AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: northmn on November 10, 2008, 06:41:56 PM
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We have kind of beat the best caliber for hunting issue to death. Really, caliber choice within a reasonable range is not all that important for deer, likely more so for bigger game, but again bigger bores for bigger critters is likely an accepted rule. Right now I am out trying to get a deer in one of the worst openers we have had in a long time with snow on wet frozen grass such that they are not coming out to stands that used to really produce. Using a 42 inch flinter, Applacian long rifle. It can be a real PITA in some of the stands we hunt out of but is doable. Was thinking about the nice shiny rifles I have seen pictures of while I had the barrel sticking out of the stand last night. Brass, when allowed to oxidize is really quite usable, polished it may glare. Just ordered a 58 cal 36" barrel I am going to chop to 32", a Durrs Egg flintlock for the rainproof pan as on my Appalacian rifle, and plan on making a Halfstock English style gun with a nice big broad buttplate. Sacriledge in a longrifle site. Also may put on a double sight system (one a peep for worn out eyes) as I commonly have to shoot to 100 yards. May not fit others tastes or uses but should do for mine.
DP
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DP - you will come to love the English gun for what it is - the ultimate in a hunting rifle design. Good choice. Just be sure to get the stock profile right - top of the comb is practically a straight line, parallel with the bore line.
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One you made yourself! Lots of satisfaction in seeing it do it's job.
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I made the 54 Appalacian gun also and likely will keep using it off and on. Two other comments on the "English" styled rifle. It will have sling attachments and a single trigger, both of which I miss in a longrifle. It will not be true English but I will keep in mind the issue about the comb being in line with the bore. Sounds like a way not to get kicked in the cheek. I already made a 12ga on the basic design I want. This will be a mate to the shotgun. One way to guarantee seeing no game for me is to hunt with a ML. Maybe can break the jinx in the next couple of days.
DP
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another question without a simple answer. depends on conditions, game hunted, personal taste, etc...first off it ought to be ACCURATE. Second, it ought to fit right and be handy in the field--this is not as simple as first glance would suggest, because what is handy to a still hunter in the dense woods may not apply to a western hunter of the open spaces or to someone who sits in a tree all day. For example I like my Dickert style .54 longrifle, but I cannot get it into the deerstand on my lease here in Lousyanna--the man who made the stand shot modern carbines. My .32 Tenn squirrel rifle has only a 37" barrel and pokes through the woods just fine, but my 44" barreled .50 early southern rifle might be a problem in some thickets around here. I think the Hawken styles were popular for good reasons--they are great hunting rifles, and I still have one, but my tastes run more to longrifles these days. The mid 1700s English short rifles look like a fine hunting arm as well...
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What makes a good hunting rifle? I like a nicely balanced rifle, sights that are easy to pin point on your target, smooth light triggers, A solid feeling rifle with good weight to steady my aim, Loads easily on a fouled bore, accurate, Reliable in the field.
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What makes a good hunting rifle? I like a nicely balanced rifle, sights that are easy to pin point on your target, smooth light triggers, A solid feeling rifle with good weight to steady my aim, Loads easily on a fouled bore, accurate, Reliable in the field.
Works for me!
Depending on species and terrain, I'll also adjust caliber and COG.
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In my humble opinion of what makes a good hunting rifle,,, it is a rifle that fits you,
and you are comfortable with shooting it from any possible position you may find
yourself in while out on the hunt. It's the rifle you would not leave at home ever!
It's the rifle you know so well that nothing can stand in the way of how it functions as you have complete confidence in this rifle to do its job, and it will do its job because you are that confident in it.
They are not easily found, or made... However, every once in while you come across one, and everything comes together just right as you build yourself one.
IMHO, it all starts with a stock that fits you "perfect"...
Just my two cents worth. :)
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I like snuffers answer. I might point out that no gun bug is ever going to be 100% happy with whatever he is carrying for every purpose. I mentioned my .58 Hawken in the thread on hunting caliber. Accurate rifle but very hard on the shooter if shooting from a rest or prone. At a smidgen over 10 pounds that sucker was a real booger to hump around the higher elevations of Idaho but if it was lighter it would be even harder on the shooter in recoil. No perfect answer. I think that English rifle will work out fine in .54 or .58 but it will never be perfect for everything. Then there will be things like the stock finish to think of. I used Tru-Oil on the Hawken and it didn't work out well in the rain. Tung oil seemed better. Lots of little consideration.
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We have kind of beat the best caliber for hunting issue to death. Really, caliber choice within a reasonable range is not all that important for deer, likely more so for bigger game, but again bigger bores for bigger critters is likely an accepted rule. Right now I am out trying to get a deer in one of the worst openers we have had in a long time with snow on wet frozen grass such that they are not coming out to stands that used to really produce. Using a 42 inch flinter, Applacian long rifle. It can be a real PITA in some of the stands we hunt out of but is doable. Was thinking about the nice shiny rifles I have seen pictures of while I had the barrel sticking out of the stand last night. Brass, when allowed to oxidize is really quite usable, polished it may glare. Just ordered a 58 cal 36" barrel I am going to chop to 32", a Durrs Egg flintlock for the rainproof pan as on my Appalacian rifle, and plan on making a Halfstock English style gun with a nice big broad buttplate. Sacriledge in a longrifle site. Also may put on a double sight system (one a peep for worn out eyes) as I commonly have to shoot to 100 yards. May not fit others tastes or uses but should do for mine.
DP
I have a 30" barreled 66 caliber English style flint that is just a really good hunting rifle. I really like the thing and it will make 1600-1650 fps with a 1 ounce ball.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FIMGP0080.jpg&hash=d246b91e98b890a286a5f30faf865101f6570436)
I just need to get it completed. Got it working last hunting season and have done some minor things with it but it needs checkering, rust bluing of the barrel and other stuff.... Probably a tang sight :-\ But its hunting season again.
TOWs Purdy rifle plan will give a good buttstock design. I used about 1/4" of cast off. The forend on a flint gun should have 2 keys. This rifle has a horn forend cap white metal is fine silver. Stock is American grown English walnut. Most of the hardware is Manton.
Dan
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Reliability, accuracy, sights that work for you under your hunting conditions, and fit, in that order. What's acceptable to you in each category and how you get there is an individual choice. Just my two cents (which may be more than it's worth!).
Eric
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In our area of Pennsylvania my .54 Jaeger (31 inch Getz) is my deer 'hunting' rifle!
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Roger and Dan have the right idea - for a hunting rifle design. Taylor's Jaeger is very close to the Egnlish gun's fit, the way it comes to the shoulder and the sigthts are already lined up on what you wanted to hit. THAT is the final test of a real hunting rifle. A guy can get by with about anything, but the shotgun butt of the English gun and Jaeger, along with the failry straight comb having proper drop at the comb and heel are what seems to work best. For fast and accurate shooting, the English gun styling is still the best there is.
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Alright we've chomped on this subject for some time now...but what about the WEATHER FACTORS, mainly rain & snow, which is predicted for our deer opener this Sat. How many will admit to abandoning the flinter for a perc. or shotgun or modern rifle. I live & hunt in a shotgun, pistol or ML only zone. As much as I want to take a deer with my nice .54 Beck rifle, I will most likely go with my tried & true .62 Jaeger in the fowl weather. It has served me well for 25 years & is easier to manuever around in my covered blind with it's 30" barrel. A lot of guys use a 12 ga. shotgun for their first deer, then switch to their ML for the second deer. But that leaves me empty even if the freezer gets filled. My Jaeger is a Thomas Pistor, RCA#5 or 6, military style with walnut stock & deep etched steel furniture. It sure aint pretty...more like a big old rottwieler.
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Also helps if it's one you don't mind adding "patina" to!
I keep thinking a .62 cal jaeger would br real nice, but mostly I use a 20ga American fowler with a 44" barrel and a simple Virginia rifle in .54 cal with a 42" barrel--currently my shortest. I've come to like long barrels, and am reluctant to go back to shorter barrels. Back when young and new to this game, I had a .54 TC Renegade cap gun that did me fine for several years.
Times've changed, I've changed. But you should shoot what you're comfortable with and confident in.
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Its easy to talk about the situational theme, however except for small game like rabbits and squirrels and bigger game on up I could do well with 2 rifles. Whether Jaeger or English or whatever a shorter barreled big bore will suffice for a large number of situations. A percussion on the side may be OK also. I have been trying to fit my long barreled App rifle in deer stands and can tolerate the length but really would like something shorter. A large bore works better on deer than a smaller bore on bigger game. Weight is getting to be another factor. As Paddlefoot mentioned, lugging a heavy rifle gets to be a factor. I do not like feather weights but 10 pounds gets to be a little extreme. Recoil can also wear one down but it is surprising what a wide butt plate and proper fit can accomplish. My final thing is sights. I just plain want peep sights anymore out in the field. The ##**@$ U is getting harder and harder to line up with the front sight. I missed two deer, sights work OK on a bench, but get hard in the field. Finally got a camp meat with a peep sighted rifle, also shot a grouse in the head. Hunting rifles do not need to be fancy and should be something that can handle a little weather.
DP
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Hmm- I hunted with the .69 in foul weather - rain, sleet, hail, snow and down to -56F. It, nor it's percussion system never let me down. The 30" barrel was handy enough for sure and total weight was 9 to 9 1/2 pounds. I don't rmember exactly. With 165gr. 2F, recoil wasn't a factor due to it's English styling - wide, long butt.
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I have not hunted with a flinter but don't think a cap gun is foolproof either . In the rain up in Idaho we had several misfires with Remington caps that got damp. RWS went bang every time. You have to learn some things from experience...yours or someone elses.
Just one other thought on the caliber...you would want to consider the change in weight and balance in a gun where you might have a "C" barrel of .54, .58,or .62 to choose from. It could really be a different gun overall just based on what you select given everything else the same.
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I've used my flinters in snow and rain and freezing December hunts in PA and a little care goes a long way.
I run a fine seal of grease around the lip of the pan after I close the frizzen and use a small leather cover over the lock.
Simple iron sights are all I have and I use some extra fine emory paper to clean them up and get them bright and easier to see.
The most importent thing for me is spending a few days a week on the range firing at different ranges from different positions., standing, kneeling, sitting, prone.
Even half turned around.
The one shot you won't get is the one sitting at a table so why practice for it.
Other than that, any rifle that isn't too fancy to carry in the woods and has a big enough bore will work.
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I've used my flinters in snow and rain and freezing December hunts in PA and a little care goes a long way.
I run a fine seal of grease around the lip of the pan after I close the frizzen and use a small leather cover over the lock.
Simple iron sights are all I have and I use some extra fine emory paper to clean them up and get them bright and easier to see.
The most importent thing for me is spending a few days a week on the range firing at different ranges from different positions., standing, kneeling, sitting, prone.
Even half turned around.
The one shot you won't get is the one sitting at a table so why practice for it.
Other than that, any rifle that isn't too fancy to carry in the woods and has a big enough bore will work.
We (The White River Brigade) try to mold some of our monthly shoots around this type of shooting techniques as to help prepare us for our muzzle loading hunting season. It's not a bad habit to get into. :)
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Just read all the above, and one thing I would add for a flint, is a Fast lock! I know some locks are better than others, but even the best can stand a bit of tuning.
Re. flint in bad weather, I used one for about 10 years straight, just to see "how it was" and when we got to know each other, we had no problems at all with lousey weather....in fact, in Real bad weather the old percussion has let me down Much more, and is harder to keep clean.
Not wanting to change the subject here, just meaning if we Stay with a flint and don't flip-flop with weather conditions, they can work amazingly well!
Richard.
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If one wishes a big game rifle, one must use a bore size having appropriate dimensions. Of course, one must check for mice, snakes or squirrels before loading.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F2Boremuzzle.jpg&hash=32624a0954aa1f7a8a31b8a1d2769a71f8c28a02)
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One of the things I have been reminded of this year is the adaptation of our hunting to the weapon. You hunt differently with a bow than with a gun and you must do so with a long rifle. We use tree stands a lot in MN which are awkward for a long gun. I have used blinds to good effect and feel that they would adapt better to longrifle fans. I never had to go through the contortions in blinds as in tree stands either and even used X sticks. While the experience has been mostly with modern rifles, I feel it is also good for long rifles. I still have about a week and 1/2 left and may have to try making a few makeshift blinds. Duck decoy cord and cheap plastic lock straps work great for impromptu blinds. I also need to keep the range down as I am used to shooting farther than I can with iron sights.
DP
DP
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If one wishes a big game rifle, one must use a bore size having appropriate dimensions. Of course, one must check for mice, snakes or squirrels before loading.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F2Boremuzzle.jpg&hash=32624a0954aa1f7a8a31b8a1d2769a71f8c28a02)
Im betting you paid a midget $10 to hold the rifle so it looks so big ;D
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Spot-on! - It's 1.350" bore does look a bit larger than it probably is, doesn't it. That makes it a 2 bore, by the way. 8 ounce ball - what fun! I wonder what the conical weighs? Looks like a lot of gun spending at the range for several days working up an accuracy load for ball and bullet, lube testing etc, - eh what?
Ed Rayle made the barrel, btw.
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Alright we've chomped on this subject for some time now...but what about the WEATHER FACTORS, mainly rain & snow, which is predicted for our deer opener this Sat. How many will admit to abandoning the flinter for a perc. or shotgun or modern rifle. I live & hunt in a shotgun, pistol or ML only zone. As much as I want to take a deer with my nice .54 Beck rifle, I will most likely go with my tried & true .62 Jaeger in the fowl weather. It has served me well for 25 years & is easier to manuever around in my covered blind with it's 30" barrel. A lot of guys use a 12 ga. shotgun for their first deer, then switch to their ML for the second deer. But that leaves me empty even if the freezer gets filled. My Jaeger is a Thomas Pistor, RCA#5 or 6, military style with walnut stock & deep etched steel furniture. It sure aint pretty...more like a big old rottwieler.
I have a leather gun cover treated with snow seal some years ago sildes off pretty easy and fast. Even a good tight weave wool cover will work if its just snow or not raining very hard.
What I hunt with depends on the weather to some extent. What and where are usually the deciding factors. A RB gun is not all that great most times when after hayfield white tails.
Dan
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Hare's comment about a fast lock action is spot on. My Virginia rifle's action is in need of a tune and the lost speed is showing.
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Daryl that 2 bore looks like it should be used buy the Navy as a bow gun. Speed is nice but so is reliability. Speed is a matter of several factors. I took out my 54 today and found out that loading makes a heck of a difference. I loaded 3f instead of 2f, and left the vent pick in the hole while loading to prevent self priming. ( I used the #50, .07 vent. Then primed with 3f. It was surprisingly faster than my previous method of 4f and 2f. DIIK why. One of those things I used to do target shooting but forgot. The lock is a L&R English rainproof style and sparks very well and is somewhat "rainproof". Covers help.
DP
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for small woodlots-bordering-fields deer I like a 38" .54 barrel (straight) -- good carrying length -- plain fullstock with Durs Egg style flintlock, low, blackened sights, round ball, single trigger; or .45 Vincent style percussion, set triggers, with patched rb or 200 grain slug -- nice slim rifle that holds well with deep crescent buttplate off of the upper arm
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I made the 54 Appalacian gun also and likely will keep using it off and on. Two other comments on the "English" styled rifle. It will have sling attachments and a single trigger, both of which I miss in a longrifle. It will not be true English but I will keep in mind the issue about the comb being in line with the bore. Sounds like a way not to get kicked in the cheek. I already made a 12ga on the basic design I want. This will be a mate to the shotgun. One way to guarantee seeing no game for me is to hunt with a ML. Maybe can break the jinx in the next couple of days.
DP
Your coment about getting kicked in the cheek is a good one. Note the line of heel and comb to line of the bore on this rifle. It is my 14 bore, being held by it's new owner. This rifle is downright pleasant to shoot with up to 100gr. 2F or 82gr. 3F. With 165gr. 2F, it's still managable by the average well-practised shooter. that is not a load you'd want to shoot only when checking sights before going hunting. As to this 'checking' the sights - actually practising is closer to what's needed - the sights were filed in when the rifle was built in 1986 and to this day, are spot-on at the requisite ranges - 3 drams 3F - 65 m, 100m, 150m and 250m. With 6 drams - 100m, 150m, 200m and 300m meters. Ringing the gongs at 200 and 250 meters at Hefley a few years back raised some eyebrows - the noise and the ringing of the steel attracted appropriate attention.
This is the best muzzleloading hunting rifle going. It points like a fine shotgun - as it is always lined up on target the instant the stock touches the shoulder. On 8" plates at 50 yards, one need only concentrate on the target, shoulder the gun and fire the instant the stock comes into the shoulder. No alinging of the sights is necessary. This rifle has never missed this particalar contest (duel) for speed of fire - regardless of who was shooting it. Try this with a Hawken or longrifle - they are losers in this game. To handle like a fine shotgun is an amazing trait.
I should note this rifle has a Hawken breechplug due to the store being out of stock on the English breeches. Taylor had to make a piece and silver brass it in to fit the angle to fit the rounded Hawken plug, as well as at the forward edge of the bolster. This rifle has the appropriate drip rail an was built with Track's English lock.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FDSCF0011.jpg&hash=9a27832fa3a5c637befdee0ddc74eb498f304ceb)
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I like to use the term "inspired" now due to the fact that one can really get nitpicking if one tries to recreate an original. That rifle Taylor built is great and the breechplug is rally irrelevant. One of my characteristics of a hunting rifle is one that can take a few dents and scrapes without upsetting me too much. I like to make a rifle look good, but feel there are those that I beat around and those you take to shoots and show off a little with. I learned that a longrifle is not really all that bad once you learn to adapt to them. Another lesson learned. When I looked at the touch hole alignment in my 54 I noticed it was a little low. One can adapt well at matches by loading an appropriate charge of priming and get quick ignition. It does not work in the field. I made a new touch hole liner that has the sunset position and is quicker out in the field. Style of the hunting rifle is not as important as little things. My guns are too long for the coats I have to wear in below freezing temps and need to be about 3/4 to 1" shorter in LOP. Still do not like set triggers as single triggers can be adjusted to work for hunting and can be used to lesson the CLICK when a rifle is cocked. Frizzen to pan fit has to be tight to retain priming powder. You also can overprime and get a gap that causes any 4f to leak out. Wipe of the edges so no gap appears. Lock better spark, flints better be sharp. The touch hole I mentioned is important. Sights are critical and should be easy to align in the field. fine target sights belong on the range. Also the rifle needs to be comfortable to use and carry. For me the English styled fits all my criteria, others will feel differently as to what they shoot. Will my hunting rifle be a true English rifle. Only in resemblance and not as close as Taylor's. Few people will see it anyway as it has to please me and take a beating.
DP
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All of what you said rings true, DP. The rifle pictured has been on a number of hunts and taken it's share of game yet still looks good - to my eye and that's the only one it has to please. It's new owner will not part with it either- I've tried. I just noticed how 'light' coloured the rod it. When new, the rod was almost black 1/2" tapered to 3/8" & the original hickory rod. This rifle taught me that standard shank nipples give more consistant ignition and closer shot to shot velocties than hot-shot nipples. It's been 'tested' from well in excess of 100F to -56F. Amazing the main spring didn't break - I've seen that happen in such cold.
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I had a frizzen spring break at about 0 degrees. Kind of wondered if the cold had something to do with it. At about -10 and under I usually stay in. But was wondering about the use of flinters in the cold. Is there a point where it may be a problem? MN is not exactly balmy and Canada is less so. Funny how we regret some gun sales. Mine was a 12 ga fowler.
DP