (without the hornets), staff changes to a pattern when I shoot offhand ;D ::)
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Mike, thanks for the replly. You sound smarter than your average bear on this subject. The top right target with 75 grains of Goex 2f had a torn patch flier at top, and different seating techniques, but look how close three are. This load is too hard to seat for fouling but now I know. I shot 35 grains of Goex 3F in my .45 Green River Leman I made in their shop, and won enought in contests to pay for the parts. I doubled that to 70 grains for 100 yard targets. My .50's, I'd have to look. My friend George Jackson won the Utah state flintlock championship two years using 90 grains of Goex 2F. I usually use 80 grains of Goex 3F in my .54's.
Lyman's second edition book doesn't have .40 caliber, but they show 70 grains max of Goex 2F and 3F for .32 and .36 calibers. For .45, their max (as for almost all other calibers and bullets) is 120 grains of Goex 2F and Goex 3F. 2024 and 2125 fps. They gave 19,300 and 18,700 psi pressure (yes, the 3F was less). If you think that is hot, they show a lot of conical loads in .45 to 28 and 29,000, one up to 31,500 psi.
Don, I'd call them groups with fliers. Now, shooting a ball and its seating jag through my second target made a flier. Otherwise, there are six shots in 1 3/4". Not a good group, but there it is. Most of these are six or seven shot groups, usually about 1 1/2" for five. Each target is a different patch thickness or 3F or 2F or a different rifle. Each target also has two or three shots cutting, or pairs within a half inch. The trick is to shoot one fat hole, but I don't usually do that.
If you can sit at a bench and test a series like this and have all bragging groups with no alibis, lets see them. Years ago don't count, lets see it today. (I just had to say that, the devil made me do it!)
The Vincent rifle with a newly cleaned bore shot the .400 ball with .020 OxYoke patch and 40 GRAINS of 3f inito a pattern, 4.25". Continuing immediately without wiping or cleaning, changing only to .010 OxYoke patch, the next group was 1.00 inch and the velocity 222 fps higher. (don't remember why only three shots, I think I ran out of balls). Did the higher velocity make better accuracy? I don't know. Did the .020 patch make lower velocity (yes, it seems to, but not that much), and which caused the bad accuracy, the .020 patch or lower velocity? And did you know this kind of stuff could happen before I tested it?
My patterns may be because I cannot precvisely and consistently aim with these open sights, or even the Oldham peep. I never call a shot as badly held (well, almost never), but maybe the patterns are my seeing the sights on the target as much as the load. But I don't think so. Maybe I should fit a scope for a testing series and eliminate that one "X" factor.
I do appreciate all the comments, maybe we'll have some fun here and even learn from each other. Pitch in.
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I appreciate Herb's honesty in posting the groups as they happened. I've shot enough to know whenever I am testing, - - it happens and you want to pitch that group and start over - I've seen that varmint more thena few times. There are groups shown that show promise and they have flyers, yes, - - it happens. The grouping that shows promise, those with 3 to 4 tightly clustered holes, need re-testing. Once there are 4 or 5 targets shot with the same load, there is some meaning to the results - little from a single target. Perhaps I'll get out this week - maybe today, for some testing of my own. yesterday was fun at the range, but we didn't have time for rifle shooting - testing BP loads in our wheelguns and some cool grouse loads in Taylor's Guide Gun.
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groups vs patterns...I was once a competition small bore shooter [college team]. I had 18 yr old eyes when I joined that team 46 yrs ago! My eyes were at least 20/15 then. If you couldn't shoot dead center every time you couldn't compete very well. I got used to one hole groups. Now I cannot see the open sights on my longrifles. A couple of weeks ago I went out one hot humid morning to test a new powder in my .54 with a 44" Rice barrel. The light was bad, my eyes were blurry, my glasses kept fogging up--in short I was guessing about where my sights were. Two shots actually missed the 8x11 paper at 50 yds. I did get a 5 shot 2" group with a couple of other flyers that did hit the paper. But I gave it up as a bad day to shoot--when I got home I investigated my rear sight with a lens and found out that the darn thing had hardly any notch in it! No wonder, given the conditions, I shot badly. I could not see the front sight because of the poor notch and because of my old eyes and because of the humidity....lots of excuses, but I fixed the notch and JUST WAIT UNTIL NEXT TIME! Most of us search for the one-hole group, and I am usually happy with 1" or so at 50yds [open sights; or 1" at 100 yds with a scoped rifle]. I own two .22s that will group 0.5" at 50 yds. I was spoiled when the first MLer I bought could do 1" at 100 yds with a tang peep sight[.36 Numerich barrel] and the first one I made shot under 1" at 50 yds with primitive open sights[.45 Green River barrel]. Now my groups are closer to patterns because of my eyes more than anything else...I am pleased with 2" groups these days....
P.S. I forgot to mention the mosquitos were killing me too...
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Mike - is it any wonder are the eyes fail us many shooters getting a mite long in the tooth, go to smoothbores where a long shot is 50 yards, yet we can still hold 1" at 25?
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Nice post, Mike. I am getting ready to test Goex 3f against 2F in my .54 Green River Hawken I built, 80 to 120 grains, because Lymans's second edition shows velocities and pressures different from what one expects. But I want to test for the accuracy as well, so today I began fitting a 4X scope to my Green River, to be clamped onto a wooden base with drier duct clamps or some such.
I'd like someone to test the .40 caliber with loads from 20 to 40 grains of Goex 3F, one ball size and one patch thickness. I'd really like to have some very mild loads for the blanket shoots. I have shot 50 grains of Goex 3F in my .54 and .58 Hawkens in these shoots. I am not a good offhand shot with a flintlock.
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Herb,
The original owner of my Tenn. Mtn. rifle shot 40grs.of 3f Goex in it. When I bought it last October,I didn't have 3f so I substituted 50grs. of 2f Goex. This little 40 loves it.Shoots all day with it and asks for more. I use a .395 RB,a 22 thou denim patch lubed with LHV or spit. The barrel is a Rice with square grooves,48 inch twist and is 38 inches long. She loads real easy and is very accurate.No wiping.The lock is a Late Ketland and is very fast. I will chrony it soon but really don't feel the need to.
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Thanks, Leatherbelly. I like those late Ketland locks.
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I only tested 2f in my 54 and 12 gauge but noticed less of a total velocity spread with the 2f. It may be that the lower pressures have something to do with it. Lyman used 3f in their testing because they claimed it shot cleaner and was more economical. Their pressure tests on a 54 had 80 grains of 3f at 8400 LUP and 80 grains of 2f at 6400 LUP. The 120 grain load of 2f I used gave 8100 LUP in their barrel and the 90 grain is not listed but 3f jumps from 8400 LUP with 3f at 80 grns to 13100 CUP with 100 grns. Maybe there is a jump in a 40 similar. Really Daryl's 60-65 2f loads are not all that different in velocity to 45-50 grain 3f loads. As to grouping vs patterning, I used to do fairly well with tight patches and a variety of loads.Generally the 40 I used shot pretty tight with about 40 grains. If the sights were on target and I followed through I hit it. Unfortunately I also used to sight in offhand as I shot offhand and benches can do funny things to offhand sight in. I am willing to bet that if a 54 could group 4 inches at 100 yards you could get a lot of game with that load, maybe not field mice but most big game.
DP
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Herb.....the last time I shot at the Alvin York shoot I shot a "pattern", that's when I quit. I may have to join Leatherbelly
and start to shoot my smoothbore, at least then I have an excuse.....Don
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We used to think that's why LB shot a smoothie, until he got the .40 flinter - now all bets are off! He shoots @!*% well with both. It's getting to be a chore to beat him now. Wish he'd go back to the smoothie. There are a couple guys at hefley who shoot nothing but smoothbores. They are goooooood! I saw the scores on a number of the events where the smoothbore shooters 1st and second place were higher than the rifle shooters. Now, if we can only get the Hunter men to shoot smoothbores, us mere mortals would have a better chance with the rifle events. It was nice to see this forum's Neil Hunter winning some events where-as Mark - his son only came in second. Only? They are darn difficult to get off-target. mark shoots a flinter almost as well as his capgun, so a change in ignition for him isn't the only answer. maybe a new perscription for my glasses? Maybe some more practise? maybe both?
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I read a lot of us with the eyesight changes are having troubles. Many talk about smoothbores where I assume you aim with the front sight only. Being of the experimental nature Daryl should be able to solve the no see rear sights. I think he was on the right track when he showed us the British Express sight. Ever wonder what would happen it we really opened up those rear sights. Slit them deeper and waaay wider. Or even developed more groan peep sights. Maybe painted or inlayed or soldered on silver triangles into the bases to line up the front with the rear. I was considering making a sort of English styled hunting rifle for myself with a peepsight design kind of like a shotgun I am finishing now which is just for me and deer hunting. Something that "could have been made" not a re-creation. I take my hat off to Don for his "barn guns" as that sort of thing.
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I did some chrono and ccuracy testing today. I found something VERY interesting regarding the powder. both the 3F and 2F that we bought at Hefley are VERY much slower that the previous lots of powder I've used. there was a drastic drop in velocity even well below Herb's tests.
: I haven't complied my data yet, so it may be a while. I did test going to a thinner patch from what I normally use - a full .007" thinner and received a drop in velocity of almsot 100fps average. This is as I guessed would happen. I didn't have anything thinner than .013", so that's what I used after the .020". As I was using a .400" ball, I assume the .013' patch sealed fairly well as the bore didn't foul up, but I was unable to find any amongst the 'herd' of patches out there. I should have been picking them up each 5 or 10 shots, but didn't. The test with the thin patch was an afterthought. I'm guessing, but I think I shot off about 130 rounds in 5 1/2 hours - No wiping needed.
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Here are some of the velocities I recorded with the new slow powder in 3F and 2F .40 cal. 42" Goodioen barrel, .398" bore, .420" groove diameter - 1st 5 shots each 10 shot string shown:
: 50gr. 2F spit patch .021" denim .395" ball
1/. 1,509
2/. 1,500
3/. 1,514
4/. 1,513
5/. 1,505 - 1,508 Av. ES - 14 - ES over 10 shots - 19
: 60gr. 2F same combination as above
1/. 1,687
2/. 1,670
3/. 1,662
4/. 1,678
5/. 1,668 - 1,673 Av. ES - 25 - ES over 10 shots - 32
:75gr. 2F same combination
1/. 1,890
2/. 1,885
3/. 1,912
4/. 1,886
5/. 1,915 - 1,897 Av. ES - 30 - ES over 10 shots 39
40gr. 3F - .400" ball .020" denim LHV
1/. 1,389
2/. 1,402
3/. 1,374
4/. 1,441
5/. 1,438 - 1,408 Av. ES - 67 - ES over 10 shots - 81
50gr. 3F - same combination and lube
1/. 1,683
2/. 1,653
3/. 1,668
4/. 1,704
5/. 1,683 - 1,678 Av. ES - 51 - ES over 10 shots - 67
60gr. 3F - same combination and lube
1., 1,821
2/. 1,830
3/. 1,815
4/. 1,834
5/. 1,830 - 1,826 Av. ES - 15 - ES over 10 shots - 22
65gr. 3F .400" ball with .013" denim patch - LHV
1/. 1,711
2/. 1,691
3/. 1,672
4/. 1,651
5/. 1,722 - 1,689 Av. ES - 71 - ES over 10 shots 96 - Accuracy poor - no patches found although loading was little different than with heavy patch.
: There was no cleaning nor wiping of any type during any of the shooting nor between powder changes. At no time did the loading effort seem to change nor did it get difficult at any time. Loading each time felt identical to the first shot loaded, except the .395" ball and .021" patch was, of course, easier to start and slightly easier to push down the tube. I shot the 3F loads first in the .40, then played with the .50 Canoe Gun w/21" barrel for a while, then the 2F loads in the .40. No patches found, showed any holes nor burning.
I was very much disappointed in the velocities recorded. Previous velocity testing was duplicated on at least 2 previous occasions with the 'other' powder - obviously a different lot than this 'newer' slower powder.
With 75gr. of 2F, this testing's velocties are 263 fps lower. The 60gr. 2F charge today shows speeds roughly 177fps low of previously recorded velocities. I was pleased that my duplicate run of 10 shots using 60gr. 2F showed it has promise as being an accuracy load. I am not satisfied with any of the 3F loads tested.
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Again you had results similar to what I have seen in that 2f had a smaller extreme spread than 3f (except for the 60 grain 3f load) . The 2f extreme spreads are about 1/2 that of 3f. Compared to modern smokeless loads most of them are really quite acceptable. I am going to try 2f in my 40 just for kicks. I decided to stay with my 2f load in my 54 for the same reason. Were you less experienced I would ask about any changes in the gun such as vent enlargement. However I did not get a real large difference in my tests from .0625 to .070, I would think the burn out would have to be very severe for those differences. Try "socking" the powder like one individual suggested to get rid of the fines. About the time we think we have it licked they change things on us.
DP
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Both the new 3F and 2F seem to be very nice looking powders, just slow on the speeds. I do recall the other stuff I had, at least the 3F powder that gave high speeds, was considerably dustier. The 2F seemed about the same, but was fast as well - perhaps less shiny, though.
Right now, I don't have a really good load with 3F- except for perhaps 50gr. 3F which may shoot and of course, the 60gr. 2F that wants to put the first 4 to 6 into a small hole. They are both close to the same POI at 50 yards, just a tich above the sights. They'll be about spot-on at 25 and perhaps only an inch low at 75. Unfortunately, I ruin most 10 shot groups due to heat waves. What starts to be a lovely group, transends into a pattern out to 2" or so. both the 50gr. 3F and 60gr. of 2F wanted to shoot a single hole for the first bunch of shots. Should have quit after 5.
As far as modern stuff with full powdered hunting loads, anything closer that 50fps is very good. Inside 25 has match potential - I'm talking 300 meter match. This is, of course, if those low ES loads shoot well - doesn't always happen that way, either.