AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: mkeen on May 29, 2012, 02:57:38 PM
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I've been told that George Shumway lobbied for antique American guns that looked like a rifle to be called a rifle whether the barrels were rifled or smooth bore. Does anyone have a printed reference for that statement?
Martin
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His articles often referred to smooth rifles, which were also found referenced in period documents.
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Food for thought. Those old barrels were forged from wrought iron, rather soft stuff. We know that the rifling did age
or wear rapidly if shot a lot, hence the survival of freshing sticks. What if the owner decided not to renew the rifling and
would continue shooting, which, eventually would become a smoothbore. If he no longer required a rifle to fight off the
indians, but, was now a "meat getter", I would think that a smoothbore, loaded with shot would be a very practical gun.
Would the term "smooth rifle" be a practical name to apply to such a gun?............Don
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Boring out to smooth happened a lot over a long period of time. My Grandpa had a 1863 Springfield bored smooth and cut to a halfstock. Not that the rifling was that deep!
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George Shumway lobbied
Perhaps that is an inappropriate use of the term. One lobbies to make or change laws. To my knowledge no law exists. Who was he lobbying? Terminology comes about by popular usage, hence acceptance, of said term.
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Examples of LOBBY from Merriam Webster...
an organization that has been lobbying for reform of the tax laws
The health-care industry has lobbied against the proposal.
an organization that has been lobbying Congress for reform of the tax laws
a player who has lobbied hard to be included in the team's starting lineup
I lobbied our company for a new computer.
An open mind saves embarrassment :o ;D ;D............. Perhaps Shumway was lobbying the American Longrifle community?? Seems reasonable.....
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George Shumway was a careful researcher and would sometimes propose things based on his extensive experience collecting, handling and photograhing originals, but was never pushing an agenda in the articles and books I've read. It's important to keep in mind that much of his work was done in the 1970's and 1980's (which is now 30-40 years ago!), and more knowledge has emerged since then. Some of his attributions have turned out to be on the money and others, off-target, but he only made suggestions, not declarations, and did well with what was known at the time.
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Examples of LOBBY from Merriam Webster...
An open mind saves embarrassment
Tim,
I am erudite enough that I don't require a Wiki Ranger correcting me. There are enough people posting here whose sum total of knowledge comes from that venue, along with their assumptions of said material. In the total context of my statement, I think my point was made sufficiently clear, since you followed up with this...
Perhaps Shumway was lobbying the American Longrifle community?? Seems reasonable.....
Purely conjecture on your part, which doesn't seem reasonable to me. Printed documentation was asked for, and barring that everything else is an assumption.
Rich says that he never pushed an agenda, which would indicate he lobbied for nothing.
ps....my mind is more open than most!!!
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Full moon tonight? ;D
John
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John, not where I live.
Perhaps, enough said?
Hurricane
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My, My! There is so much sensitivity here on this website thread. Makes me want to reach for a hanky, or perhaps, throw up, instead.
Reekie
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I'm sure Martin was just asking where--or whether--George Shumway explained in print his reasons for deciding to call a gun that looked like a rifle a rifle even if its barrel was smooth-bored. I don't think any denigration of Mr. Shumway was implied by the term lobby, which, to me at least, just means argued or advocated for (both of which are honorable activities!).
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Every profession, society, club, organization, or group of people who associate for specific purposes, adopt a jargon, jingoism, or words pertinent to their purposes. So, what is wrong with the term 'smooth rifle', a term which I have heard for some 40 years and it perfectly describes that item to which it refers! Suits me just fine and I will continue to use it. A fowler is a shotgun and generally follows the style in use for hundreds of years, and that is how it is.
Dick
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Just curious, amongst those that originated and have posted, on this topic; how many actually OWN books (and other published materials) written and published by George Shumway, Ph.D., Researcher, Editor, Publisher and Advanced Collector? Kindly avail yourself of an opportunity to declare or deny same.
Why? Because I'm always curious where 'open' statements originate from... but can't say that I'm ever really surprised when it's rendered down to the 'nitty-gritty.'
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Just curious, amongst those that originated and have posted, on this topic; how many actually OWN books (and other published materials) written and published by George Shumway
I have not doubt that every correspondent involved in this thread OWNS said books.
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I have not doubt that every correspondent involved in this thread OWNS said books.
You've saved us all a lot of time and in that spirit, kindly let us know if you find any published references, amongst your books/materials that would answer the original poster's question regarding Dr. Shumway.
There's no rush.
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As Dave said, most of us who have lived long enough to have grey hair cut our teeth on Shumway's publications. They were pretty much the only game in town for a while. Between Shumway and Kindig, that was most of our frame of reference for the 60s & 70s. There was a time before computers when people had to do their own research.
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I will give 3 examples of Shumway referring to rifle-built guns that were smoothbored as "rifles" or as "smooth rifles". I do not have enough time or interest for a more full investigation of the subject at hand, but you may draw some conclusions from a small sample if you like.
1) In Muzzle Blasts November 1978 in his Longrifles of Note series of articles, Shumway featured what we know as "RCA19", or #19 in his subsequent book, Rifles of Colonial America. He starts the article with these words, "This rifle...." Towards the end of the article he states, "The barrel of this piece is of the octagon to round variety, and is smoothbored, of .66 caliber.""
2) In Muzzle Blasts November 1993 in the same series of articles George featured a robust plain early rifle-built gun with some features of the Lehigh valley. He begins the article, "Good early rifles..." Later he states "The full octagon barrel is 41 inches in overall length, measures 1 1/8" across the flats at the breech, and is smoothbored at .58 caliber. It's a smooth rifle, as so many of them were."
3) In one of his best articles ever, in MB July 1996, "A Case of Lehigh Valley Longrifle Evolution", he states in the second pargraph, "The three rifles shown here....." In paragraph 4 he states, "Its overall length is 56 1/8 inches, and the octagon to round barrel has a length of 40 1/8 inches."
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The "no. 19 rifle" is included with other colonial rifles because it has every attribute of a rifle other than the rifling. It is a smoothbore. It was built by a riflemaker for someone who specifically requested a smoothbore, as well as some other unique attributes. This is a transitional period gun and, we know now, it was built in the early 1750's. Whether or not it has rifling, it helps tell the story of colonial rifles - as Shumway obviously knew.
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Rich, thank you for the references. This answers my question. I'm preparing a short article for the general public and I wanted to be sure of the information that is in the article. For anyone outside of the gun collecting community the term smooth rifle could be confusing. Based on modern definitions the terminology of smooth rifles is an oxymoron. For the general public some definition of smooth rifles must be presented in any article using that language.
George Shumway was a careful researcher. I don't know how many of the gun collecting community realize he also wrote the absolute best book on the Conestoga wagon. It will probably never be surpassed.
Martin
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The "no. 19 rifle" is included with other colonial rifles because it has every attribute of a rifle other than the rifling. It is a smoothbore. It was built by a riflemaker for someone who specifically requested a smoothbore, as well as some other unique attributes. This is a transitional period gun and, we know now, it was built in the early 1750's. Whether or not it has rifling, it helps tell the story of colonial rifles - as Shumway obviously knew.
Early 1750's?
How do we know?
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I believe Martin may have been prompted to ask the question of Shumway's statement on "smooth rifles", as he was inquiring about my recent book, Lancaster Long Rifles, where John Kolar and I described some long rifles as "smooth bore rifles". In part I replied to Martin that Shumway often "pushed" for the use of the term and Rich is correct--it was in his magazine writing that I found those references. I did not say Shumway "lobbied", although admittedly either word may be overstretching Shumway's opinion, but it is evident by his magazine writing that he did indeed use the term and seems to prefer it.
Moreover, I also told Martin that many of us accept the term-smoothbore rifle, by way of describing a gun which in all appearances (but the inside of the barrel) looks just like a long rifle. Then there is the case of a shot-out and later smoothed out bore that was previously rifled. Without the moniker of smoothbore rifle, what would we then call it?
More importantly- -I believe the long rifle was referred to as a smooth-bore rifle even when it was originally made. I say that based on a number of transactions in the Anthony Fricker Journals (Berks County, c1814) where Fricker has stated sales made to individuals for a "smooth rifle". I do not think this can be interupted in any other way, as the price he charged for the smooth rifle was far more than a refreshing, and only slightly less a "new gun". This seems to show two types of rifles. Like Mr. Gold, I've sued the term for years and feel it is appropriate for our use today--and maybe for Fricker and gunsmiths of the period as well.
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The term "smooth rifle" is a period term that can be found throughout the Pennsylvania Gazette at least back into the 1750s, if not earlier. I have numerous documented examples posted in one particular article on my website, each documented to a specific issue of the PA Gazette.
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The "no. 19 rifle" is included with other colonial rifles because it has every attribute of a rifle other than the rifling. It is a smoothbore. It was built by a riflemaker for someone who specifically requested a smoothbore, as well as some other unique attributes. This is a transitional period gun and, we know now, it was built in the early 1750's. Whether or not it has rifling, it helps tell the story of colonial rifles - as Shumway obviously knew.
Early 1750's?
How do we know?
We actually now know pretty much the exact date and the person it was made for, as well as the builder. It is going to be part of an exhibit for the next few years and there will be presentations of the new research, etc.. That's pretty much all I can say at this point. Extremely interesting.
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I agree the term "smooth rifle" sounds like an oxymoron but since it appears in period texts, we perhaps should continue to use the term. I would add that given the uncertainty whether a gun was rifled originally, owner-collectors naturally prefer their rifle-built guns to be called rifles as it adds value due to the romance of the rifle.
Regarding RCA19 and other unsigned, undated early rifles, we don't know when and where they were made but it sure is fun to guess, and George Shumway postulated 1755 or later for #19. It's a favorite of many as a template for a pre-Revolutionary War rifle.
Just read Tatonka's post and all I can say is hot diggety dog!
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Martin - here is the earliest example of the term I have found, and it may interest you in particular as it notes a situation in Lancaster County:
Collection: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Publication: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Date: September 20, 1739
Title: RUN away on the 6th Inst. from Thomas Rees, of Heydelburg To
RUN away on the 6th Inst. from Thomas Rees, of Heydelburg Township, Lancaster County, a Servant Lad, named Richard Beddes, aged about 17 Years, has light bushy Hair: Had on an old striped linsey Jacket, old linnen Shirt, new Linnen Breeches and an old Hat, no Shoes nor Stockings. Took with him a smooth Rifle Gun. Whoever brings the said Servant to his said Master, or secures him in the County Goal, so that he may be had again, shall have Three Pounds Reward and reasonable Charges, paid by Thomas Rees.
Here's one from Northampton County:
Collection: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Publication: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Date: January 26, 1769
Title: RUN away from his bail, on the 9th of this inst. January, JOHN
RUN away from his bail, on the 9th of this inst. January, JOHN DAVIS, this country born, about 21 years of age, about 5 feet 5 inches high, of a sandy complexion, freckled, had a pretty large scar on the instep of one of his feet, occasioned by the cut of an ax, and he is pretty talkative; had on, when he went away, a blue broadcloth coat, with mohair buttons, a red plush waistcoat, leather breeches, and a fine hat; he also had other clothes, of a light ash colour, lined with striped linsey, the coat had no lining in the sleeves; these he had packed up in a pair of check trowsers; he may dispose of one suit; he took with him a smooth rifle gun, and as he has served his time, he may possibly produce his indenture. Whoever secures the said runaway in any goal, shall have FIVE POUNDS reward, paid by the subscriber in Forks township, Northampton county. GEORGE TIDFORD.
German imports, both rifled barrels and smooth rifles:
Collection: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Publication: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Date: February 17, 1773
Title: Philadelphia, February 15, 1773.
Philadelphia, February 15, 1773. To be SOLD very cheap, for cash only, by CONRAD BATIS, Living in Market street, next door to the corner of Third street, opposite to the goal, in Philadelphia, A QUANTITY of this country and German made RIFLES , both cut and smooth bores, in the best manner; also a quantity of German made GUNS and PISTOLS, likewise gun mountings, barrels and locks, a quantity of violins and violin strings; a reasonable abatement will be made to such as buy a quantity to sell again, of any of the aforesaid articles.
N.B. The said Conrad Batis pays ready money for clean LINEN RAGS.
Maryland:
Collection: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Publication: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Date: May 3, 1775
Title: TWENTY ONE POUNDS Reward.
TWENTY ONE POUNDS Reward. RUN away, last night, from the subscriber, living near Bush river, Harford county, Maryland, 7 English servant men, viz. John Brown, about 35 years of age, about 5 feet 8 inches high, has black hair, large temples, narrow chin and thick lips, used to the sea, and a great swearer. N.B. Has been in the country before. Abraham Peters, about 28 years of age, about 5 feet 9 inches high, has black hair and beard, of a swarthy complexion, his left hand somewhat perished and lame; says he is a Jew, and talks very good Dutch. John Cooley, about 22 years of age, by trade a Plaisterer, about 5 feet 8 inches high, round face and well set; had on a blue fearnought jacket, and a double breasted under jacket, white yarn stockings, and old shoes. William Childs, about 21 years of age, about 5 feet 6 inches high, a Carver and Gilder by trade, and but meanly dressed, which was a blue fearnought jacket, and old shoes, with hob nails. Thomas Able, about 25 years of age, about 5 feet 5 inches high, has a remarkable red face, very rotten teeth, is a great talker and very much pitted with the smallpox; he has been in South Carolina before. William Blancklett, about 27 years of age, about 5 feet 4 inches high, thin visage, sharp nose, black hair and beard. Thomas Sharp, about 15 years of age, about 5 feet 3 inches high, fair complexion; he had on a green coat, blue cuffs; stole and took with him two pair of trowsers, one striped holland and the other ozenbrigs, one white shirt and one check ditto, new felt hat: As Able and Blancklettbreeches were much worn, it is imagined they wear said trowsers. They had and took away with them a country square barrelled, smooth bore GUN, rifle stocked, one pistol, and other firearms; it is supposed they stole a BOAT from Otter Point. Whoever takes up the said servants, shall have, if taken 10 miles from home, Ten Pounds; if out of the county, Fourteen Pounds; and if out of the province, the above reward, or in proportion for each, including what the law allows, paid by BUCKLER BOND,
WILLIAM SMITHSON.
*** It is like they will make for some vessel, therefore all masters of vessels, and others, are hereby forewarned from taking said servants, at their peril.
March 26, 1775.
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Tatonka, Your post regarding RCA 19 is quite a statement. " Extremely Interesting " would be an understatement for me. Your post implies a factual rather than speculative attribution, that would mean so much more. Can't wait to see the research.
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Tatonka, Your post regarding RCA 19 is quite a statement. " Extremely Interesting " would be an understatement for me. Your post implies a factual rather than speculative attribution, that would mean so much more. Can't wait to see the research.
Yep,
Can't wait to examine this new found documentaion. ;)
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Thank you Eric for all the great information from the Pennsylvania Gazette. As usual you have a great deal of information from primary sources. I almost feel I should pay you for the time spent just typing in the response!
I have no problem with the gun collecting community or individuals on this forum using the terminology of smooth rifles. It was definitely used in the past. But I do think you must be prepared to explain the term when speaking or writing to an outside audience in the present day. Every collecting group, hobby or line of work develops its own lingo. If you are not careful you can turn off the "outsiders" and have a reduction in new blood. Not everyone knows the parts of a rifle. An example would be a swamped barrel. I can only imagine what most people would think of that. Would a person unfamiliar with guns even know the location of the muzzle? Just some of my thoughts.
Martin
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I've always felt that calling a Civil War era military long arm a "rifled musket" was at least as odd as calling a civilian long arm build in the style of a rifle a "smooth rifle." For centuries a musket had meant a smooth bore military weapon --- until they started rifling them for conical projectiles.
Obviously both terms date from the periods when these guns were made and used so we just need to get over our notions about precise terminology from a modern dictionary.
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When I first got interested in longrifles I heard/saw the term "smooth rifle" and someone explained that it was built with all the stylistic features of a typical rifle but had a smooth bore..... Made sense and has been useful ever since......... So a smooth rifle may have been built as one or may have evolved into one through use.... Seems like a useful term to distinguish from a rifle gun or a fowling piece etc........ I don't understand the concern......... It just gives me an excuse to tell an unknowledgeable person more about the art and mystery of the American Longrifle!! ;D ;D
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I don't think anybody expressed any concern about the term (though they did about the term "lobbied" :P !).
Given that the term "smooth rifle" might seem puzzling to those who aren't familiar with eighteenth-century guns ('aren't rifles called rifles because their barrels are rifled?'), Martin was just asking about the term's origin--and the posts here make it clear that it dates back to the eighteenth century itself.
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Given that the term "smooth rifle" might seem puzzling to those who aren't familiar with eighteenth-century guns ('aren't rifles called rifles because their barrels are rifled?'), Martin was just asking about the term's origin--and the posts here make it clear that it dates back to the eighteenth century itself.
I would say the data is pretty clear, at least where these publications circulated!! ;D ;D Perhaps we should frame it.....
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Actually, "rifled musket", "rifle musket" and "rifle" all had specific meanings in military terms just before the beginning of the CW. A "rifled musket" was a musket, formerly a smooth bore, that had been rifled. These were invariably .69 caliber and the rifled M1842s with long range sights are probably the best known. A "rifle musket" was a regular infantry length rifle... i.e., it took the place of the formerly smooth bored infantry musket. The "rifle," as distinct from these two, was shorter and became extinct after the M1855. It was the natural descendent of the M1803, 1814, 1817 and 1841. When "riflemen" ceased being a distinctive type of infantry, the term "rifle" passed to the regular infantry arm.
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In the 1980 K.R.A. bulletin there is an article on smooth rifles. The author references an 1808 ledger of Martin Sheetz. Quote The ledger notes in one entry "2 rifle guns,3 smoothrifle guns, 3 shot guns, 1 eating table $105.00." The author states that he would like to see all three types from the same maker. I agree that would be interesting to compare the differences. JIM