AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Ken G on January 12, 2011, 01:33:51 AM

Title: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on January 12, 2011, 01:33:51 AM
Has anyone ever seen another rifle with the little round stamp just behind the lock bolt?  All three of the rifles pictured are Soddy rifles.  2 of the photos are not that detailed but they do simingly have a round mark of some sort in about the same spot.  
Any help or even speculation on what it is would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/Packdog1/Soddy%20Daisey%20rifles/Soddy7.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/Packdog1/Soddy%20Daisey%20rifles/Lockbolt.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/Packdog1/Soddy%20Daisey%20rifles/TracksSoddygun9.jpg)
Title: Re: Soddy Daisey question
Post by: billd on January 12, 2011, 01:42:04 AM
Looks like a daisy.   ;D
Title: Re: Soddy Daisey question
Post by: bgf on January 12, 2011, 01:56:43 AM
How about a store stamp?  Big general or hardware stores would often stamp their names on products even with the makers name already on them.  It was important in those days, both for advertising (and I suppose to prevent theft) and so people could tell the general quality (by the reputation of the store) before national brands -- this could be some sort of logo from the "retailer" of the rifles?  Just a wild guess.  Curious myself.  If you are close to Soddy-Daisy, you could ask some of the older guys -- there might just be a few left who would know what it was.  Those are nice, simple well-made rifles by the looks of it.
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: WElliott on January 12, 2011, 02:09:22 AM
Ken, I like the previous responses, but wonder if you know whether these three rifles were made by different smiths or, perhaps, made in the same shop.  All I see, of course is the offside panel but the lock bolt plates are similar, although I can see that the guards are different. 
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on January 12, 2011, 02:42:26 AM
The store stamp sounds plausible.  I was wondering if it might be some mark associated with home guard or militia during the civil war.

Wayne,
The first gun is unattributed.  The second is a signed Clement.  The third is unknown.    The guards on #2 and #3 are similar and have a split rod grip rail, but very unlike #1.  WIthout a doubt they are all in the Soddy school but I believe by different smiths. 

Cheers,
Ken
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Sequatchie Rifle on January 13, 2011, 12:04:34 AM
Ken, I've seen two rifle this year bearing the same stamp.  I spent a couple of hours last night going through my rifles and my photos and can't find them again.  I have no idea what it could be.  Surely some of the old timers have ideas?
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on January 13, 2011, 03:11:28 AM
I sure appreciate you looking.  I hope the photos will resurface.  I'd like to at least lock it down to a maker or just geographic area. 

Thanks,
Ken
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: LynnC on January 13, 2011, 08:14:27 AM
The stamping itself in one of the pics looks like a sunburst type of blacksmiths touch mark commonly seen on early 1800s and older items.....Lynn
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: woodsrunner on January 13, 2011, 05:53:34 PM
Ken, just got off the phone with my friend from home (Blairsville, Ga.), Billy Harkins, who has what James Levy and I THINK is a Soddy rifle. It has no circular stamp like you are asking about. Billy also has photos of another rifle that is in Blairsville, owned by another friend, that we THINK is may be a Daddy Kress rifle since it has all of the characteristics and is stamped on the barrel J.K. This rifle doesn't have the circular stamp either. I'd like to email you photos of the first mentioned rifle for your opinion if you have time to look at it. I'm not computer savvy enough to put the photos on the Board.
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on January 13, 2011, 05:56:47 PM
email sent
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: james spears on January 15, 2011, 03:23:09 AM
I have a Soddy Daisy rifle with the stamp, also.  The stamp is very worn, no name on the rifle, and the barrel is very worn.  Patch box, trigger guard, and architecture look like the Clement rifle on page 52, Volume 3 of Jerry Noble's book.  The Soddy on page 54, Volume 3 may also have a stamp. 

I think there may also be a stamp on the  Enoch Hardin rifle page 113, Volume 2 of Noble's book.
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on January 15, 2011, 04:06:15 AM
Wow!  Any chance of you sending me a picture?  I'll post it on the board if you don't care. 
Ken
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: james spears on January 15, 2011, 04:44:28 AM
Yes, may take a little time. Will get my Daughter to help me.
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on January 15, 2011, 05:34:09 PM
James was kind enough to send this picture.  Sure looks like the same or similar mark to me.  WIthout seeing other photos it hard to tell about the maker but it doesn't look to be from the same guy that built mine.
Ken



(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/Packdog1/Soddy%20Daisey%20rifles/JamesSoddy.jpg)
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Don Getz on January 15, 2011, 05:54:12 PM
To those of you in the know.   I am not a student of southern mountain rifles.    I have always wondered, what is a
"Soddy" rifle.   Were they made in a certain area, is it just a type of gun, or what?   I have never heard of these types of
rifles being classified, or put into "schools" like Penna. rifles.  I'm just curious...........Don
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: eagle24 on January 15, 2011, 06:11:59 PM
Ken,
This is very interesting to me.  I have talked to a few guys who know quite a bit about Iron Mounted Southern Rifles, and they told me that there were a lot of unknowns when it comes to these rifles.  I know that a lot of these rifles didn't survive to see the 21st century.  It really surprising that there are 4 examples of this mark (in this thread) and it's unknown as to its origin or meaning.  Glad to see that you and others are still digging and trying to find answers.
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on January 15, 2011, 06:29:29 PM
Hi Don. The term Soddy Daisy or Soddy rifle refers to a style of E. TN rifle made in an area about 20 miles northeast of Chattanooga, TN.  Rifles from this area have very ditinctive architecture that is different from Upper E. TN rifles.  I attached a link for anyone interested.

The towns of Soddy and Daisy weren't really combined into one city until about 1969 but that should give you an idea of how close together they were.  The area was settled in the very early 1800s. 

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10960.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10960.0)
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on January 15, 2011, 06:48:57 PM
GHall,
There's lot still to learn about the Southern builders.  The late Robin Hale said he had documented over 500 TN gunsmiths and 50 that were building rifle prior to 1800.   Unfortunately these rifles were either very utilitarian and got used up or destroyed during the occupation of the South during the civil war.  Nor do they have the glitz and glamor of the PA rifles so not as much research has been done.
There are rifles still out there as proved last year by the Bean on display at the Norris show. 
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: angus on January 16, 2011, 06:48:58 AM
Ken,
Quite the interesting question and strange that it shows up on so many different rifles.

Is the mark on top or under the finish? Maybe hard to tell after this many years of handling.
Could the mark be a stamp that was acquired at a log shoot signifying their presence at one event?
It would be even more of a treat to find the original stamp. Probably got made into a center punch, a nail drift or is still buried in some family toolbox in the back of the wood shed.
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Don Getz on January 16, 2011, 06:53:01 PM
Thanks Ken.    I had no idea that there were towns by the name of "Soddy", or "Daisy".    I had often heard Ron Borron
talk about a Soddy Daisy gun, but had no idea of what that really meant.   I always thought of these southern mountain
rifles as being built, basically, by poor people.   They were forging parts from almost any old things they could turn up.
It's amazing  what they built under such crude conditions............Don
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Sequatchie Rifle on January 18, 2011, 11:58:13 PM
Don Soddy Daisy is just over the mountain from Ken and about 20 miles from my ancestrial home.  Ain't much there!
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: JTR on January 19, 2011, 09:27:06 PM
I know a guy that used to live there, and still goes there to visit inlaws. He says the place is just a collection of trailer trash for the most part. :(
I asked him to keep his eyes open for rifles anyway!
John
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on September 02, 2019, 03:53:48 AM
I'd like to resurrect this thread if I could.  Lots of new members that may be able to shed some light on what the round stamp on some Soddy rifles might be. Please see the pictures I posted.  All comments and are welcome.

Cheers,
Ken
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ky-Flinter on September 02, 2019, 08:23:35 PM
Ken,

I don't have any info on the Soddy's, but wanted to say Hi and Where the h--- have you been?  Glad you're back.

-Ron
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Arnie Dowd on September 02, 2019, 11:21:48 PM
Ken -  Very interesting thread and new info.  I've had a John Clement's (Sr.) classic Soddy/Daisy rifle (stamped J. C.) for over 45 yrs and it has the same, round stamp and with a lighted glass I can see two of the small indents on the perimeter.  Honestly I had never noticed it and if I had I most likely thought it to be a dent but to be that almost perfectly round someone would have had to hit square on with a ball-peen hammer.  Hopefully there is an answer.  I phoned Jerry Noble, who many of you know and he was unaware of such a mark/stamp and will check the four Soddy rifles he still has.  Ken - as you know the two Clements, father (Sr. 1819 to 1875 prox) and son (Jr. 1841-1896) along with Enoch Hardin probably made what we think of as the most classic Soddy/Daisy rifle and they are unique.  According to Jerry if they are stamped "J. C." the rifle is thought to be by Sr. and if stamped "J. W. C." or With the full last name "Clement" the rifle is thought to be by the son.  In 1850 Sr. is listed as a Blacksmith and Jr. is 10 yrs old.  By the 1860 census they are in the same household and both listed as a Gunsmith.  In 1880 Jr. is still listed as a gunsmith.  Jr. served in Co I of the 2nd Tenn Union 12/1861 to 10/1862, saw basically no action and was released for medical reasons and is buried in Hughes Cemetery in Bakewell in Hamilton County so they never went far.  His grave stone lists only his name and military service info.  Now that's probably more "Clement" info than anyone wanted !  but Thank You Ken for bringing to light this new detail as this is what's fun.  Now for an answer.  Arnie Dowd
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on September 03, 2019, 01:22:21 AM
Arnie,

Thank you so much for the information and confirming the existence of another Soddy rifle with that mark.  A similar mark seems to be on the rifle "Track of the Wolf" has on its website for the percussion, Southern Mountain Rifle. 

The first rifle pictured in this thread is mine.  I have not found any maker marks on it.  The similar architecture and sideplate but different triggerguard styles really has me scratching my head. 

Thanks again for the info!

Cheers,
Ken
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Sequatchie Rifle on September 03, 2019, 04:56:28 AM
I have, or had, a rifle with that mark and finally convinced myself that it was an indentation from a screw head. Iíll go out to the smokehouse this week and dig through my pile of old hog guns. Maybe I still have it. Glad you resurrected the post Ken!
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on September 04, 2019, 01:54:54 PM
A friend was kind enough to share another example of a Soddy rifle with the same stamp.  I have permission to share with the group in hopes we can collectively figure the origins of the stamp. 

Thanks,
Ken

(https://i.ibb.co/JRWJp0N/IMG-1001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MDy01Wb)

(https://i.ibb.co/pKJV982/IMG-1002-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qgkqPfB)
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: WESTbury on September 04, 2019, 04:41:26 PM
Good Morning,

Were any of the builders of these rifles Masons?

 There are Masonic symbols having the configuration of the stampings on these rifles. Sounds "far fetched" right. Not really, there were at least two dozen Masons working at Springfield Armory during the period from 1796 through the early 1840's and probably beyond that date as well. Some of these Masons had stamps with Masonic symbols and used them during their duties to mark the musket components they worked on, as required in Armory Regulations. Two of these identified symbols were the Ever Seeing Eye and the Square and Compass. This is all documented in a Man at Arms article in Vol 35, No. 4, August 2013 by Kent W. Johns and Peter A. Schmidt. Also in Appendix F in the book Springfield Armory Infantry Muskets 1795-1844 by Kent W. Johns, published in 2015 by Mowbray Publishers.

I've attached a sheet I found, during my research for the book and magazine article, showing some of the many Masonic Symbols. Please notice that two of the circle symbols bear a striking resemblance to two of the symbols of two rifles posted in this thread.

Also attached are two of my personal photos that show Masonic Symbols on the lockplates of two Springfield Armory muskets, one dated 1806 (Ever Seeing Eye) and the other 1823 ( Square and Compass). I've identified eighteen Springfield flintlock lockplates with Masonic Symbols.

 Just a thought. Thanks for your attention.

(https://i.ibb.co/718S9w3/MASONIC-SYMBOLS.png) (https://imgbb.com/)


Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Cades Cove Fiddler on September 04, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
 :o :o :o... WESTbury might just be onto something, here,... !!! ... if not Masonic, maybe some other fraternal organization,... I do know that "The Grange" was active in the SE TN area about that time,... others as well,... symbol does resemble the one in the 7 o'clock position on your chart,.... Now, Ken,.. that is a great looking Soddy,... is she maker marked,..?... also all are known guns marked with the subject symbol heavy match rifles or lighter guns, too,...??? ... interesting subject,... regards,... Cades Cove Fiddler,......
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Arnie Dowd on September 04, 2019, 05:45:33 PM
My "J.C." (assuming  Clements Sr.) is a typical, lighter (for its size) off hand, rifle;  not that it could not have been used in a match.  It has a  42 inc barrel of  .40 caliber.  I believe it has been shortened about 6" due to sight being moved and where the initials are stamped.  At 42" it makes it a much nicer off-hand size.
Otherwise its in very nice condition.
Arnie
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: WESTbury on September 04, 2019, 07:05:21 PM
Ken,

There are two Masonic Lodges in Soddy-Daisy. They are Lodge #418 & #706. They should have a listing of all past members, the Masons are  very organized and proud of their heritage.

If you contact them and tell them why you are seeking info, they may be glad to help.
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Cades Cove Fiddler on September 05, 2019, 05:10:22 AM
 ??? ??? ???... might just be worth a call & visit to Soddy soon,... !!!
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Cades Cove Fiddler on September 05, 2019, 05:14:41 AM
 :o :o :o... Arnie,... post some photos,.... always good to see the interesting rifles you have found,... !!! ... hope to talk soon,... hope all is well....
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on September 05, 2019, 01:43:43 PM
Thanks for all the comments and ideas.   I would like to see some pictures also if you would be so kind as to post them for all to see and study.  The emergence of this stock architecture has always caught my interest. 

Thanks,
Ken
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Arnie Dowd on September 05, 2019, 05:31:03 PM
I will try to get my daughter to help me as I am no good at taking and posting photos with my phone.  My age is a factor !  It will take a few days as a few of you know both my wife and son are sick and live here with me.  Will say that it has a nice cigar-shaped patchbox as would be expected and really great TG.
Arnie Dowd
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on September 05, 2019, 05:52:28 PM
Thanks!   We will all enjoy and study the pictures when you are able to share.

Ken
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: johngross on September 05, 2019, 07:14:51 PM
Just an observation, for what it's worth. The mark is located right about where a military inspectors cartouche was placed on rifles/muskets from that era.
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: WESTbury on September 06, 2019, 04:27:31 AM
For those who have not read it, there is a good but somewhat dated 18 page article on Tennessee Rifles on the ASAC website.

AmericanSocietyofArmsCollectors.org by Robert C. Hale presented in 1970
Title: Re: Soddy Daisy question
Post by: Ken G on September 06, 2019, 04:49:22 AM
WESTbury,

Robin's paper is something I pull out and re-read every year or so.  I sure wish I'd have had a chance to meet him. 

Cheers,
Ken