AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: MGretz on January 17, 2011, 06:13:25 AM
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Does anyone recognize the initials of this gunmaker? Looks like JK or LK to me. Any ideas? More pictures of rest of rifle will follow.
Mike
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2578.jpg%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2578.jpg&hash=116548a41049f2339a134ed3025ba88b2c07a31f)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2581.jpg&hash=66398ee21f0600a55ae4cc476e8f69536b3713fe)
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more pictures (edited by Dennis to show photos)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2584.jpg&hash=6ce37f23cdada732c4be2b7f7193a2c6af7a6318)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2598.jpg&hash=672b53b946a1c052b0af16cc63ef2449d9b9ffaa)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2597.jpg&hash=bc9307628fd1cf589264adc1094b636f977e95d1)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2591.jpg&hash=b5c8558bda568b9ca17fd4e7beaccc5180ed1a69)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2585.jpg&hash=73961c3efac5afb2c939b950dd280041357bab0c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2589.jpg&hash=35bb3e0269cf62878dcd0c95e3db9a06b910286f)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2592.jpg&hash=52fffd044b126809800e01d055ef28744f4649cf)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2587.jpg&hash=bb2a80bba2ded0776664592a58ccd9ec6eb1b13e)
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It's a classic example of a Southern Mountain Rifle, with great architecture. I would guess that it is East Tennessee, but some others here know more than I do about these rifles. There are quite a few possibilities on those initials. Maybe someone here will recognize them.
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Welcome the forum and thanks for posting the pictures. I was able to convert one of your links to a photo. Do you a picture showing the tang by chance?
I agree, East Tennessee rifle and I'd say upper East TN. The buttplate, trigger guard, triggers and architecture all look TN to me but I haven't seen a capbox like that on one.
No idea on the maker though. Sorry
Cheers,
Ken
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Aw heck! I forgot to take a picture of the tang. Here's as close as I can come this morning (gotta get going to work).
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2596.jpg&hash=9450288cff8fa41c3f735c8d4514ecbd51eb9ff0)
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Thanks to Mike for coming over yesterday and taking photos of my rifle. Also thanks to him for showing me this forum!
A bit of history on it, though it won't help with much...I picked it up about 30 years ago from the Old West Gun Room in El Cerrito, CA, when it was run by Dangerous Dave Cumberland, formerly the Old Western Scrounger until he sold his mail order business to Val Forgett. Dave had bought it from one of the local moving companies, as abandoned stored goods, along with a halfstock Great Western Gun Works rifle, which I also bought. The fullstock is about .31 caliber, the halfstock is about .34. According to Dave, both rifles were in the same abandoned shipment. I'm afraid that I have no other information on them. I'll try to get Mike over to get a photo of the tang later this week, and if there's any interest, to get photos of the other rifle to post.
David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
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Sent you an email
Dennis
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In the cheek side pic it doesn't look like the tang reaches the comb.....I think??
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In the cheek side pic it doesn't look like the tang reaches the comb.....I think??
You are correct. It stops about an inch shy of the comb. Mike came over this afternoon and took some more photos, I'm sure that he'll post them after a bit.
David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
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Dennis - THANKS for the friendly email with instructions using photos on the forum, and for editing my original posts to make the photos show. Very helpful. I think I got it now! :-)
Ken, here is a picture of the tang.
As David Kaiser said, this is his rifle. I saw it on a visit to his gun shop this past weekend (he's a full time gunsmith who's shop is just 4 blocks from my house), and I immediately wanted to learn all I could about it. This forum seemed like the place to start.
Mike Gretz
Montezuma, Iowa
P.S. I've also reposted the first photo which shows the rifle maker's initials on top flat of the barrel, between the breech and the rear sight.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2600.jpg&hash=9e1a2b7e71af69a6d2ab4ace850ecd946c737b69)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2578.jpg&hash=17239af1567ce5ef6105dee2c32a686fb80ce462)
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a few more details photos...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2601.jpg&hash=1612ac0815b4e83d7fcda54810028f193d9a83d9)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2593.jpg&hash=326d3ec25db489bd25eaaffdf9b2fe4c9bcac018)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2595.jpg&hash=d94026a9d50336e03e32c035a6d4c0444b6da110)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2588.jpg&hash=75c21610cc5693e6f2fdb20835bd556f2689f146)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2594.jpg&hash=edc40f1455316c72c8a77ed1cdda010d7a6cff79)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2590.jpg&hash=da2041f8eb32c640ab302a8ec11a4b499824846d)
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The hand forged trigger guard and buttplate are exceptionally well done. The overall quality of this rifle is very good, in fact.
David and Mike, why don't you two bring that rifle to the Prairie State Longrifle Show, in Princeton, Illinois, Feb 25 & 26? There will be a number of people there with knowledge about Southern longrifles, including Jerry Noble, who has written four books on the subject.
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Thank you Curt. I have a friend in Countryside that I shoot Schuetzen rifles with that I occasionally stay with and help with work in his shop... Can you get me more information on the show...point me to a website or send a flyer, whatever?
Thanks,
David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
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David,
At the bottom of the list of forums here, there is one for "Show Announcements". There is a bit more about the show there. For more information, e-mail me at ilgunmkr@yahoo.com
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Thank you Curt. Eventually I will learn my way around this site! ;D
David
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Very nice piece. Very rare to see any forend moldings, much less a double molding, on an East Tennessee mountain rifle, especially a percussion era gun. I will have to look through the "K's" in Jerry Noble's books tonight.
Guy
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What about the possibility of it being "SK"? The reason I ask is that Jerry Noble lists one of the Kellers (Samuel) working in Blount County in the mid 1800s and sometimes using "oval" patchboxes and forend moldings and signed his rifles "SK". There were several other Kellers working there in that area, at least as early as 1825. It looks like the family moved to Tennessee from Virginia sometime between 1815 and 1825 since Samuel was born in Virginia in 1815.
Granted this box is not oval, but the forend moldings are rare on mountain rifles and I would say this gun falls at least into Samuel's timeframe. Ken, Roger, Ian or Bookie might know - are any of you familiar with the work of Samuel or any of the Kellers and does this rifle look like it could be one of theirs? I recall seeing only one Keller rifle before and it did not have as much of a sleek East Tennessee look as this gun does - the hardware was a bit different if I recall, but there are endless variations on this stuff and the known makers did vary their work.
If so that would put your rifle's origins as over by the Smokies.
Nice, well made mountain rifle. Thanks for posting it.
Guy
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Thanks Guy. Great insight.
Does anyone have any ideas about the lock? If it could be identified, perhaps the hunt could begin for a proper hammer and other parts to make it complete. Take a close look at the closeup picture which shows some engraving aft of the hammer pivot hole - forward of that has all been obliterated by corrosion.
Mike
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2590.jpg&hash=da2041f8eb32c640ab302a8ec11a4b499824846d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.zumatel.net%2Fmdgretz%2FIMG_2591.jpg&hash=b5c8558bda568b9ca17fd4e7beaccc5180ed1a69)
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That's a pretty generic hardware store lock. Finding original parts to rebuilt it will be a challenge as you would have to find another identical original lock in usable condition. With some fitting the internals and hammer from one of Chambers or L&R's percussion lock might be made to work. Easiest thing to do it to take the plate along to a dealer who stocks all of the current locks and see what can be made to work with some mix and matching.
Tom
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Some really great information, guys! I really appreciate all the help and comments.
David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
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I talked to Jerry Noble on the phone last night. He does not do computers, so I could not direct him to this thread. I described your rifle to him in detail, but did not mention any opinions that were already expressed. He immediately said "Samuel Keller".
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In 1993, I acquired a Samuel Keller rifle which remained in my collection for some years and this rifle does not strike me as being by the same hand. That Keller rifle, which I unfortunately no longer own, as well as a pistol I know of which I believe Keller also made, have long tapered tangs with an fleur de leis finial. My Keller rifle had a long patchbox, without sideplates, also with a fleur de leis finial. Robin Hale, as I recall, told me that was typical of Samuel Keller's work. Unlike Mike's rifle, it had a swell in the belly line just behind the rear pipe; a different style cheekpiece; and different hardware. Of course, I would be the last to say that over the course of a career southern gunsmiths typically made the same gun over and over. I know better than that. However, even if I was not familiar with a known Samuel Keller rifle, the tang and the incised lines of the forestock of Mike's rifle make me think more of western North Carolina than Tennessee. If someone had asked me how to attribute an East Tennessee rifle with the initials S.K., I would have said Samuel Keller, just as my friend Jerry did. Seeing pictures of it it is another matter. Just my thoughts . . . In any event, you have a nice rifle Mike.
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Um, Wayne, Mike was kind enough to take photos and post them for me, as I don't have a working digital camera at this time. Thanks for taking a look, and your comments. Everything posted from all of you guys has helped me with my knowledge base on this rifle.
David
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Sorry David. You do have a nice rifle with very pleasing architecture, whoever may have made it and wherever exactly it was made. Among my favorite longrifles, after years of collecting, are those made in Western North Carolina, Southern Valley of Virginia and Eastern Tennessee We could draw a 200 mile circle radiating from the confluence (if I can apply that term to land) of Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee and find that longrifles made in that region often share similarities. In some locales and in some makers we see very distinctive traits. But those may be the exception. That makes sense, because of the migratory pattern the settlers followed. These are all an irreplaceable part of our material heritage.
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Sounds like David definitely needs to take this rifle over to the gathering at Prairie State Longrifle Show in Princeton, Illinois, Feb 25th & 26th. I believe he is planning on it.
Mike
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I don't think anyone has mentioned this but to me that commode lid cap box does not go with this rifle. Any chance it was a late addition?
Dennis
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The cap box might have been a commercial piece rather than made by the gunsmith. However, the finial is more ornate than most of those common late capboxes you see - the finial looks more to me like something shaped by the gunmaker.
Some other unique things this gun - one is the barrel tang - which looks more like something you might expect on a Soddy gun than upper East Tennesse or the Blount County area. Perhaps the gun was re-breeched in its liftetime and the original tang inletting obliterated by this wide, long tang?
The other is the nosecap - it looks like it is open-ended to me, and held on with screws coming in at angles from the sides(?). That is atypical for east Tennessee as well.
Guy
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Guy, the nosecap is a piece of sheet iron bent around the stock. The end is filled with lead, which also flowed into a couple of holes at 4 and 8 o'clock on the sheet metal to hold it in place.
On another note, I got to digging around in a box of m/l parts and found a bag of lock parts that I had forgotten about. According to my daughter, since my hair has gone silver blond (not gray) I can now have blond moments instead of senior ones. At any rate, I had pulled the lockplate off of the rifle, and looking at the contents of the bag, found that the bridle and plate wear matching numbers, and the mainspring, sear spring, sear and a couple of screws also match up to the plate. I'll have to make a tumbler, or sleeve one to fit the 3/8" hole in the plate, and I have a blank hammer from that box that will work.
I pulled the barrel from the stock and ran some Kroil down the bore to help loosen any interior rust. After a couple of minutes, I noticed that it was leaking out of the breechplug thread area, and was able to pull the plug with finger pressure only. Not good! The drum appears to be in tight, but the nipple is battered and rusted in place. Oh, yeah, the bore is going to be very shootable!
Guy, the tang inletting shows no signs of having been redone. The inletting is shallow to match the tang, and there are no extra chisel marks that would indicate either a shorter or narrower tang had been there.
More later,
David
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I was at the Prairie States Longrifle Show last weekend, and got to meet a few folks from the forum...great show, nice people! Jerry Noble took one look at this rifle and told me Samuel Keller...no hesitation, no doubts about it. Thanks, again, guys for all the comments, suggestions, and help!
David
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David,
Glad you were able to get a good ID on the maker. Thanks for sharing the photos with us.
Ken
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Check out the pictures of this Samuel Keller rifle with the ones that I posted under Another who, when and where iron mounted rifle. Same box, guard, tang, forestock molding, etc.