AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: wvmtnman on October 27, 2008, 11:50:05 PM
-
After this past weekend's squirrel hunt, I have decided to build another squirrel rifle. I was hunting with a .36 caliber and think that is too big to be shooting squirrels. Yes, I was taking head shots but in a couple cases, there was no head left. I was wanting to hear how other people have done with smaller calibers. I am considering ordering a .30 caliber barrel or possibly even a .25. I am interested in the arruracy of these calibers at 40 to 50 yards and how badly they tear up a squirrel.
--And No, barking the squirrel is not an option. I am doing good to just hit the head.
Thanks, Brian
-
My muzzleloading experience is with snowshoe hares rather than squirrels, but long ago in a state far away I did a load of squirrel hunting with handguns, shotguns and rimfire rifles. Based on using the same calibers now on hares plus a bunch with muzzleloaders, I think it's fair to draw conclusions.
Head smacking with anything more than a 22 rimfire is going to remove lots of head. Even 22's will do it with HPs. Nature of the beast. I'm currently using 32, 36, 50, 54 and 58 caliber for hare heads. All of them will leave a headless critters, even with reduced loads if you get low in the skull or into the neck. Nature of the beast again. Even 20 grain charges in 32 and 36 caliber will take off the far side of a head. As will 22's, as a matter of fact.
I'm just not sure that you're going to start saving heads by reducing caliber unless it's accompanied by a major drop in velocity- certainly more than you would want to consider if 50 yard shots are on your plate.
The only thing I've found that doesn't mangle heads all that much is standard velocity 177 pellets from an air rifle. By standard velocity I mean less than 800 fps compared to the over-1000fps "magnums." In my first hand experience those too remove a lot of head.
With all that in hand, I still think a 30 or 25 caliber would be a worthy project. I just don't want you to get your hopes up about saving more heads. Aint going to happen, but there are still ample reasons to build them for squirrels.
-
This is sort of related to my other post about hunting calibers. I have an interest in building a .36 or maybe a .32 but It seems to me there are bigger concerns than it blowing Rocky's head off, since you don't eat that anyway. I always heard that the really tiny calibers got to be a pain due to the skinney ramrods and smaller overall proportions. I may look at it in a different light aftwer I try the .40 for a while. I do think the ability to just buy buckshot for balls might be a neat thing
-
This is sort of related to my other post about hunting calibers. I have an interest in building a .36 or maybe a .32 but It seems to me there are bigger concerns than it blowing Rocky's head off, since you don't eat that anyway.
Believe it or not, there are a lot of people who consider squirrel brains a delicacy.
Randy Hedden
www.harddogrifles.com
-
I guess it just sort of hate getting a bunch of blood in my game bag. On Saturday afternoon I shot 5 med. sized gray squirrels. Four were head shots and one was hit in the center of the back. I did not mean to shoot the squirrel there but it was moving down the tree and I must have pulled a little. WHen I recoved that one, it was almost in two sections.
Up until this year I hunted squirrel with a .22. I was just wondering what caliber roundball acted the same as a .22. I do not eat the brains but you guys who have done this before have to admit head shots are pretty messy. I was just wondering if a 30 caliber would take the head off or leave a nice little hole.
But, I also need something that will reach out to 40 - 50 yards.
On a side note, I have always wondered if a .36 caliber would be big enough to hunt turkey with, well I guess I know now.
Brian
-
When I started hunting squirrels with my .32 I was using 30 grs of Goex fffg becaues it was so accurate in the Douglas barrel, I hit a squirrel one day and he was facing me a lot more than I thought and you guessed it I shot him through the head but right down the middle, well there wasn't much left except a red mist and a whimper so I sighted in with 15 grs and watch how I hit em now.
Steve C.
-
Snowshoe hares are fun with all guns. My grey, fox and black squirrel shooting was restricted to back East with .22's and pelters. Here, I tried barking a red squirrel, but that's difficult at best, especially on the thick energy absorbing bark trees we have here. Miss by 1/2" and there isn't a bark explosion, close enough to 'bark' the squirrel and he's blown apart by the amount of thrown bark. It's hard. Head shooting is much easier. They are innedible - too bad.
With hares, head shots-only were allowed in our club shoots and any calibre is good for that. It's particularly spectacular with the smaller bores like .45 and even bettert he .36's if the ball is tripping along at a good clip. They take the whole head off in a big show of blown tiny pieces - gone! With reduced loads in a 14 bore rifle, even that little 480gr. round ball will kill a rabbit with smashing results. Load the big game rifles up and you can blow the hide right off'n his carcase.
-
After only minimal load workup, I couldn't wait and went squirrel hunting with my new flintlock in .25 cal. I'm shooting a #4 buckshot (.24 cal.) and a .015 patch with TC Wonderlube. It loads easily out of a bullet board with a starter. You have to push the ramrod down in about 4" increments or there is a strong likelihood of a broken ramrod. The combination loads very easily and I've fired 10 consecutive shots without any noticeable increase in resistance. I think I will try some #3 buckshot at .25 cal. and see how that does. I don't think the .25 has shown itself to be as destructive as the .32 cal. or my antique rifle that I shoot #2 buckshot in (.27 cal.). I shot 8 squirrels in two mornings and only two of them were good headshots. Their heads weren't removed but two is only limited experience. My overall sense is that the .25 is not as destructive. Non the less, head wounds always bleed a lot. I put mine on a game hanger and just let them drain. I rarely ever shoot beyond 30 yds. The .32 is probably better at longer distances.
James Levy
-
James- if I lived in an area that had squirrels suitable for hunting as you do, I'd have a little gun like that too. Sounds PERTFECT!
-
Believe it or not, there are a lot of people who consider squirrel brains a delicacy.
Randy Hedden
Squirrel brains are actually quite good (if you like brains) but are a whole lot of work for a very small morsel. I usually hunt them with my .50 and go for the head shots. That way I get to eat my favorite part, the heart!
-
Did the squirrels care?
Little bitty calibers require little bitty 1/4 rods to load. I see it as sillyness.
Dan
-
Brian...I've got flintlocks in .32, .30, .29, .and .25 calibers, all good squirrel calibers for Southern Illinois. I've not noticed a great deal of difference in the damage they do to a squirrel's head, which is to "mush" it up real good if not remove a portion of it! I haven't had experience with 50 yard shots but have taken a few at 30 yards which, for me, helps if I'm leaning on a tree to make the shot. The rifles are plenty capable of making the shots if I can do my part. All of my rifles have a hickory ramrod except the .25 and I went to a brass one since the hickory was very small at this diameter. Fouling has not been a problem with the smaller calibers for me. I usually use Lehigh Valley or a homemade deer tallow/olive oil/beeswax lube and don't have to swab during a morning's hunt. I plan on using these calibers with cottontails in front of my two beagles this coming season and will go for head shots on these as well. Like another post suggested, a pellet rifle will not tear up the squirrel heads. I've also used .22 CB caps in the past with much success. Tom
-
I went back to a 40 because I was shooting targets and blowing up squirrels with a 32. It wanted about a 20 grain min charge to shoot. 40 was better at longer range targets. The 32 hits about like a 22 mag HP. That being said I am thinking about making another squirrel gun in 32 as it is a little cheaper to shoot small game with than a 40 and it worked. The 32 darned near took the head off of a snowshoe rabbit so head shots are a must. I shot a lot of them with a 45 and really didn't wee much difference in meat destruction as a blown off head is a blown off head.
DP
-
you guys that can still see good enough to shoot a squirrel in the head are killin me. all my squirrel hunting these days is with a 20ga flinter and #4 shot. don't tear em up and gets em in my skillet.
-
The 32 hits about like a 22 mag HP.
That's a very good comparison. I've taken a fair bit of game over the years with the 22 mag, and all but head shots resulted in terrible meat loss. If you dropped the shot down into the neck, you were likely to lose the shoulders due to blood shot. It inspired me to search out 22 WRF ammo, and I only quit using my beloved Anschutz 22 mag for edible game when that supply dried up. Velocity is simply too high with 22 mag for my uses.
In a similar vein, I've continued to drop the hunting charge in my 32. I'm currently using 20 grains of 3f and considering a drop to 15 grains or so. 20 grains is still going too fast, in my book. I'm not interested in 50 yard shots, while I am dedicated to putting as much meat on the table as feasible.
My attraction to calibers smaller than 32 is based solely on their potential with very small powder charges and low velocities- on the order of 1200fps or so. I've got a fair bit of foundation for that figure, along with the potential of a 25 caliber. These days my top non-muzzleloading arm for snowshoe hare is a 25-20 WCF. Optimum velocity for performance on small game is in the 1100-1200 fps, regardless of bullet weight. I suspect a 25 caliber ML would replace it quickly.
-
Mike Rowe at Caywood's built himself a simply dandy, walnut stocked Tennessee mountain rifle with a swamped 25 caliber barrel from Ed Rayl. It has a long tang that goes all the way to the extension on the BP. The guard and BP are constructed from sheet metal and are very light. I think the barrel was 9/16" at the waist. I seem to recall that his powder measure is a 22 hornet case. Mike says it will shoot inside 3/4" at 50 yards all day long. I told him he could put it in my truck down at Friendship and I would take good care of it, but ... I can't think of a dandier squirrel rifle than that.
Tom
-
Thanks for all the replies. I think I am leaning toward a .30 caliber. I have a piece of wrought iron that is 1 inch round and 50 inches long. I think I am going to have Ed Rayl make me a .30 caliber barrel. I have always liked the idea of little calibers and feel this would be perfect for a fullstock late percussion gun. Possibly in the style of a WV rifle from the 1870"s. Hopefully by then my Mountain Cur is treeing a little better than she is now and I can get a lot of use out of the rifle.
Brian
-
Hopefully by then my Mountain Cur is treeing a little better than she is now and I can get a lot of use out of the rifle.
Brian
Squirrel dogs...a whole nother story. If you have never hunted with a good one you don't know how much fun you are missing. Dang I miss ole Butch.
Tim C.
-
Yes, Squirrel dogs are a blast. Now, combine a squirrel dog, a muzzleloading rifle and a Beech Tree valley with squirrels running everywhere -that is a good time! Two weekends ago my 14 month old Cur treed 6 squirrels. I was able to shoot out 3 with my .36 caliber. I am already looking forward to going out this Saturday.
Brian
-
Yes, Squirrel dogs are a blast. Now, combine a squirrel dog, a muzzleloading rifle and a Beech Tree valley with squirrels running everywhere -that is a good time! Two weekends ago my 14 month old Cur treed 6 squirrels. I was able to shoot out 3 with my .36 caliber. I am already looking forward to going out this Saturday.
Brian
I'll bet you are, Man that sounds like Heaven.
Good shootn', Tim C,
-
a .32 rd ball can be loaded to simulate a .22 CB, LR or a .22 mag. It is the premier squirrel caliber IMHO. The .25s become an issue in loading and fouling due to the small bore. The .36-.40 are too much for squirrel IMHO. Many choose a .36 because it is more versatile [.38 and .40 also]. But you cannot beat a .32 for squirrels and ammo is more available than say a .25 or .30. I personally shoot 24 gr fffg and a .310 ball in mine.
-
Loaded appropriately, any of the calibres makes a fine squirrel rifle, head shots being the goal. Not only is the practise good, but you get to eat the fruits of success.
Loaded correctly with the proper patch, ball & lube, there is no reason why a .25 would foul more than a .58. Perhaps the .58 should be fouling more? Choke up on the rod and push carefully, loading in 3" (or even shorter) to 4" pushes. The result is an accurate load with no rod breakage. I think many guys are hung up on trying to push the load down with one push - shunnnnnnnnnnngk, they think that's the way it has to be. Nadda! Most of us use 2 to 4 pushes to get the ball and patch down to the powder. It is nesessary with the combinations we shoot. Maybe that's why we can load and shoot all day without having to wipe?
-
No personal experience, just 2nd hand info with others that have had problems: the ammount of fouling may not be "more" in a .25, but it is a greater % restriction to the bore and makes loading without wiping harder. Try as we might to be careful, a thin rod will snap easier and even the rod for a .32 is pretty slim--of course you can use a metal rod or "wonder rod" instead of hickory. I have only snapped one rod in my life and it was in a .50 [had a flaw]. I have no problems with my .32 if I wipe after every other shot. The ballistics are simple--the .32 MLer is ~ a .22LR. I don't eat the brains [alot around here do] so head shots are OK with me--but any kind of angle shot with a .58 is gonna make mincemeat of a squirrel. I have hunted squirrels all of my life [~60 yrs of hunting] with a .22 and see no reason to shoot the little critters with a deer rifle. But each to his own. Down here hunting small game with a big game rifle is illegal by the way.
-
Mike are you saying a .69 is not the best calibre for squirrels? Come on, spit it out, don't hold back - I can take it.
I think I'd equate a somewhat smaller calibre to a .22.- probably something in the line of a .25 through .27. I've never seen a .22, even a .22 Mag disintegrate a grouse, but I've seen a .32 ML do it - not just a big hole through, small chunks flying everywhere.
As to wiping, I prefer to wipe while pumping water in and out of the barrel through the vent. That's the only time my bores get or need wiping.
Yes the rod is smaller and more care needs to be taken, but properly loaded, the .25 or .30 doesn't not have to be wiped while shooting - whether the shooting involves 5 shots or 50. .010" and .012" patches are the reason many guys need to wipe. If you have to, reduce the ball size so you can use a .018" to .020" denim or ticking patch with Hoppe's Plus, LHV or Shen. Vlube or whatever works in your rifle. Having to wipe wastes time when a guy could be shooting. I've heard some like having to wipe their bores as it gives an excuse for not using a proper lube. Little snip of a young lady has shot a .32 cal. rifle at Heffley Creek for 3 rondys now and she has never had to wipe the bore while shooting. Why not? I know why - her father in law worked up a proper load for her rifle. Many of us are very happy the women compete against each other as she out-scores most of the men shooting at any given time.
-
I don't remember fouling being too much of an issue with a 32. One of the things I think with a ramrod is that we tend to use dowels or doweling systems to make them. Originally some were split out with a froe and then rounded. We have to have perfect round, not really necessary. Ball availiability is my issue for looking at a 32. I would think buckshot would be kind of interesting as it is usually made out of antimony alloy, ie "magnum" shot. While they do cut back on bigger pellets it would be harder than pure lead. Maybe wheelweight would work in a 32 with less destruction?
DP
-
It's always struck me that folks are so careful about fabric thickness for their shooting patches, but many are darned sloppy about what they use for cleaning and swabbing patches. Yet, bore fit for the patch/jag combo has a huge influence on fouling accumulation.
If you've got a good tight fit for swabbing, you're just going to accumulate less fouling. You're also likely to have to swab less often. I used to cuss my 32 for fouling when using old t-shirt for swabs. Got some heavier flannel and POOF! That 32 was so impressed it decided to quit fouling so much.
-
DP- I've been 'told' that Hornady sells both pure lead buck shot as well as the normal alloyed stuff. Even the 'hard' buck is softer than WW metal. Of course, I am not referring to the pure or almost lead wheel weights, the glue-on strip type.
-
I've been able to retrieve very few of the #2 swaged buckshot that I've fired at squirrels (don't remember what brand). Most of them go right on through (20 grains of 3fff) . The ones that I have retrieved have been very flattened out (maybe they just met with more opposition). My impression is that they were pretty soft. I haven't tried shooting with a harder alloy.
James Levy
-
I have a question for you squirrel hunters who use a flintlock. Is it possible for the little buggers to "jump the flash"? I have missed a number of "easy" shots lately...the last one being at 21 steps with the rifle resting across my knees!!!I use a .32 with 20grs. of powder and normally try for head shots.
-
I've got a couple of 29/30 calibers as well as a good 32, but the one that is a little different is the 22 percussion that I built for my grandson a number of years ago. Instead of trying to handle 22 RB and patches we shot 22 lead pellets with a 22 long rifle case for a charger. Surprisingly it was pretty accurate, on calm days, out to 20 +/- yards and packed quite a little punch.
Mark
-
Jump the flash? I doubt that very much. With a good lock, ignition is almost instantaneous. Lock work, as RB indicated might be a solution if your's is slow.
-
Other than use in a squirrel rifle, I cannot imagine a use for pure lead buckshot as it would not pattern as well as alloyed. It is surprising how much a little tin or antimony will harden lead, but likely not so much to matter really. Just make them harder to load. I have had days when I thought critters "jumped the flash" as I know I could not have missed that shot. Targets can do that too on some days, no matter how well I staple them down. Seriously, even with modern rifles I have made less than perfect hits because the critter decides to take a step during the trigger sqeeze. You just start to pull the trigger, theres no going back, and the critter moves. Had that happen on a couple of deer that got hit less than ideal. Easily could miss a small game animal.
DP
-
I had to grin when Daryl commented that he had seen a grouse disintegrate when hit with a .32 rd ball...knowing how much powder he normally uses behind a ball, there is no wonder! ;D [but of course you can kill a spruce grouse with a thrown stick]. If I remember the ballistic info properly, the .32 rd ball weighs ~ same as a .22 LR bullet and travels ~ same velocity with a reasonable charge [or can be goosed up to .22 mag vel]. That is why I say it is comparable to the .22--the biggest difference being the diameter of the hole [which is a factor]. No doubt a squirrel can be killed in any number of ways with any number of calibers [or bird shot]. I have killed squirrels [and bigger animals]with a BB gun. My father routinely hunted everything from quail to pheasant , including squirrels and rabbits, with #8 birdshot out of a 20 gauge! I never saw him lose a game animal he shot at--but he was a crack shot with his mod choked old Remington Mod 11. Down in Texas last week some hunters were using #6 on the little bobwhites and kidded me about the #8s and #7.5s I had. Each to his own. I like to scale the bullet or shot to the game. Shooting a squirrel with a large bore rifle is akin to deer hunting with a howitzer. Where I live it is illegal to use any rifle >.36 for small game. My stubby arthritic fingers fumble with the tiny .32 pills and I cannot imagine using .25s--maybe that is why the bullet loading blocks were invented?
-
I hear you Mike. I think the fellow was using 30 ro 35gr.(stricken pyro) in the .32.- nothing but feathers and some sinue left. The longitudinal shot up the hoop at a sprue grouse in a tree allowed the ball to pass full length. We(I) reduced his load to 15gr. on the measure and he at least left something for the pot on the next one.
-
Thread kind of got some juices flowing, so to speak. Went out and shot a grey squirrel with my 40. It finally stoped running and stood still long enough to shoot out of a tall old oak. Hit the shoulders instead of the head and it didn't even kick when it hit the ground. Can't say it did all too much damage and really wasn't all that dramatic. Would have had to throw away the shoulders no matter what. Used a 45ACP case full of 3f, about 30 grains and a Hornady swaged ball. The 40 is not all that bad.
DP
-
Every time I have shot a squirrel with a muzzleloader, they have hit the ground and never moved a muscle...All except for one time which really freaked me out. I swear on everything that this is true. A few Saturdays ago I was squirrel hunting and saw two running around. One stopped long enough for me to pull the trigger. I aimed for the head. After I shot the squirrel, it fell off the tree and started rolling down the hill toward me. (The distance between me and the squirrel was 25-30 yards.) Then it started running down the hill, still toward me. I did not move. I was afraid that I would scare it into a brush pile before it died.
After it did not move for a second or two I took a step toward it. It started to burrow in a thick pile of leaves, I moved toward it quickly to pick it up by the tail and bang it's head into a tree, to kill it. When I picked it up and looked at it I almost fell over. The squirrel was missing it's head! The only thing left was the top portion of it's skull and the skin/fur on top of that. Everything from it's ears forward and below was gone. EVEN THE BRAIN! I still don't know how that thing did all that moving in that condition. Just one of those weird things hunters sometimes encounter.
Brian
-
Reminds me of chickens. When our ages were still in single digits my younger brother and I discovered that if you didn't hold them down when lopping heads, the carcasses would run all over the place while spraying great spouts of blood. The trouble started when we discovered that we could aim those scurrying headless projectiles. Right into the adjacent hog pen, where they were immediately pounced and eaten. Okay, that was the fun part. The not-fun part started when our grandmother caught us in the act. :o
-
I cant understand all this talk of head shooting squirrle's? How ya gonna tan their hides if ya blow their brains out?
-
I cant understand all this talk of head shooting squirrle's? How ya gonna tan their hides if ya blow their brains out?
I wondered when someone would bring that up. grab some bark and make the tea, that way you get a little firmer leather... :D
-
Reminds me of chickens. When our ages were still in single digits my younger brother and I discovered that if you didn't hold them down when lopping heads, the carcasses would run all over the place while spraying great spouts of blood. The trouble started when we discovered that we could aim those scurrying headless projectiles. Right into the adjacent hog pen, where they were immediately pounced and eaten. Okay, that was the fun part. The not-fun part started when our grandmother caught us in the act. :o
And your (good) story reminds me of the afternoon my aunt asking her son and I to go "fetch" two roasting chickens out of the yard for supper. He and I went out and tried to catch a couple, got flustered cause they evaded our every move, then had a brainstorm - the .22 rifle! Excited we retrieved the old bolt action from over the door in her and her husband Billy's bedroom. We each took a turn killing a chicken, success. But short lived, aunt Mable was fit to be tied - those .22 LR hollow points had made a wreck of her chickens.
dave
-
.36or.32 is as small as I can see going if I stopped using my .36 as a small game rifle what would I use it for? Besides paper?not legal for deer.
-
.36or.32 is as small as I can see going if I stopped using my .36 as a small game rifle what would I use it for? Besides paper?not legal for deer.
in your jurisdiction. 36 is legal in mine for all(!) big game-but i'd only try it on the whitetails and then at archery distances with perfect presentations. a man has to know his limitations (some determined by his armament others by legislation).
-
When I was young I always hunted squirrels with birdshot. My grandmother considered squirrel brains a delecacy and she would always complain if I cut off the heads when I cleaned them. "You threw away the best part!" she would say.
-
I have a flint in LH 32. It is a great gun and the Douglas Barrel on it will shoot from 10 to 40 grains into little holes at 50 yards. More than enough for small game all the way to deer under the right circumstances and where legal. I have never shot anything smaller but with 3F and the right patch, ball, lube I have never had any issues with it fouling.
-
I am currently working on a 30 caliber. Many years ago I had a 30 caliber rifle with a Bill Large barrel and that thing was a tack driver. Hopefully this one will do the same.
-
wvmtnman, Whatcha bet that squirrel was a Democrat?
All seriousness aside, I found my .32 perfect for squirrels. Damage was no more than a .22LR HP. I now use a .36 and it's not much more damaging than the .32.
-
Squirrels, squirrel rifles, squirrel hunting, Squirrel recipes.
Gods way of saying you need to go for a walk in the woods.
Pat Cameron
-
Jump the flash? I doubt that very much. With a good lock, ignition is almost instantaneous. Lock work, as RB indicated might be a solution if your's is slow.
I suspect I have had 2 deer do this over the years. One I am pretty sure of. One shot killed the deer anyway, the other gave the deer a "limp" ear from an attempted frontal neck shot (all I could see was head and neck) at about 40 yards. Good good hold, good break. I knew the deer was dead. No deer. Some, walking in circles, then trailing (no blood) and finally looking them (she was with 8-10 others) over from about 600 yards (close as I could get due to property lines) showed one doe with a floppy ear. Anyone who watches the outdoor channel and sees the way deer can duck an arrow when they hear the string will understand. Especially in slo-mo. Larger critters are not so agile. PROVING this would require shooting a number of deer on camera...
I suspect this is why the powerful atl-atl was replaced by the relatively anemic bow. Smaller critters would pick up the movement and be gone when the dart arrived.
This depends on the individual animal too. Some are far more "spring loaded" than others. I have shot past bucks during the rut, bullet passing withing feet, with HV rifles to kill a doe and the buck would not even get out of his bed...
Dan
-
it's settled, the ideal squirrel hunting caliber is your most accurate hunting weight rifle anywhere from ~20 to ~40 caliber.
go get 'em. ;)