AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 27, 2011, 02:54:53 AM
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A couple of years ago, someone posted pictures of a Sam Hawken rifle on this site, and I fell deeply in love with it. I surprised myself, because during the three years I worked for Don Robinson making what we called the Fraser River Hawken, I had a major part in making 186 of them, and I was certain that I'd never care to do another one. Well, that goes to show you...never say never!
When I was at Dixon's Fair in '09, I bought a breech plug, butt plate and trigger guard, ordered a barrel from LC Rice, and bought one of his rolled sheet metal ribs. I talked Tom Curran out of what I hoped would be a hard plain piece of maple, and what he sent was the hardest piece of wood I've ever worked (rock hard sugar maple from NY) but anything but plain. The half stock blank weighed 11 pounds when it arrived, so I assumed it was still wet. I weighed it every month for almost a year and it didn't lose any weight, so I knew it would be stable, but very heavy. By the time I took off everything that didn't look like the images of the rifle that I was emulating, the rifle weighed in at 10.78 pounds. It has a 1 1/8" - 1" x 36" long .62 cal Rice barrel and sheet metal underrib, soft soldered to the barrel, with 1/2" pipes silver soldered on prior, and rust blued. I have left all of the hardware polished to 180 grit abrasive, and cold blued and scrubbed off, because I eventually want to have it colour case hardened. The stock is sanded to 400 and scraped, and then stained with ferric nitrate, burnished, and finished with hot bees wax....I really like the finish, though I was shooting for a nicer colour - I wanted a little more red/brown, but that's what this piece of wood yielded.
There's a couple of things about the rifle that are interesting, for lack of a better word. The trigger guard is stretched 1/8" longer through the bow to better emulate the original. And the rear sight is a copy of the one on the rifle that Don Stith showed me at Dixon's in '07. My front sight uses a copper base and pure silver blade.
(https://i.ibb.co/hc8k0Zb/07-119-076-FL.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ypsD2Yt)
(https://i.ibb.co/cChXwWH/07-119-076.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HxTpCcs)
(https://i.ibb.co/LvPB0kF/100-1411.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TrTJwvf)
(https://i.ibb.co/k5m7y9q/100-1388.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbh7PR4)
(https://i.ibb.co/gPG5McM/100-1409.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WPQbWRW)
(https://i.ibb.co/2v3Wxy4/100-1386.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5rhGm6H)
(https://i.ibb.co/TLcHjVv/100-1407.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cLJNfGg)
(https://i.ibb.co/JHtQpd0/100-1401.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kXB1Dyk)
(https://i.ibb.co/mvZ4NFv/100-1390.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n3djP83)
(https://i.ibb.co/kJMjx6L/100-1400.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qCxKdFH)
(https://i.ibb.co/nn5hStQ/100-1389.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NmHwzbW)
(https://i.ibb.co/prj1Cp9/100-1446.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tPpHy5W)
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That is one beautiful rifle but my shoulder is turning black and blue from thinking about shooting that in .62. Can you compensate for range holding up into the slot on that rear sight? It looks very interesting.
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Absolutley great Taylor, Course what else would a body expect from your shop. Looks like a positive pitch on the stock that should help with the recoil somewhat. It's not like the ridiculous but plates that came with the old Sharon kits.
I know the Good Book says that "Thou shalt not covet", but your work makes it really tough to obey that one. Thanks for posting this one Taylor. Sets the bar a bit higher for the rest of us. Cheers Bob
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Absolutely first-rate! :o
Please let us know how you like the rear sight once you shoot her.
Skychief.
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That looks like at least $5000.00 worth of Hawken on on a scale of 0 to $6K ::)
Roger B.
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Thanks Paddlefoot and Bob.
The idea, for me at least, with that rear sight, is to file down the front sight so that I can use the tiny notch in the bottom of the opening for 25 - 50 yds., and then hopefully, centre the front sight in the hole for 100 yds. As the distance increases past 100 yds, the front sight moves up the opening. When the weather gets to the point that I don't need snowshoes to post a target past 50 yds., I'll report on the effectiveness of this sight system.
It is easy to get bad furniture for a Hawken project. Many of the butt plates especially, are terrible. Mine started out as the Bridger plate offered by TOW as it had almost perfect profile matching the image of the original. It is quite thick, and I did a lot of filing until I was happy. The same with the guard. Perhaps those that are available match some original, but not the one I was emulating. So I heated it red, and with a cross peen hammer, lengthened the bow. Thankfully, the casting had lots of "meat", so it wasn't difficult to get a guard whose profile matched the original's.
The hammer was a problem. Apart from sawing and filing one out of bar stock, there is nothing available that matched. When I scaled up the image to full size, I found that the hammer had a 1 7/8" throw. I bought a 1 7/8" hammer from Dixie that appeared in their tiny ancient illustration to be ok, but when it arrived, it was not. ...nearly $50 in the inventory drawer. The lock is a Roller, and the hammer that came with it might have worked on a 15/16" barrel, but certainly not on the 1 1/8" breech I was using. The hammer that Davis uses on their Hawken lock has exactly the same orientation in the tumbler square, and has a 1 3/4" throw, so with lots of filing, I got to to resemble the one in the image of the original. Still, I had to move the lock further forward so the hammer would align with the nipple, so I changed the geometry in the wrist/lock area slightly.
The sear bar in the Roller lock rests right level with the centre of the plate, not down at the bottom edge, as it does in other locks. Consequently, the triggers on the Ron Long trigger set that Tom Curran so generously gave me in '09, were not suitable. I didn'[t like the look of the rear trigger anyway, so I filed one out of a piece of annealed file that was a little over 5/16" thick. The result was a much better trigger that connected with the sear bar properly. I added steel to the top edge of the front trigger to achieve the same, and it worked out well.
So, if you have a particular or special rifle to make, don't be satisfied with mediocrity. Buy the best you can find, and change them to satisfy your need. Incidentally, Don Stith has some great authentic parts.
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She's a beaut! :P :P :P Thanks for sharing that with us.
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Thanks Skychief and Roger. One thing that was remarkable about this build, is the fact that there is no engraving or carving, apart from the panneled cheek piece. Consequently, the build went fairly quickly, and the finishing, even faster, compared to most of the last bunch of guns I've put together. Even so, there is something beautiful about the lines and bulk of a big plains rifle.
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Taylor,
I love your work. I to have had my rounds with making Hawken rifles but only six to date. This one you have here is a beauty. They have a grace that attracts the eye when done right. Who's breach did you use on that barrel?
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Thanks Dave. I don't know whose breech it is, but it was the only right hand 1 1/8" Hawken breech I could find at Dixon's, so I bought it so that LC could install it on my new barrel. I've done some filing around the snail and tang, and polished the nipple seat and fence. The breech extends farther out past the snail that any of the originals I've seen, which lengthens the rifle by about 1/4", but it's made properly, and breeched perfectly.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/Picture2-1.png)
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Just a wonderful rifle.
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Taylor, this is one beautiful rifle! My first (and to date, only) rifle is a Hawkins. I do have a question for you...how are the barrel wedge plates fastened? The photos look like staples of some sort.
Thanks for your photos and description as I always look forward to your posts.
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bjmac...the escutcheon plates are cut from .040" thick sheet steel. They are pierced for the slides, and drilled and countersunk for two wood screws, which I have slotted slightly deeper than factory, and then filed off flush with the wood. Prick punch carefully for the predrill holes, wax the screw threads and run them in. They look best with slots aligned with the axis of the rifle.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1393.jpg)
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Great Taylor. In my book, this is what a ten out of ten Hawken looks like.
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Beautiful rifle Sapergia :)
Runar
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Beautiful work, thanks for the pics.
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Thats a real beaut! Thanks for the inspiration. I'm just getting into my 'parts set' from many sources too, so your pics are helping a lot! Mine won't be quite as 'beefy' as yours, I hope!
If you don't mind me asking, what finish did you take the barrel to, before rust blueing? Is it just draw-filed? I like the low luster of it, seems to be a little less reflective.
I'm also figuring out the best way to get the buttplate profile I want, and something that 'looks right'. Like everyone else, I wouldn't mind seeing any and all detail pics you want to post (hint, hint).
Thanks again!
Jim
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You mentioned Don Stith showing you the sight design at Dixons. Is it his design or something he found on an original Hawkin? I notice your rear sight is farther forward than the one in the picture of the gun you were recreating, is that for your eyes or did the old rifles have that much variation in them?
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WOW ... Beautiful work !!!
I'm sure Sam Hawken would present you with a blue ribbon for excellence while fearing you as honest compettition. ;D
Compliments also in order regarding your skills as a photographer. Very nice background, lighting, and close-ups.
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Nice Taylor.
I have not built a Hawken in 20 years or so. But I have a friend you wants one so I suppose I will be doing one again.
For those who might be wondering about the indexed screws. Taylors treatment is correct.
This is the Jim Bridger rifle in Helena.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/DPhariss/ML%20Guns/DSC03011.jpg)
The original Hawken rifles were always nicely done. Be they plain or fancy. At least the Mountain Rifles.
Dan
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Taylor, Beautiful rifle and as always I admire the extra effort you put forth to achieve the level of detail all your builds have.
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Taylor,
I really love Hawken Rifles and this is truly an outstanding example!!! I have much to improve with my efforts and this is added inspiration.
Thanks for posting.
Ray
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The rear sight I made is taken from a series of photographs of the original sight on Don's rifle. I dovetailed it on the forward end of the hand position of the balance point. I considered the rear position, behind my hand, but the sight picture was cleaner forward. I have never seen images of an original with the rear sight that far forward...they are all behind the hand, and I'll submit, for much younger eyes.
The backdrop, which I've used many times before, is mountain goat pelt, and it seems to have a light absorbing property that lends itself to this purpose.
This rifle has the exact profile of the original, and it's chunkiness is attributed easily to the dimensions of the barrel, rib, and ramrod. When these dimensions are less, the overall thickness through the forend and the wrist will be less.
I appreciate all of your interest and favourable comments. Regarding photos, if there is a detail you'd like to see, I'm happy to provide an image from this work.
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Very Nice great work :)
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Taylor, when I said 'beefy' I was referring to weight, not proportion or any sort of clunkiness. I guess my eye doesn't see any clunkiness in your latest rendition, and I'd be durn pleased if mine looked remotely like yours.
My main intersest right now would be details of your tang/breech area, top view and both sides. My tang looks almost identical to yours, and I've been mulling over how best to treat that area. Looks like you've done a great job, as always. Thanks
JimB
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Jeez Taylor!
It turned 'browner" since I seen her last! Nicely done,as usual! Very purposeful rifle. To me, it's "funny' to see you build a capper. You want to tell 'um why you built a rifle like this? hehehe!
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Regarding photos, if there is a detail you'd like to see, I'm happy to provide an image from this work.
Another gorgeous and inspiring work, Taylor.
Since you are offering, I would like to see a front angled view of the rear sight, and some details of the front sight please. Also I would like to know the approximate diameter of the "circle" in the rear sight.
Thanks!
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Here you go, Taylor.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JGHawkens.jpg) Jim Gordon's museum at Glorieta, NM. Check that middle blonde Hawken below the horn, with the rear sight far forward. There are many variations of Hawkens. This is only about half of the originals in Jim Gordon's museum. I am more interested in your front sight. It is very close to the end of the barrel, and I haven't seen an original like that unless the barrel was cut off, and I believe I have seen that. I have a Green River Rifle Works .54 barrel that a (modern) gunsmith friend traded to me, with the 3/8" front sight slot milled starting 1/2" behind the muzzle. This is a 36" barrel, and I can't handle that sight location so am about to hacksaw this barrel to 32" and fit the sight 1 1/2" (or thereabouts) behind the muzzle. Why is your sight so close to the muzzle?
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Taylor, lovely and inspiring Hawken, inspiring enough to build another one. The last one had a Bill Large barrel so you know how long ago that was! My current build is a C. Hawken, go figure, HA HA!
I'm very interested in that rear sight though. Very interesting concept for aging eyes. Let us know how it works out. I wonder how the NMLRA would view that sight for primitive matches.
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I know how an elk or moose would view that sight! Thanks Taylor, you can just post pictures of that beauty from every angle and we'll keep looking. Very nicely done. Oh, The roller lock, is that a type of lock or a maker? Have not heard of that before.
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That's some sight, isn't it. Makes a dandy peep sight.
The rifle's OK for a Hawken gun. - HA! Sure hold s nicely - interesting finish, that beeswax.
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These first two images are of the original sight, and those that follow are of mine.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/DSCN2717.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/DSCN2719.jpg)
The hole was drilled with a 3/16" bit, and the cavity with a 3/8" ball end mill.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1417.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1418.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1419.jpg)
These last three are of the front sight. When I saw Louis Parker's Hawken rifle, I thought that that base shape was pretty cool, so I made one similar. The front sight is there by mistake. I scribed a line for the forward extremity of the sight, and left it. When I came back, I used it for the leading edge of the dovetail....oops. Give's me maximum sight radius though!
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1416.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1399.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1392.jpg)
The barrel was draw filed and polished to 180 grit prior to rust bluing.
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Taylor, wonderful rifle you made there. I am curious about what advantages there are in the design of this rear sight over the traditional Hawken buckhorn sight, in terms of sight picture and precision shooting potential.
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Thanks Mattole...I'm curious too. The sight was so neat and authentic, that I had to do one. If I don't like it, or can't make it work, I'll make another type. But I made the rifle to be competitive with Daryl...he's tough to beat at long range, or any range for that matter, and this rifle may give me a leg up. But the idea is to have a sight that is positive to get a clean sight picture at long range. The jury is still out though...
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I may have to make one too.
;D
Dan
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Thanks for the additional pics, Taylor. I have them archived for future reference now. I like many other am interested in a field report when you give the sights and your new beauty a workout.
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A real treasure Taylor! You've hit the nail dead center! I too can't wait to hear about your shooting match with your brother. Now I have to go back to my Hawken rifle and re-do a few little things....... :-[
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Here are two sights by Gemmer, similar to Hawken rifles, in Jim Gordon's museum.(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/GemmerSight.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/Gemmer2.jpg)
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Taylor and I both made and used sights similar to the bottom Gemmer sight - which is probably similar or almost identical to many Hawken sights as well as sights on other period rifles. Full buckhorns were popular.
When we used them, we were shooting mostly at the Squamish BC range back then - and mostly 50 to 100 yards, but shot considerbly on on the 'chief' at 325 yards range. I found the 'joint' of the two horns gave me a perfect zero for 325 yards, making hitting at that range much easier.
Holding 'windage' whether for height or actual wind, is a pain. It's much easier when you have a sight that allows dead-on holding. That is a major reason why my .69 does well at long range - express sight blades sighted for those ranges. There are several sights with flip-up blades in Track's catologe, btw.
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Thanks for the great shots of those original rifles Herb. It seems that it might be difficult to invent something new, and that using sights like this were nothing new either.
There was a question regarding the breech and tang. There is a considerable amount of work that has to go into both before you can think of inletting them into the stock blank. First, the breech must be fit to the barrel. Then the tang must be fit to the breech so that there is no gap or movement. I solder mine together at this stage. The tang never has the correct curve and must be bent cold to bring it to the shape of your blueprint. Do this bending before drilling it for the tang bolts, which should happen much latter, after all is inlet. It may also require bending left or right so that it centres on the wrist. Finally, the snail has some issues. The seat for the nipple may need to be milled, as was the case in this breech, so that it would bottom correctly. Then the inside surfaces of the snail had to be filed and polished for a clean look, and also to make cleaning fouling away easier. I've seen so may of these that were caked with fouling, and when I find it there, I also see it under the neck of the hammer, and in the cup. Not acceptable.
Here's a few pics of mine...
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1465.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1466.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1467.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1471.jpg)
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A couple lads got close to my question; but not quite. We assume the rifle has not yet been sighted in; but can't keep wondering abt that rear notch being so low and the frt sight so high. Don't shoot yourself in the boot.. ;D Do you expect and plan on a lot of frt sight filing. Do you have to squeeze the tar out of your stock side cheek to look through those sights ??? Be interesting to hear how the sighting in process goes. I always like to sight in a new gal. At least when they do as asked. ;D
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A beauty, very sharp and clean. Outstanding work.
Tim C.
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Taylor,
I want to jump on the bandwagon with this one. The way you carried it off without getting carried away is impressive. There's no place to hide with something like this, and it doesn't seem like you need to hide anything. I'm as eager as everyone else to see how that sight works out in practice -- my eyes aren't getting any younger. I think NMLRA rule is 1/4" opening at top of sight to be considered open sights -- it looks like you're close to that.
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Taylor, I think I was the one asking about tang/wrist pics. Your pics show it perfectly. Thanks again!
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Taylor, congratulation on a job well done, very fine gun. You know I love a Pa. Longrifle and they will always be my favorite with all it's carvings, engravings, brass an silver inlays, patchbox, etc. But what is it about a Hawken? their connection in time with the plains, Rocky Mtn., the Mtn. Men or just their simplicity, IMO they are great looking guns. I'm going to build a Hawken for my son when he graduates collage this spring. I have a 50cal. GRRW barrel I have never used. Thanks for the pic's Taylor. AL
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What amazes me about the wax/only finish - it doesn't feel like anything other than a fine oil finish. We'll have to see what happens with some wear, rain, etc. It will be easy to reapply -but????
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Roger, with this tapered barrel, and the notch in the rear sight only about 1/8" off the barrel, I did not know how much front sight I would need, so I left it very, very high. Also, I don't know if I will want to use the centre of the aperture for the point blank sight, or the notch. I'll be able to assess that as I file her down and the group moves up the board. I'd be happy with a front sight only 3/16" off the top flat...I like low sights.
Thanks again for your interest, y'all!
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Man, that's a beautiful Hawken, Taylor! Thanks for the pix.
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Dogcreek...it's been a pleasure!
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Taylor, I saw on another thread that you used ferric nitrate crystals and water for stain. What proportions did you use? I'm experimenting with this for my C. Hawken build.
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I don't think mine is a good example of AF staining...was looking for a lot more red and better curl definition...but oh well.
I just put a couple of ounces of water into an old pill bottle, and then kept adding and stirring the crystals 'til no more would dissolve. I slopped it on heavy with a cotton cloth wad held in hemostats and heated it with a powerful heat gun. I applied several times, each time burnishing it off with steel wool, but there was little change after the first application. I don't like LMF stains because though they give wonderful colour, the colour comes out right through the finish, onto your hands. The AF is right in the wood deeply, and is difficult to get down through it.
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This sample was mixed 50/50 with denatured alcohol on sugar maple. Has a bit of red in it. Did you neutralize the stain. I was thinking it unnecessary.
(https://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/j-rob1/stain008.jpg)
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Hey Kid have you tried some oil finish on it? I'm gonna order some crystals cause I got one close to ready to stain. I like what I see so far.
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It has a little Chambers oil on it.
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Taylor, As usual, your work is just beautiful!!
how much meat is left in the sides of the forestock. I'm getting ready to thin a GPR stock and would like to get it to the correct thickness. It's not going to look anything like your wonderful rifle, but would like to get that thickness down a bit.
Your pics taken without the white hide are much easier to see.
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Thanks Longcruise.
Thinning the forend on a GPR build is a little tricky, since there isn't much wood to work with. Start by rounding off the wood right next to the barrel channel until there is only about 1/16" or a little less of a flat along the channel. Then round the stock below the level of the escutcheon plates. What you are looking for is to take away the slab sidedness of the forend. Here's a picture of the GPR I did for my buddy Brian Dancey, and two of my Hawken. I don't measure the stock's thickness along the forend... but I'll bet there isn't much more than 1/8" from the side flat of the barrel.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/DSCN1635.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1400.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1467.jpg)
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Taylor, thanks for those pics and advice. Maybe should not take off as much as I was thinking.
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On this particular rifle, I have a barrel that is 1 1/8" at the breech tapering to 1" at the muzzle. The rib I used is a little over 1/4" thick and the rod hole is another 1/2". The forend has 1/8" below the rod hole, so you can see the forend is very deep. If I went too thin, I would end up with a forend that appeared to be slab-sided, and not have that very gentle roundedness that I was after. There aren't too many things on a rifle that are more out of place than having a slab-sided forend.
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Hey! Where is that Brian Dancy? He's probably got a "kit" or two stashed away that he could sell me! Brian, come out from under the mountain! (Hudson Bay Mtn.,LOL!!)
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Hi Taylor,
I really like this rifle. I am so glad you posted pictures of the rear sight.
you have to give us a review about how well it works after you get a chance to do some shooting.
I can see why you were inspired to build this rifle after seeing the original.
Great Job,
Marc
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I don't know how I missed this thread but that is one fine looking Hawken and in my favorite Cal.
Thanks for posting. Very nice Taylor.
Duane Bowman
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Marc, I think, from studying the images of the original, that it had a two piece brazed butt plate, and that would have made my rifle nicer...as it was I filed a casting of a Bridger plate to the approximate form of the original. I had two of those in my inventory, so could not justify buying one of yours for this build.
Again, I thank you all for your kind words.
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Taylor, It looks like you have re-created a pretty nice example of the original. Out of curiosity, what was it about the original that fired you up and inspired you? Architecture, a certain detail, etc. I am just curious, it is a nice rifle.
Mike
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All I can say is wow you do beautiful work thanks for sharing
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(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/07-119-076.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/07-119-076FL.jpg)
Someone on this site posted these two pictures in very high resolution, perhaps three years ago. Naturally, I saved them, because they represent to me, the epitome of the fully developed American hunting rifle, and because of the pure grace of the architecture. I love the deep crescent of the butt plate that is hard to replicate in today's castings, the beefy wrist and forend, and the sexy lock panels. As I said before, I have built close to two hundred Hawken styled rifles, and was surprised that I was turned on to do another one. I think that a lot of the appeal may come from the 200 postal match, in which Daryl pretty much overwhelmed us with his English sporter in .69 cal. I am hoping that this rifle will be the answer...a little competetive, you see.
Another reason for the build, is that I didn't have one. The images of the original reminded me of my very first Hawken rifle, also a .62 cal. that I shot so well in the mid 70's, and sold in a weak moment. Now, when I have a display at our local gun show, I can say, "...and this is what a Hawken rifle looks and feels like".
Incidentally, I made a second ramrod for it yesterday, out of osage orange, tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", mostly in the last 14". It weighs 1/4 oz. more than its hickory twin.
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How's that bo-dark rod for whip?
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Stiff as a..as a....very stiff!
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Taylor have you had any problems with the Osage rod? Were there any problems in making or using it? I have some Osage and have thought about making one for some of my guns.
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Making the rod was quite easy. A friend of mine who I've been kind of mentoring in his own Hawken build, gave me a faily straight grained piece of osage orange about 38" long, cut from a board, and had the edges routered off round. I put it in my lathe and turned it round to a little over 1/2" diameter. I measured the diameter of my hickory rod that fit the rifle every two inches from the rod tip, and then turned these dimensions on the osage piece. That gave me the same taper as the hickory rod. Now it was a simple matter of joining the sections into a smooth taper, and the wood is nice to work. I used Acer's great rod scraper, a sanding block and files to bring down those steps smoothly. I finished sanding it with 180 grit and then stained it with Fiebings dark brown leather dye. It took the stain better than the hickory, and came out a little darker. Lastly, I finished it with floor wax, which is my way of completing a ramrod. The osage rod is just a little less stiff than the hickory rod, but I anticipate no trouble with it. At 1/2" diameter, it's pretty robust.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1532.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1534.jpg)
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/TaylorMadeGuns/Hawken/100_1533.jpg)
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Taylor,
Thanks for the post! I am itching to make a Hawken after following this post.
Wetzel
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Judging from the number of hits this thread has received, I would say that there is still a lot of serious interest in Hawken rifles, and that's good. Their architecture and workmanship is to be emulated and continued...they are such fine rifles, and quite a departure from the longrifle. Everyone should have at least one.
I went back to page three and replaced the images of the sights that had been deleted...sorry about that. I moved them around in the albums at Photobucket, and poof - they disappeared.
I want to say thanks to everyone for their kind critique. I will start a new thread discussing the pro's and con's of that rear sight, when I am able to get out and test it. I have high hopes for it...
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Great job Taylor! and for those who would like to see the large scale images he worked from click the links - this Hawken was sold by JC Devine Auctions (no longer in business) and was from the James Serven collection - IIRC it sold for $70,000.00 US
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-jc-devine_01.jpg
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-jc-devine_02.jpg
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-jc-devine_03.jpg
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Taylor, I'm a newbie here and I just wanted to say that I really like your rifles. I have a thing for Hawkens and I saw an old post on a fullstock flint Hawken that you built awhile back and I thought it was one of the coolest rifles I have seen. And this one is just as good. Love the sight by the way.I stumbled through a Don Stith half stock kit last year and learned alot but still have a long way to go. Thanks for sharing and setting the bar high. It gives me somethine to shoot for in a build. Dew
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Taylor,
As usual, excellent work! I'm sure there was a tremendous amount of work that went into the rifle that doesn't meet the eye. Very clean and crisp! Thanks for posting the pics and sharing.
Ed
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Thanks Chuck, Dew and Ed. Chuck, the left and right profile pics are the same as the ones I downloaded from this site several years ago. And the additional one of the barrel stamp is great to have as well.
I wonder if this is the same rifle - from the James Serven collection, that was tested and examined so thoroughly in Baird's first Hawken book. It sure is in good shape. Baird spoke of a coning of the muzzle, where the actual bore didn't start for about two inches into the bore. It would be cool to see a picture of the muzzle. When I scaled up the images on my computer, I measured the ramrod at 1/2". If I was out at all, it would still have been at least 7/16". I scaled my rifle around a 36" x 1 1/8" tapered to 1"x .62 cal. Rice barrel. The original I suspect was just a hair under that, and likely around .52 cal, as was the standard. Great stuff!!
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The only coning I recall discussed in "Hawken Rifles" was the 50 caliber rifle TK Dawson owned with the repaired wrist marked Hoffman and Campbell. The book is downstairs and I too lazy too make the trip down.
The coning was very slight, .002-.003 larger at the muzzle, IIRC. I was reading this again a couple of months ago to see the contrast in how this rifle was done and how the modern makers are doing it.
Dan
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Their architecture and workmanship is to be emulated and continued...they are such fine rifles, and quite a departure from the longrifle. Everyone should have at least one.
I did build a TOW kit back when they first came out with curly maple stocks.
Sold my saddle and bought a Hawken kit gun. ;) You have ME thinking Mr. Taylor.
Don't you think you can see just a small pinch of longrifle In a Hawken?
English sporter of the same time frame but both different but beautiful with the
same ends???? Just a lose thought.
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Taylor, considering your vast experience with the Hawken, have you built a full stock version? If so, would you be kind enough to post pictures and particulars? The full stock is what my next build is going to be in .50 cal. Thanks'
BJ
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Notgreg - I see the Maryland roots of the Hawken bros in the shape of the buttstock. I see the English sporting rifle in the standing breech and hooked plug with the double captured key forend. But this rifle is an entity unto itself as far as I am concerned. Even compared to other plains and western mountain rifles, it stands alone. It feels right to have another one in my rack.
Bjmac - I've never built a percussion fullstocked rifle, only flintlocks. So I have no images of contemporary fullstocked percussion rifles, though there are many originals to study. In the last few years, I've only built two fullstocked Hawkens, one of which was from Don Stith's part's set, the other has my own stock and hardware from TOW. I have photos of both of those.
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Come on Taylor,show 'em "Hatchet Jackhandles" full stock. It's a thing of beauty also.(for these MTN Man type) Most of us got started using a Hawken. My first was a TC Big Bore,yikes, then a Uberti(close to correct), then a Fraser River Hawken which in my mind was very close to being correct. The FRH was made by Taylor(#66) and I bought it used knowingly with a wrung barrel. I had Taylor rebarrel this rifle with two Don Getz barrels.(that was when Don ramrodded the Getz Barrel Company.) One a fifty and the other a fifty eight. My fathers's friend, Don Robinson, owned the shop that Taylor worked at and produced these fine rifles.
Yesterday I held Taylor's new rifle and it points really nice,a little heavy for me, but very easy to mount and she holds perfectly. Watch out Daryls!
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http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8848.0 This link should take you to the J & S Hawken I built for a local shooting buddy.
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Thank you for that link. I really enjoyed seeing that build and reading about it. In reading through your posts I can see that people really have alot of respect for the guns you build, and I do as well. Your quality of work is truly inspirational and I hope to be able to achieve that kind of quality someday. I have never built a true Hawken, but am really smitten with the idea. I am a little intimidated from reading that a Hawken is more complex than a standard longrifle. What are some of the more complex issues that must be handled when building a Hawken gun, Halfstock or Fullstock? I was just hoping to get an idea before jumping in. Thanks again for your posts, descriptions, opinions, and tips.
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Taylor, that sure is a great looking rifle and while we are on the suject a question on Hawken tang shapes and inleting same if I may. Jim Gordons book shows many early J&S Hawken rifles and some of them have a step back shape to the tang, will inletting this type require any special care so as not to get any gaps around the step back section? I hope I'm using the right terminalogy here. Smylee
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@!*% Taylor! I was content to use a cast open sight when I rebarrel my fullstock flint Hawken instead of my "closed" buckhorn from the 50 cal barrel. After seeing your new sight I know I won't like the open sight. I guess I'll use it to work up a good accuracy load in the new 58 cal Rice barrel, then figure the trajectory to place your notch in the bottom on at 25 meters, center of the peep at 50, & between the top at 100. Nice looking sight by the way (the rifle's pretty cool too! ;) ).
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Wetzel, your first job is to create a profile blueprint of the rifle. Start by drawing the barrel, and then add the other parts in full scale.
The commercial breeches that are available often have the wrong profile. The standing breech on a Hawken should begin to bend downward immediately behind the plug. When you do this, you will now have to change the curve of the rest of the tang to match your drawing. Watch for any sideways bending while you are at it. Having fit the tang to the plug, and the plug to the barrel, I solder the two together with soft solder. Then I can turn the barrel up-side-down to see it there is any sideways bending to the tang. I straightened out mine using Ken Guys system with three rods in the vise, to put the pressure where it was needed...worked like a hot @!*%. These tangs can be easily bent cold.
The tang gets soldered to the plug after you've inlet the barrel into your stock...then the whole tang goes in, lined up neatly by the barrel channel. Remember that as you go down, the tang will also go rearward too, a little. With that hour-glass swamp in the tang, this can result in gaps if you are not careful. Available castings have draft cast right into them, so I clean them up with a file and abrasive to finished polish right before I inlet them. You don't want to be taking off metal after the inlet is perfect.
Once you have the barrel and tang successfully inlet, you can congratulate yourself, because the rest of the build is pretty straight forward. I can't think of any other "issues" that might cause problems. But if you have a question, I'll be pleased to try to answer it.
Smylee, I really like those stepped tangs too, and have never inlet one. They'd be similar to inletting the tang on a Southern Mountain rifle, I'm thinking. Again, remember that as you go further down into the wrist, you will also be going toward the butt plate. It may be as much as 1/16" so take that into consideration when you file the draft into the edges of the tang. When inletting use a transfer colour and only cut away that which is on the back edges of the inlet.. Remember that if you took away all of the colour, you would have a gap. Ideally, you want to have solid colour on the inlet when you have it all the way down. Take you time and keep chisels shaving sharp.
Harry, I'm looking forward to trying out this new sight. I filed mine out of a piece of 3/4" square stock. Drill the 3/16" hole first, then the ball mill to recess the front, then hacksaw and file. I'll bring it to Heffley, and we can use it in the sillouette match. I won a 200 yard match with my first Hawken, years ago at Thompson Mt. shooting against the cartridge guys. It was a .62 cal as well.
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Harry, I'm looking forward to trying out this new sight. I filed mine out of a piece of 3/4" square stock. Drill the 3/16" hole first, then the ball mill to recess the front, then hacksaw and file. I'll bring it to Heffley, and we can use it in the sillouette match. I won a 200 yard match with my first Hawken, years ago at Thompson Mt. shooting against the cartridge guys. It was a .62 cal as well.
I should have known that was you at Thompson Mountain Taylor! I heard that story way back when... you ruffled a LOT of feathers that day! ;) I like your design on this sight Taylor & plan to do my own version next week when I finally get out to the shop (I know, I said I'd be out there this week, but I hadn't planned on this nasty flu!). I'll give you a call soon for another chat.
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I had wondered what parts were difficult and figured it was the tang business, but wasn't sure. Your directions make a lot of sense, thank you for taking the time. I'll bet some feathers were ruffled against the cartridge boys:)
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Thanks for that tip Taylor. The gun i want to come close to replicating is an early J&S Hawken with that type tang and early style breech and lock plate. It will also have an engraved patch box. But for me the stepback tang will probably be the most taxing of the build jobs as I havent done one like that before. Thanks again. Smylee
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Taylor- Beautiful Rifle! The pictures of the original you put up was of a rifle formally in the Serven collection if I am remembering correctly what you said. If you recall the photographs of seven rifles from that collection in Baird's book "Hawken Rifles- The Mountain Man's Choice", is this not the same rifle that was the middle rifle in those pictures? If so, then that is the rifle I chose to scale up from the pictures to build one for myself somewhere around 1980. I used a GRRW .54 caliber X 1-1/8" X 34" straight barrel. Just wondering if that is the same rifle.
Be Well,
Bill ridout
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Bill, I've looked at that pair of photos hundreds of times over the past many years. I just checked it again, and sure enough, that rifle is there. But it is the second from the top on the first (lock side) page, and second from the bottom on the opposing page. Your build would have been close to the original in it's barrel choice...the original is .52 cal I believe, and has a 35" barrel slightly under 1 1/8" at the breech.
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Okay. I was torn between the second rifle in the photo and the fourth (middle) one. settled on the one I did because when I blew that photo up to life size, the middle one was clearer. My rifle is a real shooter. Through the years, it has accounted for 37 deer and has won me many prizes at matches. I've been shooting it pretty regularly fo thirty years and it shoots as good today as ever.
You are right, it's hard to stay away from the Hawken rifles. They use up a lot more powder and lead than the smaller calibers, but they just feel right when you hold them.
Thanks for responding,
Bill
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Can the images on this thread be revived?
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Can the images on this thread be revived?
I did what I could.
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Thanks Rich. It was so nice to see posts of our friends who now exist in our hearts. :)
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The http must be changed to https to show the images.
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Thank you! I just wanted to see a picture of that unique rear sight, but the whole rifle is a thing of beauty. I hope it shot as well as Daryl's English sporting rifle.
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Absolutely beautiful rifle Taylor!
Tony
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Thank you! I just wanted to see a picture of that unique rear sight, but the whole rifle is a thing of beauty. I hope it shot as well as Daryl's English sporting rifle.
LOL, not quite during the actual match scores, however on that same day we both, when warming up for the 200yard match, shot 2 1/2", 5 shot groups from the bench, at 200 yards.
That was MOST enjoyable. Taylor found this .62 calibre rifle, shot best with 127gr. 2F of GOEX powder (later measured the "throw") He did place second in that contest. There was
quite a number of positive posts about it, but Taylor and I were the only ones to submit targets, other than "candle snuffer" the ALR member who put the match on.
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I have restored a collection of pictures that were missing from the attached link above...the full stock Don Stith rifle.
I also went back and replaced all of the pictures that Photobucket ruined by placing their phantom logo over.
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Taylor, thanks for doing that! I bet you never thought you'd be maintaining a 11 year-old post. ;D
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Yes, I was really surprised to see it up front again, and it brought back lots of good memories, and some sour ones involving Photobucket.
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Taylor, thanks for doing that! I bet you never thought you'd be maintaining a 11 year-old post. ;D
It's been THAT long - WOW!
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Taylor, I am gathering parts for a full stock Hawken rifle and was looking through some pictures of one of your builds. I’m having trouble finding an appropriate nose cap. Do you have any recommendations that you could share?
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(https://i.ibb.co/8MXhsjR/DSCN6420.jpg)
This is the one Taylor made for this full stock Hawken build.
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Thank you Daryl, that one seems to be round where the commercial ones I’ve seen are more oval shaped. I like the round better. Thanks
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Thank you Daryl, that one seems to be round where the commercial ones I’ve seen are more oval shaped. I like the round better. Thanks
There are some rounded ones available through suppliers, I just can't remember where I saw them. It may have been muzzleloader builder supply, or muzzleloading emporium.
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I made mine using examples of originals from Jim Gordon's fine book, and from one Don Stith posted here several years ago. It is one piece steel.
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Thanks to all for the photos provided in this thread, especially those close-ups of the snail and tang provided by Taylor.
Am working on a kit, and somehow knew mine wasn't looking right. Your photos show the details I need to make this a better build (at least until my reference books arrive; Gordon's 3-book series and Wilson's The Peacemakers are en route!).
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A great observation about the snail area of Hawken breeches as received! One of the issues is that the nipple sometimes doesn't seat well into its hole in the snail, and there isn't enough room around it to get a wrench. And if you look at pictures of originals, almost all of them have decorative filing that amplifies the grace of the snail. These improvements are easy to do, but the builder must be aware of the need and what was done in the past. Thanks for mentioning it, Troutbum.
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Taylor, what a beautiful rifle you built. The lines and craftsmanship are just first class.
Cheers Richard
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Beautiful work. The detailed explanations were very interesting. We don't see them that often.