AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: frontier gander on February 22, 2012, 07:20:05 AM
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Guys I got a custom barrel that someone put together for a TC Renegade. Zero markings on it. Great looking barrel with what looks like .008 - .010" deep rifling.
The problem I am having though is that the lands measured roughly .534" and the .530" round ball and .018 are impossible to get down this barrel. The patches come out clean after shooting, but by the time i beat the ball down into the throat of the bore, its pretty boogered up.
Some have said to try the .015" or even the .010" patches but I just don't know. That .534" land to land measurement just threw me off.
I even tried the hornady great plains bullets which are a little firm to load in the original factory barrel, but this custom barrel, holy cow! My hand was numb after beating on the short starter.
Thoughts?
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Might try a .526 ball. Just a thought. I'm sure some of the other guys will have some better ideas...Dew
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Is it a six or eight groove barrel? It's difficult to get a land to land measurement unless it is an even number of grooves.
Don
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.530"s with an .018" always loaded fine in my normal T/C factory barrels when I had them so that barrel does seem tight.
As another ball size alternative, I use .520"s in my .54cal smoothbore and I get them from a commercial caster (below)...excellent quality and prices...a lot less than places like Track, and certainly much less than Hornady .520"s.
Eddie May Round Balls
159 Ridley Rd.
Chatsworth, GA 30705
Cellphone = 706-581-8225
(Eddie does not have a website or use Email so you have to call him)
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Guys I got a custom barrel that someone put together for a TC Renegade. Zero markings on it. Great looking barrel with what looks like .008 - .010" deep rifling.
The problem I am having though is that the lands measured roughly .534" and the .530" round ball and .018 are impossible to get down this barrel. The patches come out clean after shooting, but by the time i beat the ball down into the throat of the bore, its pretty boogered up.
Some have said to try the .015" or even the .010" patches but I just don't know. That .534" land to land measurement just threw me off.
I even tried the hornady great plains bullets which are a little firm to load in the original factory barrel, but this custom barrel, holy cow! My hand was numb after beating on the short starter.
Thoughts?
Lyman sells .526 RB moulds or used too.
If the crown is good and the lube an actual lubricant it should not be that difficult. I load heavy patch and balls about .005 under without a starter.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FIMGP0603.jpg&hash=657d44438878f17edbf60eb0c2edef560b30d537)
Swaged balls often have a over sized belt on them.
Dan
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I had the same problem with my trade gun. I went to a .526 ball with a .015 patch and it loads nice and easy with that combination and shoots well too.
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The crown, as Dan brought up is usually the culprit in this situation - or the bore has been shot with pyrodex and allowed to rot a bit. The pits will create fouling traps and a rough surface for loading. The pits caused by perchlorate are sharp edged and will grab a patch, but usually tear it as well. Since they come out in good shape, perhaps the crown just needs a little smoothing.
I like a 'softer' more rounded corner crown, with the edges of the crown a little more rounded than they appear in Dan's picture. Since the barrel will come off easily, chucking it in a lathe, spinning it and just using a bit of wet-or-dry or emery 320grit pressed against the muzzle's crown with your finger will smooth it and make loading tight combinations quite easy. If a lathe is not handy, just clamp it in a vice and use the end of your thumb to press the paper or emery cloth into the muzzle and rotate your hand, every 10 seconds or so, rotate the barrel 90 degrees. This will keep the crown even and centred. Depending on the crown that is already cut, as in Dan's picture, softening, or radiusing that crown may take only 15 seconds or a couple minutes depending on it's condition.
Here, we all use a .005" under ball and a .018" to .0225" patch loading without difficulty. Not wanting to use a .010" or other ridiculous thickness patch is good and seaking advice on how to go about it is also good. All of us use a substancial short starter as well and we all use the rifle's 3/8" or whatever diameter hickory rod.
Note, the horn in this picture holds over 1 1/2 pounds of powder. It is a large horn. The reason we use moose antler (bases) is it is heavy and hard. Note the short stud on the starter handles. We used to just smack the ball into the bore, but I found doing that, reduces accuracy minimally, due to the off centre force moving lead sideways, slightly. Using the stud (hitting the top of the handle with the palm) makes the entry straighter almost like using a bullet starter - but not quite that accurately.
How the ball is started makes a difference and can be noted by using a stip of patch material, pushing or smacking the ball into the bore, with withdrawing it to check how centered the ball was, by the rifling marks. One blow starts the ball - not tap, tap, tap with a hammer or bang bang, bang with a mallet as I've seen in some videos. Hitting the ball more than one blow deforms it's upper surface, albeit the nose is of less importance than it's bottom. Every starter I use, has a cupped end, that causes no damage to the ball.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP1142038.jpg&hash=bea1a13662048b3566aa61eb18b50080e2d15de1)
Smoothing the crown on a muzzle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPB241921.jpg&hash=fb43b47c58922e9ae12ec26065dc2844a8ec6cd8)
.45 and .58 muzzles
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCrowns45and58001.jpg&hash=8435116411ac035a5791872dce63db638231f1b2)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP4242100.jpg&hash=0f35fff27678706dbec920a1646c5e72249d8bbb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP6101154.jpg&hash=720f6c73a05faab17280d0088964d9a962844f35)
All of these crowns allow pressing the patched ball down into the bore with little strain on the rifle's stock, just using a "choked" rod or the short starter stud with the large knob in your hand. I prefer to use the starter as it's faster, easier and pushes a perfectly centred ball down some 6" before putting the rod on it. This helps 'save' the rod from my hamfistedness. (is that a word?)
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Thanks guys, I appreciate the help.
I will try to get a picture of the crown. Its just super tight as heck at that point but once i get past it, its still firm but i can push the load down fine.
I will certainly get some pictures of the crown and let you guys decide on what i should do with it.
New barrel, no rust or pitting, so thats not an issue with the bore.
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8 lands/grooves
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THANK YOU! I spent about 5 minutes total with 220 and 600grit sand paper on the crown and it loaded firmly but did not need the ball starter to pound it down! Will make some new patch lube as well and see if it helps out any.
The crown, as Dan brought up is usually the culprit in this situation - or the bore has been shot with pyrodex and allowed to rot a bit. The pits will create fouling traps and a rough surface for loading. The pits caused by perchlorate are sharp edged and will grab a patch, but usually tear it as well. Since they come out in good shape, perhaps the crown just needs a little smoothing.
I like a 'softer' more rounded corner crown, with the edges of the crown a little more rounded than they appear in Dan's picture. Since the barrel will come off easily, chucking it in a lathe, spinning it and just using a bit of wet-or-dry or emery 320grit pressed against the muzzle's crown with your finger will smooth it and make loading tight combinations quite easy. If a lathe is not handy, just clamp it in a vice and use the end of your thumb to press the paper or emery cloth into the muzzle and rotate your hand, every 10 seconds or so, rotate the barrel 90 degrees. This will keep the crown even and centred. Depending on the crown that is already cut, as in Dan's picture, softening, or radiusing that crown may take only 15 seconds or a couple minutes depending on it's condition.
Here, we all use a .005" under ball and a .018" to .0225" patch loading without difficulty. Not wanting to use a .010" or other ridiculous thickness patch is good and seaking advice on how to go about it is also good. All of us use a substancial short starter as well and we all use the rifle's 3/8" or whatever diameter hickory rod.
Note, the horn in this picture holds over 1 1/2 pounds of powder. It is a large horn. The reason we use moose antler (bases) is it is heavy and hard. Note the short stud on the starter handles. We used to just smack the ball into the bore, but I found doing that, reduces accuracy minimally, due to the off centre force moving lead sideways, slightly. Using the stud (hitting the top of the handle with the palm) makes the entry straighter almost like using a bullet starter - but not quite that accurately.
How the ball is started makes a difference and can be noted by using a stip of patch material, pushing or smacking the ball into the bore, with withdrawing it to check how centered the ball was, by the rifling marks. One blow starts the ball - not tap, tap, tap with a hammer or bang bang, bang with a mallet as I've seen in some videos. Hitting the ball more than one blow deforms it's upper surface, albeit the nose is of less importance than it's bottom. Every starter I use, has a cupped end, that causes no damage to the ball.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP1142038.jpg&hash=bea1a13662048b3566aa61eb18b50080e2d15de1)
Smoothing the crown on a muzzle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPB241921.jpg&hash=fb43b47c58922e9ae12ec26065dc2844a8ec6cd8)
.45 and .58 muzzles
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCrowns45and58001.jpg&hash=8435116411ac035a5791872dce63db638231f1b2)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP4242100.jpg&hash=0f35fff27678706dbec920a1646c5e72249d8bbb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP6101154.jpg&hash=720f6c73a05faab17280d0088964d9a962844f35)
All of these crowns allow pressing the patched ball down into the bore with little strain on the rifle's stock, just using a "choked" rod or the short starter stud with the large knob in your hand. I prefer to use the starter as it's faster, easier and pushes a perfectly centred ball down some 6" before putting the rod on it. This helps 'save' the rod from my hamfistedness. (is that a word?)
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Firmly is 'spot-on'. Glad it worked.
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Shot her with 80gr Pyrodex RS, .530 ball and .010" patch. Patches were shreds but the accuracy was still surprisingly really darn good! I will have to order some .016" pillow tick and then give her another go. Figured out the twist today as well, 1:60 which will be great for patched balls. Coming along slow, but steady.
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Please don't use Pyrodex. The bore will most likely suffer.
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Thats an old wives tale. I've been shooting it since i got into black powder shooting, its never harmed a bore on any of my muzzle loaders. Great powder thats consistent and proves excellent accuracy. Barrels are ruined by poor cleaning and lack of blackpowder knowledge.
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I get my pillow ticking from Wally World. Real inexpensive and I love the look the older woman in the fabric section gives me when she asks what I am making with it. Just remember to wash it to remove the sizing.
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"...Barrels are ruined by poor cleaning and lack of blackpowder knowledge..."
Speaking only for myself, I never had a problem with Pyrodex.
Pyrodex-RS was all I used for 8 years in in .45/.50/.54cal T/C caplocks and bores were always like a mirror. I cleaned with steaming hot soapy water and hot water rinse, being fanatical about keeping a bore 100% squeaky clean, and always assumed that accounted for it.
When I switched to Flintlocks, I had 8-10 pounds of Pyrodex on hand from a year end close out sale and used all that up in duplex/layered loads plinking at the range...(20grns Goex 3F, the rest Pyrodex) and it was always reliable, accurate, etc...used those Flint barrels for right at 10 years.
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As long as there is real black powder around,you need NO artificial powders.
The stuff IS destructive and I know for a fact that it is not always possible to clean a barrel properly. Several years ago,I raised the question about perchlorated powders on the <BP-L>list and because it was considered as a genuine inquiry,the moderators allowed it. There were a number of VERY knowledgeable people that posted answers about the destructive nature of these powders but the really interesting one was that the fumes or smoke are LETHAL and if you want to dispatch yourself,simply get into a pantry or closet and ignite a cup of this stuff and you will quietly leave this life without making a horrible mess to be cleaned up.
REAL black powder can be shipped to your door so there is NO GOOD reason to consider this artficial stuff.
The next subject is "stiff"springs. They are a guaranteed nasty experience waiting to happen.
A spring must be able to flex in both the lower and the upper limbs to work properly and this alone will eleminate a "stiff"spring. There IS a difference between a strong spring and a "stiff" spring but the lock mechanism MUST be designed to accomodate the strong spring.
NONE of them are desgned for a "stiff: spring.
I have seen and had phone calls from people who bought some of the first locks with cast mainsprings wanting me to make new forged springs and I didn't want the work nor the bitching about having to pay for the time it takes to make one. On locks with linked mainsprings,the link or claw,usually the claw on the spring would break due to stiff materials being used in them and then the spring came down hard and took a strip of wood out from under the lock mortise.I saw a picture of such an event and it was a spectacular stock with more stripes per inch than I ever saw.
The current discussion on frizzen springs and rebounders that break flints is interesting.
I have in my hand as I write this,a Jim Chambers late Ketland. I made a linked mechanism for it and have no problem with rebounds.The flint is a white agate from Guenter Stifter in Germany of about 5/8" and it impacts the frizzen about 1/2"below the top and does its scraping and releases about 1/4"from the pan cover. It throws more than enough sparks and NO rebounds at all that can be seen with the naked eye. I have made 4 of these locks and there is nothing wrong with them that has been reported. I think they may be a bit picky as to positioning the flint and in this case it is flat side up. One thing about these German agates,you can tell which side IS the flat side and they are uniform in size.
Enough for now.
Bob Roller
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"...simply get into a pantry or closet and ignite a cup of this stuff..."
;D ;D
Thanks for the heads up, I'll be sure never to do that...walking across the street without looking both ways can get you killed too
;D ;D
In practical terms, I'm pretty sure that a huge number of metric tons of Pyrodex have been successfully used by 100s of thousands (millions?) of people over the past 25 years with no problems at all...still in wide spread use today
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What I repeated on my posting was about suicide,not some distracted person getting hit by a motor vehicle or worse,as happened to a local year old two weeks ago,walking on a busy coal hauler's railroad right of way while listening to a radio.
As far as the Pyrodex is concerned.I don't think I have ever seen a can of it at a shooting match anywhere. Also the "metric tons" and the huge number of people? The past 25 years?
Not likely. I will rely on the opinions of chemists who know far more than I about these ersatz powders.
Bob Roller
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Correction.I meant to say a local 16 year old who was on a coal haulers railroad right of way.
The horror was witnessed by grade schoolers waiting on a school bus.
Bob Roller
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Have a friend in Missouri who used nothing by Pyrodex. I've watched him clean his TC's after every day out hunting (guided here in BC) before he'd do anything else. He used hot, virtually boiling hot water & soap just as some have suggested is necessary with perchlorate powders. He always dried and oiled his guns. His gun was a few years old when I first saw it and the bore looked 'patchy' to me in looking down the muzzle. The first shot was ALWAYS difficult to load for him, but after that, it got easier - I assume as the goop ox yoke used filled the rough spots.
He then took both is barrels to a local gun smith and had them re-blued as the bluing was wearing. To do this, the 'smith' pulled the plugs, then blued the barrels. Once the plugs were out, it was easy to see why loading was difficult for that first shot- the bores were very badly pitted at the breech, up to about 3/4's of the barrel's length - both of them.
The owner phoned me asking if if thought the bluing had caused the pits and I said no- gun barrels are blued every day, and when done correctly as this fellow undoubtedly did, the process does not ruin the barrels. He said he was going to sue the gun smith as he was sure the fellow had ruined his two barrels. I told him it was probably due to the perchlorate's in the pyrodex. Chlorates are excessively corrosive- chlorate's are who primers used to be corrosive- anyone besides Bob and I remember corrosive primers- how much perchlorate do you think is in a primer, as opposed to 17% of your powder charge? Well, the barrel owner asked more peopleabout his barrels and then didn't try to sue the gun smith.
He did have Taylor make him a couple new rifles. One of them had 2 barrels. Taylor instructed him NOT to use Pyrodex. He did and ended up rotting a hole right through the breech, which cut wood in the barrel channel. The hold was amazing. He send the gun back for warantee work and both bores are badly pitted - ruined/destroyed.
This fellow appeared to be cleaning them just as RB said - yet rotted not only his bores, but right through a breech- at that spot, a good 1/8" of steel eaten through. Also, what was evident, was that the pits are craters- with sharp edges, like the material, the steel, was dissolved from that spot. Some very VERY deep.
The fellow wrote to Mike Nesbit, who told him that all the damage to his gun was caused by the perchlorate's in the Pyrodex. That, Dan Pharris's and Mad Monk's teachings are good enough for me.
So - use it if you want. I sure won't.
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how one man treats his muzzys after shooting is his way. All of my bores look brand new. My flintlock though does have a tiny bit of pitting down where the Goex sat for a week after i went out of town without being able to clean it.
Goex is hard for me to keep in stock, i do a LOT of shooting and pyrodex is been some darn good stuff over the years.
Come cleaning time i always flush the barrel twice. Doesnt make sense to use one bucket full of warm soapy salt water and then put the gun away in storage.
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Yep, Pyrodex is about the worst thing you could put in your gun.
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80gr 2F Goex, Not bad bad, but not good IMO.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm53%2Fthepowerbeltforum%2F54%2520Renegade%2F100_0584.jpg&hash=4c9ee1b0eae291ad4bfe87fef9c4ccc24b129c3a)
90gr with .015" patch and a .018 patch used as a buffer to protect the main patch. I should'a stopped after shot 4 as the bore was getting tight.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm53%2Fthepowerbeltforum%2F54%2520Renegade%2F100_0585.jpg&hash=157cf79531b5d305179a037504c190a0a94f09d2)
Left: .015" patch with 80gr Goex 2f. Right: .015" patch with 90gr Goex and protected with a buffer patch. A big improvement and once i buy some .54cal wads, the patches should look pristine.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm53%2Fthepowerbeltforum%2F54%2520Renegade%2F100_0587.jpg&hash=fee08299920350dcc8612471122cfa4e3c7b7074)
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I have a Lyman GPR that I started off shooting Pyrodex in. EVERY TIME it was shot It was cleaned within an hour with boiling water and dishwashing soap. I mean cleaned and cleaned again, shinny bright. The ne xt day there would be rust in the barrel. Cleaning it again with cold water and patching it dry and then using Balistol did nothing to stop the rusting. I am waiting for a new barrel as I type this!!!!!!!
Do what you want its your money but I will NEVER put anything but real black powder down the barrels of my muzzleloaders!!!!!!! FRJ
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IMO, for every so called horror story about Pyrodex, there are thousands upon thousands of correct and successful uses of it and that's undeniable.
I myself used 50+ pounds of it during my caplock years before switching to Flintlocks and Goex.
My solution with Pyrodex was simple...just as it is with Goex:
100% proper cleaning
100% proper drying
100% proper lubing
Bores were still like mirrors 10 years later.
So I'll be from Missouri that a barrel simply goes away due to using a certain powder.
They go away if they are not 100% properly cleaned, dried, and lubed.
I don't mean 95% cleaned, or 98% cleaned...I mean 100%...period.
Think about it...if there is "zero" residue left, by definition there is nothing left to corrode the steel.
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been using good ol pyrodex since 1999 and never had an issue with it. Goex ive had issues where my barrels will lightly rust in the bores after cleaning a few days down the road. I figured that was my fault for not getting all the moisture out.
Birchwood casey gun scrubber down the bore after initial cleaning/drying and zero trouble with any powder since then.
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Real black powder is all I have ever used and rank these perchlorated powders right up there with aluminum butt plates and other modern gimmicks. The substitute powders fill a need that never existed and still doesn't.
Bob Roller
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As long as there is real black powder around,you need NO artificial powders.
The stuff IS destructive and I know for a fact that it is not always possible to clean a barrel properly. Several years ago,I raised the question about perchlorated powders on the <BP-L>list and because it was considered as a genuine inquiry,the moderators allowed it. There were a number of VERY knowledgeable people that posted answers about the destructive nature of these powders but the really interesting one was that the fumes or smoke are LETHAL and if you want to dispatch yourself,simply get into a pantry or closet and ignite a cup of this stuff and you will quietly leave this life without making a horrible mess to be cleaned up.
REAL black powder can be shipped to your door so there is NO GOOD reason to consider this artficial stuff.
The next subject is "stiff"springs. They are a guaranteed nasty experience waiting to happen.
A spring must be able to flex in both the lower and the upper limbs to work properly and this alone will eleminate a "stiff"spring. There IS a difference between a strong spring and a "stiff" spring but the lock mechanism MUST be designed to accomodate the strong spring.
NONE of them are desgned for a "stiff: spring.
I have seen and had phone calls from people who bought some of the first locks with cast mainsprings wanting me to make new forged springs and I didn't want the work nor the bitching about having to pay for the time it takes to make one. On locks with linked mainsprings,the link or claw,usually the claw on the spring would break due to stiff materials being used in them and then the spring came down hard and took a strip of wood out from under the lock mortise.I saw a picture of such an event and it was a spectacular stock with more stripes per inch than I ever saw.
The current discussion on frizzen springs and rebounders that break flints is interesting.
I have in my hand as I write this,a Jim Chambers late Ketland. I made a linked mechanism for it and have no problem with rebounds.The flint is a white agate from Guenter Stifter in Germany of about 5/8" and it impacts the frizzen about 1/2"below the top and does its scraping and releases about 1/4"from the pan cover. It throws more than enough sparks and NO rebounds at all that can be seen with the naked eye. I have made 4 of these locks and there is nothing wrong with them that has been reported. I think they may be a bit picky as to positioning the flint and in this case it is flat side up. One thing about these German agates,you can tell which side IS the flat side and they are uniform in size.
Enough for now.
Bob Roller
Young fella you are truly an asset to this site and thank you. I have also seen 2 barrels ruined by the Pyrodex - not mine happily....
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RB - that's a lot of people happily using Pyrodex - I do think it's also quite an exaggeration - thousands and thousands for every barrel ruined? That isn't possible, considering we know that many hundreds have been ruined - which is actually undeniable. of course, anyone can deny anything, so nothing is undeniable.
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A lot of people have ruined their flintlocks by using goex.
The misguided are always going to ruin it because for some of them, its just another season to hunt and they have no knowledge whatsoever about muzzle loading.
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A lot of people have ruined their flintlocks by using goex.
The misguided are always going to ruin it because for some of them, its just another season to hunt and they have no knowledge whatsoever about muzzle loading.
Why would Goex ruin a flintlock? Would this be from improper cleaning or from not using a rod bore guide while loading?
Mike
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I spoke with Chris Hodgdon last year about this and he just laughed it off and said that he answers hundreds of emails from people asking if pyrodex is as corrosive as their goex powder. It is NO MORE corrosive than Goex powder. If you don't clean the fouling from the bore with either powders, they will both eat your barrel.
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RB - that's a lot of people happily using Pyrodex - I do think it's also quite an exaggeration - thousands and thousands for every barrel ruined? That isn't possible, considering we know that many hundreds have been ruined - which is actually undeniable. of course, anyone can deny anything, so nothing is undeniable.
I have never talked to a professional in the field of BP firearms that would agree with RBs assessment.
The idea that chlorate powders are no more corrosive than BP is laughable and is easily debunked with simple tests anyone can conduct. But nobody seems to want to try it.
There are many discussions on this site those who are interested should read:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.0
specifically Mad Monk.
The reply 19 here again MM
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3986.15
And others by him
Then http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.msg78777#msg78777
More MM posts.
then
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8057.0
There are others but lunch is long over....
Polish a steel bar or sheet about s foot long x 2" to give a uniform finish that has no remaining oil or grease.
Cover one end and flash maybe 10 grains of BP on the other end, now cover the BP fouling and flash a similar amount of Pyrodex on the other. Age 2-3 weeks in a dry place, like a shelf in a shop perhaps.
Then check for corrosion.
Dan
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Lynton McKenzie did the sxs test with a set of barrels that had been reamed too much in the process of trying to get rid of pits. He fired Pyrodex on one side and Goex BP on the other and at the end of the week,the Pyrodex side had been destroyed by corrosion and the BP side could have been saved IF the barrels had been worth saving to begin with. As I said earlier,black powder can be delivered to the front door and there is NO need for artificials to even be considered.
The answers those chemists gave on BP-L were real eye openers to me and I am grateful to the list owner for allowing the discussion when it was prohibited to begin with. Sometimes,a sincere inquiry and a real "want to know" attitude will work wonders.
Bob Roller
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Back 10 or more years ago I had a chunk gun load consisting of 20 grs of pistol pyrodex on the bottom & 100grs of pyrodex "select"?? (I think that's the right word, it's been a while) on top.
If I cleaned right it was no problem. My gut feeling is that if left uncleaned it would get ugly. For whatever that's worth. If we drug a gun home on a rope behind our truck it would screw it up also. So we don't. We clean BP or pyrodex properly & there ain't no problem.
Most of the war stories start with a barrel left uncleaned from last years hunting. And of course the thing is junk. I've seen both BP & pyro. where this year long abuse destroyed a gun.
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Keep it civil, boys and girls.
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Back 10 or more years ago I had a chunk gun load consisting of 20 grs of pistol pyrodex on the bottom & 100grs of pyrodex "select"?? (I think that's the right word, it's been a while) on top.
If I cleaned right it was no problem. My gut feeling is that if left uncleaned it would get ugly. For whatever that's worth. If we drug a gun home on a rope behind our truck it would screw it up also. So we don't. We clean BP or pyrodex properly & there ain't no problem.
Most of the war stories start with a barrel left uncleaned from last years hunting. And of course the thing is junk. I've seen both BP & pyro. where this year long abuse destroyed a gun.
I would bet, based on my experience, the barrel shot with Chlorate powder to any extent can be identified as such by looking IF the observer knows what to look for. The "dwell time" between shots is enough, over time, to cause problems.
If the stuff is cleaned like for BP I KNOW the barrel will show it if used much.
Debreeching or borescope would tell the tale. Its POSSIBLE that the barrel is unpitted but I would bet that it was. Often its very tiny craters when magnified that may not be noticed unless the observer knows what he is looking at with the naked eye. Once the observer understands what he is looking at its instantly identifiable.
Proponents just love to assume that the people failed to clean the gun correctly. While I am sure this is the case in some instances. Its not the case in ALL and conscientious bore cleaners still have problems.
A guy I know pretty well shot the stuff in an original 1869 TD in 50-70. It took a YEAR to stop the after rust. He finally stripped the barreled action from the wood and took it in the shower and heavily flushed it and he got the salts washed away and it finally quit rusting.
He was highly experienced at the time, probably 20 years ago, and certainly was no neophyte.
People that think the stuff is no worse than BP need to look at the various military rifles shot with milspec corrosive primers. These have perhaps a 1/10 of a grain of "active ingredient" Potassium Chlorate the chlorate powders are 17% +- Potassium PERchlorate. Both of which produce virtually the same result on steel. It destroys the iron at the molecular level and will even eat "crawdad holes" in barrels and breeches. This has ALL been seen in disassembled firearms since the advent of this stuff.
For reference I have owned and or worked on rifles that were shot with BP and not cleaned for an entire Silhouette match to preserve a consistent bore condition. This means being left "dirty" for several hours at time. These barrels do not rust. I know of guns that have been in service for long periods and shot 10s of thousands of rounds with BP loads and the bores are still perfect.
This simply is not possible with powders with Chlorate components. The fouling is just too aggressive and difficult to remove adequately. Wiping between shots may actually increase the problem unless ALL the fouling is removed as soon as the wiping is started. Wetting the stuff activates it. Even Hoppe's original #9 (not 9 Plus) will cause it to pit a barrel seriously if left uncleaned overnight with #9 in the bore. A common practice with non-corrosive powders.
Dan
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I'm with Dan. Back in 94, I wrote to Sam Fadala about the troubles I was having with P.
Clean the gun, then come back the next day, and get a dirty patch, clean till patch comes out OK
Next day......same thing, a dirty patch. I did that for 4 days, saving the first patch down the bore and stapling it to a sheet of paper . You could see the progression as the patches got lighter [cleaner]. The 5th days patch still showed colour . Sam told me that he had heard similar stories. Something about the stuff getting into the pores of the metal [ for lack of a better description ] I shot at matches every 2nd week, and cleaned my gun when I got home an hour or 2 later. That probably didn't help. When I switched to Goex, I no longer had the problem. If you are using P. , I;d make sure you clean really really well,.....and then do it again in a day or 2
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my pyrodex bores are a squeaky clean as when they were new. Learn how to clean your muzzy.
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Guys,
I have used Pyrodex CTG in my BP cartridge guns a lot and have experienced some pretty bad corrosion problems. Iit seems that anywhere the smoke from this stuff comes in contact with metal, there is a potential for some serious problems. Since then I have gotten both older and wiser and have repented of substitute BP and now only use the real stuff.
Jim
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Pyrodex is for in lines and muzzleloaders built on an M 4 lower receiver. Why are we worried about what we build if we don't care what we feed these Longrifles? Next ya"ll will be extolling the virtues of polyester patches, Lead substitutes and Picanniny rails for buckhorn sights.
Danny
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Jim,
You have discovered another way to brown a barrel. Levity aside,does anyone want to breathe these fumes? Being a bonehead when it comes to remembering dates,I don't recall the year I posted that inquiry to BP-L about perclorated powders but maybe I can find it again. One of the replies I got was that the fumes can be bad news. There is enough of that with out inflicting it on ourselves.
Bob Roller
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I'll get in my lick on this dead horse by saying that I satisfied myself not too long after Pyrodex came out that it was not something for me. Extreme spreads of 200fps or more depending on ambient and gun temperature, hard to light, etc, but the single thing that convinced me to never use it was a test done using a hawkeye borescope. Before and after pictures showed a mirror-like bore turned into something like 800grit emery paper after just 50 rounds. Now, that rifle would probably still shoot good enough that nobody would notice the difference shooting offhand or even from a bench with open sights, but I aint gonna put nothin in my barrel that I believe will eat it up. Besides, black powder is so much more consistent and usable in terms of accuracy and performance that I have no need to try to fix something that aint broke. :)
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Frontier, I know how to clean my guns. At my age, I also have learned that it is pretty much a waste of time trying to change anyone's mind, so I no longer try. I simply gave the details of my experience with P.
I don't think that anyone can deny that P. requires a more aggressive cleaning procedure than B.P.
Regarding the "smoke" when firing P. - if you read Mad Monk's postings, you will see that what you are breathing contains cyanide.
You are obviously very happy with the results you get with the stuff,and that is fine. But that does not change the facts re the components/characteristics of P.
One thing which is not often discussed is the accuracy potential of the various powders. At the usual muzzleloader distances, there are those whoclaim great accuracy with P. Perhaps the greatest test of accuracy potential is the 1000 yd matches. I have shot in these matches with both muzzleloaders and BPCR and I am not aware of anyone who has ever done well with P. I tried it in my .45-100 and finally got half decent groups by duplexing with 4 gr of 4227. But it was not close to the accuracy I get with black p. Case life was also drastically reduced.
If P was all I could get, I would use it, but not by choice.
Have fun.
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Jim,
You have discovered another way to brown a barrel. Levity aside,does anyone want to breathe these fumes? Being a bonehead when it comes to remembering dates,I don't recall the year I posted that inquiry to BP-L about perclorated powders but maybe I can find it again. One of the replies I got was that the fumes can be bad news. There is enough of that with out inflicting it on ourselves.
Bob Roller
Mad Monk states that Cyanide gas is a byproduct of combustion.
Dan
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my pyrodex bores are a squeaky clean as when they were new. Learn how to clean your muzzy.
If you lived in Montana or Wyoming we might meet and I could look at your bores with some 10-20 power magnification. Honestly, and I have been down this path with others, many, people, most it would seem, will not notice the damage done by chlorate powders until it becomes extreme. Or until someone points to the pits and says "these are pits from chlorate powder use". Potassium Perchlorate in this case. They start out microscopic and only a subtle change in the appearance of the material is the give away to the naked eye.
Typically extensive use of perchlorate powders will make it difficult to impossible to shoot BP without wiping every shot.
I started shooting MLs 10 years before you were born. I have used perchlorate powder in "company guns" (before you were born) when I was working in the BPCR industry but never in my own. Having worked in the BP firearms industry in one way or another for decades I don't feel that being lectured on the cleaning of barrels by someone with limited experience is appropriate.
Dan
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Frontier, I know how to clean my guns. At my age, I also have learned that it is pretty much a waste of time trying to change anyone's mind, so I no longer try. I simply gave the details of my experience with P.
I don't think that anyone can deny that P. requires a more aggressive cleaning procedure than B.P.
Regarding the "smoke" when firing P. - if you read Mad Monk's postings, you will see that what you are breathing contains cyanide.
You are obviously very happy with the results you get with the stuff,and that is fine. But that does not change the facts re the components/characteristics of P.
One thing which is not often discussed is the accuracy potential of the various powders. At the usual muzzleloader distances, there are those whoclaim great accuracy with P. Perhaps the greatest test of accuracy potential is the 1000 yd matches. I have shot in these matches with both muzzleloaders and BPCR and I am not aware of anyone who has ever done well with P. I tried it in my .45-100 and finally got half decent groups by duplexing with 4 gr of 4227. But it was not close to the accuracy I get with black p. Case life was also drastically reduced.
If P was all I could get, I would use it, but not by choice.
Have fun.
Duplexing smokeless and Pryrodex or over compressing it is EXTREMELY dangerous.
Its not BP and duplexing may produce "pressure excusions" that might be very unpleasant even in a modern made gun. Over compressing also changes the burn rate and at least one vintage BPCR suffered a burst barrel from this.
10% duplex in a 45-70 with black will exceed Lyman's pressure limit for the TD Springfield and Pyrodex is a long way from BP in makeup.
It also becomes very "fast" I have been told of the moisture content drops below 1%.
It will also, according to the patent papers, function as an explosive at 20% water. IE as a slurry.
Its pretty strange stuff.
If no black were available for by BPCRs I would shoot smokeless and step the velocity up to 1600+.
If I could not get black for my FLs I would make it.
The trick, soon, will be buying lead for bullets. Its at the top of the hit list right now.
Dan
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Dan, Thanks for your posts. I don't recommend anyone duplex P. and I was extremely careful, [ x 10 ! ] Never went over 4 g 4227 in a 45 2.6 case, and 1/16th compression. Not relevant to our Longrifle discussions anyway .....I only brought it up in regard to the accuracy potential. I guess my point is that the stuff is rather lacking in more than one regard. The only claim that can be made by those who champion it's use, is that it is easier to ship, and therefore more available in some areas. That can be remedied with some planning and perhaps bulk purchasing. Shipping aside, where I live, P .is actually moe expensive than BP
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Guys I got a custom barrel that someone put together for a TC Renegade. Zero markings on it. Great looking barrel with what looks like .008 - .010" deep rifling.
The problem I am having though is that the lands measured roughly .534" and the .530" round ball and .018 are impossible to get down this barrel. The patches come out clean after shooting, but by the time i beat the ball down into the throat of the bore, its pretty boogered up.
Some have said to try the .015" or even the .010" patches but I just don't know. That .534" land to land measurement just threw me off.
I even tried the hornady great plains bullets which are a little firm to load in the original factory barrel, but this custom barrel, holy cow! My hand was numb after beating on the short starter.
Thoughts?
You have a couple of choices.
Lee has .527 moulds at the below link.
http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=13124 (http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=13124)
Another is to buy an original T/C Renegade barrel that someone has taken off to put on a custom replacement. There may be someone that has such a barrel on this site.
Either way you should not have that much difficult loading a PRB down the barrel.
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flinter, its all fixed now, the .015" patch and coning the muzzle did wonders. She shooters a heck of a lot tighter than any tc barrel ive owned. Plus it has a slower twist at 1:60 VS TC's shallow groove 1:48 twist.
I should'a stopped after shot 4 as the bore was getting tight with that goex 2f.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm53%2Fthepowerbeltforum%2FLyman%2FDSCN0217.jpg&hash=f1ceeb679760ff6601900933be6177d35e42978d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm53%2Fthepowerbeltforum%2F54%2520Renegade%2F100_0585.jpg&hash=157cf79531b5d305179a037504c190a0a94f09d2)
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That .527 ball/mold is a handy thing to have. I use it for my .54 smoothbore.
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Gander,
If you are only getting 4 shots and the bore is getting tight,what do you think the problem is? I shoot all day long without wiping and definitely no "bore tightening"! Something's amiss.
If you are .535 land to land and you have 10 thou grooves,that means you are .555 groove to groove,no? Now, if you are using a .015 patch ( multiplied times 2).Now add .030 to the bore size. That gives you .565,correct? Which means you are getting only five thou compression in the grooves. Not enough for a rifle,me thinks.
What I would do is go to a .526 RB or a tad smaller(.520) and use a minimum .025 thou ,10 ounce denim patch. With 2f Goex,a good sloppy wet patch, you WILL shoot all day without wiping.( bore must not have ANY pits) Pits will snag your patch and all goes out the window.
All this two finger loading pressure is Hollywood Daniel Boone/Davy Crockett nonsense. Accurate rifles need compression to self clean and shoot accurately. No BS!
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LB's are my findings as well - but if you want looser, easier loading combinations, go for it.
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shes shootin nice and tight so i am happy. I only used olive oil this time around, i most likely will add some beeswax to the mix later on. I have a few more new guns to sight in first and then i can work on this one. Gives TC some time to get a hammer screw out to me. A 2 month wait they said! :o
A sloppy wet patch doesnt sound good for hunting 9 days in the mountains, but i agree, it certainly makes a huge difference on the range.
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We use oil for hunting - mink oil or neetsfoot oil - the sloppy-wet patch is for trail walks and other 'shooting games'.
The sloppy-wet WWWF+Oil patch actually loads exactly the same as an oiled patch with Mink oil or Neetsfoot oil in all of my guns.
The water based "lube" is cheaper (for high volume shooters) and doesn't make your hands oily and stink of the oil when shooting upwards of 50 to 80 shots a day. There is no need to 'wipe' the bore with any of the lubes we use, including spit.
I suspect lubes that stay in the bore and stick in the corners of the rifling as a solid, ie: bore butter, would require some sort of cleaning or wiping with a solvent to restore accuracy, if one tried to shoot 50 to 80 shots in a day. An old time cast bullet shooter over on the Cast Bullet Assoc. forum told me his TC's bore would foul with bore butter in as few as 15 to 20 shots and accuracy was reduced. I suspect the combination of shallow button rifled barrels and the heavy lip balm grease didn't get along. I guess deeper grooves would shoot longer would it and it will fill in some pits as well. He had to use solvents to disolve it. I got him off the bore butter and converted to Mink oil and cutting his own patches and he was happy after that. Maybe the reason for his problem was due to his patches- maybe not- but his problems were solved and he reveled in being able to shoot all day without accuracy loss- and - no wiping.
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Shot her again today but used 100gr 2F Goex, home cast .530 balls and .018 pillow tick patches. Man what a roar! Grouped decent, but i mainly wanted to check the patches. Patches I recovered were in perfect shape and zero ripping/frizzing on the edges. Group was okay for 60 yards but I think I do not like these sights at all, mainly the front sight.
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Frizzing, or getting frazzled on the edge is normal and an indicator of muzzle pressure- is all. Even the .69, my lowest pressure gun, causes fraying of the edges of the patch. It's where the patch seals the bore, that there can not be any damage to the material. If you can re-lube the spent patch and shoot it time after time without losing accuracy or hurting it, it's a good patch in my opinion.