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General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: gibster on April 08, 2012, 06:16:53 AM

Title: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: gibster on April 08, 2012, 06:16:53 AM
Thought some of you might be interested in seeing this.  Will be interested in seeing what the final hammer price will be.  Here is the link:
http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=107047

You may have to cut and paste in your browser to view.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: The other DWS on April 08, 2012, 03:59:50 PM
Wow! What is about the most extensive auction description I have seen.

Is the data still considered accurate by contemporary authorities?

Has anyne ever determined the "why" of making a brass barreled "rifle"?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Tony Clark on April 08, 2012, 04:20:13 PM
It's always interesting to see what these "landmark" collector pieces will sell for at the rare times they are being traded hands. I'm really curious as to if this piece will reach the estimates Cowan's has set. This is one of the most important early American firearms that exists in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 08, 2012, 04:24:16 PM
Speculations about its origin aside, I wonder why the BBR auction description did not mention the pre-1771 date scratched on the so-called "Musician Rifle?"  1756 / NJ (the "NJ" is below the date but it is not showing up in this particular photo)

(https://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/moldyoak/Fessler2.jpg)
https://s573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/moldyoak/

Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Tony Clark on April 08, 2012, 04:46:20 PM
Speculations about its origin aside, I wonder why the BBR auction description did not mention the pre-1771 date scratched on the so-called "Musician Rifle?"  1756 / NJ (the "NJ" is below the date but it is not showing up in this particular photo)

(http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/moldyoak/Fessler2.jpg)


Eric, Cowans's didn't mention the " Musician rifle" most likely because they are not in the business of educating people on the intricate specifics of early American firearms, they are just attempting to sell a given piece and provide as much information as they can gather. Which you know as well as I do the information they provide may not be accurate or definitive regarding anything.
But personally I would love to hear your opinions on the origin of this piece if you have one. Happy Easter : )
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: James Rogers on April 08, 2012, 04:54:03 PM
Speculations about its origin aside, I wonder why the BBR auction description did not mention the pre-1771 date scratched on the so-called "Musician Rifle?"  1756 / NJ (the "NJ" is below the date but it is not showing up in this particular photo)

(https://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/moldyoak/Fessler2.jpg)


Eric, Cowans's didn't mention the " Musician rifle" most likely because they are not in the business of educating people on the intricate specifics of early American firearms, they are just attempting to sell a given piece and provide as much information as they can gather. Which you know as well as I do the information they provide may not be accurate or definitive regarding anything.
But personally I would love to hear your opinions on the origin of this piece if you have one. Happy Easter : )

Do you think someone at Cowan's wrote or compiled that detailed information??
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Shreckmeister on April 08, 2012, 05:09:14 PM
My thought would be that provenance of this rifle has been passed from owner to owner and that Wallace Gusler supplied the information to Cowan's, but I could be wrong.  I don't see an auction house doing that deep of research and certainly if I owned a piece of history, I would maintain it's provenance.  If you read the entire auction description which is an essay on longrifle collecting in itself, at the
end it states the rifle comes with a personally signed Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle signed by Kindig stating "Lot comes with a copy of "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age by Joe Kindig. The book is inscribed To Wallace Gusler, who I believe knows more about early Virginia rifles and their makers than anyone else in the world. Joe Kindig"



Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 08, 2012, 05:10:19 PM
What I'm indicating in my previous vague comment:  I simply wonder why the individual or individuals who provided the majority of information for the auction text did not mention the 1756 date upon the Musician Rifle?  One scratched date is as good as another scratched date.  Perhaps it was simply overlooked.  On the other hand, calling something the "earliest" in any categorical sense does have a very nice ring to it.

The Musician Rifle has been in the same family for quite some time, as I understand it.  Very near to one of the PA Moravian enclaves.  There is no reason - that I can currently determine - for someone to have scratched 1756 NJ on the box, other than that very likely the owner was involved in the blockhouse construction and stationing of men in upper Jersey ca. 1755-1777.  There was intense activity there and across the river into Northampton County.  Presently, I would tend to take the date at face value.  There certainly is nothing about the rifle which precludes it from being this early.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: tallbear on April 08, 2012, 05:14:56 PM
After reading the description my gut feeling is that it was written by the rifles' current owner not the auction house  ;) ;)

Mitch
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Fullstock longrifle on April 08, 2012, 05:18:18 PM
My thought would be that provenance of this rifle has been passed from owner to owner and that Wallace Gusler supplied the information to Cowan's, but I could be wrong.  I don't see an auction house doing that deep of research and certainly if I owned a piece of history, I would maintain it's provenance.  If you read the entire auction description which is an essay on longrifle collecting in itself, at the
end it states the rifle comes with a personally signed Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle signed by Kindig stating "Lot comes with a copy of "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age by Joe Kindig. The book is inscribed To Wallace Gusler, who I believe knows more about early Virginia rifles and their makers than anyone else in the world. Joe Kindig"






I would bet the farm that Wallace wrote the description.

Frank
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 08, 2012, 05:33:42 PM
I just want to take a moment to interject that I hope this doesn't turn into a 'free for all Wallace bash.'  I too assume he supplied most of the information for the description if he didn't draft it himself.  Hence, my wondering aloud why the Musician Rifle date was not noted.  The lock on that rifle is signed, *probably* a german lockmaker but possibly some more information has been found in regard to the name which invalidates the 1756 date.  Just wondering aloud.  Perchance Gary may join in at some point?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: tallbear on April 08, 2012, 05:49:10 PM

My post was in no way meant to "bash Wallace".I have studied with him,greatly respect him  and have spent some time disscusing this rifle and just meant that the discription on the auction site is pretty close to how Wallace would decribe the rifle.

That being said your question is a valid one that I too would learn much from such a disscusion.

Mitch
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: jdm on April 08, 2012, 05:59:07 PM
The firearms expert Cowans has is not a Kentucky rifle guy. I believe someone else wrote it.  JIM
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 08, 2012, 05:59:59 PM
Oh, I don't think anyone is bashing him.  However, he definitely does put forth some extremely thought-provoking and controversial ideas, and I know that in the past, when he used to post here at times as well as when certain of his attributions were being discussed, things occasionally became somewhat heated.  I'm positive that every single person here respects him immensely.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: tallbear on April 08, 2012, 06:15:56 PM
I suspect one possibility is the omission of the Musician rifle in the description is meant to maximize the hammer price of the Brass Barrel Rifle which after all is the purpose of the auction.Auction descriptions always put the item most favorable light.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Laird on April 08, 2012, 08:35:45 PM
I just hope that whoever the new owner will be, they'll be as forthcoming and willing to share as Wallace Gusler has been. I know that any show that I have attended where he was an exhibitor, he had this rifle and others that he was willing to let a student handle, examine in detail, and discuss. While he has some controversial thoughts at times, controversy in the quest for knowledge is not a bad thing - it keeps us searching, researching and questioning what we "know".
Eric
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: spgordon on April 08, 2012, 10:25:11 PM
Sam Dyke's The Pennsylvania Rifle (1974) pictures a rifle by "J. Dubbs" that is "dated 1761 on the thumb-piece" (p. 12). This looks to be the same rifle as Shumway's #59 in RCA (see earlier thread: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20587.0). But Shumway doesn't mention the 1761 date, nor do his pictures show it (from what I can tell).

What is the current thinking about this rifle?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 09, 2012, 12:53:27 AM
Oh $#@*.  I'm not very adept at the photo linking process here.  It would appear that when I posted that one specific photo, the link takes you to a public album with a pile of photos which was supposed to be private.  They weren't supposed to be made public but I guess the damage is done now since it appears they've been viewed quite a bit.  Oh well.  Someone sure is going to get really *#)*^~ off at me.  Sorry!   :-X
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 09, 2012, 01:12:52 AM
Hey Professor (just don't call me Gilligan) - the general consensus is that the date on that is a fake, in fact the whole thumb piece may have been added.  It was unfortunately VERY popular ca. 1920s - 1960s to add thumbpieces with fake dates and/or initials to these relics.  I've remember working on one that had a thumbpiece made from a late 19th century silver coin - could still see remnants of the date on the underside, despite the fact that the "thumbpiece" was engraved with some ridiculous 1720s date.   
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: tallbear on April 09, 2012, 01:29:48 AM
Eric
I hope you don't get in too much trouble.It was the best Easter present i've gotten in a long time.

All the best!!!
Mitch
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: spgordon on April 09, 2012, 01:50:57 AM
Thanks (and no need for the Professor!). When you come late (as I am) to these things, you feel all the time that there's a consensus about particular objects or topics that has been built up over years of conversations but that doesn't appear anywhere in print--and that what is in print are ideas that are a generation old and largely discarded...
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 09, 2012, 02:52:02 AM
Very accurate assessment!  At the same time, however, it's good to try to maintain an open mind because some of the "old wisdom" does occasionally circle back and bite you once dismissed.  Some of those old collectors did indeed know what they were looking at and were quite involved in research but it was simply more difficult pre-internet so there seems to have been more speculation involved; speculation never goes out of fashion, though!
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Tom Currie on April 09, 2012, 03:42:03 AM
EK, We won't tell anyone
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: flintriflesmith on April 09, 2012, 05:24:34 AM
The date engraved deeply on the inside of the patch box lid of the BBR is very different in character from an obviously secondary scratched on date on the exterior of the "Musician Rifle." 
Scratched dates may represent the date of manufactor of an object (rifle, powderhorn, or whatever) but in many cases they have proven to be later additions.
That statement in no way lessons the importance of the "Musician Rifle" but I believe current scholarship would date it a bit later than 1756.
Gary
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 09, 2012, 05:44:17 AM
"That statement in no way lessons the importance of the "Musician Rifle" but I believe current scholarship would date it a bit later than 1756."

Care to elaborate? 
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 09, 2012, 05:26:47 PM
Gary I should elaborate on that request to elaborate:  what I am indicating is, has the name on the lock been *positively* identified as an individual that would absolutely preclude the 1756 date, or is the opinion that the piece is later than 1750s manufacture due to something else i.e. a particular stylistic trait or ???

Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: mkeen on April 09, 2012, 08:04:08 PM

Has anyone ever determined the "why" of making a brass barreled "rifle"?

A good question. Does anyone have an answer?

Martin
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Dennis Glazener on April 09, 2012, 09:44:36 PM
Quote
A good question. Does anyone have an answer?

Martin
I have no clue, but surely folks back then were much like folks today. Why do folks today use brass lock plates versus steel, ash/hackberry( ;D) versus maple/walnut/cherry. Because they have it or want to see how it looks or how others view it.

Another thought was the common use of brass/bronze for cannon during that period, guess a few just had to try them on a sporting rifle.
Dennis
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Ben I. Voss on April 09, 2012, 09:56:24 PM
From what I read somewhere in period writing, it was thought that brass was more homogenous or cleaner, and a better barrel could be made of it than the somewhat crude iron of the day. FWIW    Ben

                                               
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: The other DWS on April 10, 2012, 12:25:55 AM
brass/ and brass bronze alloys could be cast and had been for centuries with a well developed knowledge base in the cannon and bell founding business.  At relatively lower pressure BP loads it was perhaps considered "safer" that a welded up iron barrel with its built-in potential flaws.  One sees brass barreled pistols and blunderbusses with some frequency, especially in marine-origin contexts.  I'd sort of expect to see more brass barreled waterfowling pieces

I would think that brass barrels might be more common, though of course brass was relatively easy to recycle; and when Iron barrel technology advanced, particularly with rifled barrels perhaps they gt melted down.

How many more brass barreled long guns are known?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: flintriflesmith on April 10, 2012, 01:23:53 AM
...How many more brass barreled long guns are known?

If memory serves, DeWitt Bailey's book on rifles mentions at least one brass barreled rifle in the hands of an Indian. I believe there is also an order from Sir William Johnson, of Indian trader and statesman fame, for a brass barrel rifle to be made in PA.

Core casting a rifle barrel would be extremely challenging for a "gunsmith" I sand core, even one formed around a steel inner core, would be very difficult to keep centered in the mold. Canon were also core cast and it was done by pouring them standing on end with the base of the core suspended by an iron device shaped like a kid's Jackrock.

Wallace and I have talked about the technology a lot and come to the conclusion that the expertise of a full blown foundry might have been involved.

Gary
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: jdm on April 10, 2012, 02:21:28 AM
Back in the early 90's I  saw two at the Princeton Illinois show. Vince Nolt owned one at that time. It is pictured in Henry Kaufman's book . Can't recall what page. Vince was telling me how rare they were. When I mentioned they were getting more common all the time as there was another one at the show. That stopped  the conversation as he raced off to look.  With those two plus this one that makes three I know of  JIM
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Fullstock longrifle on April 10, 2012, 02:52:28 AM
Other than Wallace's rifle, I've only seen two others, both from the 1830/40 period.

Frank
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: lexington1 on April 10, 2012, 02:54:34 AM
English brass barreled pistols and blunderbuss barrels weren't really uncommon. Maybe this is an English barrel? I know that the barrel was lengthend when it was restored. Was the original section rifled? I don't recall ever seeing a rifled brass barrel, although that doesn't mean anything   ;)
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 10, 2012, 02:58:01 AM
David Deshler's (alleged) rifle, possibly made by Peter Neihart (my current thinking) is also a brass barrel, albeit much more heavily damaged.  It is *at least* of the same period and considerably bigger.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: smshea on April 10, 2012, 02:58:43 AM
There was a long gun(perhaps not a rifle) with a brass barrel floating around at the Last KRA show in Carlisle before it went west. I don't remember much about it but I'm sure it was not as early as what is being discussed here. Whoever was showing it to me did not own it as I recall.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 10, 2012, 03:10:43 AM
Gary would really appreciate an elaboration of your thoughts!
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: JV Puleo on April 10, 2012, 06:13:51 AM
If the barrel was shortened and the fore stock missing, how does anyone even know how long the original barrel was?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 10, 2012, 06:19:35 AM
Which gun?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Curt J on April 10, 2012, 07:04:59 AM
Take a real good look at the Old Barn Auction catalog for the auction coming up on April 20 & 21.  There is a brass barreled rifle on the auction, although a much later one.  It is item #424, and is a percussion fullstock with 25 silver inlays and the name "PATTERSON" on the barrel.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: JV Puleo on April 10, 2012, 11:49:15 PM
RE my question above... The rifle described in the long auction catalog entry... where Mr. Kindig was unconcerned that the color of the brass match as he was not going to pretend the barrel had not been stretched... actually a point of view that I applaud but it would seem to me that doing nothing may well have been even better.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 11, 2012, 12:23:33 AM
I'm not sure if the barrel has been 'stretched' or if a big chunk had blown out of it and it was replaced.  Gary could probably tell us the answer to that one if he ever comes back and answers my question (  8) 8) now now I'm saying that with a smile).  If it was actually stretched, it's certainly possible to use extant points of reference such as underlugs, forestock length etc. to reach a [usually] close approximation of how long it may originally have been.  I'm sure regardless of Kindig's comments, Wallace probably put a lot of thought into it. 
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 11, 2012, 01:32:10 AM
I've poured small pistol barrels in petrobond.  I made a wood pattern w/ protruding pins on either end of the pattern.  After removing the pattern I used a core consisting of an iron rod coated with clay which had been baked and was also heated pretty hot prior to being put in the mold.  They came out pretty well although I never used one simply for liability reasons.  But it was pretty easily done in my charcoal forge with a moderate size crucible.

I would think a brass rifle length barrel would definitely be a full-time foundry project.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: rich pierce on April 11, 2012, 01:53:34 AM
I think the sampling we have is so small, provenance is so scarce, and early gunsmiths in the colonies probably varied so much in their backgrounds and styles that it is hazardous to rank the "early-ness" of any stack of early rifles.  An "early" rifle that is out of the ordinary is more likely to be considered "quite early", when it might just have been a later oddity that nobody used as a template for subsequent builds.

Most of us who are particularly crazy for early pieces have our tentative dates for each of the "early ones".  For me the Musician's rifle's provenance wins me over to the scratched date, though the 2 piece hinged box kind of makes me a little queasy about that.  There are some early rifles tentatively dated to the 1760's that I don't "get" because they look like evolved longrifles, not "roots" guns.

The BBR looks like an anomaly but the cheekpiece design is similar to that of Tom Curran's bench copy of an unidentified plain rifle tentatively dating to the Revolutionary War period.  That suggests the BBR was not an evolutionary dead end, or that it had some cousins or nieces or something.  I find it easier to study and think about if I forget it has a brass barrel.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 11, 2012, 02:54:59 AM
Just as a side note with all the discussion of the BBR, let's not forget that it has a sister made by the same guy that George stuck in at the end of RCA Vol. II.  Everyone always overlooks that one.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: rich pierce on April 11, 2012, 03:35:16 AM
Thanks for the reminder about that one.  :)
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: flintriflesmith on April 11, 2012, 04:42:35 AM
I'm not sure if the barrel has been 'stretched' or if a big chunk had blown out of it and it was replaced.  Gary could probably tell us the answer to that one if he ever comes back and answers my question (  8) 8) now now I'm saying that with a smile).  ...
Eric,
Sorry. I've been way to busy recently to keep up with this thread.

The barrel wasn't stretched in the conventional sense of adding length at one end or the other of a cut off barrel. The barrel had been bored out smooth and was so thin that it actually broke at the point where the front sling swivel was dovetailed into the bottom of the barrel. That could have been a relatively easy repair but someone (prior to it showing up in Florida) had attempted to repair it by brazing. They apparently got the edges of the break way too hot and ended up leaving a massively damaged section, with chunks missing, near the smallest point in the tapered and flared barrel. The only solution to save the appearance and length was to replace a section of barrel. How much was missing was based, as you said, on the even spacing of the underlugs --- probably accurate to within a quarter inch or less.

Wallace is on a road trip but he told me today that he will respond to some of the questions on this thread in person when he gets home. Meanwhile look at his old (2003 -2005) Muzzle Blast articles on this and the "muscian's rifle."
Gary
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 11, 2012, 04:59:07 PM
Thanks for that Gary! 
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: mkeen on April 11, 2012, 04:59:49 PM
On early brass barreled rifles. The 1751 inventory of Martin Mylin Jr. listed a Prass Riffel valued at £6.0.0. He also had some casting mowles valued at £0.8.0. As a price comparison the 1766 inventory of Philip LeFevre lists 7 new rifles valued at £2.12.6 apiece. Philip lived a little less than two miles from Martin Mylin's home.

Martin
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Dphariss on April 13, 2012, 06:49:00 AM
On early brass barreled rifles. The 1751 inventory of Martin Mylin Jr. listed a Prass Riffel valued at £6.0.0. He also had some casting mowles valued at £0.8.0. As a price comparison the 1766 inventory of Philip LeFevre lists 7 new rifles valued at £2.12.6 apiece. Philip lived a little less than two miles from Martin Mylin's home.

Martin

But were all the values in the same currency?
There were Colonial Pounds and British pounds and figuring what was what can be difficult, I have read.

Dan
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: mkeen on April 13, 2012, 07:26:19 PM

But were all the values in the same currency?
There were Colonial Pounds and British pounds and figuring what was what can be difficult, I have read.

Dan
[/quote]

Dan

A good question. Yes those values would be in the same currency, both are in the Pennsylvania currency. The value in British pounds would be different, as would the value in another colony, say Virginia or New York. It is possible to convert between the various locations. There are published tables on the values of the various currencies during the colonial period.

Martin
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: wallace gusler on April 14, 2012, 03:56:21 AM
Brass Barrel Rifle Gun at Cowan’s Auction, May 2, 2012
By Wallace Gusler
In response to the questions and commentary recently posted here:
I wrote the Cowan’s entry and did the research, etc. It is a shortened version of sections in my book (still not published.) I also added the provenance and the letters from Joe Kindig, Jr., regarding the repair and conservation work I did at the Colonial Williamsburg gun shop in 1969. It is important to document this account, which would otherwise be lost at my passing.

Regarding the Musician’s Rifle: I first started studying it in 1981. Its box is pictured in my Muzzle Blast article (March 2005, pages 55-56) on the Bathabara Rifle (Shumway #42). The scratched-on inscription “1756 NJ” is visible on p. 55. The date was done, I believe, by a later owner of the rifle and the “NJ” notation is probably the initials of the scribe or of an ancestor. Often families back date objects as a result of oral tradition. This movement was very popular in the 1876 celebration of the centennial of the founding of the United States. One Virginia rifle received an inscription on the barrel stating King’s Mountain battle service by the rifle and an ancestor. This was cut over the Virginia maker’s name. [The maker was one year old when the battle of King’s Mountain was fought.]
I believe the date of production is later than 1756 because the wrist carving in front of the cheek piece on the Musician’s Rifle was executed by John Valentine Beck during his time in Christian Springs, 1761-1764. I published a comparison of this carving in an article in Muzzle Blast in connection with the Bathabara rifle attribution (#42.)  The Bathabara Rifle was made in North Carolina; I will publish another article with important evidence uncovered since the last series.
 
I have never handled the Deshler rifle (published by Erich Kettenburg), but do not trust its brass barrel as American. The rifle may be completely European, except for the extensive repairs and additions.

There is strong evidence that the brass barrel of the “Brass Barrel Rifle,” which I attribute the rifle to Hans Jacob Honaker, is American and was made in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia.  It is in the American long rifle style in regard to its dimensions.  The extensive porosity and repairs of the brass in the last 12” to 15” at the muzzle end point to American workmanship. The placement of its hindsight (10” from the breech) fits into the evolution of the American longrifle. [The Brass Barrel Rifle is dated 1771; 1760s examples are 5” to 7” from the breech.] Additionally, the placement of the rear barrel loop ahead of the ramrod entry step coincides with other early Shenandoah Valley longrifles. The later rifle (circa 1775) from the Honaker shop (shown in back of Shumway, vol. II, and in a Muzzle Blast article I wrote) originally had the long rear pin placement just ahead of the step down to the fore end at the tail piece. When I published this rifle in Muzzle Blast I was not aware of the barrel loop change from pins to draw loops. In recent times I had an opportunity to study the rifle for a couple of hours and noticed this change. It was changed (probably in the 18th century) to the current draw loops that are placed in the more usual positions. The hook breech was probably added at the time of the loop change.
 
To my knowledge the Brass Barrel Rifle patch box and the side opening detached example Eric Kettenburg owns are the earliest hinged boxes with a date put on by the maker. This is what the article in Cowan’s catalog is about. Additionally, the Brass Barrel Rifle’s box is the most primitive of those known, it never having a kick-open spring. There are other examples of brass patch boxes that I believe are earlier, based on circumstantial evidence connected with them. These are: the Musician’s Rifle box dates to the 1761-64 period and the early George Schroyer with the two-piece box (Shumway, vol. II, #92) [I donated a large portion of the value of this rifle to the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation] dates to the 1761-65 period when Schroyer was working in Reading. The Bathabara Rifle is also about this same date. The Brass Barrel Rifle box may represent the style of the 1750s, or it may be an isolated example of one man’s way to handle the hinged box production. At this time there is ample evidence that the hinged metal box was spreading through the back country and frontier at a faster rate than would have been possible by apprenticeship trees. Experimentation was happening over wide geographic regions; the longrifle did not develop in one place and then methodically spread to other areas as has been the theory.
W.B.G.


Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 14, 2012, 05:03:38 PM
Wallace thank you for taking the time to join in!

Have you ever considered putting your continually-forthcoming book online?  It's a LOT faster, easier, cheaper and if you want to make money on it (obviously, a researcher would like to paid for all the dedicated work!) it can very simply be set up as a subscription or pay site.  It will reach a wider audience, will last indefinitely and will allow the author to tend it constantly, something you definitely can not do with print.  Well I had to say to say it because we're all waiting for whatever it is you're going to publish!

Obviously this itself could go on indefinitely so I will try to be concise.

If I may be blunt, the notion of someone randomly picking a date of 1756 to scratch on a rifle in the 19th century is just plain weird.  Of course it's a possibility, but I have to be blunt and express the opinion that there is really does not seem to be any evidence either way whether it was scratched on in 1756 or 1956.  To fit your proposed timeline, it is more fitting for you to declare it a later addition.

You are also making declarative statements that RCA42 "was made," not "might have been made" by Beck, and that the musician rifle was likewise, based upon one small area of wrist carving, there otherwise being no apparent similarities between the two rifles.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to do so in such declarative fashion, I have to assume you have a signed JV Beck rifle.  However, to do so also completely ignores the Allentown buttstock Ernie Laudenslager sold in Carlisle in 2002 or 2003 (where I photographed it) which for all intents and purposes must have been made by the same maker as RCA42 - I should say, the same guy, or his twin.  Ernie also claimed he had a barrel and some other pieces too, although I never saw them, so possibly it has been put back together and restored by this point in time.  If you make some inquiries I'm sure you could find the current owner and get some better photos.  I do not know who currently owns it.  I'm certainly not averse to the notion that Beck may have been a hugely important figure in the storyline of the 1760s and somewhat of a bridge between PA and NC, however I feel that you are attempting to force the straightjacket of a linear progression upon these pieces, and to do so necessarily then brushes aside these "outside quirks" i.e Leyendecher's box, the Allentown buttstock etc. that do not seem to fit the timeline.

In regard to David Deshler's alleged rifle (I have not yet been able to completely verify that declared ownership), I would hesitate to myself make an absolutely declarative statement of it's American manufacture, but all indications point thus.  The stock is American black cherry; the buttplate is thin, hammered brass sheet and quite crude; the triggerguard is a identifiable type which is found on a number of other early PA pieces, filing/shaping variations aside, and despite the interesting cheek carving, the tang carving at the least is certainly near-identical to a number of solidly identifiable pieces of American manufacture.  And of course, the brass box, which is obviously first work.  In regard to the discussion of brass barrel manufacture, I can not say one way or the other whether it is an American or European barrel and what is left of the original barrel may not be enough to make a determination.  If we are to use crude manufacture as a guide, then it certainly may fit the American slot as it is cruder than any European barrel I have yet seen; furthermore, I do not personally see any reason one could cast the BBR barrel here but not the barrel upon the Deshler rifle; given the massive proportions of the Deshler breech, I suspect it originally was of a shorter length and so likely easier to cast than the BBR barrel.  It is quite unfortunate that the entire rifle has been thoroughly molested.

Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Stan on April 16, 2012, 10:58:16 PM
If my memory is correct & I believe it is, I remember Walles giving a disortation about the Musicians rifle at the KRA a number of years ago in which he stated the rifle was made by Andreas Albrecht in the 1750s at Bethlehem & also had found the locksmith as an immigrant in the mid 1750s.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: flintriflesmith on April 17, 2012, 12:44:42 AM
... In regard to David Deshler's alleged rifle (I have not yet been able to completely verify that declared ownership), I would hesitate to myself make an absolutely declarative statement of it's American manufacture, but all indications point thus.  The stock is American black cherry;

Eric,
Can you elaborate on the wood identification process used to make that determination?
Gary
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: rich pierce on April 17, 2012, 12:57:56 AM
I have never handled the Deshler rifle (published by Erich Kettenburg), but do not trust its brass barrel as American. The rifle may be completely European, except for the extensive repairs and additions.

For that hypothesis to be supportable, I guess we'd have to assume that the side-opening patchbox is a later addition to the Deschler smooth rifle?  The buttplate gives no signs of having been slotted for a sliding wooden patchbox but this smooth rifle could originally have had no patchbox, I suppose.  I am pretty sure nobody wants to propose the side-opening patchbox, which seems to have sprung to life in eastern Pennsylvania, has European roots.

Similarly, it seems unlikely that American black cherry was a common stock wood for European gunmakers as it was somewhat restricted in use even here.  

Regarding other aspects of the Deschler rifle that may be European, it seems that many/most? rifles or smooth rifles of that era had barrels and locks of European origin, so that would not make the Deschler rifle any more European in origin than a Christians Spring rifle by Albrecht, I suppose.  It may also be less than usual to see European hardware so plain as is on the Deschler rifle.

Finally, EK's research has identified a clearly American rifle carved by the same hand from the same geographical region.  All in all, this is pretty convincing to me that the Deschler rifle was stocked in eastern Pennsylvania.  We cannot know what was and was not first work but there is not compelling evidence that the patchbox is secondary, unless we also want to propose a buttplate replacement, at which point we are building a complex story.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 17, 2012, 03:06:45 AM
(1)  About J. Heinrich Fessler:  over in the languishing other thread, I noted that Dave uncovered a German document noting a man of this name as a gunmsith in Baden in 1712.  Certainly early, however if he was a young man at the time he may have had a long career into the 1740s-1750s anyway.  A Heinrich Fessler arrived in Philadelphia in 1733 with his wife and daughter but thus far I have not really put a lot of work into trying to track him any further.  I *think* iirc he was in his early/mid 50s at that time.  Also a Johan Heinrich Fessler arrived in 1766, again I don;t know anything else about him.  There were Fesslers that arrived in the 1750s but no Heinrichs of whom I'm aware.

Hey, we're a bunch of smart people here!  Somebody go and find Master Heinnerich!

(2)  Gary I unceremoniously dug a chunk out of the lock mortise and sent it to USFS just so I could say that I did.  I also dealt with a local guy here who works for Penn State.  Before I am crucified for doing this, let me explain that the mortise was already buggered by a restorer when a replacement lock was fitted.  While they ideally wanted a bigger piece, it was opined that the wood was consistent with north american black cherry, which it certainly looks like anyway.

(3)  The Deshler box is original, or at least it looks original, including the weird mortise and holes.  The only replacement thing in there is the kick spring.  All else is very, very old.  If we are going to question it's originality because it may not be convenient for it to be original, then I suppose were could just as easily question the originality of RCA42, which is equally weird, or even (in honor of this thread) the BBR with the box appearing to chop into an otherwise nicely carved flower.  I tend to go along with Rich's logic here:  it's one thing to question something that blatantly looks out of place and/or later work and/or too new.  On the other hand, if something looks right and we have to create lengthy, elaborate scenarios to explain something or otherwise kill it off, it seems to be to be akin to a scientist approaching a study with a DESIRED outcome in mind.

(4)  If I can be blunt, the Deshler piece is owned by a bunch of squabbling idiots.  I offered to do a better restoration (and it wouldn't take much to do a better restoration, despite my not wishing to speak ill of really nice guys who are now deceased...) FOR FREE, including the making of a new lock and new replacement barrel segment.  I suspect it is going to be auctioned as is.

(5)  Finally just as a side note, am I the only one who finds the barrel marking on the underside suspiciously similar to the Neihart snowman?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: debnal on April 19, 2012, 10:51:01 PM
Since Eric brought it up, can anyone expound on the fact that the patchox does in fact interupt some flower petal carving?
Al
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Fullstock longrifle on April 20, 2012, 01:24:18 AM
I never really noticed that before Al, but I just looked it up in Shumways book and part of the carving is cut off by the patchbox, interesting.

FK
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: heinz on April 20, 2012, 02:31:19 AM
If you look closely you will see there is a raised molding around the matchbox  The molding also cuts off the flower.  So, even if the molding was originally for an original wooden patch box lid, the original wooden lid also cut off the flower. It would be highly unlikely that the raised molding around the box was a later addition.  And if the metal patch box is not original what does that do to the 1771 date? 
I believe Wallace Gussler has the best interpretation.  And it is a truly awesome rifle with some interesting rather free form carving.  Not unreasonable to associate it with someone who apprenticed as a cabinet maker.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: flintriflesmith on April 20, 2012, 03:22:59 AM
If you look at the carving behind the cheek and down in the corner by the toe you will see that these details are not being used as the petals of a flower. The lens (football) shaped details are used as leaves or leaf like features, singly or in groups of three. Same use in the tang carving.

Heinz is right on in pointing out that the box has a raised molding carved around it. This blends nicely with the molding across the stock at the butt piece. Also there is no evidence of a cut in the butt piece for a wood box so I don't know how that even came up for discussion.

Gary
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 20, 2012, 03:37:26 AM
I guess it came up in an off-hand manner; similarly, I would say, to the same type of off-hand manner details upon other pieces can be arbitrarily called into question simply due to inconvenience.

I guess for the box to be unoriginal, the buttplate must necessarily have been replaced in entirety.  Surely that's not a stretch?  ::)
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Tom Currie on April 20, 2012, 04:52:00 AM
I don't have the expertise to comment on most of this thread but I'll jump in on the snowman. It's not often when a detail that we know as unique to a secific maker, shows up on a earlier piece and provides us insight into what the maker might have done earlier in his career prior to the onset of what we know as schools today. I know EK refrains from attribution, however there are certainly other attributions out there on rifles we all love that are based on less convincing evidence and  speculation than the Desschler rifle. 

I for one would have liked to have been there when that barrel was flipped over.   
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: rich pierce on April 20, 2012, 06:44:59 AM
I agree the snowman is an amazing finding on such a piece.  It would be an unlikely coincidence for it to appear regularly on the work of one specific maker and not others from the same era and then by chance on the barrel of a earlier gun by another, unrelated hand.  Surely many who uncovered such evidence would be inclined to make a strong attribution.  There is  a thrill to discovery and detective work.  In the lab, when one of my proteges observes something previously unseen and unknown, I often wish I'd done the experiment myself, to be the first to see.  But I am thrilled nonetheless.  A raw student with fresh eyes may find something a seasoned researcher might never discover- and everybody questions the findings of a master as much as they would a raw student.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on April 20, 2012, 01:33:01 PM
You can view the little snowman two different ways; one would be to essentially "back date" Neihart's carved snowmen on his post-Rev War work and view it as the same thing, OR one could view it as a symbol which had some type of meaning now lost - perhaps religious or otherwise - and that Neihart's later carved symbols were derivative.  Obviously, lacking more information or evidence, we have no idea.  It is *remarkably* similar to the 'Neihart snowman,' down to the triangular markings perpendicular to the circles, however there is a difference in that the circles stamped into the barrel overlap.

As an interesting side note, I remember a number of years ago, when my kids were little, we used to take them down to Knoebels (amusement park) in Elysburg.  Somewhere along the way, on the back roads down south of Bloomsburg, there was an area wherein there were a number of old brick houses - probably very late 18th century or early 19th century - and up in the gable ends of a bunch of these houses was a weird little symbol worked into the bricks that also looked like Neihart's circles in the form of the number "8."  The entire area also was home to a strong religious presence as witnessed by a bunch of Jesus Saves type signs posted along the road.  I used to wonder, when we went through there, if there was any kind of similar significance in those symbols....

I wonder if there is a simple way to estimate the amount of raw brass, and crucible size, needed to cast a barrel in the 36-46" range, including all venting and gating?  When I cast small items like buttplates, boxes etc. I typically just eyeball it and always run enough in the melt that there will be leftover to run into ingot molds.  In a charcoal forge with a hand cranked blower, it's not a quick or thoughtless job, so it seems to be that in order to run a rifle-sized barrel, a fairly extensive foundry would be required; at the least, I would think that something a bit larger than a typical blacksmith's hearth would be requisite, especially if burning charcoal?







Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: The other DWS on April 20, 2012, 03:25:05 PM
I have hesitated to comment, though the topic fascinates me and the way the discussion evolves shows how a lot of the ALR research is accomplished.  However . . . . since this thread first came up I have been wondering about the economic level and technology required to produce a viably functional brass alloy long gun barrel in Colonial America.  Small scale brass casting for parts like buttplate and triggerguard blanks would have been fairly common to anyone with a blacksmith forge and the ability to make a basic sand cast mould. setting up a small business to cast them would have been limited more by economics than technology.  Even pistol barrels might not be too big a reach.  however doing a long gun barrel seems to me to be a significant leap.
I have a couple questions:
What is the speculation as to the "why" of this and other "brass-barrelled" long guns
Has the brass itself been analyzed to find out what the alloy is and how that matches to other colonial produced brass products?
Is there anything that indicates if it was cast hollow and reamed out or of it was cast as a solid bar and then drilled out?

Brass/bronze alloy barrels were not uncommon in marine and other all-weather applications
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: heinz on April 20, 2012, 03:42:44 PM
The technology would not have been that match of a challenge.  I would guess less than a ten pound brass charge in the crucible would be sufficient.  The technology existed to cast bells, canon barrels and lead pipe.  The heat for that size crucible may have been a challenge to a small gun shop, but not to foundries and iron works.  There are some quirks to the calamine brass that was commonly used in the time period.

An interesting thought is these one off items may have been cast using a clay core - lost wax process.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Avlrc on May 02, 2012, 09:44:44 PM
What did it go for?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: louieparker on May 02, 2012, 10:20:34 PM
I don't think it went...LP
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Avlrc on May 02, 2012, 10:25:57 PM
Do you mean no one bid on it at the starting/minimum bid?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: louieparker on May 02, 2012, 11:01:19 PM
I  saw no bid posted, then I believe it said, passed  ..Now it seems to have been removed from the site. It's  not shown in the prices realized...At least I can't find it ....??
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Hurricane ( of Virginia) on May 02, 2012, 11:26:23 PM
The web pages says "return to consignors."
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on May 03, 2012, 12:40:56 AM
What was the opening and/or estimated low on that again?
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: JTR on May 03, 2012, 01:00:12 AM
I don't know the opening, but the estimate, I believe, was $275,000 to $350,000,,,,,,,.......

John
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on May 03, 2012, 01:56:24 AM
Hmm.  Well, I have to say, that rifle is about as unique as it gets when it comes to pre-Federal (pre Rev, for that matter I should say) American rifles, *and* it is really a fantastic piece of folk art in a sense.  Plus the date in the box, the brass barrel...  I personally would simply chalk it up to the current tightening of the belts when it comes to disposable $$ for luxury items.  This attitude certainly has permeated other (unrelated) areas in which I have an interest.

On the other hand, though, that is one mighty chunk of change.  The pool of potential buyers is decreased very dramatically as opposed to the "typical" upper four to low five figure market, and unfortunately - as time passes - that pool of buyers continues to shrink due to changing times and changing interests.

Alternately - maybe Wallace just couldn't bring himself to unload it?

Doesn't change my admiration of the rifle either way.
Title: Re: Brass Barreled Rifle coming up at auction
Post by: Fullstock longrifle on May 03, 2012, 05:39:26 AM
I was told that it didn't get any bids.

FK