AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Breadhead on June 18, 2012, 09:41:58 PM

Title: Deja Vu?
Post by: Breadhead on June 18, 2012, 09:41:58 PM

I was browsing some links from earlier posts and was sent to http://www.michaelsimens.com and started checking out some of his Kentucky Rifle lots.

Boy was I surprised when I came to lot 3355!  This rifle by John Parks Jr. is a almost exact duplicate of a rifle that my father has had in his collection for over thirty years by Alescander H. Seigfried.  I just knew I had to post on here for all to see.

While similar, I find the work a little more deft on the rifle in my fathers collection (although I could be a little biased).

Please take a look at some comparison photos.  Also, I'll try and get some better photo's of my rifle that aren't from such a sharp angle.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michaelsimens.com%2FAdmin%2Fmikesimages%2F3355a.jpg&hash=044ac236a91cb72a3eb0bab6e14da86a5dff706e)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michaelsimens.com%2FAdmin%2Fmikesimages%2F3355b.jpg&hash=c7f17f48b76b80aeca3d5febb6606ec5aa016ad4)
John Parks Jr.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg88.imageshack.us%2Fimg88%2F6809%2Fdsc0785j.jpg&hash=d7c8175572c7230958678b9502aad4b708009610)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg215.imageshack.us%2Fimg215%2F2662%2Fdsc0796s.jpg&hash=475a5eec5ed388efccf19d9e20d91604a0706036)
Alescander H. Siegfried

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michaelsimens.com%2FAdmin%2Fmikesimages%2F3355c.jpg&hash=f0265f6bda8f672de67438daf72fbc6461585b0f)
Parks

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg9.imageshack.us%2Fimg9%2F1804%2Fdsc0694p.jpg&hash=b9122c3f5e97b94cae892cd4819ac90f52738232)
Siegfried

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michaelsimens.com%2FAdmin%2Fmikesimages%2F3355d.jpg&hash=354feefbe9b7512d3ab34aaaff0e1b9fe7fdd335)
Parks

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg507.imageshack.us%2Fimg507%2F1330%2Fdsc0699o.jpg&hash=a8a19dca45f6361749968165d7aa06b6f4e0e8b2)
Siegfried

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg406.imageshack.us%2Fimg406%2F4778%2Fdsc0725e.jpg&hash=346d55f53afe3390db34d4ea6f85e0e97149d59f)
The strong signature of a fine maker.

I also noticed in the "Gunmakers of the Upper Susquehanna Region" post that no examples of A.H. Siegfried were known... well, here you go.

I hope everyone enjoys!

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: oakridge on June 18, 2012, 09:59:57 PM

Nice rifle.  And that's Alexander Siegfried.

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Breadhead on June 18, 2012, 10:04:22 PM

I beg to differ.  Check the signature on the barrel it is quite strong.   Alescander H. Siegfried.

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Paul E. Wog on June 18, 2012, 10:49:24 PM

Wonderful rifles!
Thanks for sharing...now, was this a common style of the area, or, who copied who ??? ???
Also, artistic license on the signature. ???  It appears to me to be an " X " as well, not an " S-C " on the Alexander part ???
It would be Alec-sander; not, Ales-cander ??? ??? me thinks. On that subject, is the middle initial an H, or, a W ???
Just my 2d worth ::)
And, if it appears I am nit-pickin', I assure you that is not the case...I just see letters differently sometimes ;D ;D
                                  Shreck
                         

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Shreckmeister on June 18, 2012, 11:05:53 PM

Shreck, yes you do  :D and your usually right.  That's quite a rifle.  The mystery
begins.

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Curt J on June 19, 2012, 12:02:41 AM

WOW!  What a rifle!  I have a plain maple halfstock marked A. H. SIEGFRIED (stamped with a one-piece stamp), made at a much later date, probably in Indiana.

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: JTR on June 19, 2012, 04:18:48 AM

If you zoom in and look close, I think the s/c letters in the name are actually a stylized x.

Someplace I have some pictures of another rifle of similar designs and workmanship, although unsigned. I'll see if I can find them.....

John

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Loudy on June 19, 2012, 05:32:53 AM

Breadhead,

Thank you for sharing the photos of the Alexander H. Siegfried rifle.  I suspect there was a working relationship between Siegfried and John Parks, Jr..  Parks was only a few years older.  It's possible and quite feasable that they both apprenticed under John Parks Sr.  Below is the biographical information I have on Alexander H. Siegfried.  I suspect, but don't know for sure, that there is a relationship between A. H. Siegfried and rifle barrel maker John Seigfried that lived and worked nearby. 

Mark Loudenslager

Alexander H. Siegfried (or Siegfred)
Born:   October 5, 1821 Pennsylvania (possibly Berks County)
Died:   January 20, 1886 Salem, Penn Township, Snyder County, Pennsylvania
Buried: Row’s Cemetery, Row’s Lutheran, Salem, Penn Township, Snyder County

Alexander Siegfried was a gunsmith that worked in South Bend, Indiana before moving back to his native state of Pennsylvania.  He moved to Indiana sometime before 1847 and moved back to Pennsylvania sometime between 1871 and 1884.  He married Mary E. Camper on September 28, 1847 in St. Joseph County, Indiana. 

The following was taken from “The History of Row’s Church”, Salem (near Selinsgrove).  The original records are written in German.  In the 1930’s the records were translated and rewritten in English as a WPA project. 

“A building next to the Moyer homestead (now belongs to Ira Yoder) was torn down in 1884.  This building was built from the logs from the 1st Row’s Church sometime around 1855.  Mr. A. H. Siegfred for many years pursued the trade of gun making in this building.”

It is possible that Alexander was the brother or cousin of gun-barrel maker John Siefried that worked in the nearby Penn’s Creek area in Centre Township, Snyder County.  Future research may tie these individuals to the Siegfried gun-barrel makers from Berks County.

1850 Federal Census, Indiana, St. Joseph County, Portage Township
Alexander H. Seigfried, age 28, occupation “Gun Smith”, b. PA; Mary S., age 23, b. VA; Francis, age 1, b. IN; Adaline Camper, age 12, b. IN; James Camper, age 14, b. IN

1860 Federal Census, Indiana, St. Joseph County, South Bend, p. 26
A. H. Sigfred, age 38, occupation “Gunsmith”, b. PA; Sarah F., age 26, b.NY; Ella, age 5, b. IN; Estella, age 3, b. IN; Rachel Van Norden, age 59, b. NY.

1870 Federal Census, Indiana, St. Joseph County, Portage Township, p. 89.
Alex. H. Seifried, age 46, occupation “Life Insurance Agent”, b. PA; Fanny, age 20, b. IN; Frank, age 21, b. IN; Alla, age 15, b. IN; Estella, age 13, b. IN; Lilla, age 10, b. IN; Ettie, age 8, b. IN; Maggie Biddle, age 22, occupation “Dressmaker”, b. IN.

1880 Federal Census, Pennsylvania, Penn Township, District 147, p. 1
Alexander H. Siegfried, age 58, occupation “Tempering Steel Tools”, b. PA; Sarah F., age 30, “Wife”, b. IN; Lillie C., age 19, b. IN; Etta R., age 17, b. IN; Edward B., age 9, b. IN; Hiram A., age 6, born PA; Sarah F., age 4, b. PA; Grace C., age 1, b. PA.

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Paul E. Wog on June 19, 2012, 05:46:42 AM

Mark,
  Concise, informative, and well-written.
  Good research in tying together the makers in question. Thanks for your efforts ;D
  Fascinating stuff!
                               Shreck

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Loudy on June 19, 2012, 05:48:11 AM

Breadhead,

There's another gun worth looking at in Fred Garner MD's great online book on Upper Susquehanna rifles.  Use the following link to get to the page.  

http://hurricanenordgallery.com/index.php?topic=16.0

The gun is labled "Charles Baum (attributed) Rifle #2".  There are plenty of similarities between all three of these rifles.  I don't think this third gun was made by Charles Baum.  I have good reason to believe it was made by another gunsmith that had close ties to the John Parks Jr. and Sr., and apparently the A. H. Siegfried also.  

Mark Loudenslager  

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Eric Smith on June 19, 2012, 06:27:28 PM

Whoa, those rifles are heavily decorated. And they say contemporarys are too much.

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: axelp on June 19, 2012, 10:49:44 PM

 yeah a liitle sparce on the inlets

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Breadhead on June 20, 2012, 05:15:55 PM

Quote from: oakridge on June 18, 2012, 09:59:57 PM

Nice rifle.  And that's Alexander Siegfried.

Ok, I stand corrected.  Upon CLOSE examination of the picture of the signature, I can see the stylized "x".  I hope that everyone can see that it does look like an s and c shape (hence my confusion)... only there is a line connecting them making an "x".  Now I just have to convince my father of this...

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg526.imageshack.us%2Fimg526%2F8209%2Fsig2dk.jpg&hash=88818ed6f9a4093407d51fbd03e04dbec54e14f7)

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Majorjoel on June 21, 2012, 02:26:21 AM

Breadhead, it's all in the family. You can believe anything you want. :D Very nice rifle by the way!

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: jeanf63 on August 13, 2017, 09:17:51 PM

I know this is a very old thread, but I would love to see a picture of this rifle.  Alexander Hiram Siegfried was the great great grandfather of my husband, a huge gun lover.  I was doing some family history research and came upon this forum thread, but the picture isn't here anymore unless I'm missing something.

Thank you,
Jean
Central Texas

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Hungry Horse on August 14, 2017, 10:14:36 PM

 Am l the only one that can't see the pictures? I have seen several large diameter target barrels set up for a false muzzle signed Siegfried. These were all late percussion guns, could this be the same smith, or family?

  Hungry Horse

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Dennis Glazener on August 14, 2017, 10:54:33 PM

jeanf63,
There are no photo's at the end of those links (one of our members linked to photos from another site 5 years ago). Sometime in the last 5 years the actual photos of the rifle were removed from michaelsimens.com website. This thread was opened 6/28/2012. The only suggestion I might have is to contact  michaelsimens.com and see if they can put you in contact with whomever purchased that rifle. Hate to say it but your chances are slim but maybe worth trying.
Dennis Glazener
ALR Admin

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Breadhead on August 14, 2017, 11:33:00 PM

I may have the photos somewhere for both rifles...  I know I can produce half of them as the Siegfried can be in hand.

Title: Re: Deja Vu?
Post by: Breadhead on August 15, 2017, 10:06:18 PM

Parkes Rifle Pictures
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fl14BdOa.jpg&hash=fabaf21abbd91678d84c6c52bc2f447500f9580e)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWiT6G6U.jpg&hash=04bcd10796435886e4c3aa7cf2414c604f48ace9)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fnl1tdcC.jpg&hash=176682aad42f0fef563b5e6e69f71b04ae42ff24)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIKpBiu1.jpg&hash=0208e1c76233b20da0ff6f07e1a85d77dbae8e5e)

Alexander Siegfried Rifle

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdSg3xTc.jpg&hash=bedc7cf0e731fbe01b3e346be597592081d39e86)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9QeepkF.jpg&hash=7d5e34aaca375ba1bbb47ca57d0104c7647b2224)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2wUMCVp.jpg&hash=a2f6513a0d5b8a5262d4547cbe4ea6efb1f1bfc9)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZGqjUuO.jpg&hash=3c3737c71792f476fad9242e2b7193172946b2c7)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUOxeAGr.jpg&hash=19a0bfeb42b059ee8a0bf6a685588e4b9d32b079)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSJf2P0z.jpg&hash=23b51511fd61356f437caa6e667ed12411d8756d)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcpY5cKv.jpg&hash=28dcfc908244e9e0aef5fa6fe586521ea17e6b3b)