AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: G-Man on December 13, 2012, 03:25:01 PM
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Art and Jan have some photos postedon the Blog Spot today of a really unusual iron mounted southern rifle. The flip out bayonet in the toe of the buttstock and the iron strapping/decoration running beneath the comb on each side, as well as some of the other iron work, are very unusual. I saw the gun at Norris but did not get a chance to talk to the owner much - I seem to recall something about it possibly being a South Carolina (?) piece but might be way off. Maybe one of you other folks who frequent that show can add a bit more information. But it is really and intersting, and appealing, gun as well. Check it out.
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/
Guy
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I was not aware that Dr Frankenstein made long rifles.
;D
Dan
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What a puzzling rifle this is. The extra trigger, or tripping device, behind the trigger guard, and what appears to be some sort of spring, cut into the toe and around under the buttplate has me totally baffled. I have no idea what this thing was built for.
Hungry Horse
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:oLooks like lots of 'ingenuity' went into that rifle. I'm sure someone thought it was a good idea at the time. Seems the butt area of the stock went through many 'mods' and got a lot of use, but the front half is still very nice.
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So that's a bayonet... my first thought is that the gun was modified by the confederates for firing over trench walls.
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interesting patch box...
Isn't that bayonet on the wrong end?
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I have no idea of the origin of this rifle but I could see some southern militia man that served or having served with Andrew Jackson in some of the Indian wars making or having made a rifle like this. Certainly looks like it was designed by a man that wanted his rifle to have a bayonet!
Dennis
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Sure would have been simpler to put the bayonet on in the standard fashion. Very unique gun. Wish
I had found it.
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This gun probably has a relativley heavy barrel - probably a lot more muzzle heavy than most guns fitted wtih bayonets. So being able to hold it by the barrel end might have made for a faster-weilding bayonet than if it were set up the other way.
Just a thought.
Guy
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Perhaps it's not intended to be used as a bayonet, but rather to spike into the ground to secure the buttstock and then rest the fore end over a log/berm/sticks for more precise shooting at long ranges.
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I saw this rifle at Norris. Guy and I both looked at it. It is very strange. And also as awkward as you could possibly want in an iron mounted gun. May have been a concept piece like the Nock volley gun. Bcck when they did not have cocktail napkins to scribble on they just cut metal and then tried to figure it out when they sobered up?
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Given a heavy barrel and set triggers, plus the butt-mounted switch-blade bayonet, my speculation is that it was for (what we call) "sniping" and defensive use by someone standing on a fortification. The blade mounted on the butt would be much handier for repelling attackers coming up a ladder or steep bank than the traditional barrel mounted bayonet. The butt stock shaping is somewhat similar to the Sheetz rifle that M. Tornichio copied, but there is a mishmash of what look like early and late features. I doubt it is as early as Wo1812, but possibly. Probably cobbled together for a specific use, but maybe not as useless as it might seem at first.
Any idea what the staple behind the lock was for?
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Oh yes, I like the patchbox. Probably a greasehole then covered with the sliding door held in place with staples. Gives me some ideas.
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I just don't see it. Close quarters fighting, sweaty hands and trying to fight holding onto the
barrel end and thrusting the butt end toward your attacker. I buy into the sniping idea of
planting that spike in the ground, unless it flips all the way pointing opposite the muzzle.
No pictures of the spike extended? It looks like it's only about 7 inches long. Pretty short
for a bayonet.
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Hold the gun normally and swing and thrust it. It's called a butt stroke...but you guys knew that, right?
I like this gun a lot and it's a great example of how everything Hollywierd dreams up was thought of before. It just looks like it came out of some strange movie. "Sci-Fi" flintlock!!! Wow.
Enjoy, J.D.
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I'd buy it in a heartbeat if it was for sale,,,,,, and if I had any money....
John
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It's definitely 'all business'!
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if memory serves... the bayonet flips out al the way along the same plane as the barrel... handy if the first shot did not dispatch the bear...
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The owner has identified it, thanks to a cartouche on the barrel, as a Charleston, SC- made rifle. It, undoubtedly, was custom made for a buyer who had definite (and unusual) specifications. No question it is one-of-a-kind!
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frog gigging gun?
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I haven't seen a separate photo of the bayonet, but can't help but wonder if there isn't a closer relationship between the 'bayonet,' the 'eye' located behind the cock, the 'bump' in the triggerguard and the trigger.
Could not a piece of leather or twine, threaded through these points and terminated at or pivoting somewhere along this 'bayonet' (which itself pivots/hinges at the bottom of the toe of the butt stock,) permit a 'remote' method of firing this flintlock, while not even holding it?
Intriguing, if not unusual elements to say the least. The sliding cover secured by staples is pretty slick. The other holes... more intriguing yet.
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Maybe a gator getter??
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Squire Boone's toothpick
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Back when they did not have cocktail napkins to scribble on they just cut metal and then tried to figure it out when they sobered up?
My vote for tag line of 2012.
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2nd vote on that!
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The so-called 'bayonet' makes more sense as a 'stake,' as proposed, earlier, by Suzkat, to position and plant the butt, at different angles of inclination, than to be used as a defensive close-quarters weapon against man or beast. Too many other, more stable, options were available to a man who simply wanted a 'bayonet.'
Frog gigging and gators? Indeed... The work, on this piece, may be inventive in appearance, but it was completed and finished with considerable purpose, by a reasoning 19th C. mind. I'm doubtful it was an afterthought.
Having spent a considerable time, in the field, I can assure you that drawings made in dirt, with sticks, will suffice for design work, when napkins aren't available. And, regardless the period, I still think the common man put a sufficient value on his time and his available materials, not to waste them, both, indiscriminately.
We have abundant technology, but have lost our sense of getting actual work done.
We recognize and admire it today, as an art form, yet in it's proper context, this was a 19th. C. tool and it was expected to perform work.
But, you already knew that... :P
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Everyone is calling that butt thingee a bayonet, have we proof of that? It looks to me as if it has a lug on the "point" instead of a point for stabbing. The lug comes up through a plate and has a "L" shaped key. The plate has a handle and a screw that is forward of the lug, that seems to be the way to deploy the "bayonet." Unscrew, take out the key, push the lug down, slide the plate - device deployed. Now tighten it all back up and stow the little key. Pretty involved for close combat. I know dang well I would loose that tiny key, often.
I am thinking trench works and sniping with long waits between shots, Petersburg style. Note the patched round hole on the right side of the stock about 2/3rds from the buttplate, round, filled with a dowel it looks like. that could have served as another aid. Say with a rod sticking out - Position the gun, use the rod and butt plate thing to steady the gun and keep it aimed - perhaps at an enemy embrasure, and wait until someone shows then touch off the weapon. The only problem with all of that is reloading, you would have to undo all of your hard work.
But, snipers are a patient lot, underhanded, sneaky and have no honor IMHO.
dp
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Both the Army and USMC snipers are some of the finest anti idiot
systems on the face of the earth. Ask the Somali pirates about Navy
SEAL snipers.They be good at what they do,eh boss?
Bob Roller
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Neat gun. A lot of work went into this one at the time. I really like the box lid. This gun fits right in with some of my weird work. THANKS Art & Jan
Eitnier Rifles
Iron Mounted Southern Guns
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I have never seen one like it . My guess it that is is a sniper rifle. You pull the pin, push the lil plate forward, that releases the iron leg. Flip that leg back & it locks into position. Lay up in a tree, this would be nice to have to rest the butt of the rifle while waiting for the target to show. Also possible it is adjustable & used to elevate the butt in a ground position. Would really like to examine it in hand. Quite a unique rifle.
Keith Lisle
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Heinz said he and Guy examined this rifle at Norris. Perhaps he can chime in again and comment on this butt "contraption" and it's construction. There's a lot of conjecture here....some of which could probably be dispelled if we knew how it works.
Any chance someone here knows the owner and additional pictures could be provided? Enjoy, J.D.
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Charming rifle! I also wonder if this rifle hadn't been modified as an alarm, trap or ambush piece? Looking at the staple behind the tail of the lock along with the contour of the wood above the staple, I see how it conceivably could route a trigger trip line line forward of the muzzle. And as others have mentioned, the folded blade as a spike to anchor the toe of the stock?
It would be interesting to see photos of the blade and to know if there is any provision to lock the blade in one particular position. To me, it seems impractical as a bayonet and the mounting weak for that purpose. tim
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New information now on the blog.
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Thanks for bringing our attention to the update. Enjoy, J.D.
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Any chance that we can see (representative) photos of this device/appurtenance in an extended/deployed position? And, if possible, a bit more on the method that both retains and releases it, for use.
From all appearances, I think it's remarkable, that it remained wholly intact.