AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Skychief on March 26, 2011, 04:26:37 PM

Title: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Skychief on March 26, 2011, 04:26:37 PM
In regards to  a coned muzzle and starting a ball with thumb pressure....is cutting the patch at the muzzle more problematic versus a tighter load started with a short starter?

My rifles are not relieved at the muzzle and grabbing the excess patch material and pulling it up to cut it is easy.   I attribute this to the tighter load's friction not allowing the ball to slide as I am pulling the material.

So, is there any problem with the ball wanting to creep back out when pulling the material for a cut at the muzzle with the "coned" muzzles?

Thanks, Skychief.

Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: smallpatch on March 26, 2011, 05:34:20 PM
skychief,

NO.  Thumb start is a misnomer anyway.  It almost indicates that the ball/patch just fall into the barrel.  A barrel coned that big is called a blunderbus.
Even thumb starting is enough pressure to keep a ball in place while cutting the patch.  You CAN pull a patched ball out of a coned barrel, but if you have to use that much pressure to cut a patch...... maybe it's time to sharpen your patch knife!!

I'm just sayin'
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Roger Fisher on March 26, 2011, 06:20:20 PM
Dunno, I don't have any with coned muzzles ::)

Champhered yes :)
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: BJH on March 26, 2011, 07:13:09 PM
You could not cut a patch at the muzzle of my .58 coned at Getz's shop bought back when Donnie was still coneing barrels. You would definately pull the ball out or pull the patch from under the ball. I just use a generously sized percut patch. It shoots minute of deer heart just fine....
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: KennyC on March 28, 2011, 05:40:49 AM
Hi my 45 long rifle was coned when it was built 14 years ago. In that tine I can't ever remember pulling out a Rb. I always use pillow ticking  with a spit patch.  With a Sharp knife it works fine for me. My 02
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: roundball on April 03, 2011, 11:57:22 PM

I just use a generously sized percut patch. It shoots minute of deer heart just fine....


That's always been my approach...never got the bug for cutting at the muzzle...not being a purist it always seemed to be a lot of unnecessary extra steps 'to me'...and I take no issue with anyone who chooses to of course.
I've always just used the next larger size caliber patch for ease of loading without having to fuss with perfect centering and its done fine for my shooting / hunting interests...

Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: westerner on April 04, 2011, 12:41:14 AM
Hi my 45 long rifle was coned when it was built 14 years ago. In that tine I can't ever remember pulling out a Rb. I always use pillow ticking  with a spit patch.  With a Sharp knife it works fine for me. My 02

Exactly how do you get spit on the patch with this method of loading?    I use a spit patch also but use precut patches.

                        Joe.
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Daryl on April 04, 2011, 02:02:28 AM
Hi my 45 long rifle was coned when it was built 14 years ago. In that tine I can't ever remember pulling out a Rb. I always use pillow ticking  with a spit patch.  With a Sharp knife it works fine for me. My 02

Exactly how do you get spit on the patch with this method of loading?    I use a spit patch also but use precut patches.

                        Joe.

Stick the end of the cloth in your mouth - when sopping wet over enough area to cover the seated ball, place over the muzzle and press the ball onto it.  I then use a short strater and give it a whack to seat the ball flush - then, gather the material and cut off.  I don't see how else to do it.

Much depends on the degree of cone - Doug has a coned muzzle, that even with a very sharp knife, the ball will sometimes roll.

This is as much cone as I use - about 1/8" actual cone, with 3/16" total including the angle to the tops of the lands.  It is easy loading, even with a ball .002" larger than the bore and a .0215" mattress ticking patch. Thumb start? No.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/P6101151.jpg)
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: YORKTOWNE54 on April 04, 2011, 02:53:12 AM
Im with roundball, who would ever have enough slobber to shoot more than a couple shots if cutting at the muzzle?
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: westerner on April 04, 2011, 03:05:17 AM
Im with roundball, who would ever have enough slobber to shoot more than a couple shots if cutting at the muzzle?

Thats sorta what I was wondering too. dont know if can manage enough spit.
  I made a patch knife when I was fourteen and its in my shooting box. Have never cut a patch with it.   I showed it to my mom when I got done.  All my pride went out the window when she asked me if I was left handed.  I hollow ground the blade real nice, on the wrong side.  Oh well, it's still like new.  :-[


                                       Joe.

Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Daryl on April 04, 2011, 04:57:05 PM
For target shooting, I cut at the muzzle up until about 4 years ago - so I guess for 30 years or more, I cut at the muzzle - using spit for lube. Now, I use concotions of alcohol, water and oil (WWWF+oil)- or spit, as the bug hits.
Until I tried LHV, I'd always achieved the rifles best accuracy using spit - no oil or grease shot as well. Too, the WWWF shoots no better, if as well. Spit has also been the most consistant shot to shot for velocities.
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Dphariss on April 04, 2011, 10:20:43 PM
Moderns cone barrels far deeper than is described in the barrel John Baird and TK Dawson
examined.

This is as far as I go and is all, if not more than is needed.

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/DPhariss/More%20ML%20guns/P1050041.jpg)

This works really well and will start a .535 and a .018" (.013" compressed) patch with just the rod if tallow or oil are used on the patch. I suspect other wet lubes would work as well. I used spit a lot back years ago.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/DPhariss/ML%20Guns/IMGP0603.jpg)


Dan
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Long Ears on April 05, 2011, 12:31:20 AM
 I have coned all my barrels with the coning tools sold on this site. I cone them quit a bit more than the ones described above. The thumb start is not a myth and works very well on all of my rifles. I do not use a short starter ever. On the bags all of my rifles shoot one ragged hole at 50 yards if I do my job. I no longer cut my patches at the muzzle because of occasionally pulling the ball. I use a long strip of patching and cut most of the way through so i can tear the rest into squares. It is very fast and easy and I carry 2 or 3 in my mouth at all times when target shooting. I use bear grease as a lube for hunting. Just remember when setting your ball not to reach very high on your hickory rod. I have only broke a couple in 7 years. I broke both of them being in a hurry. Bob
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: mjm46@bellsouth.net on April 12, 2011, 04:32:00 PM
All the photos of muzzles with coneing shown are square bottom groves. Anyone done coneing with a barrel with round bottom groves. They tend to be a little deeper. How did it affect the performance of the rifle.
Thanks
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Daryl on April 12, 2011, 07:23:51 PM
I've never seen a picture on here of a coned muzzle.  The ones above are actually crowned, not coned.  A cone is usually 1" to 2" deep, and starts at bore diameter at the top of the muzzle, and over the next 1" to 2" gradually gets tighter and tigher until the cutting stops at the tops of the lands.

The only first hand experience I've had with that system, was on LB's .40 cal. rifle.  He could not load the normal working load I used in the crown shown above in my pictured post, which was a ball .002" larger than my rifle's bore, but same size as his + a .020" patch. Both rifles had similar square-type rifling. I think the onger tightening of the cone actually made swaging the ball and patch into the bore more difficult.  I also found this to happen with a bullet reducing die I made, wherein the shorter radiused crown step made drawing the jacketed bullets easier.  This seems to carry over into our guns with cloth patches and lead round balls as well.

I coned out two barrels for testing, for a depth of only 1/2" and 3/4" as described in the first paragraph. Both barrels doubled their group sizes to 1" to 1 1/4" at 50 yards, average. I spent an entrie day 1/2 shooting paper and changing charges, to no avail - my rifle's ability to group tightly had deteriorated.  I do not like to see paper between any holes in the group.  It's only 50 yards.

Before coning, and with the crowns shown, they both shot 1/2" average groups at 50 yards, which is literally stacking. I do not like coning due to my findings of lost accuracy, but some feel their rifles are more accurate after coning and that's OK, but not for me.
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: hanshi on April 12, 2011, 11:58:31 PM
I find myself agreeing with Daryl's assessment of "coned" barrels.  To me a coned barrel is, well, cone shaped for the first couple inches at the muzzle.  The pictures displayed are also what I call "crowned".  I have not gotten around to doing this to all my rifles - and probably won't do it to all of them - but have done it to one so far and it does work.  Loading goes very smoothly after the modification.  I really don't want a load that doesn't need a short starter.  Some of my rifles do allow the ball to seat at least half their (or more) diameter into the muzzle using just thumb pressure but a short starter is still needed to get it down any further.

All my patches are precut and lubed when I go into the woods.  At the range I lube the precut patches as they are needed.  Spit patch is very good but I run dry, nowadays, and stopped using them many years ago.
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: doug on April 15, 2011, 12:55:25 AM
     Without going down and measuring it, I would guess that the coning on my muzzle is 1/2 - 3/4" deep (down the barrel) and belled from 50 cal to the depth of the rifling or roughly to 53 or 54 caliber.  I at best marginally like it because as Daryl mentioned, as soon as my knife gets a little dull, it starts to drag the patch and ball out of the barrel.  Part of the trick seems to be to press the knife moderately firmly to the muzzle as well as obviously keeping the knife sharp.  With precut patches it works fine.  I prefer to cut the patch at the muzzle mostly because I am a bit (OK a lot) lazy and it is a nuisance cutting patches beforehand.  For timed events like fort shoots, I precut the patches

cheers Doug
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: smylee grouch on April 15, 2011, 03:04:10 AM
Doug: I think it was Taylor that had a real neat way to make precut patches with a ball bearing and race or some such tool, may be he can eloborate on that again.    Smylee
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: david50 on April 15, 2011, 04:25:18 AM
All the photos of muzzles with coneing shown are square bottom groves. Anyone done coneing with a barrel with round bottom groves. They tend to be a little deeper. How did it affect the performance of the rifle.
Thanks

i have coned a .50 Getz barrel and a .32 Rice barrel both with round bottom rifleing,i could see no difference in performance after coneing.
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: keweenaw on April 19, 2011, 04:47:21 PM
I coned my 54 Getz with round bottom rifling using one of Joe Woods coning tools.  Using either LHV or bear grease I have no problem cutting ticking patches at the muzzle.  My patch knife is very sharp.

Tom
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Daryl on April 19, 2011, 08:06:35 PM
Methods for making pre-cut patches. Hint - some bearings have a sloping bevel which makes cuting patches a bit difficult - I have a few races like that.  To remedy that, I simply hold the bearing race to the grinder's 8" stone which cuts a nice sharp corner to the edge, spinning the race while it cuts. The spinning race makes for a perfectly centered cutting surface.  No- the races does not break sending off shards of steel - nor does the ball bearing. We've cut, all together, perhaps a hundred thousand, maybe 2 - with never a breakage of any sort.  I use a small anvil for a base. It is the avild of the back of a broken 5" bench vice. Don't ask.

For cutting patches using an arch punch, I use a 3"thick X 10" X 8" piece of UHMW (HDPE) I paid $10.00 for at the plastics maufacturing shop in town. It is the same material used for chain races in mills, or for bench-tops in a butcher shop.

 Missing, is the method local shooter uses. He takes a hole saw of the appropriate size, then bores a hole with it through 2 pieces of hard smoothly filed and sanded wood - maple is good.  Brackets are made on the sides to align the holes perfectly when used.

 Then, the offset of the teeth is ground off, as-are the teeth and the hole saw is then sharped, inside to outside.  It is then chucked in a drill press.

 The cloth, 5/10/20 or 100 sheets are placed between the 2 pieces of wood with the holes aligned with either index pins or the brackets on the outside.  It is then clamped together and placed on the drill press table. Run at desent speed, the cut is made and hundreds of patches can be cut in just a few minutes, once you get the hang of it. Doing it will prove the best speed for your system. This is the method to use if you want to go into business selling pre-cuts. Several holes in the boards will speed up the process. Nice to cut at least 200 patches each time it's set up, as setting up takes about 4 minutes - maybe.  Time is money.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/ArchBearingPatchPUnches002.jpg)
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: George Sutton on April 20, 2011, 11:25:59 PM
I cut my patch on the muzzle for every shot. I can thumb press the ball into the muzzle.

I have had coned barrels and never had luck cutting patches. I always seem to pull the ball out.

Coned muzzles seem better suited to loading blocks.

IMHO
Centershot
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: smylee grouch on April 21, 2011, 04:42:25 AM
Thanks Daryl for the rundown on cutting those patches. I supose you lube them after you cut them., or before.   Smylee
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Daryl on April 21, 2011, 04:18:59 PM
I put the patches in a tin box- Sucrets or whatever the morning of going shooting, or the night before.  Lube is poured into the box and let sit for a bit to saturate the patches, then the excess poured out. I ony gentle squeeze the stacks and for me the patches have to be wet, not just damp for loading.
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Leatherbelly on April 21, 2011, 08:19:02 PM
 When I had a coned barrel,I used precuts and a "verboten" short starter. Ya, I could thumb start the ball in the muzzle, but had less damage to the ball by gently pushing the ball past the cone with the starter. Never had a ripped patch using this technique and this rifle shot as good as any non coned gun.With a coned muzzle, I  see cutting at the muzzle could be a PITA. That being, the patched ball is loose in the cone and the ball slipping off center when cutting. I cut my precut patches like Taylor with a bearing race, a big round ball bearing and a medium weight ball peen hammer. Works slick.
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Dphariss on April 22, 2011, 04:59:29 AM
When I had a coned barrel,I used precuts and a "verboten" short starter. Ya, I could thumb start the ball in the muzzle, but had less damage to the ball by gently pushing the ball past the cone with the starter. Never had a ripped patch using this technique and this rifle shot as good as any non coned gun. <snip>

How big were the groups?

Dan
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Leatherbelly on April 22, 2011, 08:25:31 AM
Within an inch,50yds., just 3 three shots tho.
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: blunderbuss on May 01, 2011, 12:50:51 AM
I've made two or three Jaeger rifles and they have a round end on each grove so that the muzzle looks odd shaped,it's hard to explain I have no clue why they did that Could that be some sort of coneing? I conture mine like that but just cause they did it,they shoot just fine like that.
Title: Re: "Coned" barrels and cutting patch at Muzzle...?
Post by: Daryl on May 01, 2011, 06:09:10 AM
Called a Hiney'd muzzle in the US- or is it hinied, or hinie'd or hiny'd?