AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: 4ster on March 22, 2011, 06:14:58 AM
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Hi,
I am in the process of putting together a Ferguson from a Riffle Shoppe kit. This is my first long rifle build. I would appreciate insight from other Ferguson builders.
1) I have the worked the stock so it fits the barrel, I am to the point where I am installing the barrel underlugs. The Rifle Shoppe says that the underlugs should be silver soldered once they are in position. Is this necessary? It seems that a good fitting dovetail would be more than adequate. I've silver soldered a couple of things in this build, but they have been small, replaceable parts. I am worrying about the amount of heat I would have to apply to the barrel to get solder to flow in the joint.
2) What size screw did you use to attach the lock to the barrel? My kit did not come with this screw and it is not in the plans.
3) What did you do to your lock? My kit was ordered with an assembled lock. It looks like the internal parts and the frizzen have been hardened appropriately, the springs are tempered. The lock does ignite a priming charge in the pan. The lock plate, dog and jaw need polishing. On an original, were these parts case hardened?
Thats it for now. I'll have some more questions about placement of the barrel keys in the stock when I get to that step. But for now I am trying not to worry about that.
Thanks,
Steve
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There's nothing like starting with a complicated project! If you have enough wall thickness on the barrel there's no reason the lugs couldn't be dovetailed in. Alternatively you can sweat them onto the barrel with any good solder or Brownell's force 44 solder which is pretty high strength. High temperature silver soldering can result in a scaled bore which is not a great thing. I have no idea how the originals were done. You can be sure that the original locks were polished and case hardened. An 8-32 screw will hold any lock in that is well fit to the lock mortise.
Tom
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Thanks for the reply Tom.
I should have made it clear that the barrel came with dovetails cut for underlugs. It surprises me that the kit maker states that they should be silver soldered too. Thanks for the warning about bore scaling.
The Ferguson is unique in that only one screw attaches the lock to to barrel. 8-32 seems under-engineered since it does not have any partners. Going to the hardware store and picking up an import screw with zinc plating is out of the question. Who online has a good selection of gun screws?
Steve
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Hi 4ster,
I built the Ferguson shown below from TRS parts but I used an English walnut blank, not the TRS precarved stock. The barrel is sufficiently thick to use dovetails for the lugs and rear sight. The front sight and bayonet lug were brazed on the originals. I used low temperature solder (Brownell's Hi-Force 44) on mine. Don't worry about soldering the underlugs as long as they fit tightly in the dovetails. If not, use the low temp solder like HF-44. The lockplate should be hardened but TRS uses steel with sufficient carbon so you can simply heat and quench it. However, I recommend pack hardening (case hardening) because the metal surface is not exposed to air while heating and will not scale. That is important because you don't want to damage the cast-in engraving. Be careful when polishing the plate that you don't ruin the engraving. Use fine stones lubricated with oil and don't worry about a high polish unless you are going to turn the gun into a high-end civilian version. In that case, polish away and get rid of the markings, then engrave your own design. For an ordnance gun Just get the rough cast surface smoothed down. An 8-32 or 10-32 screw is fine. It is not "under engineered" . There is little stress on the screw if you inlet the lock properly. I use the screw blanks sold by Brownell but I file off the slot (which is too wide) and cut my own narrow slots.
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleLargeViewLockSide.jpg)
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleBreech.jpg)
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleLockplate.jpg)
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Thanks for the tips!
Steve
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Quite a few years ago, I built TRS's Ferguson rifle and used their English walnut stock. Though the wood was great to work, it was pretty uninteresting for colour and figure. I built what you might call an officer's model, or civilian rifle. There was no screw in my set, just as you describe, but I didn't have the plans, so I had to kind of figure it out on my own. I made a fillister head 10 x 32 screw just as smart dog has shown.
The underlugs don't need solder unless your fit is poor. High temperature silver solder is not good here, for reasons already mentioned and others.
I polished and engraved my lock, and yes, some of the engraving needed to be recut. Original locks and hardware would have been pack hardened. I don't have those facilities, so I don't do that to my locks - yet! I'll see if I can find a pic of my rifle to post.
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Fergusson/DSC03966.jpg)
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If you think they should be soldered try low temp reg solder.
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If you think they should be soldered try low temp reg solder.
paste solder is what your looking for low temp stuff
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id like to build a ferguson one day maybe affter the double and a few others
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How do you load it?
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The Ferguson is a breach loader. A fast thread plug runs vertically in the breach and is attached to the trigger guard which acts as a crank to unscrew the plug. The plug is unscrewed one turn and a ball then the powder inserted in the breach. Screw the plug closed and you are ready to prime.
At least that is the theory, I've never done it in practice.
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Hi,
The Ferguson system works quite well when properly lubed, the right ball size is used, and the powder load worked out. It will shoot many shots before needing cleaning and is quite accurate. 4ster, one thing to think about is that all ordnance Fergusons and civilian versions that were used frequently are broken through the lock area. The stock around the screw breech is very weak, which was the major design flaw of the Ferguson. On my rifle, I bedded the breech area and lock mortice with Acraglas. Since I use my rifle a lot, I was not concerned about historical correctness and you cannot see the bedding anyway. I wanted to protect my expensive investment in time and money.
dave
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Dave,
Thanks for the info. You're right, there is not much stock left after mating the stock to the barrel. I'll research Acraglas. I think nearly all of the surviving examples have cracks in the lock area.
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Hi 4ster,
Good luck with your project. Taylor and Dave Crisalli (members of this board) built beautiful Ferguson rifles. Hopefully, they will chime in if you have questions and of course I will help where I can. I love shooting my Ferguson. It is the most enjoyable gun that I own. I also grew up near the Morristown Historical Museum in NJ and was infatuated with the Ferguson since I was 10 years old. It was a lifelong dream to build and shoot one. I am also a Scot so Paddy is a hero of mine.
dave
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Dave,
Thanks for the info. You're right, there is not much stock left after mating the stock to the barrel. I'll research Acraglas. I think nearly all of the surviving examples have cracks in the lock area.
all theres only 2 that i know of
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Dewit Bailey's book on English Flintlock rifles also has "Ferguson Like" guns made before and after Ferguson's patent. I think I remembered that many stocks of those screw breach guns he describes have problems in the lock area. Both of the actual Fergusons in his book are broken there.
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There is no way one can put a hole of the size necessary for the breech screw in a stock and not have it be weak there unless it's made out of kevlar or carbon reinforced polymer! Just don't fall on it.
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Hi Camer2009,
There are only 2 enlisted men's ordnance rifles known to exist. However, there are quite a few higher-end officer and civilian rifles in collections. Several made for the East India Company also exist. Most that showed heavy use are broken through the breech area. If any of you ever visit the museum at Washington's Crossing State Park in NJ, there is a nice civilian Ferguson made by Durs Egg on display. I think it is part of the Kjell Swann collection at the museum.
dave
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So, back to questions about building. The underlugs are now installed on the barrel. :D They were tapped in with a friction fit and I don't think I need to solder them in place, as they are tight.
The Ferguson uses underlugs with barrel keys to secure the stock to the barrel. The kit come with a roughed out stock with most of the shaping done, just final fitting is necessary. For the most part this is a good thing but it makes it a bugger to lay out where to cut on the stock for the keys. Almost nothing is square. So I can't just lay the stock in a drill press and know that I am getting perfect 90 degree holes when hogging out material in the mortise.
I am wondering what other Rifle Shoppe Ferguson builders did to locate and align the mortices for the barrel keys.
Since I need to make the mortices a number of times I am thinking of making a jig. I wanted to attach a drawing here but so far I can't figure out how to post pictures.
Steve
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4ster,
I built the pictured Ferguson from TRS parts as well, including a roughed out stock. As is usually the case, roughed out stocks are often overly "roughed out" in too many areas. This one turned out to be salvageable, but the process was not easy. Like you, I had to install the keys on a shaped stock with no flat surfaces or reference planes. I used a drill press vise mounted on an X -Y table and a relatively good drill press. I clamped the barrel alone in the vise, top against the back (immovable) jaw and marked the barrel with a marker (witness marks) on either side of the vise. I then moved the x - Y table to center a 1/16 inch drill in the lug slot. Without moving the table, I opened the vise, removed the barrel, and put the barrel back in the stock. The barrel and stock were now placed back in the vise using the witness marks. The level and barrel rotation were done by eyeball for both the barrel and the barrel / stock placement in the vise. With the barrel / stock back in the vise, I ran the drill all the way through the stock and the center of the lug slot. Then, moving the vise left and right of the first center hole, by slightly more than 1/16 inch, I drilled two more holes through the stock. With these three starter holes for each key, I finished the key slots with cut down saw blades and a very narrow chisel. (I had not learned the burning trick yet, otherwise, I would have used that process.) It was a little bit of trouble, but not bad and it came out well.
Good luck with the build. The rifle is great fun to shoot.
Dave C
P.S. I used a 10-32 screw to hold the lock in place.
(https://preview.ibb.co/iVJeHH/My_Ferguson_18.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cp4arc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eiFRxH/My_Ferguson_13.jpg) (http://ibb.co/g29mxH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hGDDcH/My_Ferguson_15.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kqXTBc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/epVRxH/My_Ferguson_10.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gWYeHH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hgoDcH/My_Ferguson_11.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bHjmxH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jd5Frc/My_Ferguson_12.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bAYPjx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kh8qPx/My_Ferguson_14.jpg) (http://ibb.co/c7t1Wc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iT81Wc/My_Ferguson_6.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bttDcH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jXBc4x/My_Ferguson_9.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iOjx4x)
(https://preview.ibb.co/d2kgWc/My_Ferguson_8.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mW0Frc)
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Dave,
Absolutely beautiful work.
Thanks for the procedure for locating the key mortises. That is better than the one I was thinking of.
I purchased an assembled lock. The springs, tumbler parts and frizzen look like they have been heat treated and/or hardened appropriately and the lock fires. I just got done with an initial clean up of the lock plate and cock assembly. Other than polishing, did you do anything to these parts? I've never case hardened anything before but I have an acquaintance that may help.
Steve
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Steve,
I heat treated the springs and hardened the frizzen, trigger, and internal lock parts, but did not harden the plate or cock. Having previously pack hardened a couple of other lock plates, I had had warping problems and did not want to mess up the Ferguson plate until I got the process down.
If you have not done a search on the Ferguson on this site, I would recommend that you do so. We have had several discussions on building and shooting this type of rifle. There are also some good discussions on hardening TRS parts in general.
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Dave,
Discovering this site is one of the reasons that I started work on my kit. It had been sitting in a closet for nearly 6 years. I was a little intimidated by all the parts and I had no instructions. And I was a little busier then.
Being able to read other's building and shooting experiences with the search feature got me going. When I bought the kit there was not as much available information. (TRS advised I get a .65 cal ball mould and the consensus on the net was that you might get off 5 shots before the gun was jammed from fouling.)
Thanks to all Ferguson builders who have posted here in the past. I have read, and re-read every post I can find. If I ask a question that has ben answered before, I apologize.
Steve
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I was going to drill the vent on the Fergie today.... but something told me to stop and get some advice.
The instructions I have: 1) Drill a 3/32 hole centered on a line extending across the top of the pan. 2) Make a groove with a triangular file on the loading (vertical screw) plug from where the vent contacts the plug to the milled face on the plug.
3/32 seems like a really big vent hole to me. Does the vent notch in the loading plug's threads seem right? If so, how deep a groove did you cut?
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4str,
I installed a vent liner with a 1/16" vent. I personally think 3/32 is way too big. I placed the vent so that it was just slightly forward of the milled flat on the breech face. No need to file any sort of groove in the vertical breech plug.
Dave C
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Hi 4str,
I did the same as Dave Crisalli. I installed a white lightning vent liner. The Ferguson barrel has thick steel at the breech so the vent hole is long. I remember reading some posts on an internet site a few years ago in which owners of Narragansett Ferguson's complained that ignition was slow. There are many possible reasons for that but a long deep vent hole could be one. That also may be why your instructions call for a relatively large hole. It is also possible that the originals were coned from the inside, although I never read any mention of it. Anyway, Dave and I installed liners and out guns are a joy to shoot.
dave
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Thanks for the help guys! I just put an order in to Track of the Wolf for a vent liner, new tap and chamfer bit.
To avoid engaging with and filing a groove in the fast thread breach plug the vent hole will have a slight forward angle. I assume once the vent liner is installed the portion of the liner that is not flat with the barrel will be filed flush, correct?
Steve
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Hi 4ster,
Yes. Leave some extra metal on the liner above the surface of the barrel so you can file it flush on a slight angle. The angle should be very small.
dave
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Did anyone else have problems with the sear arm not being long enough?
The Ferguson breach is wider than a normal muzzle loader because of the breach screw, and when I cut the mortise for the trigger I discovered that the sear doesn't quite reach half way into the mortise. I can only inlet the lock a little bit more before the main spring starts to contact the barrel - and it isn't enough.
The only solution I can think of is to weld or silver solder an extension on the tip of the sear. Is that going to cause a problem?
Steve
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Wish TRS would come up with a smaller 'sport' Ferguson action, say in .54 cal. It would allow a thinner profile through the breech section.
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Wish TRS would come up with a smaller 'sport' Ferguson action, say in .54 cal. It would allow a thinner profile through the breech section.
You would probably be a very old man before that happened. However, with a small machine shop, a welding torching, a large amount of will power and enough bourbon you could replicate this:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd186%2FDD832%2F30889x10.jpg&hash=3c0dc8419e4bdd35a32a7beedeb8b3c6c1a9c0b7)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd186%2FDD832%2F30889x15.jpg&hash=e84be8cf93ae9f9ea4efb78f833f431baddee51c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd186%2FDD832%2F30889x25.jpg&hash=e598ec1bf672d797c04ee73d5b122da4c045d2a0)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd186%2FDD832%2F30889x30.jpg&hash=9cc8919ac4609aa10b7c54a30953a23c4963d895)
But then you have to be a little insane too. Mike
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Hi 4str,
I had exactly the same problem and I ended up making a new sear with a longer bar. It is not hard to do. I think there might be shrinkage during molding that causes the cast part to be a little smaller than the original. The lock and breech mechanism determine the width of the lock section so it is not a case of not inletting the lock or locating the trigger plate properly. I don't remember if the trigger slot is already cut in the trigger plate. If it isn't, cut the slot off center toward the lock so the trigger engages the sear closer to the plate. I made a new sear because the sear that came with the parts set was a tiny bit too narrow and the fit between the lock plate and the bridle had a little slop. That caused the trigger pull to be spongy because the trigger hit the sear near the tip of the sear bar which gave it a lot of leverage to magnify the loose fit of the sear on the lockplate. To solve the problem, I made a new bigger sear and I lap fitted it between the plate and the bridle. The fit was very precise, which eliminated the sponginess. It also had a longer bar so that the trigger no longer hit it at the tip. The trigger pull is crisp and light.
dave
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Gunnermike, that is one nice gun. Its a good thing I don't own it, I would want to shoot it!
Dave, thanks for confirming I am not crazy.
The trigger plate is offset, the slot was in the plate. I wish TRS would provide at least a rudimentary set of instructions because I *may* have tried to work the slot closer to the centerline of the lock plate when I was doing the finish work to the part. It needed to be widened to fit the trigger and I didn't understand that the offset trigger slot was to compensate for the width of the stock behind the breach. Oh well. The slot is still more on the lock side of the trigger plate and will have to do.
I will check for play in the sear and decide what to do from there. If the rest of the sear is OK I think I will scarf an extension and silver solder it. Or I may just weld it with my wire feed. Not historically correct, but know one will know, right? ;-)
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I had a little problem getting the vent hole liner installed and am fishing for tips.
I drilled the vent at a slight angle to get the vent slightly forward of the vertical breach screw. The angle is so slight that only about half of the vent is forward of the milled face in the breach screw, which is fine because the hole was drilled 7/32 for a 1/4X32 vent liner. There is lots of space for powder to get down to the touch hole.
The trouble I am having is the counter sink I purchased with the vent liner is not creating an evenly chamfered edge around the hole because of the angle of the vent. The vent liner and counter sink seem to be designed so that the bevel on the liner gets deformed into the mild chamfer of the counter sink. The counter sink is labeled "90 degree countersink 1/4, for White Lightnin' touch hole liners". Since I drilled the vent hole at an angle I think that the counter sink can't properly create the correct shape. Track of the Wolf does not seem to offer a counter sink other than the 90 degree version. Is there another countersink for angled vents?
stopped work on the vent hole today before I got the chamfer too deep, figuring I need to step back and think about the problem.
On a completely different subject I am close to the point of applying a finish to the stock. I figure since this is a military weapon the historical finish would be a simple rubbed in oil. A friend who has done a couple of modern rifle stocks recommended boiled linseed oil. Looking at the various Ferguson threads I haven't been able to tease out specifics of how other builders have finished their stocks. I read different opinions of the quality of boiled linseed oil at my local hardware store. Some have said that is the worst thing to put on the stock, others that is is just fine.
Any other recommendations for finishing? It is my intension that this rifle will be a shooter, and while I am trying to do the best build I can this is my first gun and I have had to do a lot of learning (or put another way, it is not quite up to the great examples displayed in this thread). I am aiming at a nearly historically correct finish that is practical to maintain as a shooter.
Steve
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Steve, based on my limited experience observing English sporting rifles, an oil-base varnish would be a better choice. Hopefully a English military rifle expert can chime in. I'm no fan of boiled linseed oil finishes.
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I was thinking cold pressed linseed oil and gum turpentine would be close to historically correct and a tuff finish as well.
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Just an update, the rifle is getting close to final assembly and its first firing.
For future builders looking at this thread I want to post a warning about angling a WL vent liner. They are intended to be installed 90 degrees to the barrel, be sure you know what you are up to if you angle the vent liner. If I was doing it again I would install the vent at 90. The larger hole made for the liner might open to the power chamber without an angle. If not, a much smaller groove would have to be cut in the breech screw. I still think a vent liner is a good idea on a Ferguson for reasons stated earlier in this thread.
Because I drilled the vent hole at an angle, the countersink "walked" and would not center over the hole. You don't counter sink the WL liner very much so there is not a lot of room for a mistake. I decided my drill press is not tight enough to fix my mistake. The barrel is now with a friend who owns a machine shop.
While the barrel is in the shop I have mostly finished work on the other parts. Not having the barrel is forcing me to take my time with the stock finish. Otherwise I would be tempted to put it all together and take it out back of the wood shed. I will post a few pictures when it is all together.
Steve
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King's Mountain National Military Park is on the North Carolina/South Carolina border and just a few miles off of the Interstate.
It is, in effect, a National Park dedicated to the Ferguson Rifle and American Long Rifles. If you have not yet been by that park and have the chance to do so, by all means, visit that park.
They have several original rifles on display and there is even a "romantic twist" involved-when archaeologists uncovered Major Ferguson's grave, they found a woman buried with him. She was probably his red headed girlfriend who literally "stood by her man" until the last.
By the way, King's Mountain was a pivotal battle in the American Revolution and there was no question about the role that American long rifles played in the victory.
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Actually there are more than 2 even if you limit it to Ferguson Ordnance Rifles. There is one in the Morristown NJ NPS site, one at the Minneapolis museum, two at West Point, one at the Smithsonian, and 3 that I am aware of at the Tower of London Collection now in Leeds. The one at Kings Mountain NMP is a civilian hunting model
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Hello Gents,
A gunmaker friend of mine (who built me a fine flint bench-rest rifle) suggests the authentic way of finishing - put some boiled linseed oil on the palm of your hand, and rub it into the wood. The heat from the friction removes the need to wipe any excess away. Do that every six months or so, and you're fine.
Cheers,
Bill
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“Every Insult and Indignity”: The Life, Genius & Legacy of Patrick Ferguson
The book is available for sale now. This is the full version of the book with over 100 color plates that will be available online and at our lectures/demos.
http://www.everyinsultandindignity.com/sales.html
The first book signing/sale will be at Kings Mountain NMP Oct 8 & 9 2011
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We will be doing a book signing, demonstrations and lectures at Brandywine Battlefield Historic Site Chadds Ford PA March 11 for Charter Days. Looking forward to seeing you all there!! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Every-Insult-and-Indignity-The-Life-Genius-Legacy-of-Patrick-Ferguson/283726168172
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I thought I would revive this post since it was so helpful in the Ferguson build that I just completed. What gets me is the photo here showing how far forward the touch hole is on this rifle yet the Rifle Shop semi stock is cut to place the touch hole off the pan and into the forward part of the breech screw as some other original Ferguson rifle pics. I put a 1/4 x 28 liner in my build but had to mill an angled guide cut toward the chamber. With the touch hole so far from the charge, can anyone suggest what the touch hole diameter should be?
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/fergusonrifle2_zpst6r5xhuh.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/fergusonrifle2_zpst6r5xhuh.jpg.html)
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060894_zps4zfu7kha.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060894_zps4zfu7kha.jpg.html)
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060890_zpsphjkozu8.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060890_zpsphjkozu8.jpg.html)
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060893_zpsybjq0igo.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060893_zpsybjq0igo.jpg.html)
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Very nice, excellent work. How does she shoot?
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For those who like linseed oil finishes, might I suggest that you stay away from hardware stores and anything called "boiled linseed oil".
Go to an artist's supply. There you can get cold pressed oil, as 4ster suggests, or "stand oil", This is cold pressed oil thickened by heat. One would dilute it with actual gum turpentine -again bought from your artist supply, Not hardware.
Artist's stuff is pricier than hardware, but no more so than commercial gun stock finishes.
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Xtriggerman,
I don’t have a direct answer to your touch hole size question, but have some related observations. In my den now are two contemporary Ferguson ordnance rifles, one by Narragansett using Rifle Shoppe parts based on castings from the Milwaukee (Nunnemacher Collection) Fergusson ordnance rifle, and the other by Ernie Cowan using all parts of his manufacture, directly from measurements and observations he made from the Morristown Ferguson ordnance rifle that he disassembled.
The touch hole on the Narragansett rifle admits a number drill bit measuring .068”, and no larger. That vent is located about 1/4” BEHIND the front of the screw plug, and the plug has been severely notched to allow the vent to communicate with the chamber. The vent actually enters the barrel within the female threads for the screw plug, and will be subject to having fouling ground into the touch hole from the dirty threads.
That seems to be the same problem you are solving with your angled vent liner. (Smartdog overcame this problem by stocking his Rifle Shoppe barreled action from his own plank of walnut and placing his self-made lock where he, and Patrick Ferguson, wanted it!)
Cowan’s touch hole admits a drill bit of .079” and enters the chamber directly, just like the photo of the Milwaukee barrel shown on page 57 on Bailey’s book “British Military Flintlock Rifles”. This arrangement seems to mirror Ferguson’s original intent, and rightly so.
I have photos of both vents inside the chamber, and both plugs. If anybody needs to see them, I can make my first attempts at posting photos. Cable, of this site, owns the Narragansett rifle in my den, and said he would help with the posting of photos if and when needed.
These are interesting issues with a fascinating rifle promoted by a brilliant British officer who made this technology and rifle a part of American history. The British hoped that the Pattern ’76 rifle (1000 made) and the Ferguson (100 made) would counter and neutralize the American long rifle, which was giving such heartburn to British Officers coming to America to face American accuracy and ungentlemanly conduct. If Patrick Ferguson, gentleman that he was, had not passed up his shot at General Washington at Brandywine when he had him in his Ferguson rifle sights, we might all be speaking BRITISH now, God forbid!
(Moderators, please allow this thread to persist, since the development and implementation of the Ferguson rifle is intimately tied to the ALR! ;) )
Bill Paton
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Great post Bill,
I love shooting my Ferguson, and ignition is very fast with the liner. The disturbing thing about a Ferguson is the very thin wood left behind the lock. The screw plug receiver takes out so much wood. It is not surprising that most military issued Ferguson's that survive today are all broken near the screw plug.
dave
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Great to see this thread renewed. Here's the only picture I have of Taylor's Ferguson.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FFerguson%2520Rifle%2FTaylorMade10.jpg&hash=1a01eeec3960acd5ef4c5ba783590cd0fadac1b5) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Ferguson%20Rifle/TaylorMade10.jpg.html)
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Mr. Paton,
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I never thought there would have been that much variation with such a critical touch hole positioning but there it is. You would think the Rifle Shoppe folks would have patterned after the Morristown rifle. I did over size the liner hole slightly to .073 and I just received word tonight that the owner fired about a dozen rounds today and had no firing issues what ever. He is very pleased with the build. As for the finish, the stock had a rather ugly brown color with a hint of yellow in the lighter open grain. I knew a stain had to be used. Many years ago Birchwood Casey had my favorite stain for these type of guns. It was their Colonial Red. Of course they discontinued it. I tried a variety of new stains but was unhappy with them until I found Rust-Oleum "Cognac" Wood stain at Walmart.
It cleaned out the majority of the brown and gave me the walnut red that you see. One coat coverage is applied heavy on and wipe it right off after all the whiskering is done. Then I hand rubbed a few coats of true oil to quickly seal the wood. Then I completed with a very light "washed" OOOO steel wool rub down and subsequent hand rubbed coats of "Natural" Danish oil with Japan Dryer additive. Here are a few more pictures of the Rifle and Thanks for the comments.
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060891_zpsagblwqtk.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060891_zpsagblwqtk.jpg.html)
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060892_zpssfqbphex.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060892_zpssfqbphex.jpg.html)
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060897_zpscqbiaxtp.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060897_zpscqbiaxtp.jpg.html)
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060810_zpslhku6wca.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060810_zpslhku6wca.jpg.html)
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060811_zpsdgohd2sq.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060811_zpsdgohd2sq.jpg.html)
Lining up the drill threw the barrel wedge holes
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060808_zpsdtlkt04d.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060808_zpsdtlkt04d.jpg.html)
And here the stock is put in place for the perfect hole alignment drilling
(https://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/xtriggerman/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060809_zpsqrtdw3xi.jpg) (https://s635.photobucket.com/user/xtriggerman/media/BLACK%20POWDER/P1060809_zpsqrtdw3xi.jpg.html)
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Hi Xtriggerman,
Nice job on that Ferguson. I believe the TRS parts are cast from the 2nd ordnance issue Ferguson located in the Nunnemacher collection at the Milwaukee Public museum. DeWitt Bailey describes that gun in his book on British military flintlock rifles. Below are photos of one I built a few years ago. My stock was a plank of English walnut with a tiny bit of figure and somewhat plain brown color. I used a thin mix of scarlet and orange aniline water-based dyes to tint and heighten the color. It worked well. The stock was finished with an oil-varnish, which I believe was the kind of finish used on the originals. My only complaint with the TRS barrel and action is that my powder chamber appears to be short compared with the patent drawings of the original design by Ferguson. I cannot pack more than 55 gr of powder behind a beeswax lubed 0.648" ball or 60 gr behind a beeswax lubed 0.615" ball (the size Bryan Brown suggests). My rifle is accurate with the larger ball at 50 yards but I want more powder behind it for 100 and 150 yards. I intend to have a machinist friend bore out the powder chamber to the correct historical depth.
dave
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleBreech.jpg)
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleLargeViewSideplateSide.jpg)
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleLockplate.jpg)
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleLargeViewLockSide.jpg)
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I cannot pack more than 55 gr of powder behind a beeswax lubed 0.648" ball or 60 gr behind a beeswax lubed 0.615" ball (the size Bryan Brown suggests). My rifle is accurate with the larger ball at 50 yards but I want more powder behind it for 100 and 150 yards. I intend to have a machinist friend bore out the powder chamber to the correct historical depth.
I also made one out of the standard TRS parts. Using the .615 lubed ball, I fill the chamber with 3F Swiss, which is about 60 grains by a volume measure. When I close the breech a very small amount (a couple grains) is cut off by the breech screw and pushed out. All balls touch at 100 yards with this load. The Swiss powder prints a foot higher at 100 yards as opposed to using 3F Goex, which I also experimented with. Accuracy with 2F powder was varied depending on brand, but not as good as with either brand of 3F. In my rifle 3F Swiss was the "silver bullet".
I also lube (beeswax and tallow mix) the breech screw, which lets me shoot as long as I want without cleaning it.
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Hi Flintfan,
Thanks. I too use Swiss 3F and have good luck with a 648 ball but I cannot get any accuracy from a beeswax lubed 615. At 50 yards the horizontal deviation is 9-10 inches from a rest. The elevation is always fine but the horizontal spread is terrible. With the 648, they would all be touching in the black. I suspect, as always, barrels vary in their performance and what feeds them best.
dave
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the Ferguson rifle I made was for a Canadian working in Belgium. He was going to use it in Germany for hunting boar from a stand. On Jess 's recommendation, I bought a .650 mould from Ray Rapine ( what an interesting guy he is). The rifle shot to the sights at 100 yds and was fun to shoot. I made a little wooden handled brass tool for pushing the ball right up to the rifling in the chamber.
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the Ferguson rifle I made was for a Canadian working in Belgium. He was going to use it in Germany for hunting boar from a stand. On Jess 's recommendation, I bought a .650 mould from Ray Rapine ( what an interesting guy he is). The rifle shot to the sights at 100 yds and was fun to shoot. I made a little wooden handled brass tool for pushing the ball right up to the rifling in the chamber.
Hmmm.A breech loading flint lock rifle that employs one of the Schuetzen loading methods.Veeeeeery interesting.
Bob Roller
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Hi Xtriggerman,
Nice job on that Ferguson. I believe the TRS parts are cast from the 2nd ordnance issue Ferguson located in the Nunnemacher collection at the Milwaukee Public museum. DeWitt Bailey describes that gun in his book on British military flintlock rifles. Below are photos of one I built a few years ago. My stock was a plank of English walnut with a tiny bit of figure and somewhat plain brown color. I used a thin mix of scarlet and orange aniline water-based dyes to tint and heighten the color. It worked well. The stock was finished with an oil-varnish, which I believe was the kind of finish used on the originals. My only complaint with the TRS barrel and action is that my powder chamber appears to be short compared with the patent drawings of the original design by Ferguson. I cannot pack more than 55 gr of powder behind a beeswax lubed 0.648" ball or 60 gr behind a beeswax lubed 0.615" ball (the size Bryan Brown suggests). My rifle is accurate with the larger ball at 50 yards but I want more powder behind it for 100 and 150 yards. I intend to have a machinist friend bore out the powder chamber to the correct historical depth.
dave
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleBreech.jpg)
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleLargeViewSideplateSide.jpg)
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleLockplate.jpg)
(https://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u344/david_person/FergusonRifleLargeViewLockSide.jpg)
Hey, you did a great job on locating the pin placements for the trigger and sling loop. The pictures out there are (until yours here) are extremely vague. With a lac of any direction there, I decided to weld ears onto the trigger plate and pin the trigger in a more typical fashion. With the pivot pin much nearer to the area of pull, the trigger is some what crisper with less movement during sear release. While not original, maybe a tad more functional. Then on the sling loop pin, I simply intersected the hole for it with the tang screw hole but not dead on but mostly forward the tang screw. This way I just cut a notch in the sling loop stud and let the tang screw keep it in place via the notch. We can never have enough pictures here on all the great builds..... as few as they may be.