AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Standing Bear on November 30, 2011, 10:49:32 PM
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Located a Cherokee .45 in pretty good shape. What is difference between Cherokee and Seneca? What is average value or the Cherokee? Thinking ahead for my grandson.
Thx
TC
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Ahh ha. That makes sense.
Well what do you think a good price ould be on a Cherokee from a pawn shop?
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I picked up a .32 Cherokee for $100 in a gun shop, excellent condition. But this particular shop undervalues just about all muzzleloaders.
So I go there a lot. ;D
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I picked up a .32 several years ago for $125 used. Daughter was 13 then. Since then bought a GM .40 barrel, breech plug from TOW, other TC parts from Tip Curtis and now have a drop in barrel she can use for legal deer hunting. Still have the .32 barrel and she WILL NOT part with it as we have seen on occasion on other gun sites these rifles go for as much as $750. (OUCH!) She knows what she has and will probably pass it on to the new grand daughter who was just born last month.
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These were and are neat little rifles and they actually look like a muzzle loader. I used the hammers for these on a percussion pistol lock project for a German shop for a number of years. I had quite a number on hand but used most of them. I had a mould made to copy it and have some of those here if anyone needs one. The original hammers were harder than glass and from time to time would break so I thought a new one would be a good idea.
I will see what I have left and if anyone actually needs one let me know.
Bob Roller
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I was going to replace the lock on my Wife's modified Seneca with a leaf spring lock, and I found the mortice almost perfectly matched the Trackofthewolf Hawken lock plate. I had the plate installed, when a replacement Seneca lock arrived in the mail. This was a couple years ago. It came from the States, not from the Canadian repair/warrantee centre. Instead of the factory hammer, I used a Bedford County hammer - cute! My daughter shooting it.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP4191700.jpg&hash=283aab0202581161ab5fa7c867e8949730cb7a82)
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Bob Roller:
Check your email.
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I have four of the Seneca rifles, all in .45, that I have purchased over the past few years. The prices ranged from $175 to $300 and one I pieced together from parts I bought on e-bay. I bought them because they are a neat little rifle and because I wanted practice engraving. I have engraved all the brass on three of them and am working on the fourth. The stock shape around the lock is a little "clunky" so I have also reshaped and refinished the stocks. For the price, I find them well made, sturdy, and fun to shoot So, to answer your question about price, I would think $300 to $400 would not be to much to pay for one in good shape, especially considering the cost of just a lock, a stock blank, and a barrel if you wanted to build a similar rifle.
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For what it's worth,I make a fancy "4 pin" lock that is a direct copy of one from an original Whitworth boy's rifle that I get $375 apiece for.
$400 for a complete little rifle isn't bad. I made a boy's rifle last year but used a more conventional lock and it worked fine. It was a 40 caliber GM barrel and a milled from solid breech. It had semi-creedmoor styling with no rib or rod under the barrel.
I put a new GM barrel in 32 caliber on a Cherokee for a friend and then as a surprise,I made a miniature Creedmoor style folding tang sight that went with the 17A I put on the front of the barrel which I left 32 inches long.
Also altered the barrel key so it can't be pulled all the way out and lost.
I had been curious about a small folding tang sight and this was the gun to make the test with.
Bob Roller
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Roundball,
The barrels are both 13/16 but are different lengths. The Seneca is longer at 28" and the Cherokee is 25". They will interchange but the under rib on the Cherokee needs to be shortened for that barrel to work on a Seneca. I think I got that right.
Mark
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I think that TC built the Cherokee and Seneca for 'big kids' because they have 14in LOP. This can be a stretch for some of the grandchildren. I've both with Seneca 36cal bbls. and they are great lightweight shooters.
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The stock on the one in the picture was shortened to 13" for my wife. It was, as Gene noted, way too long for most women women or children. I'm sure I took exactly one inch off as I can remember the 'curl' in it and picture the 'piece' - beautiful chunk of wood. Their only problem is a lack of drop at the comb and heal, a problem with their larger models as well, requiring very high sights.
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Some pictures of the three Seneca rifles that I have upgraded a little with some engraving. Without rebuilding the entire stock, there is a limited amount you can do to improve wood to metal fit, etc., but a little engraving never hurts.
(https://preview.ibb.co/gZP8ux/Three_Senacas_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dEn6gc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/moGcnH/Three_Senacas_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/d5Jq7H)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bZFsMc/Three_Senacas_3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dNGMEx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/n1nTux/Three_Senacas_4.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kTCuZx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dHsHnH/Three_Senacas_5.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dQaEZx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/c8CuZx/Three_Senacas_6.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mttOSH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nCfEZx/Three_Senacas_7.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cexHnH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eGaRgc/Three_Senacas_8.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mp6XMc)
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Quite amazing, Dave - looks great.
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Dave,
Those are beautiful. If you want to keep practicing I can send you one of mine. LOL
Mark
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Mark,
When I stared cutting the TC brass work I found that I would rather try to engrave something a little easier...like tungsten!! Whatever kind of brass or bronze TC used in their castings, it is the worst stuff I have ever tried to engrave. It has hard and soft spots and the hard spots are really hard and the soft spots really soft. It plays $#*! with trying to cut an even line under any circumstances. Jerry Huddleston thought I was a dope for practicing on TC castings...and he was right. I was a dope. So thanks for the offer, but I think I will be practiced out on the TCs by the time I get number four Seneca done. That will make six, including the two TC .50 cal Hawkins I engraved as well.
Dave C
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Congratulations!! Nice work. Makes my engraving look like I got mad at it.LOL
Thank you for posting these great works of art. Cheers Bob
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Dave,
From what I see the TC materials did not get the best of you. As usual, beautiful work.
Mark
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Dave:
Are any of those rifles by chance...for sale...? ::)
I'm not usually much for engraving, but those rifles cause me to lust after them.
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Dave,
Great work, where in the heck do you find the time to do all that work???
rudyc
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William,
These rifles are not for sale but I have engraved a few others for people who liked the idea of embellishing a TC some. They send me a rifle and I "pretty" it up some and send it back.
Rudyc,
I don't really have the time to do much these days. This is what I really do for a living and it takes up 99% of my time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaVC3r8yw6g
However, the constant technical demands of "rocket science" make sitting at my work bench and doing a little engraving or goldsmithing or...whatever, very therapeutic. I try to make room for at least a half an hour a day to either really do bench work of some type or, at least, plan out what I might do next.
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MOST interesting, Thanks Dave.
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Dave,
WOW, that is pretty neat.
Mark
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Very, Very old post but Dave are you taking any Seneca "projects" to work on. I was reading old posts and this one came up. Fantastic work......
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Those are absolutely beautiful little rifles. A 14" pull is way too long for me; 13" is my max.
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Gunner69,
Please send me a PM and we can chat about embellishing a Seneca.
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Hey everybody, I just got on this forum and I was interested in what Daryl said about replacing a Seneca lock with a T O W Hawken lock. I was wondering which Hawken lock from Track that he used. Thanks. Dave. P.S. I'm wanting to find something to replace the non-available T/C locks without giving the E-bayers two arms and a leg for one. Thanks.
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Hello oldprogger - I don't know the exact lock I bought, only that it was one of their cap-lock Hawken plates/locks. What I did was to strip the TC lock down to it's plate and match it against the lock plates in the track catalog. This was possible as the pictures are scale. I found a plate that was almost exactly the same as the TC plate, needing only minor filing. I bought the lock from them and then purchased the Bedford County percussion hammer as it had almost exactly the right 'throw'. I filed the plate out for the TC bolster and inlet the lock parts- done. Oh yeah- I had to turn the nose of the hammer in a tich to hit the nipple properly. This I did cold. DONE - maybe 1hr's work altogether. I got a really good edge on my "inletting" screwdrivers this time, so it went quickly. :D (Taylor's orders, of course) Agasint his orders, I might have used my B&D Dremel as well? I don't remember exactly.
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Hey Daryl, Thanks for the info on the lock. I will try just what you said to do. Them E-bay hustlers need to be undermined a little and I don't mean perhaps. Thanks again. Dave.
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welcome