AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: leatherman on December 29, 2010, 09:46:53 PM
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A friend of mine and I went to an auction in York PA a couple of weeks ago to look at a longrifle advertised as a plain old flint smoothbore rifle. The only picture was of the patchbox side and it was poor at best. Well when we rolled the rifle over we both just about s... our pants. We knew exactly what it was. The barrel was signed but it could not be read as it was pitted too much. We took a digital picture of the signature and then blew it up in the camera and it majically appeared. J.P.Beck plain as day. Well we figured what we could scrape together and and got on the bidding but our money ran out and we didnt get it. I spoke to the owner and he said the rifle was given to his wife by an elderly antique dealer 8 years ago. He had it appraissed 2 years ago and was told it was worth $3000. He was only expecting to get that for the gun. Well I will only tell you it went for more that 10 times that. Goes to show they are still out there guys.
(https://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/Leatherman2/Longrifles/SDC10021.jpg)
(https://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/Leatherman2/Longrifles/SDC10018.jpg)
(https://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/Leatherman2/Longrifles/SDC10020.jpg)
(https://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/Leatherman2/Longrifles/SDC10019.jpg)
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Sorry more pictures
(https://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/Leatherman2/Longrifles/SDC10020.jpg)
(https://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/Leatherman2/Longrifles/SDC10019.jpg)
(https://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/Leatherman2/Longrifles/SDC10018.jpg) *fixed link Dennis*
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Fine rifle. Your right, there are still some good ones out there waiting to be found, but not many like this one.
Frank
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Heres the PB side,
(https://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/Leatherman2/Longrifles/SDC10021.jpg)
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Wow, what a gorgeous Beck! That's a 'where have you been all my life find'. Thanks for sharing those pics with us.
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Leatherman, You seem to be a magnet for finding good guns lately, why don't you rub some rabbits feet and sell them, I'd like to pick up some of that kind of luck myself! ;D
Frank
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A spectacular find!!! Thank you for bringing this gun to the table. Wish we could handle it, but the photos say it all, almost as well. Superb attic/closedt condition; hope that the owner doesn't touch it, except for a coat of protective wax. There are similarities between this wood box gun and the one the Frazier Museum has, (carving, architecture, etc.). Wonder if it has 'INRI' engraved on the the bottom of the barrel?
Like almost all of the other wood box Beck guns, this one is uncarved on the right side of the wrist, whereas virtually all of the brass box guns have carving, there. Would like to know if this rifle has a half-round barrel? Nearly all of the wood box guns have this type of barrel. Wonder what was going on in Beck's mind in building these guns?
A minor thing, but the lock looks a bit late for this gun and it may be that it was replaced sometime in the life of the gun. Don't think that Beck lived into the period of the round tailed English lock plate.
Would like to see full length photos of the gun and the box cavity.
Seems to me that the buyer got a bargain on this one. Leatherman, I would much rather that you had won the prize. Thanks again.
Dick
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I dont have a picture of the rifle full length but I can tell you it did have a octagon to round barrel and it was very thin walled barrel and about 54 cal. The lock really threw us originally when we saw the ad for the auction. The archetechture looked like a beck but the lock looked later period. Had the auction house posted a picture of the carved side there would have been a couple hundred more guys there for sure. I have another gun I found this past year I will post tonight.
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Thank you for the additional information. It helps a lot. We'll all be looking forward to your next set of photos this evening. As Frank mentioned, you have a gift for finding em, and this next one must be worth waiting for, too.
Dick
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Ohhhhh Myyyyyy I'm 49 and wish I had been conscious of these rifles in my
teens when the guns were being set out for garage sales. I keep hearing
stories.
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Nice rifle, and a lucky buyer!
It sounds like you guys weren't the only ones looking at it with a sharp eye!
If it sold for some over 30K, depending on the condition of the remainder of the gun, that might have been a killer deal, or maybe about all the money.
No more pictures?????
John
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I think it was a great deal for the buyer as JP Beck is a very collectable maker based on what I have seen sell at gun auctions. We just ran out of available cash or the guy would have had to pay more than he did. The only queastion is how high was he willing to go?
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That side plate looks awful flat in the picture. Maybe a replacement at the same time as the lock?
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Thats proof positive to keep looking ! I don't know if this story has been told here before, but it concerns the Beck rifle in the Montgomery house Museum in Danville, Pa. I was told the story by the curator, a sweet old lady who runs the place. Her phone rings one day and the guy on the other end wants to donate an old muzzleloader. She says fine bring it over. The guy shows up, gives her the gun, and says when his dad gave it to him he told him to make sure it went to a museum when he got old. Neither one has a clue what it is. A few years pass and the museum is having a function based on civil war relics. There are games, food, etc. to raise funds for the museum. One of the reenactors goes through the museum and he, as you said, just about s^& his pants? He informed these fine ladies what they had sitting in an unlocked case inside. Absolutely true story, the gun is currently insured for 60K. ( I recently shared the story with Brad at Cabin Creek, He is going to Measure the gun this spring and make me a bench copy. )
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Beautiful condition, finish is great! Unlucky not to own it but a privilege to even put your hands on it. It keeps you going.
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I dont have a picture of the rifle full length but I can tell you it did have a octagon to round barrel and it was very thin walled barrel and about 54 cal. The lock really threw us originally when we saw the ad for the auction. The archetechture looked like a beck but the lock looked later period. Had the auction house posted a picture of the carved side there would have been a couple hundred more guys there for sure. I have another gun I found this past year I will post tonight.
There are late Becks with round tailed locks.
The 52 cal 1/2oct smooth rifle in the Cody Museum had a lock like the one in Whiskers "Gunsmiths of Lancaster County" pg 71 still showing the little tit at the rear of the mortise. It now has a late Birmingham (?) very round tail lock that was likely installed while at Winchester and does not really fit the gun. I think needs to be relocked with a better example but I doubt this will ever happen. It is a dandy Beck very much like the p71 and deserves a far better display than when I last saw it on display. I was fortunate to get a close look at the rifle when it was out of the case a while back though I could not touch ::) But at least I got a look at the lock side. And was able to explain some things about the rifle to the guy helping me look. Fully carved, engraved "whale tail PB" etc.
Its a dandy.
I explained that this was far more significant to America than the Manton double shotgun that have in a walk around case. They have a nice N Beyer too that is only viewable on one side...
Dan
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Yeah sort of like having a blind date with a gorgeous woman that out of your league and she shoots you down when you ask to see her again. Well it was nice while it lasted.
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I don't much care for it. Obvious lock and box replacement poorly done plus repairs of an equal status. Gorgeous rifle attacked by a hack. The rifle would be worth more than the price paid if he had not touched it. A 20 grand swing as far as I'm concerned.
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Oh my gosh! That is the most wonderful gun I have seen in a very long time.... that is a treasure. Proof that going to auctions still pays albiet you have to go to one h#ll of a lot of them to find something like that. I love that gun :D
happy new year! tc
after I made my post and am reading the other comments... who cares if A hack gunsmith made some changes ? it is a beck gun for petes sake and a nice one , nice stock architecture and nice carving . The hack gunsmith mods are just a part of the history of this piece, and I don't know why it is reffered to as being "hack" work... remember... there was a time when gun just being FUNCTIONAL was the priority. In retrospect we can look back and say sure it would have been nice if this or that had happened ... but that ain't reality. Very nice gun I just love that thing just the way it is , I can fully appreciate all I imagine it had been through. A very nice and exceptional rarely fond treasure as far as I am concerned.......................................................
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I have to agree. We looked at the lock / Lock mortise very closely and determined it was probably replaced a long time ago. Also the patch box seemed to be very old on the bottom side but for some reason looked like it had been refinished or at least cleaned up as it didnt match the rest of the rifle stock, probably was a replacement way back when. The stock was very dry and cracked but had not been touched or repaired any where. A little cleaning and wax would make the wood pop on the rifle. The barrel was badly pitted. No hack job on this rifle just lots of use and ageing from probably hanging over a fireplace for years drying out the wood.
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Just for the naysayers; a friend who is a KY dealer, primarily, conjectured that this rifle is potentially worth twice what the gavel price was. KY collectors do not tend to look at original guns the way builders, or the less infomed, see them. The name, original condition and the ornamentation are what appeals to them. A lot of money was left on the table at that auction
unless I miss my guess.
Dick
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A genuine J.P. Beck rifle!! What a find! :P Who cares if it has been "hacked" - it can always be "unhacked"! by someone who knows what they are doing. The odds of finding an "untouched" Beck are astronomical! So lets preserve what's left and be thankfull to have the privilege to do it. Hugh Toenjes
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These guns are national treasures. No matter who's name is or is not on the barrel.
Having one in this condition posted on the site is a gift.
Dan
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Little wonder folks are attracted to Beck rifles.
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Thanks for posting. Much learned just studying these pictures!
Gus D. :)
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Interesting read, and by all means thanks for sharing the auction story and pics. Cheers,BucksCo.shooter
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Gentlemen,
The "hacking" is all part of the gun's history. A great rifle and I would leave it just as it is, albeit a little cleanup and TLC.
I wonder if the opinion of the "hacking" would change if we knew it was done by an 16-year old Jacob Hawken?
Just my opinion,
Steve
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Steve: A "hack job" is a "hack job" no matter "who" did it. Also I think that a 16 yr. old Jacob Hawken would have more gun making savvy than any of us on the ALR site. ;)
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So Gentlemen;
I'm not to familiar with these forum things but feel free to blast me if I'm not PC; I'm used to it having been married twice more than I shoulda. So I'm replying on this thread because it got me into registering and all that. I've got a J.P Beck. It's come down through the family moreorless the male primogeniture route.
Because of the aforementioned indenture of the householder variety, I kinda kept this piece under wraps, but it's in exactly the same condition it was on my grandfather's wall when I was a kid. A bit dirty, stock wired together for missing nose piece, pieces missing or broken here and there.
So I've had it stashed at a friend's house. He wear's one of those flintlock caps. When we finally got around to putting on his kitchen table for a close look see, he was able to identify the flint as some kind of "french amber" Well this was mainly an exercise for my son who displays an uncanny ability in comprehending old technologies, since when and if he has a son I suppose I get to pass it to him for the safe keeping.
So I would like to throw a few photos up so I can learn from the many experts hanging around. But even more, I can tell you people really love these guns.
I won't apologize for the condition of the gun. All I know is it's BEAUTIFUL.
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So Gentlemen;
I'm not to familiar with these forum things but feel free to blast me if I'm not PC; I'm used to it having been married twice more than I shoulda. So I'm replying on this thread because it got me into registering and all that. I've got a J.P Beck. It's come down through the family moreorless the male primogeniture route.
Because of the aforementioned indenture of the householder variety, I kinda kept this piece under wraps, but it's in exactly the same condition it was on my grandfather's wall when I was a kid. A bit dirty, stock wired together for missing nose piece, pieces missing or broken here and there.
So I've had it stashed at a friend's house. He wear's one of those flintlock caps. When we finally got around to putting on his kitchen table for a close look see, he was able to identify the flint as some kind of "french amber" Well this was mainly an exercise for my son who displays an uncanny ability in comprehending old technologies, since when and if he has a son I suppose I get to pass it to him for the safe keeping.
So I would like to throw a few photos up so I can learn from the many experts hanging around. But even more, I can tell you people really love these guns.
I won't apologize for the condition of the gun. All I know is it's BEAUTIFUL.
As you might guess I would love to see some photos.
Dan
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Vermont Glenn,
Yes, please do post some pictures! And it would be best if you post them in a new thread, and not at the end of this one.
If you have questions regarding posting pictures, just ask.
Looking forward to seeing your Beck!
John
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I would enjoy seeing the pictures as well, can't wait!
FK
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Love to have the pictures for the ALR Museum.
Hurricane
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Thanks for posting the pics and story, Leatherman! Not to be greedy (well, actually, I am being greedy!)--any more pics? ;)
Jim
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No I dont. Took these at the sale with my phone. This rifle has been restored and a proper lock has been installed. I hope it shows up at Lexington CLA show this month.