AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: alsask on November 30, 2011, 04:13:12 AM
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I was trying out my new .32 flinter [Pedersoli] and I am disapointed with the group sizes. 2" to 2 1/2" at 30 yards. Everything seems fine, ignition is almost instantanious and the trigger works beautiful.
I am using Hornady .310 balls. I have tried 10 thou and 15 thou patches with no noticable difference and 25 grains of 3f and 30 grains of 3f. I have tried Crisco and Hoppes Plus as patch lube and both worked about the same.
I do give the bore one wipe with Hoppes and a second dry wipe before loading each round. My .54 easily shoots ragged holes at the same range.
Open to any suggestions.
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Sir
Might try 20 thou. ticking patches and maybe 20grains to 25 grains of powder. Also try 'not' wiping between shots. Something to try........
Macon
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Thanks Macon, I will try a thicker patch and not wiping. I have some denim that is about .018. The .015 seems quite tight though.
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Suggestions that come to mind (but which may not work) are:
You might try other patch lubes, including spit & water. Some guns allow you to shoot all day without wiping between shots because a spit/water lubed patch pushes the fouling from the last shot down in front of the new powder charge.
You can likely find some other suggestions by doing a Search through the Black Powder Shooting Forum here for ".32", "loads", etc.
Recover some patches and see if they look blown or damaged. If they do, experiment further with different patching material and lubes, and try putting a 20 gr by volume filler of corn meal or cream of wheat between powder and patched rb and see if that makes a difference.
Shoot over a chronograph and see how consistent your muzzle velocity is.
For grins, shoot a heavier powder charge, maybe 40 or 45 grains.
Let someone else shoot the gun and see how his groups compare to yours, or shoot off a rest, so you'll know whether the wide spread is a matter of load dynamics or shooter technique.
Good luck. SCL
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I was trying out my new .32 flinter [Pedersoli] and I am disapointed with the group sizes. 2" to 2 1/2" at 30 yards. Everything seems fine, ignition is almost instantanious and the trigger works beautiful.
I am using Hornady .310 balls. I have tried 10 thou and 15 thou patches with no noticable difference and 25 grains of 3f and 30 grains of 3f. I have tried Crisco and Hoppes Plus as patch lube and both worked about the same.
I do give the bore one wipe with Hoppes and a second dry wipe before loading each round. My .54 easily shoots ragged holes at the same range.
Open to any suggestions.
If its a new barrel I would use a tight wad of 0000 steel wool or white scotch bright polishing pad on a tight jag about 10-20 strokes.
Then try shooting it again.
Or shoot it 100 rounds and see if it improves.
Dan
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If all else fails, you might also try a bigger ball (up to bore size) with the same or thinner patches. I seem to remember something about Pedersoli rifling being a little more shallow, maybe? I'm not putting it down, because a friend has one that shoots very well, just trying to think what might be going on and thought if I mentioned it, someone could either verify that or correct it. More powder almost never hurts, esp. if the twist is slow for the caliber.
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alsask - here's what the muzzle of my .32 looks like. I was told it was a Sharon barrel, but it measures 48" twist. This crown allows me to load without a short starter - as it's kind of a very short cone - maybe 1/8" deep only, done with 320 grit wet/dry paper on a tapered electric drill grinding stone, turned by hand, then on the end of my thumb jammed into the muzzle. I rotated the barrel peridoically to keep it 'square' and it is perfectly & evenly crowned.
I shoot a .311" cast ball, from a DC Lee mould. They both come out the same, .311" X .310". I use either .0215" black and white striped ticking or .0225" (10oz) denim for patching(both washed twice). They load the same, which is easy. The small diameter ball easily 'moves' to conform with the rifling and the patch as it's so small. I can push this combo into the muzzle using a choked up ram rod, or the little stud (.30MI Carbine case) on my starter'd knob. I prefer to use the starter on the far right. I don't need to use the starter, but I'm so used to using it, it is second nature to do so.
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For a lube for target shooting, I use a mix of winter windshield washer fluid (blue) with a few ounces of neestfoot oil added - or spit, or Track's Mink oil, or Neetsfoot oil (not compound) using mostly pre-cut patches. With these lubes I EVER need to wipe the bore after firing or during an entire day's shooting, which can be upwards of 80 to 100 shots.
Note this barrel has narrow grooves and wider lands. This type of rifling usually requires smaller ball, thicker patches, but the patches I use which seem to work, are the same material I use in all my guns, even the .40 which uses bore sized or larger than bore size balls. I would never consider using a thinner than .0215" patch in this rifle barrel with .311" balls.
Once my .0215" pre-cuts are used up in that size, I'll only be using the thicker .0225" denim patching or the newer (res/blue/white) mattress ticking I'm trying, which runs .025" with tightly finger squeezed caliper tines. In testing, it loads about the same - still easy. I use the rifle's 5/16" rod generally, for loading. It's barely more than a 2 finger job as once inside, the patched ball is a perfect fit.
I use 35gr. 3F GOEX for a powder charge and this works OK for me to 100yards on the trail. Most of the targets run in the 40 to 65 yard range. Targeted on paper off a rest, it was producing 1", 5 shot groups at 50yards for me.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPB141918.jpg&hash=96ff9c5c3aaaa11234821ea998c14ae1ce730c73)
No flash top pic
Flash, bottom pic
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I just slugged the bore, it's about .322. I couldn't get an accurate reading on the groove dia. as I didn't have a ball handy that would completely fill the grooves but the rifling does seem a bit shallow.
The twist is 1 in 48". All the patches I have recovered so far looked good. I think a heavy patch is in order and weather permitting I will have another go at it tomorrow. I ran a patched ball down [.015 patch] and popped it back out with a brass rod I dropped in the barrel first. The fabric pattern showed on the bore sections where it squeezed the ball but did not imprint on the groove portion. The heavier denim[.019-.020] left a mark completely circling the ball.
Thanks for all the tips.
Dave
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Sounds like the trouble I had with my .25. Cutting patches at the muzzle solved everything. My guess is the light balls, if not perfectly centered in the patch can deflect slightly when the patch opens up exiting the muzzle.
Bill
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As always, guys, the smaller the bore, the more difficult it is to get the same accuracy tht larger bores can provide & the more EXACT and EXACTING everything has to be, from loading to shooting. The larger the bore, the better the accuracy potential, but then, recoil rears it's ugly head and along the line, accuracy suffers due to an inability to 'stand forth and deliver'. Shooting well then becomes a tradeoff between accuracy potential and our ability to shoot that calibre.
The marking of the patch on the ball all the way around is a big step towards finding a very accurate load that shoots cleanly.
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Try reducing the load to 20 grains 3f. Sometimes increasing the powder charge is not the answer.
Mr. Flintlock
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Well, you most certainly can and should use a wide variety of loads in testing. With my rifle, 20gr. shot a 5 shot group smaller than dime, at 25 yards - as did, 25gr., 30gr., 35gr, and 40gr. However at 50 yards, 20gr. shot 2", while the 25 and 30 brought that down to 1" and 40 opened to 2" again. At 35gr. I achieved just over 1,900fps - 1,927fps, I think and again, 1" accuracy. I couldn't get it smaller and didn't try different patches, but should at some point in time.
I felt that velocity would probably hold accuracy for futher out shooting. I only shot one group at 100yards and it went 3", 3" low on a 50 yard zero. Not very good grouping, but for a 42gr. RB, I figured maybe not too bad & hoped it would have been the largest of a bunch of groups I didn't get around to shooting. ;)
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I have an old Cecil Martin 32cal bbl with eight very wide grooves that will only group with 10oz denim and 0.320 rb's. With these, it is tolerant of loads from 25 to 35 grains 3Fg, delivering one ragged holes at 50yds. I have not found a lube that will allow me to shoot all day w/o swabbing, but do get 5-6 shots before it requires a damp swab. I agree smaller bores are more challenging.
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alask
Try weighin the round balls .seperate them accordin to weight.cut open a few of them and ya might find voids in them.Try meassurin the diamitter also. Curt
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Most highly unlikely the swaged Hornady's will have voids. Gene - the combination you mention sounds perfect - perhasp it's the amount of lube? Have you tried spit? The water based have always shot cleanly for me and less so the oils, however track's mink oil loads just as easily (or even easier) for the 80th in my rifles, as the 1st.
That's good accuracy - I have more work to do on mine. The .322" Hornady buckshot I have has antimony and is a bit reluctant to get started, but does so without cutting patches. I need to target them. Perhaps I should just buy a .319" mould- Lyman makes one.
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This target with one flyer is still a pretty fair example of the accuracy I get with my Traditions Crockett. I've yet to polish the crown but get easy loading using a .311" ball from a Lee mold and .020" patching with 30grns of Goex 3F. It's not fussy about lubes.
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I was hoping to have tried out the little .32 with a heavier patch by now but the winds are 35 knots gusting to 40! It is supposed to die down by the weekend though.
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Shooting those small balls in the wind at any range would be frustrating. Best to have a 'good' day. I have to get out and thoroughly re-test mine. I've been using a stainless 5/16" rod and suspect I've damaged the lands. It never gets hard loading nor does it hold fouling, but I shot a few targets with it a while back and was not pleased with the results at 50yards. I'll try a peep sight mounted in the rear dovetail to reduce or eliminate sighting errors due to my aging eyesight.
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I also have a .32 Pedersoli. It's accuracy is similar to yours. It has shallow rifling with machine marks visible down the bore. I have lead lapped, smoothed out the muzzle, used a variety of ball diameters, patch thicknesses and lubes. The best groups I have been able to get are with a thin patch, tight ball, spit, and swabbing between shots. These groups are still not acceptable. I'm doing what I should of done to start with and building a new rifle with American made components.
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A 13/16" .40 GM might be replacing mine. I have one, "sitting in the wings" if the .32's toast due to the rod. The 5/16" stainless rod I used for a while is a close fit in the bore and shouldn't have been too hard on it, but - it still rubs, constantly when loading. I put ithe stainless rod in the rifle's guides to increase the rifle weight for offhand shooting as it's a bit too light for me with a wooden rod.
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Finaly got a chance to try out the .32 today. Group was about 1-1/2" at 25 yards [6 shots] and it was a flyer that opened it up otherwise it would have been 3/4".
Much better with the heavier patch. Fingers got too cold so I had to quit for the day.
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I'm going second-hand here, based on shooting with a bud and his Pedersoli 32. He's convinced he found the answer, for his rifle anyway, and the holes in the paper support him. He's using LEE .311 balls, a .020 patch and TOW mink oil grease. He was experiencing similar groups, along with pretty wide fluctuations in MV when we pulled out my chrono.
He had put a pencil mark on his rod and noticed that with more or less identical seating pressure on the rod, he was getting some variation in just how deep the ball was seating. He blames it on the step between the breech and bore, or else failure of the powder to settle consistently in the flame channel with each loading. Lots of experimenting under the bridge, he's developed the habit of slapping the stock a couple of times opposite the lock to "settle" the powder consistently, in his words. Whatever is actually happening in the breech, his seating depth has become much more consistent and groups shrank accordingly. He keeps an eye on seating depth, and any time he gets a load that seats a little high, it's almost always his flier.
Lotta guys don't like the breech on the Pedersoli and dink around with mods. My bud isn't facile with metal and machine tools, but his "work around" seems to point to issues there.
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I have a t/c cherokee,in .32 that is very accurate.Easily a half inch group shooter @ 50 yards. I use 24 gr.(measured) of shuetzen fff, a lee .311 ball, pocket drill patch,and old lehigh valley lube.
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Dang - I wish mine would do that. Best mine did when working up a load, was an inch.
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I recently discovered a couple of problems when trying to sight in my .32.
The short starter I bought was way too big a dia. I could not easily insert the stub with just a patch [and no ball]. It must have been designed for a .36! I tried inserting the starter with just a patch and no ball and it was jamming and tearing the patch. Who would have thought?
The patches I was using were left over from last years hunting season with my .54 and had turned rotten, I had pre-lubed them and stored them in a pill bottle. You can easily rip them with just a tug. Lesson learned there.
Tomorrow I will give the little flinter another try, I fixed the starter and will use fresh patches. I was ready to wrap the gun around a tree. Weather is forecast calm and +3.
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A starter smaller in diameter than 5/16" is needed as that size will grab a patch. 1/4" brass would work, but 1/4" hickory is preferable due to the brass being harder on the crown as to wear.
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In my .32 cal Rayl barreled rifle I'm shooting 15 grains fff, 310 ball and cotton t-shirt patches with no lube, brush and alcohol swab after 3 getting about a quarter sized group at 40 yards. My crockett would not do better than a snuff can group at forty with patch and ball.
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I have been stretching the range on my .32. I found the groups fall apart after 40 yards with the dry thin patch, so I did some experimenting with patch and lubes. Best groups at 50 yards was .20 pillow tick patch, very light bore butter, .310 ball and 19 grains fff. Result was about a quarter sized group. At 100 yards same patch and ball, 41 grains fff gave consistent snuff can sized groups. I swabbed with alcohol and dry patch after every 3 shots.
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I have a 32 early Dixie poor boy and it is very fussy about the powder charge. I use buckshot with roughly .015" patch and spit patches cut at the muzzle. In my case I started with 15 grains and worked up to 30 gr of 3F. It seems to like the 30 grain charge
cheers Doug
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Mine likes 35gr. for all round. With 30gr. is was giving the odd flyer out of the group. With 35gr. 3F GOEX, they are all in the group. I was using .311" pure lead cast balls, Lee mould with 10oz denim as well as the .023" railroad ticking. No wiping is needed - ever as it'/s cleaned/wiped, ever time a ball is seated, but then, the best I can get is 1" at 50 yards for 5 shot groups. I thought that was pretty good for a .32 until this thread. I picked up a .319" Lee moud which will become my go-to mould now.
I still have some pure 100% cotton stretchy material that runs .019" in heavily compressed calipers that might just be the ticket for this .319" ball - with the normal, easy loading. This material is very tightly woven, with a crinkled stitch that gives it some stretch, although no synthetics are in it - it is very strong, with an exceptionally high thread count. I am hording the last yard of it now.
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I've had my Crockett a good 12 years or so and have no idea if any changes have been made to the model since then. The grooves in the bore (my rifle) are quite deep, noticeably deeper than many other factory rifles I've owned or examined. I think this is partly the reason a .311" ball and .020" patch loads so easily and produces fine accuracy. I know for certain the accuracy is not a result of my shooting ability. :(
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In my rifle, Hanshi, with about .008" rifling, I can push the .023" ticking patched .311" ball down into the muzzle with the stud on the short starter's knob, just by pushing on it with my hand. The small balls re-form into the rifling very easily. It doesn't take very much pressure, it seems.
I found when using mink oil in my .32, that after the first shot, it loaded easier than the first had and continued to do that however many shots I fired- all were easier than the first - perhaps that was due to the 'other' oil film not being compatible with the mink oil? Dan found this with WD40 as well. When using the normal wet patches, I haven't noticed this - except every round including the last round of the day, whether it's only the 50th or the 80th, always loads as easily as the first - only fore finger and thumb on the ram rod to seat it after it's started 5" down the tube.
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Finaly got out with the .32 yesterday. It is shooting as good as my son's Ruger 10/22 at 25 yards. I think my problems were with the oversized starter and too thin a patch.
Now I have to go looking for some rabbits.
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Daryl, I never got around to smoothing the crown on my Crockett so don't know if that plus a touch of mink oil would help even more. I mostly use Hoppes which allows me to shoot and shoot and easily reload. The only time I ever do anything to the bore during a session is to occasionally use a brush or patch is if a crud ring seems to have formed.
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The little .32's a blast to shoot. I've never had any crud rings develope, so cannot address that problem.
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Speaking of "crud", any ideas as to why my .32 gets a crud build up on the breach face ? Eventually, it needs scraping.
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Don't know, Bob - I clean mine by flushing awatr in and out the vent under a much pressure as the rod can supply - no crud. I use 35gr. 3f GOEX and it shoots as cleanly and cleans up as easily as any other gun I own.