AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: vtbuck223 on April 04, 2012, 07:47:11 PM
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Just an observation and a question. very often when I visit British collecting sites I see original firearms that are bright and shiny without an ounce of patina...etc. Just as often... when an untouched piece is posted and follow up pictures are added....they have wiped them clean. Is it real or just my imagination? Do they have a different preference across the pond? I would have asked the question on their site...but I didn't want to offend ;D
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I believe that they refer to that as 'museum polish' and everyone in those collecting venues seems to do it. From matchlocks, to wheelocks, to flintlocks, in the Tower of London Collection, all are bright and shiny. After awhile you get used to the glare.
Dick
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I noticed that when visiting a number of museums and castles in England and Scotland last year. As a result, to me these pieces seem to lack character and appear somewhat sterile. To each his own, I guess...
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I think this preference even extends into Continental Europe to some degree. I actually find it a little frustrating and disturbing. As a great example, look up the famous late 17th century Monlong pistols in the Royal Armories Collections. They include photos of before and after work had been done. Surfaces had been thoroughly cleaned, corrosion removed, barrels blued etc. Apparently they think nothing of it. I have owned a very good 17th century pistol where this practice was employed to some degree. Seems many Europeans and English have little appreciation for "patina" from what I can see. Sorry if I offend anyone. This certainly doesn't apply to all.
Jim
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One of my friends calls it "European Museum Bright." You could be blinded by the displays in the Musee de la Armee in Paris. It has long been the style, though I think attitudes are changing, at least slightly. One odd, or at least interesting thing is that the English dealers I know who specialize in American arms generally follow American practice but to a large extent that hasn't penetrated beyond their customers...
I once passed on a military wheelock pistol at the London Arms Fair for just that reason. The dealer found it hard to believe he'd have had a sale if he'd just left the !@*%&@ thing alone.
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I think much of this practice originates from emulating the look of the better pieces acquired from the gun cabinets of the wealthy manor houses in the first half of the 20th century. Most were maintained in polish from the time they were made.When a piece was found in disrepair and rusty, it was transformed into the new penny to be like the other fine guns. This seems to have continued to this day but in my opinion may be waning a small fraction.
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I think much of this practice originates from emulating the look of the better pieces acquired from the gun cabinets of the wealthy manor houses in the first half of the 20th century. Most were maintained in polish from the time they were made.When a piece was found in disrepair and rusty, it was transformed into the new penny to be like the other fine guns. This seems to have continued to this day but in my opinion may be waning a small fraction.
I agree, the aristocrats who could buy the guns had servants who kept them polished for generations or even centuries I think.
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Interesting obsevation for me as I just recently purchased a Holland 13 ga. double perc. side by side and it too was in the pollished condition and as far as I know it has resided in the USA for some time. Thanks for pointing out that posible european trend. Smylee
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I would say it is not the British Preference, there is good restoration and bad restoration .If a gun is in a very rusty condition where it is often scraped for parts and can be restored but not carried too far then that to me is good.Yes those collections in the top museums look bright and shinny but 99% have not had a hard life with some never been fired and are just the same has new.If you take the private collector you will find that most of his collection still retains the original patina and consist of guns that have shown their age with use
Feltwad
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Feltwad,
Check out Peter Finer's website and the guns he shows. I haven't looked lately, but my recalection is that some appear to have been cleaned to the extent that there isn't even any corrosion or patina in the engraving cuts! The site allows the little zoom window, so little details can be seen. As mentioned before, check out the before and after pictures of the Pierre Monlong pistols from the Royal Armories Collection. These can be found online with a search. With all fairness, perhaps this practice was much more common in the past. Certainly hope so.
Jim
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Today, it seems most builders do not give the brass a high polish. One year at Dixon's, I was at our table early saturday
morning when a felow came up to the table, held his gun out and said, "I spent four hours polishing this thing last night,
I'm going to really knock their socks off". He was going to enter it into the judging, don't know if he won more than a
"parcipitant" (notice the spelling-Pa. Dutch) ribbon...............Don
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Jim I am not disputing what you said about some collections in museums but on the whole it is not a British Preference has I said there is good restoration and bad restoration.I have done restoration for many decades 80% of which would have been scrapped for parts if I can save it for the future then I will but it will not be carried too far, for all restorers there is a golden rule {If in doubt leave it be}..
Feltwad
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The odd thing is though, the guns I referenced are at or near the top of the heap in terms of quality and value. I would expect THESE guns to have "good" restoration practices employed. The Pierre Monglong pistols could arguably be considered the finest examples of English gunmaking.
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I just wanted to add a comment. I have often read that these guns were not used over in europe. I always believed it myself. But I have been doing a lot of reading and the more I read, the more I believe that is not the case necessarily. I just listened to a 12 cd book on queen antoinette. Aparently the king was busy hunting most days from morning to dark. He was obviously running from his obligations, but I think the guns were used, they just had servants cleaning them. I have read references of having the engraving touched up to make it look like new. I know that is only one example, but if you get the jaeger book that Jim chambers was selling a few years back. There was an english translation. There are stories in there of the guys shooting 10,000s plus animals. They seemed to keep very good journals of the hunting. I think the difference is in America a long hunter may have been out hunting for a year or two at a time, but he was in the wilderness the entire time. In europe there were hunting castles. At the end of the day you went home and ate a feast and went to bed in your own bed. The servants took care of the guns.
Just an observation that I have noticed while reading historical books.
Marc
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For what it's worth, I got an American made COS musket signed by Medad Hills from a manor house in England. The Earl of the manor fought in the Rev War and this gun was probably a trophy that was brought home. Seems the heirs were selling the arms collection. When it arrived it was in the "European bright" condition. But, being such a rare gun, I kept it. The brass was polished and the stock was heavily cleaned. Oddly enough, the barrel and lock were left alone. Hopefully it will eventually tone down over time.
Al
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Back in 2010 Mad Monk shared this story:
"When I first started boiling linseed oil with lead I had a number of talks with Kit Ravenshear. He was a regular at Dixon's Gunmasker's Fair. He really took to my boiled oil project.
In regards to the shotgun stocks in England.
Kit spoke to me about the old way things worked in England. A "tinker" would go around to the various estates. He would give each gunstock a fresh coat of boiled oil. This would be the classic deep ruby red and fairly viscous boiled linseed oil. Generally they would put the guy up for a day or two and feed him while he worked on the stocks. Of course he got a small fee also. This would be done over the Winter months when the guns were not in use. This would also give the fresh coats of oil plenty of time to dry. This was a yearly thing so over a period of years the finish would get firly deep on the stocks. A good lead boiled oil finish can pass for a varnish finish when built up in numerous layers like that.
Kit would go off on a rant about how poorly we "colonials" treated guns we used. That to most "colonials the gun was little more than another tool. Not given the level of care that a good gun in England was given.
When you look at old sources they will often call a boiled oil a varnish. There was a period in time where an oil finish simply meant raw linseed oil. As soon as ANYTHING, including dryers, was added to linseed oil it became a varnish."
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I just finished looking at a fowling piece now listed for sale by a UK antique arms dealer. It sold in patina a few months ago at auction for about 600 GBP. It is now listed for 2500 GBP and all the patina is gone as it stands in high polish ready for its new buyer ) :
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What the market wants, eh?....assuming he sells it. Hey, 20,000 Englishmen can't all be wrong.... So whatever the cultural consensus is drives behavior and price.........??
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For a large majority of English Collectors the British Preference is far from the truth yes you will find some dealers and such who resort to this practice of extreme polish but it is just the same in the States .
Feltwad
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Thanks for the great discussion around answering my question. In response to Feltwad...let me just note this observation. What really got my attention on the British sites is frequently seeing pieces cleaned up in the process of posting them. The thing is....nobody on the site even says anything about it at all. If somebody were to do that here or any of the sites in America there would be plenty of comments and opinions.
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All I can say if you want the truth of British Preference you should have posted your thread on the British Muzzle Loading Site
Feltwad
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Saw a nice flint fowler at Widfors (spel?) in Stockholm few years back. Nice & bright. They were a tad embarrassed when I complimented them on the high quality of the reconversion . . .
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Hi Folks,
This thread reminds me a little of those common threads in which the poster asks some technical question about a product like Chambers locks, and eveybody dances around the question with their own ideas until someone finally says, "Why not just call Barbie and find out?" Well we actually have a response (Feltwad) from a collector and restorer in England who likely knows the answer and has given it. He has posted many photos of his guns on this site and do any of you remember seeing a single one that was excessively refinished or cleaned? He also said that excessive cleaning and refinishing may be done in some museums and by some dealers but that is not the norm for British collectors. So the more accurate question perhaps is why are some European museums and antique firearm dealers compelled to excessively refinish and clean firearms?
dave
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Well Dave, when you see examples with your own eyes at an alarming frequency, faith in someone that says otherwise is diminished to some degree. As I've said before, examples I've seen before are not cheap guns, but some of the better to best examples of English gunmaking. Figured work done on these might be performed by those most qualified. Others have sighted specific examples as well. As I said before, maybe this practice is changing to some degree in current times. I will add that I would not agree that the same practice occurrs in this country to the same degree. I firmly believe more sensitivity to this issue exists here. I have the feeling a little national pride is involved in this debate as well.
Jim
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Hi Jim,
I defer to your and others opinions on this because I have not had the pleasure of handling a lot of high-end British and European guns. The ones I've examined were well maintained and conserved. For example, on a silver mounted pistol by Barbar, the chiseled and cast silver mountings were still crisp and the hallmarks clear, although they were lightly polished. Silver is soft and would tend to show effects of vigorous cleaning and polishing. One India pattern musket was polished bright but did not appear to have lost any markings. However, I must admit that all of the dueling pistols that I examined (which were mostly early 19th century guns) had barrels that were rebrowned. I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt and Feltwad is a man on the scene, so to speak. "A little national pride showing"? Yes, absolutely, on both sides of the Atlantic.
dave
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http://www.peterfiner.com/current-stock/item/1208/
http://collections.royalarmouries.org/index.php?a=wordsearch&s=item&key=WYTozOntpOjA7czo3OiJtb25sb25nIjtpOjE7aTowO2k6MjtiOjA7fQ==&pg=1
Here are a couple links to examples. For the royal armories collection link, click on the thumbnails to the right to see the after "restoration" photos.
The long gun at the Peter Finer site has obviously had the barrel re-blued and the lock heavily cleaned at the very least. Use the zoom feature look at the engraving cuts in the lock. No corrosion, patina, crud or nothing in there. Look at the cock carefully and its clear it was once corroded.
Here's my view on this subject. The British have had a tradition of guns being cleaned / refurbished that goes back many centuries. I think remnents of this tendency still exists to some extend. At least such practices are not looked down upon as harshly as they are in this country. In other words, if you scrub the corrosion / patina off a good longrifle you will take a HEAVY hit in the pocket book. At the very least, it's not as big of a deal in Europe and England. I don't think this can be argued with. Also in talking to people who knew Lynton McKenzie well, they have conveyed stories from Lynton where he mentioned how acceptable such practices were, to the extent of even re-cutting engraving. I believe he took part in these practices.
Now, I will say that personally I don't care for this practice, and think there is likely a cost to it, but I will stop short of saying it's wrong. I won't concede that it doesn't happen and at a much higher frequency than here. For good quality guns, there is no doubt more sensitivity to these issues in this country, national pride aside. Just the way I see things.....
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Thanks again for the the great responses and discussion. With all due respect Feltwad....I believe that I asked this question in the right place. I certainly didn't mean to start an international incident....just an honest question. Having said that...it sure would be interesting to see this dicussion take place on a British site. If you want to ask the question...I will certainly read the responses. :D The word "preference" in the title of my post seems to be approprate....and everybody is entitled to their own. I greatly appreciate the knowledge that comes out of the afore mentioned British sites...and have been the beneficiary on more than one occasion. Here are just a couple examples of recent posts that caught my attention and prompted the question to begin with. On the first one notice the patina on the brass furniture that has been wiped out in subsequent photos. If anybody on the site had an opinion that it would be better to leave it alone...they cetainly didn't share it. And...I have seen this repeatedly...and no one even talks about leaving the patina...so I assumed that it was standard practice there to wipe them clean. The second one is just a standard example of the pieces that are regularly posted....and boy does it shine. Again...I have never even seen this issure brought up in any of the posts there....which prompted my initial question.
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/13790/CLARK-flintlock-carbine-information-request
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/13814/E-I-C-Musket
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I have a Brit friend, although he's lived in the US for many years now, but he wholeheartedly agrees that shinny new looking is the best way. And despite my best efforts to 'teach' him the correct way, whenever he gets his hands on a nice old rifle he continues to buff it up like new.
He's into US Civil War guns, and claims that back home (England) you would never want to display a collection of grungy looking weapons.
To each his own; I cringe as the patina goes down the drain, while he smiles with satisfaction.
John
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I think the over cleaning of guns was more prevalent back in the 50's and 60's in this Country. I've seen guns from old collections that never seem to tone down because they've been polished so much. I'm familiar with an older collector who still polishes his collection once a month with pledge. Not my taste.
Frank
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More situational stuff.
When the original finish is removed/modified then information that is important to the BUILDER, but irrelevant to the collector may be lost. So like many things in discussing old firearms there in no one rule the covers every situation.
Rather that wonder why the British like clean guns perhaps we should ask why Americans want them dirty.
Who invented this fad?
Thats what it is after all.
What was the rifle supposed to look like when in use. A grungy hulk or a well cared for firearm?
We all know the answer. But someplace back down the road, probably in the 1930s or 40s if not later, someone started the "don't touch the patina" fad and now we are largely stuck with it.
Dan
P.S. Pledge? ???
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Hi,
Dan, you raise a good point. Why do we value the old patina? If a gun is cleaned, polished, and restored without losing important marks and details, why do we prefer the "right out of the attic" look? Corrosion and dirt can obscure important metal marks. Perhaps a gun handed down over time in a cleaned, polished, and care-for state might stand a better chance of a happy fate than one allowed to become a relic, buried in the attic, and eventually lost. Are we overly sensitive to the concern that important historical information will be lost or is it that we agree that competent cleaning and polishing can be done but the risk that a hack does it is too great and we simply prefer to discourage the practice altogether?
dave
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I think the dingy dirty "fad" grew into a standard with many after witnessesing the destruction of important pieces at the hands of hackers. Today, just by cleaning it up a bit you lose half of the potential buyers and those who remain will only consider a percentage of what they would have shelled out for a grimy, rusty mess.
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Has I have said there is good restoration and bad restoration most of my restorations are to save antique guns from ending up been scraped for parts they are part of our gun heritage and should be preserved.I have enclosed images of a typical restoration if this is what is called British Preference ,I prefere to call it saving it for the future
Feltwad
Before
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj152%2FRamrod_2006%2FP1010007-16.jpg&hash=5ec42c768fd63a5511dde4690032d9a3844a255e)
After
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj152%2FRamrod_2006%2FP1010004-25.jpg&hash=5a9d3fb0255eaba353674e5b1bfc3799090631e1)
Before
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj152%2FRamrod_2006%2FP1010004-24.jpg&hash=035103345cd61ea58c58347ae5617f736963779f)
After
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj152%2FRamrod_2006%2FP1010002-29.jpg&hash=ef4b925b2004297ee53679212b070630ae606943)
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I thought there would have been a comment to the images I posted . But too myself and most collectors this is what on this side of the pond we associate has British Preference, not those buffed to a mirror finish
Feltwad
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Hi Feltwad,
Thanks for the photos. I believe you posted them before or ones very similar, to which I referred in my first post in this thread.
dave
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If a weapon has a long history of having been polished bright, maintaining that polish may be an easy choice to make. Original maintenance practices carried through to early collectors looking to improve right on into a trend.
Consider U.S. martial pistols and rifles that had an original polish finish that have been kept that way, again early collectors looking to improve/restore. Patina lost is patina lost, pretty difficult to replace regardless of view point.
I have no difficulty with the concept of European collectors having gained a preference for patina, maybe there is just a lot of water under the bridge (a lot of existing polished arms) .....and as always there are exceptions. tim
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If a weapon has a long history of having been polished bright, maintaining that polish may be an easy choice to make. Original maintenance practices carried through to early collectors looking to improve right on into a trend.
Consider U.S. martial pistols and rifles that had an original polish finish that have been kept that way, again early collectors looking to improve/restore. Patina lost is patina lost, pretty difficult to replace regardless of view point.
I have no difficulty with the concept of European collectors having gained a preference for patina, maybe there is just a lot of water under the bridge (a lot of existing polished arms) .....and as always there are exceptions. tim
But patina is really not important in the study or appreciation of the firearm. In fact it can be a detriment.
But having idiots clean guns is worse.
There is no easy answer to this.
Its a case by case thing I suppose as it always seems to be.
Dan