AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Bob Smalser on November 27, 2010, 06:29:15 PM

Title: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on November 27, 2010, 06:29:15 PM

I'm tying down more detail from recent archive collections on Allentown gunmakers, but don't have all the reference books on rifles y'all do.

In gunmaking references I keep reading about "John Rupp I" and "John Rupp II", but can't match them up with actual people contained in other archives, and KRA.org doesn't identify two John Rupps either:

http://kentuckyrifleassociation.org/findmaker.asp?choose=byschool&school=13

I have Herman Rupp (1756-1831), and his father, Alsace immigrant John George Rupp (1721-1807)….plus the Alsace line of Rupps that extends three generations back from Alsace to Switzerland  And in the next generation I think I also have John Rupp II (1789-1848), Herman's nephew.  (John Rupp II’s birth year is also found as 1786.)

Who I can’t differentiate is the John Rupp collectors refer to as “John Rupp I”.  Besides Herman's father, the candidates are all Herman’s brothers, as Herman didn’t have any uncles according to my sources:

John George Jr (1758-1909)
Johannes (1760-1826)
Johannes (1762-1840)

Or in the next generation:
John Rupp (1798-1835) - John B1762's son



Can anyone help?

And from other family researchers proofing the Newhard monograph, I’ve also acquired additional Newhard-Kuntz relationships.  More input is always welcome.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic20.picturetrail.com%2FVOL12%2F1104763%2F23549184%2F393653280.jpg&hash=57c213724841e9482e48d4f1dc210c2aec558d79)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic20.picturetrail.com%2FVOL12%2F1104763%2F23549184%2F393517019.jpg&hash=f80637f86af39821f0e47a346a543579d76d69e8)

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Ky-Flinter on November 27, 2010, 08:23:00 PM

Bob,

I looked thru my books and was hoping for better results.  Here is what I found.

Kindig lists one rifle by "John Rupp" in Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle (#62).  On page 175, Kindig states, "As of yet we have found no written record of John Rupp."  He also cautions that Rupp should not be confused with "J. Roop", "whose work is considerably later and much inferior."  Kindig also states his belief of a close association between the Molls and Rupp, "although Rupp worked much earlier than most of the Molls."  On page 180 Kindig says he believes John Moll apprenticed with Rupp.

RCA Vol. 1 shows a smoothbore signed "Herman Rupp 1793" (#57) on page 242.  No mention of John Rupp.

In The Pennsylvannia-Kentucky Rifle by Kauffman, plate 44 (page 51) shows a rifle Marked "J. Rupp", but no other info.

Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850 shows a rifle signed "John Rupp" (page 16) and a smoothbore signed "J.R." on the wrist piece and attributed to John Rupp (page 17).  On page 22-23 is a smoothbore attributed to Herman "or the elder John Rupp", but there's no other info on the "elder".

-Ron

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Fleisher on November 27, 2010, 10:42:48 PM

According to Ron Gable's research presented in 1982, Adam Herman Rupp had a brother John who was believed to be a gunsmith. This John Rupp, the elder was listed as a smid in the tax record starting in 1789. He died in 1836.  A. Herman had another brother named Andrew.  Andrew Rupp had a son John born in 1786 and died in 1848. John Rupp, the younger made guns from 1812 to 1848.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on November 27, 2010, 10:58:06 PM

Thanks Ron and Eric.

What I was going on is this Dixon's display from 2009, which tracks with Mr Gabel's paper stating John Rupp I was Adam Herman's brother:

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic20.picturetrail.com%2FVOL12%2F1104763%2F23549184%2F393668321.jpg&hash=ff2931c3945661bc6c155d6b4e38acde8b1840a9)

Except that birth and family records show that Adam Herman had two brothers named John....

....Johannes George Rupp Jr (1758-1809), who was born in Macungie and died in Scull Hill, and...

.... Johannes Rupp (1762-1840), who was born in Macungie Twp but married a York
Pennsylvania girl and moved there around 1789.

Mr Kettenburg’s monograph on Lehigh Valley rifles says that Adam Herman Rupp’s (1756-1831) work is sufficiently close to John Moll I’s (1746-1794) that there is little doubt of a senior-subordinate relationship.  That tracks nicely with what I have, as dates, events and distances all fit, plus the Moll shop then was the largest (save perhaps the Moravians) with the greatest demand for labor.  There are more artifacts remaining, Moll was chosen for wartime weapons contracts, plus Moll wasn’t also trying to farm 345 acres like Peter Newhard (1746-1813) was.

Without fleshing out the Rupps further...and both John Rupps appear to be too young...from the family point of view William Moll (1712-1780) is the most likely candidate for the gunmaking patriarch.  The Moravians (Andreas Albrecht 1718-1802) needed cash more than labor, and later ran pay schools specifically for that purpose…and in the mid-1750’s neither the Newhard nor Moll families had much cash.  There is no doubt William Moll was a gunmaker (Who else would leave a rifling machine to his descendants?), and he likely doesn’t appear on tax rolls because like many, he left his Berks County origins to squat on vacant land further out on the frontier until he had accumulated sufficient resources to buy it.  The Molls don’t officially appear until 1764 in Allentown, but they easily could have been in the area as early as 1750, and William Moll could have taught his son John and Peter Newhard together....which tracks with other's  observations that Moll's and Newhard's work were closer to each other than either were to the Moravian's.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on November 28, 2010, 03:42:23 AM

Family member Ralph Spears provided a document that along with other nuggets, states Johannes Rupp (1762-1840) of York County was a blacksmith there.  That leaves John George Rupp Jr as the most likely candidate for "John Rupp I".

It needs a relook of York and Macungie tax rolls and later business directories, but it's a strawman to start with.  The "smid" referred to in 1789 tax rolls could also be the John Moll who moved to York.  Gunsmith usually contains the word "Buechsen" in it somewhere.  For my purpose, it's clear that there isn't a "John Rupp" sufficiently old to be the teacher of Peter Newhard or John Moll.

Thanks again for helping narrow this down.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic20.picturetrail.com%2FVOL12%2F1104763%2F23549184%2F393673911.jpg&hash=ab435bdabbdead0869a53028f37a208246eb82fe)

Common Regional Origins
1)  Sensinger Family: Rosenwiller, Alsace
2)  Newhard Family: Rumbach, Palatinate (Note 2)
3)  Kuntz Family:  Niederbronn, Alsace
4)  Schmalzhaf (author’s) Family:  Bonfeld, Kraichgau
5)  Moll Family:  Weisenheim am Sand, Palatinate
6)  Rupp Family:  Wimmerau, Alsace

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on November 29, 2010, 03:29:49 AM

Where is there documentation of Johannes Moll being involved in wartime contracts?  I have yet to find it.  Lots of speculation, but no actual documentation.  Don;t get me wrong, I'm sure he was involved w/ the Allentown "factory," but too many authors for too many years have taken gross liberty with speculation and presented it as fact.  Speculation if fine, provided it is recognized as speculation.  The only documentation of Moll during the War indicates he was doing what he needed to do to survive, and it wasn't making guns after Allentown dried up.

I think we tend to glamorize what some of these guys were doing, and NH county in particular must have been a b***h of a place to make a living as a gunsmith.

Didn't one of the John Rupps supposedly fall into the Susquehanna and drown?  The Kindig rifle is an interesting lumpy beast of a rifle, and frankly (don;t mean to insult anyone including it's present owner) but I could easily see it as a restocked signed barrel.

For those of us who obsess upon the Northampton area work, it is very sad to see many of the "missing links" (rifles) which could clarify some of the connections and go a long way toward illustrating the regional stylistic development remain unpublished, especially here in 2010 when it seems ridiculous to do so.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on November 29, 2010, 06:31:15 AM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on November 29, 2010, 03:29:49 AM

1)   Lots of speculation, but no actual documentation....

2)  …The only documentation of Moll during the War indicates he was doing what he needed to do to survive, and it wasn't making guns after Allentown dried up.

3)  ….I think we tend to glamorize what some of these guys were doing, and NH county in particular must have been a b***h of a place to make a living as a gunsmith.

4)  …Didn't one of the John Rupps supposedly fall into the Susquehanna and drown? 

1)  What is it then are you doing when you state that Herman Rupp's work was so close to John Moll's that Rupp must have apprenticed under Moll?  You don't have a recorded apprenticeship contract to look at because they were rarely recorded at a courthouse.  Or define to someone not particularly interested in collecting exactly what this whole "attribution" business is all about, if not reasoned deduction?  Like Brent Wade Moll (below), my target audience is family members and their descendants, not your community, and logical deductions clearly reasoned and sourced are a far cry from wild speculation.   But you are correct….I should add a note differentiating deduction from fact on the “Allentown Factory”, and where Moll and Newhard would have (likely) spent their militia drill and active-duty days, and where they would have (likely) taken weapons requiring major repair.  Even without an armory locally, it would be a foolish company commander indeed to have Moll and Newhard performing bayonet drill when he also had 150 finicky flintlocks of various makes, vintages and conditions to bet his men's lives on, not to mention all the government-owned gear.

2)  Below I’ve scanned page 54 (of 300 pages) from Dennis Kastens’ Neuhart Chronicles Vol IV to demonstrate the level of (sourced) detail available on selected Newhards and their Moll and Kuntz in-laws (also Hess and Henry among others).  It’s been in print since 1988, and why the collecting  community apparently hasn’t used it escapes me.  Otherwise there wouldn’t be recent errors in deduction that “three Newhard brothers immigrated” when there were four and they weren’t brothers…that Moll I was an immigrant when he wasn’t…or was older than Newhard when he wasn’t.  Further, those who haven’t studied the (recent) works of Aaron Spencer Fogelman and David Hackett Fischer may be missing important context and perspective to make sound cultural deductions about early Pennsylvania Germans. Hence the questionable deduction that Native American decoration on selected rifles were whimsical when only a decade before a 23-year reign of Indian terror ended that had resulted in thousands of civilian casualties and refugees.  There is also Brent Wade Moll’s research found here, that provides rich detail on the “12,000 stands of arms” at Allentown under CPT Styles, Lt Hagner and 16 armorers, of which Moll was one:
http://www.angelfire.com/pa5/mollpa/


3)  Few if any except John Moll I and his descendants were attempting to make their living exclusively from gunmaking.  His contemporary Peter Newhard farmed properties that would grow to 345 acres, and gunmaking was a sideline used as a source of cash, the scarcest of all commodities to subsistence farmers, which is the principle reason William Moll is a better candidate for gunmaking patriarch than Andreas Albrecht, without even looking at rifles (see previous comments).  Same with the Kuntz and Rupp families….all farmers with 125 acres or more.

4)  Peter Moll II, age 35, drowned in 1883 at the Portland PA site on the Delaware River where he was establishing a washboard manufactory….probably in the mill pond.  He left his 29-year-old wife Amelia with four children ages 11, 9, 5 and 4. (Kastens Vol IV p.57) Oerter, David Kuntz, and John George Rupp also died early, but from illness.

Quote

Kastens, Page 54:

ELIZABETH NEUHART (Ref. Vol. II, p. 41)

* Aug. 27, 1771, near Allentown, Pa.

+ June 1, 1842, Hellertown, Pa.

Married: c. 1795

JOHN MOLL II

* May 13, 1773, Allentown, Pa. + c. 1834. Hellertown, Pa.

Her father: Lorentz Neuhart/Neuhardt * 1740, + Aug. I, 1817

Her mother: Maria Magdalena Schneider * c. 1746, + Nov. 1, 1815

His father: John Moll I

* c. 1747, + Nov. 1794

His mother: Lydia Rincker (Rinker)

Children: (All baptized Zion Reformed, Allentown, Pa.)

1. John Moll. III * Nov. 13, bp. Dec. 11, 1796 (sp. Abraham Rincker and (wife) Gertrude ••. the mother's brother, a captain in the Revolution, and the War of 1812). He + Aug. 29, 1883 Allentown. Married Apr. 20, 1824 Elizabeth Ueberroth of Allentown (newspaper) * + Apr. 10, 1897.

2. Peter Moll * Oct. 13, bp. Nov. 10, 1799 (sp. Peter Moll and A. Marie Neuhardt) + June 8, 1879 at Hellertown. Married Mary Shafer * Aug. 24, 1806, + May 21, 1888.

3. Catharine Moll * May 27, bp. June 10, 1805 (sp. Christian Neuhardt and (wife) Elizabeth.)

4. David Moll * Apr. 22, bp. May 24, 1807 (sp. Daniel Neuhardt and Margaret Fuchs), + Aug. 31, 1853 at Hellertown. Married Dec. 6, 1835 Elizabeth Weber, both of Hellertown (newspaper). She * Jan. 3, 1810, + May 25, 1859. .

5. Mary Magdalena Moll * Mar. 13, bp, Apr" 22, 1810 (sp. David Neuhardt and Mary Magdalena Horn).

6. Nathan Moll * July 2, bp. Aug. 7, 1814 (sp. Peter Franz and (wife) Catharine). + _

Married Feb. 24, 1838 Rosina Lie at Hellertown (newspaper). Became a gunsmith and moved westward (about 1860?).

The three John Molls were all noted gunsmiths of Allentown. John (I) is first noticed in the tax list for 1772 recorded as a single man. (A John Moll appeared on the 1764 list--but that a different individual and married, or had been.) He married April 28, 1772 Lydia Rincker (Rinker) by Abraham Blumer. As "John Moll gunsmith" he secured a lot in' Allentown, 60' x 230', from Melchior Tanner and wife Barbara, consideration t 45.00. Deed Book El, p. 649 at Easton, Pa,

This property remained in the Moll family until sold Jan. 31, 1884, at which time it was identified as 129 N. Seventh Street (but now a parking lot). He also secured improvement rights to the adjoining lot of the same size, which he fenced in and built a stable in which he kept a cow but no horse. He was enrolled as a private in the Allentown Militia Company during the Revolution. Pa, Archives, 5th Series, Vol. 8, pp. 85,230,336. He served one tour of duty in the United States service as a substitute for Mich. Cline for 22 days beginning Aug. 9, 1781. Ibid. p. 322. He was occupied in the military gun repair shops established in Allentown where huge quantities of guns and related equipment were brought in, processed, and shipped out. After the war, he returned to making rifles, reputedly of very high quality though not many known examples survived to the 20th century.

John and Lydia had two other children, also baptized Zion Reformed, Allentown: #2 was John Jacob Moll * Mar. 1, 1776, + before 1790 census; #3 Peter Moll * Nov. 26, 1779 (who served in the War of 1812, came home and became a rich man). The parents were buried in the "Old" Allentown Cemetery, but without surviving gravestones. However, the Liberty Bell Chapter, D.A.R. placed a large
bronze plaque at the 10th and Turner Street corner of the cemetery commemorating the Revolutionary soldiers interred therein. It includes one John Moll with his life span. He died intestate with wife and son, John, becoming the administrators. His inventory, including a wide assortment of gunsmithing tools and supplies, was appraised at t 394.15.9 on Jan. 31, 1795. On Aug. 11, 1796,
son John petitioned the Orphans Court at Easton for partition of his father's real estate, stating that it consisted of the Allentown lot and adjoining improvement (previously described). It was adjudged to this son at valuation t 255.8.4. Register's File #1702; Orphan's Court Docket 6, pp. 44 49, both at Easton. This property described in the 1798 U. S. Direct Tax as consisting of 50 perches (= 50/160 acre) of land, a two story log house 31' x 22', a stable and 2 other outbuildings.

John Moll continued the Allentown gunsmith business, but seems to have gone into semi-retirement about 1820 when he sold some tools, equipment and supplies to his son, John I II, now age 24. While not recorded, we know this son came into possession of the real estate, probably about the time of his marriage in 1824, with his parents and siblings departing for Hellertown about the same time.

The 1820 census shows parents and all 6 children living in Allentown, and the 1830 census has parents and 5 children living in Hellertown. His other sons, Peter, David and Nathan also became gunsmiths as we shall see, so it is probable the father continued active with them until the early 1830's. There was no probate for John Moll II, as he had made all arrangements in his 1ife time.

He was known to have been successful in his trade, and in addition his wife was an equal heir in the large estate of her father, Lorentz Neuhardt. Moll was an executor and rendered his final account on Jan. 6, 1823. We can be sure his widow was well provided for and that his children were given a meaningful inheritance. This couple were faithful members of Allentown Zion Reformed congregation while residing there. John appears in records of the Lower Saucon Reformed as attending preparatory communion service Apr. 1827, Apr. 1830 and N6v. 1831. John & Elizabeth may have been buried in the adjoining cemetery but gravestones did not survive to the 20th century (there or elsewhere in the township)…..

 http://www.kastensinc.com/neuhart/

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: JTR on November 29, 2010, 04:58:25 PM

 [/quote] My target audience is family members and their descendants, not your community,[/quote]

Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

John

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on November 29, 2010, 05:32:21 PM

Kastens' work assuredly is the defining work in print on the subject - I used it quite copiously when researching the Neihart family on a preliminary level.  My interest is different from your own however - as I am not a descendent - in that I was not terribly concerned with who begat who etc.  :D unless it happened to tie into gunmaking in the Allentown area.  I do take issue with Kastens' note concerning the earlier 1760s Allentown Moll being a different John Moll based upon marital implications in the tax documents; these early tax lists have been heavily edited upon reprinting over the years - the 19th century authors being particularly guilty of this - however the original microfilmed documents make no such marital assertions.  Could it have been a different John?  Sure - we weren't there!  But I have yet to see any reason to believe it wasn't the same John.

It's been a few years now since I corresponded with Brent Moll.  He does have some excellent information, especially of a familial nature, but his references to John Moll being one of the 16 armorers ties back to the old William Heller article which is only cursorily documented if at all and does not allow one to follow the chain of information back to a first-hand source.  As of the time that I type this, to my knowledge, there is no surviving list or payroll of the men working at the Allentown factory other than that Cowell and Tyler were in positions of authority.  I did find an obscure reference to one single individual, a man named John Butler, but that was all.  Going by the documentation which has survived (I've referenced everything on my site somewhere, usually within the body of the particular article segment), it seems that Cowell and Tyler brought workmen along with them from Philadelphia when they were sent to establish the factory at Allentown.  I feel sure that they hired "locals" as well, but as yet there is no *documented* reference to this so as silly as it seems I have to consider that in a speculative sense.  Most any time one finds a textual reference to the Allentown factory and the "16 men" that worked there, it almost always ties back to either the few references in the PA archives (and I tried to document all of them, including a few which I had not seen referenced previously) or, once again, to the old Heller article.  Neither source provides a list of individuals involved, so the approach I took was to scour the surviving tax lists and land records; it's a start, anyway, albeit nothing provable.  When I initially began delving into the NH county area, as witnessed by the old article which now is floating about the internet which you have noted, I was quite guilty of speculation without specifically pointing out that it was indeed speculation.  I would like to think that my more recent work which I've published (site) has progressed beyond that to a more scholarly level - at the least, that is what I have worked toward - and that I have tried to effectively reference everything that can be documented.

My current approach when coming across a statement is to "follow the chain" backwards to the source.  Unfortunately, when it comes to much of what has been printed regarding NH County, the source often is something along the lines of Heller's article or others like it, or the 19th century histories, and these are essentially dead ends because their few references typically do not lead anywhere and/or contradict the first-hand tax, land or church information which still exists.  While I'd love to accept some of it at face value, I have a terribly hard time doing so.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on November 29, 2010, 05:44:30 PM

I just double-checked Heller's article:  "The Gunmakers of Old Northampton," by William J. Heller, originally published in Volume XVII of the newsletter of the Pennsylvania German Society.  The article is dated November 2, 1906, not the 1920s as I was trying to remember.  This article is the source of practically all modern assertions that Moll and Neihart worked at the Allentown factory.  However, Heller does not note a single source.  If he had access to one, I can't imagine where it could be because as of the current time it has not been found within any surviving records archived from NH County.  This type of article was very common to the 19th/early 20th century:  how does one verify such information if neither county, state, church records or otherwise do not support it?

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on November 29, 2010, 11:12:37 PM

Quote from: JTR on November 29, 2010, 04:58:25 PM

Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

All that means is I want human interest readable by laymen…incorporating faces and names to otherwise dry archives…it doesn’t mean I’m willing to take flights of fancy with facts.  But “who begat who” tells us that the Rupps arrived with relative wealth, the Newhards with less, and the Molls with probably none at all, which is extremely important to deduce their behavior in the absence of formal records.  And like my other articles on how their more recent tradesmen forbearers made their living primarily with hand tools (shipwrights and boatbuilders), publishing this in your venue provides me the advantage of excellent, expert commentary so I can tweak these pieces to improve both accuracy and clarity.

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on November 29, 2010, 05:32:21 PM

…I do take issue with Kastens' note concerning the earlier 1760s

Me too….but Kasten’s 1988 work didn’t have the advantage of incorporating Fogelman’s 1996 work on the paths to land ownership under the Penns, and the details of Quaker-Penn-Settler political conflicts:

That John Moll I had as much or more gun work as he could handle from 1776 to 1781 remains a logical deduction.

1)  He had one of the few full-time gunmaking shops dating from 1764, and the fact that it still existed in 1776 meant that it was making ends meet or better.  Moll probably had two or more apprentices and workmen, one of whom as you have deduced from surviving artifacts may have been 20-year-old Herman Rupp.  Real military threats and Indian terror dated from 1755, and prewar militia provided their own firelocks as the Quaker hierarchy safe in Philadelphia were reluctant to encourage or fund frontier militias.  

2)  In a previous life I had some experience with prepositioned armory stocks and can quote manpower space requirements for modern weapons.  If I were dealing with farmer-owned flintlocks of mixed vintage, make and condition…and later lowest-bidder acquisitions of mixed make and quality instead of interchangeable-part M16-types, I’d probably at least triple those requirements.  Moreover, “800 muskets on hand” and “12,000 stands of arms” aren’t unimpressive quantities when Allentown had a mere 50 buildings and 300 inhabitants (two-thirds of them children), even to a guy who used to build brigade-sized equipment sets….regardless of how many workers were imported from Philadelphia or joiners recruited locally.

3)  The Molls were poor then, and needed the work.  While John’s father William died possessing more than he owed in 1780, that fact doesn’t mean much.  He and his son owned no land except the one lot with their shop in Allentown, and the adjacent lot with barn they leased.  They owned a cow to feed John’s three young sons born between 1773 and 1779, but didn’t even own a horse for transportation.  And with only the cow and his wife’s kitchen garden, John needed (then-scarce) cash for even the basics of family support.

4)  William and John’s pre-1764 arrival in Allentown coincides nicely with the Penn’s campaign to evict squatters from vacant lands.  Thomas Penn had closed his mortgage office in 1755, demanding cash yet refusing paper money, which drove many second-generation Pennsylvanians whose families had originally homesteaded closer in to Philadelphia to squat on land further out on the frontier.  By the late 1750’s Penn increased evictions but came to realize his high land prices and strict policies were the cause of the decline in his revenues.  In 1765 he reversed those policies, but by then William and John Moll had already committed themselves to a shop in Allentown.  I strongly suspect why so little is recorded on gunmaker (Who else but a gunmaker would leave a rifling machine marked “WM 1747” to his descendents?) William Moll was by Moll’s own design.  He was probably a squatter.

Last, I also support your assessments of Allentown joiner Jacob Neuhardt also making guns and the unlikelihood of any formal relationships between the Molls or Newhards and the Moravians.  I would only add the cash equation to your rationale.  The Moravian “pay schools” open to non-Moravians weren’t formally established until 1783, and if they did make earlier exceptions they would want cash for them, something neither the Newhards or the Molls had in the late 1750’s.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on November 30, 2010, 12:05:01 AM

I doubt John Moll was a gunsmith in 1764 - the earliest accounts of Allentown mention there being no arms fit for use in the town or possibly the entire township, certainly understandable given the complete lack of $$$ in the local population.  The first reference to him as a gunsmith was the 1773 assessment.  Earlier assessments (not all) do note some trades, but he was not noted as such until 1773, so either he was not a smith or because he was unmarried his trade was not noted.  There were smiths noted in Allentown early on - Froelich and Leidecker - but nothing noting a trade for Moll. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the William Moll issue.  I have yet to see anyone produce an actual document proving the man even existed - yes, there are printed references to him throughout the 19th/20th century, but when tracing them backwards, nobody seems to be able to point to the location of an original document, even the 1780 probate inventory which is referenced.  It seems to have vanished if it ever existed - I know I for one would love to see it (seriously).  I sincerely doubt the validity of the rifling machine.  I'm sure it's an old rifling machine, but it was very common in the 19th century during the early "roots movement" (as I like to call the explosion of interest in early history among those families that had been for some time established here) to produce wishful artifacts.  A rifling bench in 1747, dated no less, in a poor frontier backwater like NH or Berks Co.?  Why?  No American smith of the time could have made a rifle barrel cheaper than one could have been obtained (imported) in Philadelphia, and they have been documented to have been easily obtainable via purchase or trade.  This issue of the bench is of course speculation on my part - I just don't buy it's authenticity, although on a romantic level it is obviously appealing!!!!

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on November 30, 2010, 07:55:39 AM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on November 30, 2010, 12:05:01 AM

... wishful artifacts....I just don't buy it's authenticity, although on a romantic level it is obviously appealing!!!!

Noted.  I'll tone that down.

But what about John Rupp the elder?  Isn't he also somewhat of a wishful artifact?  The guy your writings point to as the senior John Rupp I have as a blacksmith moving to York County around 1789.  "Schmid" in the archived tax records could be a lot of things, but more likely a general blacksmith than a gunsmith.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on November 30, 2010, 05:12:27 PM

There was a John Rupp taxed in Macungie during the "right" period of time, and he *seems* to have been Herman's brother.  He was taxed as a smith only, but his brother Herman was likewise and we here in 2010 certainly have very striking evidence of Herman making rifles.  There is of course the issue of the extant signed rifles by John Rupp, although most are obviously much later rifles.  Very little relevant information seems to have come to light in reference to a senior John Rupp.  I've never really dug too hard into this family as when I was writing the article series I posted online, I was focused upon the period around the War (and the period immediately preceding it) and these Rupps flourished during the period following the War.  When it comes to this family, I'm only aware of the scant information that is easily-obtainable, much of it already published.  I did come across a few references when in Philly searching through the archives, but I don't have them to hand at the moment; just off the top of my head, there are a few surviving records of Herman Rupp being involved with family matters relative to a blacksmith who lived a township or two over, but I can't recall his name at the moment.  I'll dig out my copies and notes and see if I ever came across anything pertaining to John as well.   

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 01, 2010, 03:54:00 AM

A Rupp family member contacted me tonite with some new information on a brother of the Rupp patriarch who immigrated i(probably n 1750 with his brother and sister)....one John Francis Rupp (1749-1816).  We'll run that one to ground, too.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 01, 2010, 04:41:57 AM

THAT is certainly interesting!

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 01, 2010, 05:52:02 AM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on December 01, 2010, 04:41:57 AM

THAT is certainly interesting!

He's real.  The Mormon library has 20 family trees with him on it and Ulrich as his father.  Half of them state he was from "Switzerland" and the other half from "Germany", but that's a common mistake.  There is zero doubt his parents were  from Wimmerau, Alsace, where they spent their entire lives.

Haven't found if he immigrated with his brother or later, but he married a local girl  in 1775 in Westmoreland, Armstrong County NE of Pittsburg at age 26, and died at age 67 in Kittaning.

He produced sons Johann Adam 1787-1870, Jacob 1789-1846, John George (named after his older brother) 1795-1871, and John Francis 1799-1847.

Seems there were are no shortages of "John Rupps", although if a middle name is listed, more often than not that's what the individual was called.

Unfortunately it wasn't until the 1860 federal census that enumerators asked what the householders did for a living.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 01, 2010, 02:16:05 PM

Many of the old tax lists note a trade, although it is haphazard and there certainly is no logical progression or apparent pattern.  More after the Revolution than prior, although there are some gems to be found on the 1760s lists.

Can't find my notes on John yet but Herman Rupp was involved fairly intimately with the administration of the estate of Theobald Fahringer who was a blacksmith up in Lehigh Township.  Also some involvement with Dewalt Fahringer, and there may have been some guardianship of children involved at one point as well.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 01, 2010, 05:03:30 PM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on December 01, 2010, 02:16:05 PM

Many of the old tax lists note a trade, although it is haphazard and there certainly is no logical progression or apparent pattern. 

Yes, but the census lists are all on an instant database no further away than a few keystrokes.  Tax lists take some finding, often at a county courthouse and either undigitalized or badly scanned, although an outfit called Docstock.com has cleaned several old PA archives up and provides them in searchable format for a minimal fee.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 01, 2010, 09:51:02 PM

Did y'all know that like the Newhard-Kuntz and Newhard-Moll gunmakers, the Rupp and the Schreckengost gunmakers were in-laws to each other?  At least twice?

Gunmaker Benjamin Schreckengost (1788-1868) married Susanna Oury (1791-1844), who was the daughter of immigrant Catharina Rupp, gunmaker Herman Rupp's aunt.

...and...

Jacob Simon Rupp (1822-1902) married Mary Ann Schreckengost (1829-1904).  Jacob was a first cousin to gunmaker Herman Rupp, one generation removed.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic20.picturetrail.com%2FVOL12%2F1104763%2F23549184%2F393762758.jpg&hash=6b510cc5150347fbb43b51babeb83c8cd4b12697)

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 02, 2010, 07:40:39 PM

Andreas is Herman's brother Andrew, correct?  Why does it say "Williams" under his name?  There were one or two interesting points I came across in reference to him in NH county records, never followed up on them though as he wasn't involved in arms work.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 02, 2010, 08:01:55 PM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on December 02, 2010, 07:40:39 PM

Andreas is Herman's brother Andrew, correct?  Why does it say "Williams" under his name?  There were one or two interesting points I came across in reference to him in NH county records, never followed up on them though as he wasn't involved in arms work.

Williams Township

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: jdm on December 03, 2010, 05:51:12 AM

   I've enjoyed your discusion  on the Rupp family and other gunsmiths of Northampton County.  I thought you might like seeing a few pictures of what I be live is a John Rupp rifle. It has an egg shaped wrist ,arrow head lock plate And J.R. on the patchbox lid. The other two are from the same area a little later I feel. Hopefully I've got this photobucket thing figured out.        JIM
                              http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/jdmck58/IMG_0371.jpg  

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 03, 2010, 04:08:28 PM

Quote from: Mck on December 03, 2010, 05:51:12 AM

I thought you might like seeing a few pictures of what I be live is a John Rupp rifle. It has an egg shaped wrist ,arrow head lock plate And J.R. on the patchbox lid. The other two are from the same area a little later I feel. Hopefully I've got this photobucket thing figured out.  

Great, thanks.  But that's only one photo.  Go backwards one URL to get the URL for the whole album you created on that rifle, or copy and paste the photo URL's separately.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 03, 2010, 05:59:59 PM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on November 30, 2010, 12:05:01 AM

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the William Moll issue.  I have yet to see anyone produce an actual document proving the man even existed...  I sincerely doubt the validity of the rifling machine.

 "The Gunmakers of Old Northampton," by William J. Heller, originally published in Volume XVII of the newsletter of the Pennsylvania German Society.  The article is dated November 2, 1906.

...my current approach is to follow the chain back to its source.

This is probably the original source....a live interview of William Henry Moll of Allentown by Alfred Mathews or Austin Hungerford before Moll's death in 1889:

“The father of John Moll (1st), whose name was William, was also a gunsmith, and plied his trade as early as 1747.  His great grandson William, has an heirloom descended from him, a device for cutting threads on screws, neatly made of iron, and bearing in plainly legible characters the inscription ‘April 10, 1747 – W.M.’  “ (Mathews and Hungerford p123-4)

Mathews, Alfred and Hungerford, Austin, History of the Counties of Lehigh and Carbon,  Philadelphia, Everts and Richards,1884.  
http://search.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=14003&iid=dvm_LocHist000929-00086-1&sid=&gskw=&cr=1

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: jdm on December 04, 2010, 12:40:28 AM

I'll try this again   JIM

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/jdmck58/IMG_0374.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/jdmck58/IMG_0373.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/jdmck58/IMG_0369.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/jdmck58/IMG_0370.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/jdmck58/10-17-2010Lehigh0102.jpg

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Tom Currie on December 04, 2010, 05:45:29 PM

Jim, Thanks for posting those pics. Three very nice rifles.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: hoochiejohn on December 04, 2010, 07:24:22 PM

To continue the genealogical thread ??? ;D  Hans Theobold Fahringer was the brother-in-law of Herman Rupp...married to Herman's sister Maria Clara Rupp.  Theobold died at age 31, which may explain some of the child custody issues ???
Also, one of Theobold and Clara's daughters (Christine Ferringer) married John (Jacob) Shreckengost of Putneyville, PA...a blacksmith and farmer, possibly some gunsmithing connections...a cousin of the gunsmith William G. Shreckengost, and Lincoln Grant Shreckengost.
Thanks for the great investigation and compliation of information ;D
                                    Hoochiejohn ( S'gost and Rupp descendant )

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 04, 2010, 07:54:39 PM

The Stadtwappen of Nassau an der Lahn, Fahringer's birthplace in the Palatinate.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fo.mfcreative.com%2Ff1%2Ffile01%2Fobjects%2Ff%2F7%2F9%2F1f797141-1eba-4ea6-b730-0588d658a07c-3.jpg&hash=b7a5db0441be1e799146903752621eb11fa38bfe)

Thanks for another Schrecengast-Schreckengost (scarecrow?) link.  I established a temporary Rupp Family Tree to keep track, and have already been contacted by two other family researchers, at least one of whom has a Schreckengost rifle.

When was Christine Ferringer born?  I only show Maria Clara b1766, Mary E b1768 and Barbara b1770 as daughters.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: mkeen on December 04, 2010, 08:48:11 PM

“The father of John Moll (1st), whose name was William, was also a gunsmith, and plied his trade as early as 1747.  His great grandson William, has an heirloom descended from him, a device for cutting threads on screws, neatly made of iron, and bearing in plainly legible characters the inscription ‘April 10, 1747 – W.M.’  “ (Mathews and Hungerford p123-4)

[/quote]


This reference states William Moll's device was for cutting threads on screws and was made of iron. It says nothing about a tool required for rifling a gun barrel. Any comments?

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 04, 2010, 09:05:33 PM

The text in the 19th century "History" states it was a screw cutter; I have seen 20th century texts and articles variously refer to it as a screw cutter and a rifling worm or rifling bed, so the story has been warped a bit.  I don't think it really much matters which it is purported to be; if you buy into the story, then it's the date and initials which are of import rather than the item itself.  Either tool would have been valued to a gunsmith. 

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 04, 2010, 09:20:53 PM

Quote from: mkeen on December 04, 2010, 08:48:11 PM

“The father of John Moll (1st), whose name was William, was also a gunsmith, and plied his trade as early as 1747.  His great grandson William, has an heirloom descended from him, a device for cutting threads on screws, neatly made of iron, and bearing in plainly legible characters the inscription ‘April 10, 1747 – W.M.’  “ (Mathews and Hungerford p123-4)

I've yet to see a rifle with a screw sufficiently large to hand-stamp or engrave "10 Apr 1747 WM" on its die.  Or its die handle for that matter.

But regardless of whether it was a rifling machine, a bore reamer with an auger handle, or something else sufficiently large and valuable to merit an inscription, the question is did a William Moll (1712-1780) exist, and was he a gunsmith?  

Either by correspondence or a live interview with Wm Henry Moll (1829-1889) some time before that book was published in 1884 established that he did and he was.  I can't imagine a motive for either interviewer or interviewee to fabricate all that 130 years after the fact.  William Henry was already descended from a line of six gunsmiths, and he didn't have to add another for emphasis.  Further, the narrative and misdescription reads like the layman author actually saw the heirloom.  William Henry the 4th-generation gunsmith would have described it more precisely.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: hoochiejohn on December 04, 2010, 09:50:51 PM

Bob
      Whoops :-[  Christine Ferringer  ( 1800-1893 ), GRANDDAUGHTER of Maria Clara Rupp and Johannes Theobald Fahringer, and , DAUGHTER of George A. Ferringer ( 1771-1830 ) and Anna Christine ( 1770-1829 ).  I think this is the correct info now ???
      Sorry for the confusion :-[ :-[
                                                         Denny

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: JTR on December 05, 2010, 01:34:49 AM

Quote

I've yet to see a rifle with a screw sufficiently large to hand-stamp or engrave "10 Apr 1747 WM" on its die.  Or its die handle for that matter.

I wouldn't throw out the screw thread cutting machine just because it doesn't fit your story.

A very accurate screw thread cutting lathe was invented in 1739. It used various gears and a hand crank to operate the machine, the gears being used in various sizes to set the number of threads cut.
A machine like that would certainly be large enough to engrave with initials and date, and would have been a machine that any gunsmith or otherwise would have been proud of.  

John

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 05, 2010, 04:04:27 AM

I have no idea if William Moll existed.  The only point I would make is this:  the first mention of him is indeed 130 years after the fact.  I don't think his existence was fabricated for some dark ulterior motive, but his existence - after a century of nothing but the oral passage of history - may have been the result of confusion or mistake.  I don't put much stock in those 19th century history texts because I spent a lot of time and a lot of money in Easton and in Philadelphia with the period documents themselves, and there is a LOT of contradiction.  Many of those authors blatantly copied each others' work with no verification whatsoever.  When in doubt, I will choose to trust the first-hand documents of the period.  That's a personal choice.  In the case of this mysterious William Moll, I found no documents at all.  Neither have any Moll researchers, to my knowledge.  That doesn't mean he did not exist, but it does raise the question.  Given that there are tantalizing clues to various origins for Johannes, and given that currently no paperwork regarding this William has been found, I feel comfortable in expressing doubt.  As my dear and very wise friend Earl Lanning has tried to beat into anyone's head who will listen, there is nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know."  In reviewing the currently surviving paperwork dating to the 18th century for NH County, there are many, many individuals mentioned in assorted petitions, church records, court records etc. who never made it into the tax lists, and those living there at the time were not grunting cavemen; there is a LOT of paperwork involving seemingly insignificant things, and in my experience, if someone was there, chances are one can find some record or mention, somewhere.  The origins of Johannes Moll and his alleged father William remain in doubt.  We can speculate to our heart's content and each put forth our personal hypothetical view, but ultimately, until a first-hand document materializes, we just don't know.   

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: DaveM on December 05, 2010, 04:46:05 AM

Interesting thread..I have done quite a bit of Berks County research, and I believe that generally you will find that many early families have origins in, or lived at least at some point, in early Berks County.

Johannes Moll, "Gunsmith", is listed in a document as owning a 50-acre property in Rockland Township, Berks County in 1763, not real close to Lehigh County.  I suspect his father lived somewhere close by.  This document even includes a description of the buildings listing a smith's shop.  If anyone wants further details let me know.  The occupation of the other part was a "Miller", possibly a working associate.

Also there was a Henry Moll, blacksmith, in Windsor Twp Berks County, in 1768-1770.

Dave

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 05, 2010, 04:56:54 AM

Quote from: JTR on December 05, 2010, 01:34:49 AM

A very accurate screw thread cutting lathe was invented in 1739...

Noted.  But in 1747 in a dirt or puncheon-floor log cabin on the far reaches of the frontier?  Given Britain's strict merchantile policies, I'm not sure there'd be one even  in Philadelphia a decade after its invention in England.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hindley
http://www.academicamerican.com/colonial/topics/britishempire.htm#mercantilism

But it raises an excellent point.  When did lock-making begin in Philadelphia?  We know Ebenezer Cowel was contracted to begin the manufacture of gunlocks in 1776, and the archives talk to buying locks from local makers...but how about 30 years before that in the 1740's?  Didn't those sophisticated goods mostly come from Birmingham and London then?

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 05, 2010, 05:29:10 AM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on December 05, 2010, 04:04:27 AM

I have no idea if William Moll existed.....

... In the case of this mysterious William Moll,... currently no paperwork regarding this William has been found...until a first-hand document materializes, we just don't know.   

Me neither.  But the existing evidence points to his GGGrandson William Henry Moll thinking he existed, and I'm reluctant to discount that easily.

While those old Germans and Swiss were thorough about writing things down, we also lost a lot of those records to fire.  Like almost the entire 1890 Census either destroyed ot damaged by a 1921 fire.  Thatched roofs and stick chimneys were banned in many colonial locales early on, but balloon framing beginning in the 1830's made up for that with a vengeance.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firenuggets.com%2Fx_ARDSIllIIlllllIIIllIlIlIIIllllIllIl%2Fbrannigan252.jpg&hash=7acf98d75a958324febd79046f82269ad5158909)

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Karl Kunkel on December 05, 2010, 06:06:21 AM

Bob,

The picture of the ballon frame wall saves as "brannigan252".  Frank Brannigan?

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 05, 2010, 06:15:20 AM

Quote from: Kunk on December 05, 2010, 06:06:21 AM

Bob,

The picture of the ballon frame wall saves as "brannigan252".  Frank Brannigan?

Yes. 

http://www.firenuggets.com/x_ARDSIllIIlllllIIIllIlIlIIIllllIllIl/brannigan25.htm
http://www.firenuggets.com/authors.htm#brannigan

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 05, 2010, 04:47:13 PM

Hey Dave - you can't throw that one out there with no addt'l information!!  :o :o

Bruce Moyer has done quite a bit of talking with the Angstadt researchers as he too has spent much time digging around after John Moll, and he seems to have come across a few references to a Johannes Moll in Rockland twp. over near or next to Angstadt land.  He also had a copy of an early property map.  What do you have that specifically mentions this Johannes as a gunsmith?  One of the popular theories of origin has always been up through Berks Co.

Edit:  possibly it's conceivable that their is some truth on both sides and it has simply been warped via time - possibly, the Johannes Moll of Allentown *was* the son of a gunmsith, but instead of his father's name being William, it also was Johannes/John and father/son origins were over in Berks like some have suggested.  After all, Johannes/John of Allentown named his gunsmith son John, and he named his gunsmith son John...  something of a family tradition?

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Shreckmeister on December 05, 2010, 06:52:03 PM

Bob,   I don't know if this is relative to the discussion, but Benjamin Schrecengost
was my gggg grandfather.  His father in law Christopher Oury was a distiller in Kittanning area and he provided the land upon which Christ Rupp Lutheran Church was built.  Frantz Rupp was a founding member of the  church.  Benjamin and his family were founding members of the
church.  I'm pasting some church info below that refers to Christopher Uhrig which was the original german spelling before it was changed to Oury.  Christ Rupp Lutheran Church is the oldest church in rural Armstrong County.

"In 1786, Frantz Rupp and his brother-in-law Christopher Uhrig, took up a large tract of land in Kittanning Township for the purpose of building a church. It was in this field that the Rupp settlement gathered for worship. On a portion of this land, in 1786, a cemetery was laid out. It was in this cemetery portion that a log cabin building known as the "German Meeting House" was built in 1796. This was undoubtedly the first Lutheran Church built within the confines of Armstrong County"

Benjamin SGost's grandfather Johann Jost Shreckengast served under Capt
John Moll in the Northumberland Militia according to Historian Gary Schreckengost.
Conrad Schrecengost was Benjamin's father and brother to Heinrich Schrecengost
who was the grandfather of gunmaker William G.    The Schrecengosts were also
intermarried with the Truby and Zartman gunsmiths.  Benjamin's mother was a Zartman and Michael Truby married one of the Schrecengost girls.  Michael was son of Jacob Truby, both were gunsmiths.
  More church info here
CHRIST EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH
KITTANNING TOWNSHIP

ARMSTRONG COUNTY


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About the year 1760, the widow of Ulrich Rupp with her two children, Franz and Christina, emigrated from Germany to America.
After a residence of twelve years in Leigh County, Franz and Christina (now wife of Christopher Uhrig) were found among the pioneers of Westmoreland near Greensburgh.

In 1774 the name of "Frantz Raupp" and "Stofel Uhrig" are found attacted to the historic Fort Allen petition, asking for more adequate protection against the Indians.

Two years later Franz enlisted in the American army, serving in the Fort Pitt garrison until the close of the war. In company with Christopher Uhrig he took up a large tract of land in Kittanning Township in the year 1786.

On a portion of this land patended by Christopher Uhrig, July 31, 1786, a cemetery was laid out; and in this cemetery a log building, know as the "German Meeting House", was built in 1796.

This was undoubtedly the first Lutheran Church built within the confinds of Armstrong County.

The first service in this log church was conducted by Rev. John M. Steck, who deeply interested in this undertaking of his two former parishioners.

From 1796 to 1813, this pastor made annual visits to the Rupp settlement and ministered to the people in the word and sacraments.

The deed for this land was formally executed, June 15, 1814, when Christopher Oury and his wife, for a consideration of $100, conveyed a plot of five and a quarter acers to George Williams and Henry Schrecongost (Henry is Heinrich, grandfather of gunsmith William G. Shreckengost) , acting trustees for the German Meeting House.

Franz Rupp died, December 28, 1817, and his body was laid to rest in the cemetery of the church that has born his name to the present day.

Other men prominent in the early history of the church were:


Conrad Schrecongost
Peter Heilman

Daniel Heilman

Martin Blose

Adam Ohlinger

Daniel Bautsch

David Fitzgerald

George Wiiliams

It was organized as a union church, in which Reformed and Lutheran had an equal share; but te Lutheran element was much stronger, and the Reformed families were absorbed at an early date.

In 1813 they were visited by Rev. John Gottfried Lamprecht, who served as their pastor fo two years. A second and better log church was built during his ministry.

In 1817 the congregation joined with three others in petitioning Ministerium of Pennsylvania for a pastor, and Rev. John Adam Mohler served them from 1817 to 1823.

Rev. David Earhart says of him:

" Though his preaching was fair and his musical talent such that he frequently taugh singing school, it was commonly reported that, because of improper conduct, h lost the confidence of the people and then his charge also.

" He afterwards preached for the Methodists in the state of Indiana."

Rev. Karl M. Zeilfels, a man of similar character, preached for them during the years 1824 and 1824.

It was said that he collected a considerable sum for the church, put the money in his own pocket and left the community. Very little is know of his later life, except that he became a pastor of some independent church in Ohio.

The next pastor was Rev. Gabriel Adam Reichart , a thorough German, a true Lutheran and a man of God.

His private diary indicates that he became a pastor of congregation, October 14, 1825.

For some time previous to this, he was pastor of neighboring churches, and able to preach occasionally at Rupp's.

From October 14, 1825, to December 25, 1837, he served them rergularly ever four weeks, preaching in German, except for a little Englsh sermon during the last four years of his pastorate.

In his private diary he always refers to this church as "Williams", probably because he sometimes preached at the home of George Williams Sr.

In 1830 Konrad Schrecongost and George Wild were the elders, and George Forster and John Krevener the deacons.

From 1829 to 1934, he administered the sacraments of the altar to the following persons in this church:

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: DaveM on December 05, 2010, 08:40:15 PM

Erik, did not mean to keep you hanging, but this is definitely the man, and what I stated is fact.  I was typing a reply and got a call my dad had to go to the emergency room so I've been at the hospital all day until now.  I am only typing this to get my mind off of that, but I think my dad will be ok.  Real priorities in life come rushing back fast.

This document is dated September and October 1763, and is a mortgage and land transfer legal document.  A man named Nicholas Clemens, Moll's neighbor, agreed to hold a mortgage for Moll, payable in full by 1765.  It is unclear what property was being mortgaged, perhaps it was for a purchase by Moll somewhere north.  But as a term of this agreeement, Johannes Moll transferred his 50-acre property with improvements and buildings including a smiths shop, to Clemens.  Therefore Moll was obviously going to move.  By the way his neighbor, Clemens, had the occupation of miller so they probably worked together.  From what I gather, Moll was moving from this location accordingly in the fall of 1763.  Not sure when he was first recorded working further north. 

Johannes Moll is definitely listed in the document as a "gunsmith", not blacksmith or anything else, or I would not stated it this way.  The document also lists that the land transfer included a piece occupied by another man but owned by Moll.  Probably another working associate.  I'll try to post the full transcript soon depending on how my day goes with my dad.  It is clear that he had been well established in Rockland Twp for some time

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 05, 2010, 09:08:19 PM

GREAT!  It has to be more than just a coincidence that this occurs in 1763 and he turns up in Allentown in 1764.  A big question would be is this the same John Moll that married Lydia Rinker in 1772 or is this a father of that John Moll?  If it's the same guy, either he married late or Rinker may have been a 2nd wife.  Also, if he was established as a gunsmith in Berks Co. in 1763, then he had to have been born previous to the 1746 date that is often used (undocumented).  It also means it might be more productive to look for a William Moll in Berks Co. rather than NH.

Hope things work out ok for your father, Dave!!!

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: DaveM on December 05, 2010, 09:29:44 PM

What gets a little more tricky is that Rockland Township was established in 1757, but prior to that it was part of Oley Township.  I have some great research materials on the Oley Valley, as my ancestors settled there in 1749, and other branches of my family even earlier in Oley Township, though my materials are packed away currently and inaccessible.

Johannes Moll was on the list of first taxable when Rockland Township was created in 1757, therefore I suspect we will learn more from very early Oley Township Berks County records.  This tax date would also make him born prior to perhaps 1730.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Laird on December 06, 2010, 01:46:50 AM

In the instance of William Moll, is there any reason why the "device for cutting threads on screws, neatly made of iron, and bearing in plainly legible characters the inscription ‘April 10, 1747 – W.M." couldn't simply be a screw plate? Just speculation of course, but a necessary tool for a gunsmith and something a lot easier to hand down through the generations that a rifling bench (and a lot easier to lose in those later generations)! Just a thought.
Eric

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 06, 2010, 01:54:35 AM

I suspect you are correct.  I still would ask the question:  why date - with a day, no less - a screw plate or any other such tool?  I've seen a LOT of 18th century screwplates, many with stamped initials etc., but never with such a detailed marking.  It's like signing or dating a file - ???  Of course, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been the real deal, it just (in my opinion) smacks of someone in the 19th century having an old screw plate, wanting a nice story and engraving it.  Yes, I am cynical.  Would love to see it turn up in the family and get a look at it.  

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 07, 2010, 05:08:27 AM

Quote from: DaveM on December 05, 2010, 08:40:15 PM

… Johannes Moll transferred his 50-acre property with improvements and buildings including a smiths shop, to Clemens.  Therefore Moll was obviously going to move…. in the fall of 1763…

…Johannes Moll is definitely listed in the document as a "gunsmith", not blacksmith or anything else…

That dovetails perfectly with the Brent Wade Moll narrative that Johannes Moll migrated from Berks County in time to appear on the Allentown tax rolls as a gunsmith in 1764.  

That’s as opposed to Dennis Kasten’s narrative that the 1764 Moll was a married person, not single gunmaker Johannes Moll, who didn’t appear in Allentown until 1772.  

The only problem with the land deal is that Moll’s assumed age of between 17 and 23 is a bit young to be making 160-pound transactions…especially with his father still alive.   Brent Wade Moll reports that the father William Moll didn’t die until 1780 and died intestate in Northampton County, which means he died without a will and had assets distributed under the oversight of the Northampton courthouse.  BW Moll says there is a record of inventory in the archives.  It will be interesting to find it.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa5/mollpa/

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 07, 2010, 06:47:52 AM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on November 28, 2010, 06:04:01 PM

… frankly, given extant first-hand accounts of the time, it is likely there was no gun work of any import occurring in the Allentown area [outside of the Moravian enclave, which is an entirely different matter] prior to the tail end of the 1760s or early 1770s…

Also dovetailing perfectly into a Johannes Moll gunsmith’s possible 1764 move to Allentown is this graphic account of at least 23 Whitehall citizens murdered and scalped on Oct 8, 1763 in a 10-mile raid centered around Egypt….most of them women and children.

“Brief account of murders by the Indians, and the cause thereof, in Northampton County, Penn'a., October 8th, 1763”
http://search.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=14177&iid=dvm_LocHist001076-00007-1&sid=&gskw=&cr=1

Page 30 is a description of how poorly armed the citizenry was and an urgent request for 50 guns, 100lbs of powder, and 400lbs of lead.  Followed by a letter from Governor Hamilton the Assembly that on 22 Oct 1763 passed a bill appropriating 24,000 pounds for raising a defense force of 800 men.

The effects of these terror incidents lasted a generation and more.  Whitehall and Allentown (and the entire Lehigh Valley and beyond) were up to their eyeballs trying to arm themselves by 1764.  Anybody who could sell or make guns…probably of the plain rifle or trade-musket flavor… was likely very busy.  And well-funded.

Also note that Abraham Rincker is the Lieutenant of the local Whitehall defense company.  Abraham was the older brother of Johannes Moll’s bride-to-be, and the mother of John Moll II.  More “who-begat-who” stuff that’s important.  How do you spose she met Johannes, except through a professional relationship with her brother?

Further, Abraham and his wife Gertrude were sponsors at the baptism of John Moll III in 1796, on behalf of parents John Moll II and Elizabeth Newhard.   Abraham was later a Captain in the Revolution.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic20.picturetrail.com%2FVOL12%2F1104763%2F23549184%2F393874009.jpg&hash=392f216c04f32a1c4ec8dc1835929b57382f09cd)

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Shreckmeister on December 19, 2010, 05:14:57 PM

I'm pleased to see your work on the Rupp, Schrecengost, Moll relationships.
I apologize if I already made note of it but the Truby and Zartman families
of gunsmiths were also tied in by marriage.  Most interestingly, I was looking at
the records of the Salem Reformed Church which was formed by the Shrecengosts in Armstrong County and I see that there was a Rev. Pennepacker
leading the church during that era.  Here is the quote from the church records of
the Salem Reformed Church/Hills Church.  "Sept. 1867 – J.J. Pennepacker was ordained to the gospel ministry and installed as Pastor of the Kittanning charge at Belknap Church on Sept. 14, 1867, by a committee of Clarion Classis. Rev. J.G. Shoemaker and Rev. W.G. Engle appeared as members of the committee. Rev. J.G. Shoemaker preached from I Tim. 14:13-16."

I'm wondering if this is yet another connection to an additional gunsmithing family. 

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Pearl on December 19, 2010, 10:23:04 PM

This may have already been mentioned. Especially during the 18th c. a father takes the title of I and son of same name takes the title of II. When father dies, the son takes the I title. It's what makes genealogy fun.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 19, 2010, 10:33:09 PM

The Rupp family appeared to tend toward using middle names as the spoken name more than most, and "I and II" I believe are modern contrivances designed to minimize confusion.

Which is just as well, as there are sufficient potential "John Rupps" in three generations to choke a whole stable of horses:

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic20.picturetrail.com%2FVOL12%2F1104763%2F23549184%2F393801132.jpg&hash=f7272b6e4698fa5a7f6a84d9f6c6e1d6cef7c75a)

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 20, 2010, 02:58:03 AM

Moll was considerably older than 17-23 in 1763 when he moved from Rockland to Allentown, as he is noted on neighboring warrant surveys ca. 1750/51 (of which I have copies coming from Harrisburg).  This means he had to be at least 30, if not older, in 1763, and around 40 when he married Lydia Rinker - this assumes the same man, but given the first-hand information timeline, it possibly is a father/son situation.  I doubt it, but the possibility is very real.  The hypothetical scenario w/ Abraham Rinker and the likelihood of a move to Northampton for $$$ reasons is a VERY very good hypothesis, and probably accurate as the timing is almost too coincidental to be coincidence.  

I would be very curious to know where Kastens retrieved the information regarding Moll - directly via the archives or indirectly via later 'Histories.'  Likewise with Brent Moll - I exchanged quite a few emails with him 4-5 years ago, and I don't believe that he mentioned direct archival research (all of the Northampton Co. paperwork is now microfilmed/microfiched at HSP in Philadephia and very easily accessible) but rather that most of his information on John Moll (this was the only Moll we were discussing) was coming from the 'Histories' as well as Heffner's little book.  That was my impression, anyway.  This is particularly relevant as pertaining to the William Moll story, for to my knowledge, no archival researcher - neither Heffner, myself nor others who have gone through the archives in both Easton as well as HSP - has ever found any paperwork relating to such an individual.  Heffner goes so far as to specifically note this.  This does not mean he did not exist, but it casts the story in doubt until something concrete materializes.  I don't think this doubt implies that later descendants were being deceptive in any way, as obviously there would be no reason to invent such as story.  However, 19th century genaeology based upon oral histories is tenuous at best.  If such paperwork exists I would love to know where it may be found, as perhaps it may shed additional information on Johannes Moll's origins.  

As it now stands, since we know he appeared in Rockland ca. 1750-1751, I am tentatively planning another trip down to HSP to research Philadelphia Co. records (this being what the area was designated at the time) or possibly I may shell out some $$$, use a local pro and save the gas money, given what it costs at the moment!!!!!!    

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on December 20, 2010, 04:06:07 AM

BTW Bob I don't intend that my thinking aloud be taken as any kind of attack on your work, as it is obvious you are devoting quite a lot of time to it and are quite passionate about it.  I assume by posting it publicly that you desire discussion.  We all appreciate it - to attach personal histories to tangible products of the past is absolutely fascinating.  I don't mean to get hung up in reference to Moll in particular, but a few years ago when I spent a lot of time on the NH County 'guys' it was very frustrating and aggravating - to say the least - to find errors consistently perpetuated from text to text (and I am thinking of references to George Leyendecker in particular at the moment...) when simply going directly to the first-hand sources *if available* (which some were, in his case) could have certainly clarified some of the questions which various 19th and 20th century authors were perpetuating.  There is of course much which may never be clarified - that's the nature of trying to clean the window 200 years later, I guess - it may never be completely clean.  I like to approach much of this as a constantly evolving revelation; this is one of the reasons that I chose the internet as a publishing outlet for what I was researching, as if people could verify errors and point them out to me (and a number were indeed noted, for which I am grateful), I could quickly change it.  Not something easily done with a book!!!  

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Karl Kunkel on December 20, 2010, 07:11:48 AM

EK & Bob,

I'd still look forward to a book by either of you some day.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 20, 2010, 05:25:49 PM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on December 20, 2010, 04:06:07 AM

...  I assume by posting it publicly that you desire discussion.......I would be very curious to know where Kastens retrieved the information regarding Moll...

Exactly.  I can't think of a reference work that wouldn't have been improved by a more thorough peer review.  I appreciate your generosity.  One problem inherent in the trades has always been an unwillingness to share…ie, I'll teach you enough to be productive but not enough so you'll become a threat to my rice bowl....and that rice-bowl dynamic extends to other areas as well and does irreparable damage.   You apparently see it in the unavailability of artifacts for study.  I see it in disastrous modern solutions to boatbuilding problems Sinbad solved back in 770AD.  

Kastens in Neuhart Chronicle Vol IV p53-4 on the Molls cites The Woodmansee Collection; John GW Dillin; Henry J Kauffman; Earl S Heffner; the 1772 Allentown Tax list; Deed Book E1 p649 at Easton;Pa Archives 5 Vol 8 pp85, 230, 336, 332; Zion Reformed Church registers in Allentown; Register's File #1702 at Easton; Orphan's Court Docket 6 at Easton; Lower Saucon Reformed Church Register Apr 1827, Apr 1830, Nov 1831, Register's File #6084 at Easton; Register's File #9958 and OC Docket #28 p531.  

Kastens doesn't mention William Moll at all….William is mentioned for the first time in Mathews, Alfred and Hungerford, Austin, History of the Counties of Lehigh and Carbon,  Philadelphia, Everts and Richards, 1884.  

 http://search.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=14003&pageno=1

I can certainly support Johannes Moll being born in 1733 versus 1746.  It passes the common-sense test that he died at age 61 rather than 47.  When prominent people died young or under unusual circumstances….like Christian Oerter at 30 from tuberculosis, or David Kuntz’s father at 33 after a “long, lingering illness”, the Kuntz and Newhard kin slain by Indians, or Peter Moll II from drowning at 33….the circumstances were generally noted somewhere.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 20, 2010, 06:46:50 PM

This work would benefit greatly from a more thorough study of incidents with local Indian tribes.  Many of the "histories" mention the 1755 massacre of Moravian missionaries, then go on to say Northampton County was "spared" the troubles experienced by communities further out. 

You only have to scratch the surface to discover that to be total nonsense, even if some of the incidents were exaggerated.  "Warfare" with Britain or France in the minds of settlers in 1775 didn't mean Redcoats or Hessians, it meant tribal allies being unleashed on civilian settlers.  The terror of these incidents rippled throughout adjacent counties, and was heightened by the settler’s lack of faith in the Quaker political hierarchy’s unwillingness to provide protection.  Further, Indian incidents appear to be much more common than portrayed, and precipitated a number of important actions. 

The 1755 attacks killed a number of settlers besides the Moravians, including Kuntz, Newhard and (later) Moll kinfolk.  Accordingly, Peter Newhard’s 16-year-old cousin whose family had been made refugees by those attacks, walked over 90 miles to Harrisburg to enlist in Thompson’s Rifle Battalion as soon as Northampton County received the news that outfit was being formed in 1775.

The murder of 23 settlers in 1763…13 of them young children…probably precipitated Johannes Moll’s move to Allentown because of the money (finally) appropriated for weapons and a local defense force.  There he likely works with the defense force’s #2, and eventually marries his sister.

Peter Newhard’s other cousin Christopher, who was later killed at the Battle of Long Island, enlisted in the Pennsylvania Rifle Regiment in early 1776, the year after his 69-year-old father-in-law had been shot, stripped and scalped by Indians in Plainfield township.  Another unlikely coincidence.

And I had no idea that Wilkes Barre was totally destroyed by Seneca Indians unleashed by the British as late as 1778, with a reported 227 lives lost.  If accurate, that’s a biggie.

Title: Re: John Rupp I....?
Post by: Bob Smalser on December 28, 2010, 08:15:04 PM

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on December 20, 2010, 02:58:03 AM

Moll was considerably older than 17-23 in 1763 when he moved from Rockland to Allentown, as he is noted on neighboring warrant surveys ca. 1750/51 (of which I have copies coming from Harrisburg).

I hope you'll post those when you get them.

What makes the early Molls pivotal is they were one of the first families to attempt gunmaking as their primary source of income.  It was a seasonal activity with guys like Newhard also farming 300+ acres, and the Moravians then were buffered by a large, productive commune, then hampered by the departure of Andreas Albrecht and the early death of Christian Oerter.  It kept the Molls cash poor...in the 1760's John I didn't even own a horse for transportation...but poor is probably what made them prolific.