AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Herb on January 07, 2012, 06:45:58 AM
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In this test of a .40 Vincent I built, I used .400 balls from Eddie May and .020 OxYoke patches with 40 grains of Goex 3F. Having only three balls left, I used .010 OxYoke patches and they went 222 fps faster and cut the group size by one-fourth. I always wondered if that result would repeat.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/170.jpg)
Today I tested those patches again, shooting from rest at 50 yards. My ".400 Rush Creek" cast balls are really only about .395 and weigh 95.5 grains, very uniform. The .020 OxYoke patching measured .019 and the .010 OxYoke patching really was .010. I used spit for lube and did not wipe between shots nor between targets. 40 grains of Goex 3F. (On an IBM computer you can enlarge the photo by holding down the Control and hitting the Plus sign. Minus makes smaller. Control zero (0), back to normal.
The caplock Thomas Oldham Bedford I built has a 7/8" x 42" Green Mountain barrel. I used CCI 11 caps. The flint Jacob Wigle (Westmoreland Co., PA) rifle I built with a 15/16" x 44" Green Mountain (IIRC) barrel. I could not start an .020 patched ball into the bore, so went with ".015 OxYoke" precut round patches, which really mike .011 to .012. And then .010 on Target 4. Notice that Target 3 shows a 1.9" group with the same velocity and wide spread as Target 1. Then on Target 4, I used .010 OxYoke and the group went to six inches. There was radio interference preventing further chronographing, so I got only one velocity, 1599 fps. So I shot four more ".015" OxYoke, same as on Target 3, and the accuracy returned. I did not find any torn patches. Just some of the variables out there!
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/1-6-2012/DSC00048.jpg)
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Having only three balls left, I used .010 OxYoke patches and they went 222 fps faster and cut the group size by one-fourth.
That's interesting...in some chronograph tests I've run, thicker tighter fitting patches gave me slightly higher velocities, not lower. And a difference of 222 fps is huge.
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"On an IBM computer you can enlarge the photo by holding down the Control and hitting the Plus sign. Minus makes smaller. Control zero (0), back to normal."
Herb, That also works on other PC's, my Dell (Windows XP) for example.
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Thanks, Maven. I should have said "IBM type", mine is also a Dell with Windows Vista. Don't know if this works on an Apple. Another way to enlarge is to go to the bar at the top of the screen and click on the gear-shaped icon and then "zoom" to change image size. There may be other ways, if anyone knows, please tell us. It often helps to see larger images.
I got a new Sony Cyber-shot camera and loaded the disc on my computer. There is now a new program that is changing my photos and I haven't figured out how to keep the photos in my Windows program, nor how to crop or enlarge in this program.
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This was the crown on my Wigle rifle. The barrel is a 15/16 x 44 round bottom Rice. This sharp crown would not allow seating the .395 ball in an .020 patch without a hammer (literally).
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleCrown.jpg)
So I crowned it, following Daryl's procedure. The bore is lightly coned, but I can seat a .395 ball in an .010 patch only half way into the bore. The new crown permits seating the .020 patch with a good whack on the short starter.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleCrowned.jpg)
The two targets on the left were pictured above. Shown for comparison. The top center target was shot with .020 OxYoke patches (really about .019) and the results were about the same, low velocity and a wide spread, not very accurate. Target 2 (top right) was with some new JoAnn Fabric linen I found in Salt Lake City, very white, loose weave, measures about .014. I did not expect much of it, but it held together.
Target 3 (center bottom) with .010 OxYoke shot tightest and fastest. Target 4 was with 70 grains of Goex 3F and the .010 patch. No blown patches today. Don't know why the fliers, it was not the wind, blown patch, or my holding. The crooked nose cap came when I riveted it on. I'll take it off and refit it.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WiglePatchTest.jpg)
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Not sure what to say after that flurry of activity, Herb. I've not found that large spread of velocities before. Wide spreads mean large variations is pressure - which shows up in speed. This usually has a detrimnential effect on accuracy.
This picture freeked me out!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv122%2FHerbGLT%2FWigleCrown.jpg&hash=ae753dd31f598aa23a432e46bcee30998def0ef5)
Guess I should perhaps post after the fortified wine wears off. Yikes again!
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Herb- when I chronographed my .40, I was using the accuracy loads of 65gr. 3f and 75gr. of 2f - both GOEX. I used 10ounce Denim which measures .0225" on my calipers- squeezing the tines tightly bewteen finger and thumb. the rifle game be excellent accuracy, and almost identical velocity for the loads in the .42" bl. Both were just over 2,200fps. This was out of my Goodioen barrel, with square rifling, every narrow lands, wide grooves and 48" of twist.
If this current mild weather holds, I'll see if I can get out and try it again, now that it's only 36" long and on a different stock.
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Daryl, that crown that freeked you out was the way Rice made it. I had him do a "deep crown" once when he gave me the option, but don't remember what barrel that was. This 40 grains of Goex 3F load gave poor accuracy and wide velocity variation in these three .40 calibers I built, and probably more if I looked at all my records. I respect your experience and will try your loads when I can get to my range again. I have used Swiss 2F with good results in a .40, but probably should try at least 50-60 grains. I also have Swiss 3F but don't remember trying it in a .40.
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Herb: I have had several GM 40 cal and all shot great but I always got my best groups with 60+ grs. of 3f Swiss and tight patch, 395 or 400 balls. Out of 6 40 cal GM the best grouping one put five shots into .6 inch outside measure at 50 yds. This was with my old eyes so I think you need more powder and a tighter patch. Best wishes and good shooting. Smylee
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Did I miss it, or did you mention what the twist was, Herb?
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The barrel is stamped 1*48. Thanks to all for their accurate loads. I'll work on this rifle when the weather allows.
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Herb, what actually freeked me out, was the distorton in the picture - looks like the hole is WAY off centre, side to side as well as top to bottom - optical illusion I expect.
When I first got my .40 barrel, I asked here what the chunk shooters were using for loads in their rifles. I knew they only shot at more meaningful ranges of 50 yards or further in their accuracy games. The overriding trend was for the heavier charges- 55gr. Swiss to 65gr. Swiss and GOEX, which is about what I'd expected.
My own barrel showed a preference for over 60gr. when using LehighValley Lube - a very slick lube. 65 was the best with 3f and 75 with 2F- identical accuracy - I was pleased. Later on, in more testing, I found it would shoot as well, with as little as 55gr. 3F OR 2F, if I was using a water based, WWWF/oil-type lube- or spit - pretty much identical results.
The same 'trend' held sway in my .45 barrel (same rifle) as well, ie: 10gr. MORE powder if using really slippery lubes. I now have a sample of Shenendoah lube and expect the same results as I had with LHV as they are so close to each other.
I am absolutely convinced that with more testing, Herb will be making tiny groups with all of his lovely rifles.
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Yes, it was camera distortion on that muzzle, I am looking down on it a little. Unfortunately, the crooked nose cap is not. Will refit that.
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In looking over the targets again, Herb, I got to thinking about my own grouping in regards to aiming point.
I found a round 4" (5" max) black bull to be one of the best targets to shoot at, with either a bead or blade front sight, and holding 6 o'clock.
It appears your aiming point is about 4" wide, but only an inch tall. Does that give you a really good sight picture? I find sight picture is so very closely tied with group size, no matter what sights are being used. I find the bull or aiming point size and shape to be quite critical - even with a scope it can make a substancial difference, but even more so iron sights.
I guess the reason I was thinking along this line, is I believe your overall grouping should be better and I think perhaps sight picture could be a reason why.
To a point, the smallest aiming point you can see well, will give the best groups with any load.
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All you need is a vertical and horizontal reference. I can shoot a sheet of blank paper and don't even need an aiming bull. You just hold the same each time, from memory. A big bull loses shots in the black, that is, they are hard to see. These big groups are due to the load, not the bull, my holding, the wind, or how I hold the rifle. I always considered 40 grains of 3F a standard .40 caliber load, but it is really not very accurate in my rifles. I kept using it here as a standard of that Vincent rifle.
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OK - we all have our favourite shapes. That shows at a chunk shoot.
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In the July, 2010 issue of Muzzle Blasts, Clark Frazier listed some Bench Rifle loads showing bullet weight and powder weight. He divided the weight of each caliber ball by the weight of the powder charge to get a Ratio, which averaged 1.454 for four calibers. To figure what it would be for your caliber, divide the ball weight, such as 95 grains for a .40, by 1.454 to get the powder weight, 65 grains here. That is the charge weight for a presumed accurate bench rifle load. So I tried it in my .40 Wigle flintlock.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/Wigle70Test.jpg)
I used ".020" Ox Yoke, really .015, with .395 balls and 70 grains of each powder, fired at 50 yards. Top Right, 70 grains of Goex 3F went 2010 fps. Next, Top Left, 70 grains of Goex 2F went 1809 fps, no wiping. Cleaned the bore now. Target 3, Middle Left, was 70 grains of Swiss 3F at 2169 fps. Target 4, Middle Right, 70 grains of Swiss 2F went 2047 fps, radio interference on chronograph. Target 5, Bottom Left, 70 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 went 1950 fps. No wiping for last three targets. I aimed at the center of each page and at least this gives relative velocities for these five powders.
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Interesting Herb. For small calibres it might be just fine.
The formula fails quickly though, with increased bore size due to the exponentially heavier ball weight with increase in size.
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I found some of my own .40 cal. targets. All shooting at a measured 50 yards off a rest.
The top target.
This one has 4 groups with a bench-rest 5 shot group on the centre bull with balls from my .395" SC Lyman mould and the same load on the top left bull, offhand same ball, load of 55gr. 2F and .0215 patch, but with 8 shots fired. Due to running short on pre-lubed patches, I used spit for lube for the offhand group. I've found it shoots virtually identially to the WWW and a bit of oil added. I have since accurately measured these .395" mould balls and they are .398" X .397" - just about round - and for this barrel, exactly bore size less .001" one way. It has a .398" bore.
I then shot the top right target from the bench with the oblong balls from my DC mould. These were obviously oblong so I measured them at .392" X .400". The other cavity went .400X.400. Do you know what a pain it is to cast only one cavity form an iron DC mould? This bull was also off the bench, same powder charge and patch and then used the oblong balls on the bottom right target, same load only fired the 5 shtos, offhand.
The reason for this test, was due to some fellas here thinking it didn't matter what the actual accuracy of a load was "because I'm only shooting offhand". These two simple targets show how a less accurate load effects your offhand accuracy as well. Note the 1/2" group on the middle bull, compared to the 1 1/2" group on the top left target. That's bench then offhand. Then, with a less accurate load of 1 1/2" top right bull vs the offhand 3" bottom right target group. If the load is not accurate off the bench, it is even less accurate when fired offhand.
Now, truth be known, it takes training to shoot well off a bench just as it takes training to shoot well offhand. Taylor is a prime example of someone who used to shoot better offhand than off a bench- really. Now, he's learning to shoot better from a rest and able to take advantage of it's benefits towards load development.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP4231701.jpg&hash=7189947beaec0288613387eb7a7affcac5bca362)
This target (sorry .45 GM bl. 60" twist) was shot to test various charges with LehighValley lube as Leehigh Valley lube's accuracy failed with the lighter charge capable of being used with water based lubes. Normal prior to this was 62gr. 3F with spit or WWWF.
I had already found that heavier powder charges were necessary with this very slippery lube. During this day's shooting, the bore was cleaned, not just wiped, before the top right and bottom bull was shot. By the second dirty shot I could usually see the hole developing.
As you can see by the sight drawing, I was trying a slightly different rear sight shape. The 4" bull sat quite nicely in the wide part of the V, but I sould see light on each side of the blade, below the bull. Seemed to work, but with those dang fliers!
In cleaning the bore after the first 15 shots, I used 3 wet patches then 5 drying ones. This was only the second time I'd tried LHV in this barrel and wasn't sure how it was doing, but it seemed quite consistant. This was the changed "new OxYoke formula". I did have a fliers on 4 out of 5 groups, but that quite possibly could have been me.
This test showed me that LHV was quite accurate, as accurate as spit lube, but required 10gr. or more powder to get that accuracy. Dropping the powder charge with LHV by 10gr., to 60, more than doubled group sizes - consistantly.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fe5c1ff82.jpg&hash=06ffd72f6661ea877fae2f82d39e2a26fb1719d3)
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I hope my picture shows up but I wanted to show how the old adage of aim small-miss small hold true. When I try to aim for center of black on any size bull my groups are real big but when I hold on a smaller spot,the center of black at 6-o-clock my groups shrink considerably. If my photo comes through you can see the 5 shot group right above the bottom of the black and the three flyers a half hr. latter when the sun came out from behind the clouds. 40 cal GM barrel with only 55 gr 3f swiss 20/1000 spit lube ticking at 50 yds. My old eyes just couldnt get my gun to shoot worth a hoot aiming at a large aiming spot. I think the diferenting point from black to white is alot easyer to see and aim at. Smylee
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OK so my pics didnt show up but I will try again.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1259.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii545%2Fgaryh47%2FDSCN0592.jpg&hash=f57518632d7d84b0a5661397b4ee7b716c8094c2)
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It's amazing what lighting change does even when you are shooting from under a roof. Having the sun come out on the sights can really cause problems.
When bench shooting out in the sun as on the primitive range, I try to remember to use shaders, if I have them with me.
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Thanks for the input, Daryl and smylee. I had the sun to my back and I shaded the sights, but there was a lot of difference in light on the sights during this test. Also, I might have shot better with a reference spot to hold on, maybe the size of a quarter. I could see the holes when they cut together to make a bigger spot, but wasn't holding on them. From these five targets, the first and last groups seemed to be best, at velocities about 1950 to 2000 fps. I'll shoot these again when the weather is good, and that 55 grains of Swiss 3F load and 55 grains of Goex 2F. Target 3, 70 grains of Swiss 3F, was big with the clean bore, but I don't think that made the difference. It may have been that velocity. When the radio interference started, I had to time my shots between when the chronograph was running because of those radio signals, and that made for some fast shooting until I couldn't win.
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I have made alot of shaders which help to keep a consistant sight picture especialy in the sunshine. This one was made using an old practice engraving plate, cant just throw stuff away ya know.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1259.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii545%2Fgaryh47%2FDSCN0595.jpg&hash=60d4d1618f632a13d8431994668c13bbfbfe076e)
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On the Jan 27th targets, it seemed that 1950 to 2000 fps gave the best accuracy. So I calculated how many feet per second each grain of powder gave, by dividing the velocity by 70 grains of each powder. Then to get 2000 fps with each of these 5 powders, I divided that number by each powder's fps/grain number. See chart below. The composite target on left is all the bullet strikes Jan 27 with no aiming bull. Today, with shaders over the sights, and an aiming bar on each target, all else the same, I shot each powder with the charge calculated to give 2000 fps. I used a damp cleaning patch on the seating jag, thus wiping the bore as I seated each ball. Cleaned the bore after each target, as on the 27th. The composite group is on the right, 26 shots. I aimed better with the bar. I am unable to account for the velocities. I do not think wiping the bore affected them, maybe not even accuracy. Maybe someone else can explain these velocities?
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleComposite.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleJan30.jpg)
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Herb, it looks as though your groups got considerably better with that bar. Go for the best grouping load and cut that bar into 1/4 the size and try again. Looks like your gun is comming around nicley. Smylee
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Thanks, Maven. I should have said "IBM type", mine is also a Dell with Windows Vista. Don't know if this works on an Apple. .
"Command +" enlarges Mac at least with Firefox
Dan
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To get back to normal on a PC- ctrl - until it reduces size by size, or ctrl 0 and it does goes back to normal in one click.
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So I went out yesterday and shot Daryl and Smylee's loads. Fitted better sight shaders. Coned the muzzle enough that a ,395 ball and .010 patch sit down flush with thumb pressure. Made a bigger target aiming bar. First I shot my 77.5 grains of Goex 2F to get a good velocity reading. Then went to Smylee's 55.0 grains of Goex 2F. If my grouping isn't as good as yours, I need better sighting. Cleaned the bore after each group, but no wiping between shots. Then to Daryl's 55.0 grains of Swiss 3F. First ball was from a separate lot and loaded very hard. That is why I kept shooting to see what would happen. On Target 4, I ran out of .015 patches, thus four shots. Target 5 I used .010 OxYoke which gave higher velocity.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleBench.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleFeb1.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleComp2-1.jpg)
I will make a new rear sight and think I can eliminate the vertical stringing. The sky was clouded and made it hard to see the aiming bar. I'll make it thicker.
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Herb,now that you have your crown worked over you might try using some thicker patchs and the 55+ gr. of 3f swiss and that 395 ball. I have a couple of GM 40s that I use 400 balls with 20/1000 patchs and they dont distort the ball when I load and shoot real good. Might be worth a try. Smylee
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My .40 has a .398" bore, with wide lands, narrow grooves. My .395" mold casts .398" X .397" - when my data says .395" - THAT's the ball.
I also have DC mould that has only one good cavity casting .400" X .400". At one time, I thought perhaps that ball, bring .002" larger than the bore and using the .019" stretchy twill that's 100% cotton, shot better.
Since I'm running out of that material, I've tested every swatch of material I have with the .400" balls and they load and shoot just fine - including the .0225", 10oz. denim. With the .398"X.397" balls, I've also used the .023" red/white/light blue striped ticking that has a dark blue background. They seem to shoot very well with it as well.
My .40 calibre target's centre bull has a 5 shot group made with 55gr. 3f GOEX and using WinterWWFluid and oil. I've found this stuff to shoot pretty much identically with spit.
I've also found that 55gr. 2F GOEX shoots just about identically in the .40 and that decent accuracy also seems to show on your 55gr. 2f target, Herb. I'd re-shoot that load with a more distinct bull - and try a thicker patching as well. I'm not sure why you are having difficulty loading the thicker combinations- perhaps you're runnning dryer patches than we use?
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Thanks for the comments. The reason I coned the muzzle was that a patched ball sat on the crown and would fall off if I wasn't careful. I coned it enough that the ball would stay put while I reached for the short starter. I tried some old pillow ticking I have, mikes about .0215, but could not hand start a .395 ball. Would actually have had to use a hammer to start it, and none along and no rock handy, either. I cut my patches about 1 inch square with a rotary cutter and like to pre-wet them with my lube, squeeze the bunch together, 10 or 15 of them, and put them in a cap can for use as I need them. But they curled too much and unraveled. Round patches would work better, and I have gasket punches to cut them. So the square ones I used work better if I wet them as I use them. I use a mixture of Murphy Oil Soap, 91% alcohol and hydrogen peroxide in a nasal spray or eye drop bottle, squeezing out enough to wet the patch. Have used this mixture, less the hydrogen peroxide, for years, adding the latter for cleaning. But then the function of the "lube" is actually to clean the bore, so I use it.
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With less than really tight loads, Murphy's Oil Soap has shown to produce a brownish, tar-like residue in the grooves - according to some of our members here. Taylor still uses Murphys without problems - but he's using tighter loads than those with problems- without using a hammer or mallet.
A starter with some sort of knob (enlarged end) on it makes seating the ball easier with just a smack of the palm - no hammer, mallet or rock is needed.
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I've used some concoction of Murphy Oil Soap for a few years and never had any trouble with it. Even tried it full strength for a few shots, but decided thinned was better. I tried to seat a .395 grain ball with a wet .215 old pillow ticking patch in my shop last night, no powder, expecting to easily pull the ball after it seated. Had to hammer it into the bore, then tried to pull it, only about 4" in. Took me half an hour to get the durned thing out. Enough of that!
I made a new sight, using a .100 hole, planning to cut the top of the hole off. Checked it today, shooting at the bottom right target. I got that hole right where I wanted it. It covers about 22" at 50 yards, covering four aiming bars. I think I'll drill it out larger so I can see more. Used 55 grains of Goex 2F with five different patchings, results below. Had a damp patch on the seating jag so wiped the bore after each shot, and cleaned the bore after each target.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleFeb4.jpg)
Composite group of 26 shots. The GI is 100 % cotton sateen from a fatigue jacket.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleFeb4Comp.jpg)
First shot from a clean bore is usually a lot faster and lower, based on all targets shot in this series, thus this wild group.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleBest.jpg)
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That bottom one looks a lot better. I see the balls measure .393", yet with a .020" patch, are too tight? The blls must be harder than pure lead - must be. I showed Taylor last time I had my .40 out, that the crown I have will allow seating without using a starter, just pushing with one hand on a choked up rod. No smack with my palm and definitely no hammering, tapping, or pounding. Too they pull very easily.
Something is very different between the balls and patches you are using, compared to what we're used to applying. No one here needs to pound anything even with their thicker patching and balls that are only .005" undersize to the bore, or larger. You can see that by the videos we've made. Maybe the bore is not smooth?
Just about everyone here uses a .020" or thicker patching and that blue/red/white mattress ticking that I sent to California and Georgia is what 5 of us use now. It shoots wonderfully in every rifle I have as well as the smoothbore. It's .023" or thicker depending on the tool used to measure it, Herb. I think Crispy uses about a .015" or .018" in his smoothbore .54 due to the .526" ball - maybe it's .530"? When he uses that in his GM .50, he has mild fouling problems after about 20 shots. He's still able to load without wiping, but it's getting crunchy. A slightly thicker patch would aleviate that, but he's happy, I guess.
The good news is it's coming together and the aperture (better sigthing) seemed to help a lot.
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I think these are balls that a friend and I cast, him furnishing the lead. I thought it was pure lead, but I cannot seat these balls with a thick patch. The barrel is a Rice, and I expect it to be smooth, though I have not slugged it. Think I'll do that now. Roundball, I have trouble seeing pink, orange and red. So I never use these colors in targets. I think these big groups so far are the loads. If I knew how to make them all shoot into one hole, that is what I'd use. That last load of 55 grains of Goex 2F and the ".015" linen worked great. I called it .014 before, but it seems to measure .015 when I cut it last. I cut that new sight down and will use it next, reshooting the 70 grains of Swiss 3F that gave 2169 fps on 1-27-12 and then on 1-30-12, 64.5 grains gave 2239 fps, same powder, patch and ball both days. No mistakes in the loads. This rifle's first shot from a clean bore is frequently a lot higher in velocity. If I delete the first velocity for both charges, 70 grains gave 2138 fps, spread of 53 fps, and 64.5 grains gave 2225 fps with a spread of 58.
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Herb, I found my Lee 400 mold and will send off some 400RB in mail tomorrow. These are pure lead so you can give them a try and see how it loads and shoots. Smylee
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Thanks, Smylee.
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Today I tested my new rear sight, which has a .010 hole instead of a notch, I hold the front sight centered in the hole (though the top of the hole is cut off).
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleRS.jpg)
This sight works very well for me, best I have come up with.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleHole.jpg)
The day was 35 degrees and windy, quite cold. I shot the .400 balls that Smylee sent me, using 55 grains of Goex 2F and .020 Ox Yoke and .012 linen. Target 1 was fired with no wiping between shots, but bore cleaned after each group. Target 2 was the same but with a damp cleaning patch on the seating jag, thus wiping the bore as I seated the ball. Target 3 was with .012 linen, no wiping. Target 4 was with a cleaning patch on the seating jag.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleFeb9.jpg)
Here is a composite of the 20 shots. The first shot is usually out of the group and higher velocity. No shot was called out. I'll center the rear sight and shoot some more next week, weather permitting.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/WigleComp2-9.jpg)
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It's definitely coming together Herb. The pure lead balls seem to be making a difference. Now, it's merely searching for the best shooting load, once you settle on a patch that gives you clean shooting.
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Very nice groups with Goex 2f. Kinda blows the theory of "3f under 50 cal.",to bits.I shot 50 grs. of 2f Goex in my forty and she loved it.Now I shoot 2f in all my rifles and guns.
2f is for rifles,3f is for pistols-Lynton MacKenzie...Don Getz quotes this one quite often.I like it too.
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I've been following this thread and will only add that many of the folks I know and shoot with, seem to swear by 2f over 3f for their serious target shooting. I'll have to admit, I too have tested the 2f / 3f Goex for target shooting in calibers .40 through .54 and have found that it does seem to give me a better measure of accuracy.
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Because my rifle was grouping 2 inches left at 50 yards, I centered the sights. Here is how I calculated how much to move one. 50 yards times 3 feet is 150 feet times 12 inches is 1800 inches, divided by the sight radius of 35 inches gives 51.4. Two inch desired correction divided by 51.4 gave .039" to move one sight (either front or rear, or half of each). I marked a reference line on the center of the rear sight base at the barrel and then another light mark on the barrel .039 inch to the right. I tapped the rear sight to the line and the sights were set to center, see target below. Today I tested some .400 Rush Creek balls and patching that Smylee Grouch sent me. The balls were very uniform .403-.405 weighing 101 grains. I cut one-inch round patches from .016 pillow ticking and .019 Teflon. I used 70 grains of Swiss 2F. On 1-27-12, Target 4, that load with .395 balls and .015 OxYoke averaged 2047 fps. Today's averaged 2213 fps. I intended next to shoot the same load with .400 balls for comparison but could not seat the ball, having no hammer along.
There is no loading data for Swiss powders, the manufacturer does not supply any. You are on your own. So I substitued volume for volume with Goex powder. When I got home, I weighed 70-grain charges of Swiss powder and got a real surprise. Five averaged 78.04 grains and had a spread of 1.7 grains. Five 70-grain volume charges of Goex 2F aferaged 68.26 grains with a 1.0 grain spread.
So I carefully weighed 55 and 70 grain charges of Goex 3F, 2F, Swiss 3F, 2F and 1 1/2F powders. This is a subject for a separate post, which I will do. But when I go back to test more of Smylee's patches and ball, it will be with weighed charges, 55 grains of Goex 2F and my last Swiss 3F
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/Wigle70Swiss2.jpg)
My Durs Egg lock has a very strong mainspring, but this flint went between 75 and 100 hammer falls. The White Lightning flash hole liner has not been opened up, and the hole is about .052. I use a large paperclip (.045) to pick the vent before every shot, but still had 40 flashes-in-the-pan with a few over 200 shots. Swiss 1 1/2 is hard to light, I have had four FIP in a row with it, till I make it go by tipping the 4F prime into the flash hole.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/ShortFlint.jpg)
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Suggestion, ever since seeing Larry's timing proof showing faster ignition if banked against the vent, I generally do that every shot now. It works and ignition is very fast. For years, the black powder writers have said not to do this & even to bank the powder away from the pan. The writers did not have the sophisticated timing devices Larry has and therefore that advice should not be followed. My own tests show banking against the vent to be good advice, as the barrel's charge is right there, visible through the vent.
Herb - I open the .052" White Lightening hole to 1/16". Time past, I used to open it to .070", but do not do that now.
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The flashes in the pan would diminish or end if I opened the flash hole up, but I am saving that for another test to see if there is a velocity change. I use a very small amount of 4F prime from a charger, perhaps only two or three grains from a quick jab and pay no attention to where it lays in the pan. But to insure certain igniton, I tip the prime into the hole. My hunting rifles all have .070 vents and thus almost no flashes in the pan.
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Back in the time when I was still in the barrel business and attending the shoots at Friendship, I made a rather heavy
barrel in 40 cal., 1/66" twist for Dick Fisher, a cross stick shooter. If I can remember correctly, he was shooting a .400
ball with 80 grains of FFF, don't know about the patching. He brought a target over to my booth to show me. It was
a target with six bulls, top left for practice and five for score. He posted the target and shot one shot at each bull, just
for practice. Every shot was a ten, and he posted the same target the next day and shot one shot at each bull again,
enlarging the previous days holes.............most impressive.......Don
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Absolutely - consistancy, though art a jewel.