AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Dean2 on January 21, 2013, 11:20:03 PM
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If you had 10,000 to spend on having an American Syle longrifle of the late flintlock era, say 1820 or so, who would you pick to build the rifle for you. If from a kit, who's kit, if from scratch would that change your choice of builder? Look forward to your thoughts.
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Hi Dean,
There are many great builders and many are members of this forum. A lot also depends on the style of gun you might like. Given my personal tastes, if I had 10k with which to purchase a gun, I would let Jim Kibler build whatever he desires and buy it.
dave
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Hard to do a short list. Comes to mind Allen Martin and Mark Wheland easterners, Dave Rase and Ron Scott westerners, and Brent Gurtek in the middle for his underhammers.
I'm of the belief that there are more master-quality muzzleloader makers today than at any time in US history. No question. :o
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Ten grand to spend on a new-production rifle?
When I was a kid, I had access to a Nicholas Beyer rifle that is one of my favorite rifles. I'd spend some of the money to locate and document or borrow that rifle to use as a basis for the build, but as the rifle was new rather than in the current condition.
If working from a kit, I'd go with one of Mr. Klein's Beck kits and have him do the work. If from scratch, I'd contact Louie Parker, Dan Phariss, or Dave Rase.
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Chuck Edwards, Jim Kibler, An 8 or 10 more that I cant think of now
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All the above are great builders, but one name you don't hear about much is Mike Gahagan. I consider him to easily be one of the top five makers working today. Ten grand would get you a true masterpiece from Mike.
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Ian Pratt, Jim Kibler, Frank House. I might need to throw in the car for Frank.
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Absolutely, with out a doubt........ Allen Martin!!! Once you've handled one of his, you'll get it. A certain warmth, character, and craftsmanship that's nearly impossible to match. Give him a general idea, and let him do the rest.
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I believe master Chambers is being very modest here - he makes beautiful long rifles. Other than that I'll not name anyone on the site here but there are many whom I admire for their great skills.
dave
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Ian Pratt, Jim Kibler, Frank House. I might need to throw in the car for Frank.
Funny seeing Jim Kibler bookended by those two masters of iron. ;D
I like Ian's work and my wife one of his biggest fans. There are several other builders that I admire too including some that have been named already. I'll add Bill Shipman to the list. I don't know exactly how to put his work into words other than to say everything he does just seem "right".
Enjoy, J.D.
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I noticed the topic was LATE FLINTLOCK period. Bill Shipman and Taylor Sapergia come to mind for fine rifles closely modeled after originals. Ian Pratt for something with more artistic license especially in iron. Eric Kettenberg for an aged Northampton rifle. For something really fancy a Brennan though $10K might not get it done. Some makers who are retired or rarely build really appeal to me. Would love to have a Freddy Harrison rifle with all the little surprises.
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Besides all those great makers mentioned...
I'd try to buy one like this from George Potter
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2011/10/george-potter.html
but I have doubts that 10k would do it.
tca
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My choice would be based on type of rifle i was interested in at given time!!!! Tough choice, Makers I've admired are Bob Harn, Randy Sherman & Allen Martin.....
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Well here is a nice pistol I like by Nate McKenzie
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/01/upper-susquehanna-style-pistol-by-nate.html (http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/01/upper-susquehanna-style-pistol-by-nate.html)
I would love a gun by any mentioned above, or Mike Brooks, Jerry Huddleston or Hugh Tjoenes (these last two would not even be close to $10,000, but they build some beautiful high art guns.
Oh. and don't lets not forget Cody Tetachuk!!
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I'm the sort who'd pick someone whose name i know from the halls of this here forum.
Just because those guys are giving back in a way that we can all participate. This is not to say that there aren't wonderful builders out there doing the same in more traditional ways or formats or venues. Nothing against them, they are there and i am here.
As important to me as the technical aspects of a build, for a build of that "caliber", is to be able to hold a conversation or two with the builder and feel the right vibe. I'm odd that way. But then we all have our odd ways.
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My choices, H House, Marv Kemper or Ian Pratt!
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not sure if Brad Emig could for $10,000...
would be my choice
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No disrespect to the makers already listed, but I'd have to go back in time a little bit and find a rifle by John Bivens. John lived nearby and was my "hero" builder, but I was never able to scrape together the funds to get him to make one for me. Now it's too late. But I'd still consider him a Modern Maker and one of the best ever.
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There is much to admire. Can't name names without leaving people out. This list is pretty long. We are living in another Golden Age.
It never ceases to amaze me how many good makers there are.
Dan
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I agree with Dan on the many to admire list and trying to choose amongst them Having said that, I have to give credit to William C. Young for mentoring my builds for 35 years or so. Historical knowledge, right tool know how and eye for the small finishing details may get into my efforts yet.
Ray
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Every name mentioned so far I'd be proud to own a rifle from them. Asking the "who do you admire" question is like asking an exotic car collector which car do I like the most. Let's see...hmmm....should I take the Lamborgini out for a spin, or the Bugotti Veyron, the Lotus, or the Jaguar XJ7, the Pantera or the Ferrari. Get it? ;) And ya can't even shoot fresh venison with any of those "toys"! ;D
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I'd have Eric Kettenburg or Allen Martin build me a lehigh or go for one of Ian Pratt's iron maidens for something different..or maybe a Nicholas Hawk from Bill Shipman. So many quality builders out there today that I haven't seen much of their work.
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I found the variety of builders and answers provided to be tremendously interesting and educational. To be honest I had expected a lot more commonality and consistency in the answers. There were over 28 separate names provide. The builders with the most recommendations or mentions were Allan Martin at 5, Ian Pratt at 5 and Jim Kibbler at 3.
Kermit made the comment that he thinks there may be more talented Flintlock builders alive today than when they were originally built and after seeing all these recommendations I think I agree with him.
Since very few people have $10,000 to spend on a gun I am going to post the same topic with $2,500 as the target price. I am sure this will reduce the field considerably.
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I wouldn't have anyone build me a late flint gun, I just have no intrest in them. If I had my choice and alot more than 10K I'd have Ken Gahagan build some sort of NE fowler he was excited about, Ken netting would build his version of a NE fowler, Eric K would build what ever he liked, A Martin would build me a lehigh and Mark Silver would build a nice 1760's style English gun.
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I would second Mike's choice of Mark Silver. I recieved an Antes style longrifle from Mark at Friendship this past June it is everything I hoped for and more. I really enjoyed working with Mark in deciding the details of the rifle. It is not a documentery copy but built in the same style as the Antes in the Moravian book. If it wasn't so danged hard to post pictures I'd post pics of the rifle. Can't say enough nice things about Mark and his work. Tim Cosby
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There are so many I like. David Price, Silver, Chambers, Kibler, Shipman, Martin, Brumfield, Castile, Sapergia, Huddleston, and many others. I think the idea is to pick a maker and get out of his way. It would be a shame to get in the way of what they can do.
Regards,
Pletch
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I'm with Pletch. For example,I commisioned 9 flintlocks.2 by Ron Scott,2 by Mike Miller,2 by Marvin Kemper,2 by Jim Turpin, and 1 by Mike Coggeshall. I told them what style I was looking for and measurements and when they asked me if I had any ideas I would tell them that they were building the gun and they all smiled and kept in contact about progress. As Pletch said "I got out of their way",I always got way more of a firearm by letting them have free reign with their artistic craftsmanship. Just my 7 cents worth.
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And ya can't even shoot fresh venison with any of those "toys"! ;D
No,but ya can out run 'em! Or over 'em!
If given the chance,how WOULD ya pick? Jim Kibler's work is incredable,Jud Brennan,HOLY COW!,Brent Gurtek,YIKE'S! And the list of the makers named here are phenomenal!
I guess for me,and only because he was the first "Famous" maker I met and who took the time to go over my first build (@1988,gun was built @'82)and give an honest and very "kind" critique of my work and gave some awsome advise and encouragment would be Hershal House. But I really need to get out more and rub elbow's with our current modern "Master's"! Meeting and laughing with John Schippers was another highlight fromlast year also. But 10K wouldnt even be a down payment i would imagine. And I'm hoping Hershal would give a "family"discount!
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If given the chance,how WOULD ya pick?
I can't speak for anyone else, but as for me: I cheated! I picked a particular rifle I like, and selected makers I knew could do a wonderful job of building what I wanted. If it somehow actually came about that I had the funds to do this, I'd only hope I could interest one of them in the project.
Without that as a guideline, I'd be as lost as anyone . . . .
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I think Taylor Sapergia here In Prince george British Columbia's worth a look :)
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Taylor HAS to be one of the top makers on the North American scene.
I recommended him to a father and son who both want rifles made.
Bob Roller
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Yikes...... How about some of the Masters from Williamsburg. Gusler, Frazer & Suitor.
So many masters today with a style all their own! Additionally when I receive a great firelock from a modern day master I feel guilty almost immediately not because I did not get it from another builder but because a I did not let another builder to exercise their creativity. Oh, I do not think anybody mention Mark Thomas, what a fine fellow.
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Royland Southgate, Clay Smith
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I can think of three michigan masters that haven't been mentioned Tom Caster,Homer dangler,and Dennis Priddy I would be proud to have one of their rifles. I had a very early Judd Brenn rifle that he made when he was just starting out sad to say I sold it .
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Thankfully, (;) ...somethin bout that ain't right!) I doubt I'll ever have to make that decision, because I'd have a mighty hard time deciding. There are certain features and styles that draw me to quite a number of today's masters, and in addition there are a number of already completed guns that I'd be more than tickled to have.
The list of makers includes, but is not limited to: Chambers, Silver, Gusler, Brumfield, Harn, Bivins, Shipman, Kibler, Martin, Wheland, Sapergia, Pratt... just to name a few.
I am especially partial to first handful on the list because of their more than generous sharing of knowledge back when I was just getting started in this, and they didn't know me from Adam.
Jeff
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I am familiar with Marvin Kemper. I was wondering if any of the others mentioned are from Indiana?
Hall Rifle
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I want to add Jackie Brown to my list. True,he isnt a $2500.00 gunbuilder,but there is something about his guns that seem's kinda,honest. I have a couple of them and enjoy hunting with each and every one of them.
And I like the way Mike Brook's answered,letting the maker "Do his thing!" If given the oppertunity to hire H.House,that's exactlly how I would say it.Only problem would be what caliber? Squirrel?,Deer? Other than that,build me a GREAT gun!
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I also like the looks of Jackie Brown's rifles.Plain as a fence post
but very useful,especially in a large caliber.I just bought a fine Ford F150
truck from our youngest son and that took my gun money for a while.
A new S&W 44 Special will have to wait along with the muzzleloader.
Bob Roller
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That is a difficult decision to make, so many good builders. Since I didn't make the list, I was thinking of makeing a
Special "Christian's Spring" barn gun, with either copper, steel, brass, or silver staples. You can tell it has been a long
winter, one gets to think too much, ha..........Don
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About anything shown on the makers blog Ken Gahagan makes, especially his "composite" fowlers are my favorite.
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All the builders that have been mentioned along with Ken Guy for a Tennessee Mountain rifle and Nate Mckenzie.
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I'd have Hersel House make me a iron mounted squirrel rifle. Properly .36 caliber, then I'd let him figure out the rest.
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I can talk with Bob Elka, Willis, Michigan, and see his work yearly at the Lapeer show. One of his more elaborate works was featured in Muzzle Blasts some time earlier this year. Right now he has my swamped Green Mountain barrel & brass Chambers Siler lock which is intended for (probably) a Frederick Sell.
I made such a rifle some years ago, but it is just a tad too small for me.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi451.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq240%2F4JamesKelly%2FSellrightarrow005low.jpg&hash=a192d8ebeabc62f87fa891b72374994db7e458c2) (http://s451.photobucket.com/user/4JamesKelly/media/Sellrightarrow005low.jpg.html)
Put this on P-bucket before they made those unspeakably miserable changes, don't believe I will ever again be able to use it for anything new. If someone knows of another site, kinda like photobucket used to be, I'd sure like to hear about it.
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My favorite gunmaker has been, and remains, Brad Emig.
Having said that, I would love to have a rifle, fowler or pistol from Taylor Sapergia, Tom Curran or Mike Miller. Brad's son Shane is a darned good gunsmith too.
Ez
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I can talk with Bob Elka, Willis, Michigan, and see his work yearly at the Lapeer show. One of his more elaborate works was featured in Muzzle Blasts some time earlier this year. Right now he has my swamped Green Mountain barrel & brass Chambers Siler lock which is intended for (probably) a Frederick Sell.
I made such a rifle some years ago, but it is just a tad too small for me.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi451.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq240%2F4JamesKelly%2FSellrightarrow005low.jpg&hash=a192d8ebeabc62f87fa891b72374994db7e458c2) (http://s451.photobucket.com/user/4JamesKelly/media/Sellrightarrow005low.jpg.html)
Put this on P-bucket before they made those unspeakably miserable changes, don't believe I will ever again be able to use it for anything new. If someone knows of another site, kinda like photobucket used to be, I'd sure like to hear about it.
I use Image Shack. Much easier to use than even the old Photobucket and they don't collect all the personal info PB does.
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If I had an extra $10,000 to spend on a gun I'd get the brakes fixed on my rusty old pickup truck. I couldn't spend that much on a gun. It goes against my raising. I do have likes & dislikes in guns though. I don't care for those guns that have all the wire and sheet inlays. It is gaudy IMHO. Simple and functional is what I like. I admire Mike Brooks and his fowlers & trade guns & Ken Gahagan fowling guns just plain knock me out. I have an early (1969) gun built by JR Salvo that has meaning to me too but it ain't no $10,000 gun. :/
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I feel the same way about these over done and gaudy guns either.
Plain as a post with good profile (eye appeal)and tight inletting get
my attention at any show including the CLR show in Lexington.
Bob Roller
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Regardless of the inlays building a rifle takes time and effort and if its costs $10,000.00 well then its costs $10,000.00. I don't and won't work for minimum wage and I don't expect the guy who is building my rifle to work for minimum wage either. He has to eat too.
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This is a first. I have had others ask me about the price of a bench crafted lock
when I tell them I get $150 for a Hawken lock,thet will reply "$150 for a LOCK'?
My reply is always blunt,"No,the lock is free but the labor/time it takes to make it isn't.
I have no time for such people.
Bob Roller
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Bob, your work is worth every dime you charge for it! if I had the $10,000 and could actually spend it :) I would ask jack haugh to build something for me or get a dennis priddy air rifle! sorry!
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I don't either Bob!! Those kind of people are always looking to 'get over' on someone or always looking for someone to help them. Free of charge of course.
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Wow! Thank you, Dean2, I was able to use Image Shack to post a wheel lock photo on Gun Building.
Easy to use, as you said.
So, this being a Contemporary Longrifle thread, here is a rather short one, a Jacob Kuntz pistol I made for my late father, early 1980's. .45 cal, 7/8" octagon barrel filed (no lathe work, all you machinist types) half-round. Silver buttcap, barely visible, hammered out into an end-grain oak die. "Economized" on sterling silver sideplate by soldering thin gage silver to a brass base.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg46%2F7630%2Fetfc.jpg&hash=c116480cc2b48d34e57699bce6e33c226e7559d1)
Courtesy of imageschack.us
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Jim,
When I was about 17,I filed a round barrel to octagon,all 10" of it.
It is now 60 years later and I have no real desire to do that again.
My old friend,the late Marshal Ralph Hooker once filed a 48" rifle barrel from
round to octagon.That has to be some kind of record because he was past 60
when he did it.
That is a fine looking pistol no matter how you made it.
Bob Roller
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Noone said Roy Stroh? I'm still pretty new at this but I think his work is on par with many of the names mentioned. Like many of the artists named he seems to have a knack for following his own instincts and turning out expertly made work that capture the spirit of the medium they are working with.
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I will 2nd Roy Stroh. I have handled alot of his guns... and shot a few. He is a great competitive shooter and that is reflected in the accuracy of his guns. He has a rare talent, combined with a brilliant ability to execute his artistic vision.
Plus, he smokes a mean brisket... ;D
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From what I have seen Taylor, Ace, or I like what I have seen done by Dr. Tim Boone
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Gentlemen,
With so many master 'smiths today I would base my choice on one that I know personally rather than just an acknowledged master that I wasn't acquainted with. This gives a connection to the rifle that is very valuable at the personal level. I believe that this was a factor back in the old days, as well. It's the reason I collect Don King rifles.
So...10 grand in my pocket to spend on a contemporary rifle? I'd be walking into Mr. Phariss' shop and saying "Hey, old buddy...you know that C. Beck double rifle on page 263 of Kindig's? What...you haven't started yet?"
(By the way, Dan...I already have the barrels.)
Steve
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Don't know if I saw Keith Casteel mentioned and I know that Keith kinda sticks to a transition style rifle, which is earlier than you mentioned. I believe the last I knew his rifles started at $10,000, but his chisel engraving of all furniture is amazing--akin to the old masters of Europe. Then there is Brian LaMaster, a protoge of Keith. Also, what about Wallace Gusler and Wayne Watson? There are just a plethora of great builders, that it would be hard to pick one and the really great ones probably can't be touched for $10K. Oh, also left out Allan Sandy, whose wire inlay is crazy !! And Tim Williams--held a couple of his rifles at Fort Frederick this year and they are absolutely beautiful to look at and they hold and point even better. He builds them to use, not just to collect.
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This is a first. I have had others ask me about the price of a bench crafted lock
when I tell them I get $150 for a Hawken lock,thet will reply "$150 for a LOCK'?
My reply is always blunt,"No,the lock is free but the labor/time it takes to make it isn't.
I have no time for such people.
Bob Roller
Yet those same people will pay $135 for a lock made entirely from castings. I'm no expert lock filer, but I know how much work goes into making some of those parts when repairing locks and I've made a mule ear from scratch just based on some fuzzy photos. I hope to get started this week on forging a flint lock from wrought iron and though excited about it, I kinda dread it, especially with all this heat and humidity. Besides, I ain't done any forging for quite a while. But I've got this old "new" Getz barrel that deserves a proper lock to go with it...
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Wow! Thank you, Dean2, I was able to use Image Shack to post a wheel lock photo on Gun Building.
Easy to use, as you said.
So, this being a Contemporary Longrifle thread, here is a rather short one, a Jacob Kuntz pistol I made for my late father, early 1980's. .45 cal, 7/8" octagon barrel filed (no lathe work, all you machinist types) half-round. Silver buttcap, barely visible, hammered out into an end-grain oak die. "Economized" on sterling silver sideplate by soldering thin gage silver to a brass base.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg46%2F7630%2Fetfc.jpg&hash=c116480cc2b48d34e57699bce6e33c226e7559d1)
Courtesy of imageschack.us
\
Glad that worked out for you or we would not have got to see that very nice looking pistol. Good job, especially on a tight budget.
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For 10 Grand? Id pick up a RDIAS........
Or Id get a pair of Jerry Scales rifles, one to use and another to admire.......
Or Id get 5 2K rifles from guys like Kyle Schumacher who are the future.
Any rifle I buy has to be able to survive horse and canoe wrecks, a week long rainsoaked hunting trip, I cant buy rifles to hang on the wall, especially one that would cost 10K? that would need to be in a safe, not on display, and that would be a shame.
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Luke I understand what you are saying. But there are no contemporary rifles that should be delegated to the wall or safe. They are meant to be shot. You cannot hurt them by using them, but horses can! Yet I regularly subject by best rifles to whatever comes. For me anyway, the joy is not the possession of the thing, but the application of it. If I should ever come into money like that, I intend to acquire more than one such contemporary rifle...already have at least three builders in mind. And they will have to survive the Great White North!!
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D Taylor and Luke
I agree with both of you. I have some very fancy finnished rifles but I do not have any that don't get to go out and do what they were built for. While some of them are truly art, they are also very functional at their primary purpose. I know some think it is wrong to ding up a great work of art, but the beauty of a gun is its form and FUNCTION. The best memories I have of any gun is the using of it, not the looking at it.
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Fine guns are like major classic cars,if they can't be used,sell them.
We have a friend in St.Louis that has a Duesenberg that he drives
sometimes and one day while waiting for a light to change,two young guys pulled
up beside of him and asked him why he drove that old car.His reply was,"My retirement
went to $#*! and it's all I can afford".That car has a minimum current value of around
a million dollars.
Bob Roller
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Hey Bob,that is one of the best comebacks I have ever heard.Dave
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Luke I understand what you are saying. But there are no contemporary rifles that should be delegated to the wall or safe. They are meant to be shot. You cannot hurt them by using them, but horses can! Yet I regularly subject by best rifles to whatever comes. For me anyway, the joy is not the possession of the thing, but the application of it. If I should ever come into money like that, I intend to acquire more than one such contemporary rifle...already have at least three builders in mind. And they will have to survive the Great White North!!
Yet there are some who will only put them in safes or display cases. I met a fellow several years ago at the Ohio collectors show who had just received an absolutely beautiful Warren Offenberger flintlock longrifle. It was exquisitely carved and engraved. Since it was a .32, I asked him if he was going to squirrel hunt with it. He looked at me like I had just kicked his dog and said, 'There will never be a shot fired from it. I waited 5 years and paid 5 figures for it!' I said that's fine it's your gun, but if it was me, for that kind of money it's going to be used. Personally, if I had an original rifle from a famous maker and it was in shootable condition, I would at least have to see how well it shoots, even if I wind up putting it away. I'm sure I'll get raked over the coals for such a statement by somebody, but hey, if it has lasted for 200+ years of shooting and handling it will stand a few carefully loaded rounds.
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Old Bob I whole hardily agree. I have always had the philosophy that if it cost so much I cant shoot it then I can't afford it. I seldom shoot my original Harpers Ferry 1816 musket but I do shoot it occasionally. And if the excrement's were to hit the rotary air flow device I would pull it out and load it to put food on the table .
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Well, I didn't see his name listed, but if I had 10 Grand I would walk into Mr. Tip Curtis's shop an come out with about 3 or 4 real nice guns, maybe with some money left over. I don't need fancy patch boxes covering up grade 6 curl, give me a super curled rifle or fowler with NO patch box so all that curl is popping out at you.
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I just started collecting and shooting muzzle loaders around five years ago,before that I built and restored my own old cars and I always said I would never own a car that I would never drive,it would really P_ _ _ _ _ Me Off to get beat at car shows by people who hauled their cars around in an enclosed trailer.So when I started collecting Muzzle Loaders I decided to shoot every gun I bought as long as I determined that it was safe enough to shoot. I don't know alot of the contemporary makers talked about on this site but if I we're to have a gun built I think it would be by Warren Offenberger.I've seen a lot of his work and admire it very much and another Gentleman I'd like to mention who done very fine work is Larry Bryner who I bought an antique rifle off of a while back but is not able to build guns anymore because of a accident involving a farm tractor a couple of years ago, regardless if I ever had a custom contemporary gun built it would be shot. They ain't no fun sitting in the gun safe or hanging on the wall to me thats the same as hauling you're car around in a trailer . Where's the fun in that?
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The original post in this thread mentioned kits. I realize Kits should be a separate subject from builders of customs in the 10 K range. But I will cast a vote for Dunlaps Haines kit. I don't consider myself a builder but I was pleased with my Dunlaps Haines kit when completed. They come with the barrel channel and lock inlet as well as shaping done from butt to just ahead of the lock area. I don't know anything about Dunlaps patterns, but for a non-builder I got a very comfortable rifle off the rack with a Dunlaps kit. In the hands of a real builder a top level gun could be made from their kit.
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Judging from the fact their have been over 7800 viewings of this thread I would say all who contributed information are to be commended for an excellent job. I would also propose this thread be made into a sticky as an easy reference tool for people researching current builders and this question comes up a LOT on various sites.
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I'd pick Dennis Priddy, Dick Miller, or Ed Henson of the Grand Valley Cap n Ballers. You can see Dennis and Dick at Friendship building every year at the nationals.
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I noticed the topic was LATE FLINTLOCK period. Bill Shipman and Taylor Sapergia come to mind for fine rifles closely modeled after originals. Ian Pratt for something with more artistic license especially in iron. Eric Kettenberg for an aged Northampton rifle. For something really fancy a Brennan though $10K might not get it done. Some makers who are retired or rarely build really appeal to me. Would love to have a Freddy Harrison rifle with all the little surprises.
I came here to bring up Mr. Sapergia though my favorite rifle of his is a percussion Hawken. His work is really super.
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My pick is Mike Davis, studied under Hershal house. makes a nice woodbury style Rifle.
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We, who are on the consumer side of this question are extremely fortunate. There are so many very well qualified builders available that I find it virtually impossible to pick only one. They all are great at what they do best. To pick one above all the rest is beyond my ability. Ron
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54 Bucks........The term "kit" is kind of a universal term. Did you know that most of the guns built by John Bivins were made
from a "kit". He did all of the pattern work for it so that does make it a little more proper. I was happy to see that you
liked the "Dunlap" Isaac Haines kit since it was the first kit we developed in conjunction with Bob Lepley, the stock carver.
We have also done some stock patterns for other rifles. I have built over 50 rifles from a generic Lancaster pattern that we
developed.......butt shape and a 44" swamped barrel inlet. It requires a lot of gunbuilding to do even one of these, but, when
looking at the finished gun, who knowns how the wood was removed........Don
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This is like asking who is the best guitar player in the world? I guess it depends on your taste in music.
Personally I would like to thank the guys that kept it from becoming an extinct art form. The gun makers, lock makers, barrel makers. etc., etc,. etc.
We all have our own tastes, but without the guys that kept it going, a number of us would not be shooting these wonderful guns.
There are in music, as in gun building, a number of fantastically gifted artists that will never be heard or seen.
'Just Sayin'
Centershot
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If you had 10,000 to spend on having an American Syle longrifle of the late flintlock era, say 1820 or so, who would you pick to build the rifle for you. If from a kit, who's kit, if from scratch would that change your choice of builder? Look forward to your thoughts.
That's a tough question! But, the first few that come to my mind are David Dodds (though Mr. Dodds passed away a couple of years ago, I have a empty place in my collection reserved for one of his amazing Reading School rifles), Alan Martin, Jim Kibler, Mike Brooks, Fred Letho. I think the 10K limit might omit Jud Brennan, Mark Silver, and most probably the House brothers. And I know there are others of who, that as soon as I hit 'post', I will think. To them I apologize ahead of time......Mick C
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MickC
You can add Mark Silver to the list. He will build you nice rifle for less than 10 grand. Now if you get fancy the price goes up. Tim
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I have been lucky over the past few years ,I picked up a Louie Parker rifle at a auction house in my area and recently I picked up a Jud brennan rifle that he built in1977 .I have dreamed of having a House rifle but I dont think that will ever happen but it does not hurt to dream a bit.
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MickC
You can add Mark Silver to the list. He will build you nice rifle for less than 10 grand. Now if you get fancy the price goes up. Tim
I recently saw some pictures of a fowler he built. You are right, he does VERY nice work. Not only is the architecture of his guns very nice, his carving and engraving is truly first class.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msilverartisan.com%2Fgallerypages%2FFowler%2Fimages%2FFowler-Action_jpg.jpg&hash=b4ac272afe87fd8c45c763b6f010df6daefa2b6c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msilverartisan.com%2Fgallerypages%2FFowler%2Fimages%2FFowler-Stock_jpg.jpg&hash=a46bae893122ea8a83a1982cdb73ff275f03a11a)
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Bottom line is, ITS HIS gun. He bought and he'll do what he wants with it. Look on Gunbroker or Auction Arms web sites and look under Second or Third Generation Colt percussion revolvers, 99% of them are still in their original boxes, never been cocked, never been fired and barely been out of their boxes. People bought them to collect and that's it.
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This has been a great thread. I fell in love with these rifles at the same time that the thread was started. Being new to custom build rifles, it gave me a starting point for researching the works of various builders. I have since commissioned builds from a number of the highly regarded individuals mentioned in the above posts. I did find that the best work from many requires multiples of the 10K$ figure. Even at that it can be difficult to commission work from some.
Wolfgang
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This thread was an interesting read. Of course, a big percentage of you could probably build your own $10,000 gun. That's kind of what I like about this forum, I've gotten free advice from people whose guns I could probably never hope to own. I think if I had $10,000 to spend, as a beginner, I would probably enroll in some of the building classes at the upcoming NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and find out for sure if I'm cut out for gun building. If it went well, I might build my own $10,000 gun. If it didn't work out so well, I think I would do what Kopfjaeger said and see if I could get Hershel House to build me a smaller caliber iron mounted squirrel rifle and let him take it from there.
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My favorites are the ones who truly enjoy what they do. Those that take the time an willing to teach an show other builders the art of keeping this alive. To name a few ,Richard King,Mike Miller,Greg Miller, Mr Preddy. They all make excellent rifles. But of course the House brothers,Ian Pratt. Ed Wenger Allen Martin and so many others. All of these I got to handle their guns over time. So who ever you pick you can't go wrong.
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I'd go with an Allen Martin
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I like the Soddy-Daisy rifles so I would have to go with Jack DuPrey, I guess for 10K I could own several.
mikeo
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I'm with you minor. He makes a fine rifle.imho
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If you had 10,000 to spend on having an American Syle longrifle of the late flintlock era, say 1820 or so, who would you pick to build the rifle for you. If from a kit, who's kit, if from scratch would that change your choice of builder? Look forward to your thoughts.
Don't forget Jim Chambers. Although he is noted for his locks, he is a truly amazing rifle maker. He studied under and worked with John Bivens and his work shows it too.....,just my 2 cents, Mick
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Don't forget Jim Chambers. Although he is noted for his locks, he is a truly amazing rifle maker. He studied under and worked with John Bivens and his work shows it too.....,just my 2 cents, Mick
Haven't been on here for quite a while, this suggestion surprised me. I love Chamgber's locks so I think I may contact him and see if he is still building full rifles.
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Believe it or not, yes, I am still building rifles and hopefully will be until I die. As a matter of fact, I have been assembling one of the Edward Marshall kits that someone returned for a refund after he discovered he discovered he was in over his head. I had planned on bringing it to the Lewisburg show as an "assembled in the white" gun for sale. But, just yesterday someone called and wanted me to completely finish it for him with some carving. I still have the fancy Lancaster rifle I did as a winter project a couple of years ago. It is still for sale.
Jim
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Mr. Chambers, I would very much like to see that Edward Marshall rifle when you are done. Are there any areas that you slim down or is the kit /stock pretty much as per the original ? I have had my Edward Marshall [ .62 cal built from one of your kits ] for a number of years now, and it is my bear and moose gun. It is spectacular :)
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I'd like to see it too! ;)
But I am not trying to rush you with the project.
Quality takes time.
Martin
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If I can cheat a tad on the thread I would do an early Lancaster , nice but not too fancy in .52 cal and would have Mr. Chambers build it .
Eddie
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There are lots of guys here that do amazing work. But even with a $10,000 budget I would not buy a gun from any of them. I would spend the money on gun parts instead and build myself. Not likely that I will ever buy another muzzleloader. I enjoy building a nice gun a lot more than just having one.
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Alright I didn't read every post so I don't know if he got a mention but, Ron Luckenbill. He has made some very nice bench reproductions of historic guns he has had access to and the gentleman is good enough to share his knowledge with us mere mortals. Made the "Revenant" rifles for DiCaprio.
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Eric Kettenburg.
Robby
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There is just a lot of very talented people out there. That can an will build an extraordinary firearm. The 10000 dollar figure is fine. But there are a number of builder's on hear that do exemplary work an charge a third of that price. There work is up there with the best of them..! JMHO...Oldtravler
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If I had 10 grand for a rifle , I`d buy a Kibler kit with plain wood. I`d send it to Mike Brooks to get it put in the white and have him beat the $#*! out of it , Then I`d send it down to my buddy Jack Garner to get finish put on it. I`d take the rest of the money and buy a used bread truck off Craigslist and a gallon of "shine" from Hickman county . I`d park the bread truck down by the river and establish a summer home, this would be my base of operations. When the fishermen would come down I`d show them my rifle and say " look at what I built" when the pretty girls came down I`d ask them " wanna go on a boat wide" .
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If I had 10 grand for a rifle , I`d buy a Kibler kit with plain wood. I`d send it to Mike Brooks to get it put in the white and have him beat the $#*! out of it , Then I`d send it down to my buddy Jack Garner to get finish put on it. I`d take the rest of the money and buy a used bread truck off Craigslist and a gallon of "shine" from Hickman county . I`d park the bread truck down by the river and establish a summer home, this would be my base of operations. When the fishermen would come down I`d show them my rifle and say " look at what I built" when the pretty girls came down I`d ask them " wanna go on a boat wide" .
Sounds like a plan. Can I park my bread truck next to yours? I've always hoped to live in a bread truck down by the river..... ;)
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You better believe you can Mike!! If I`ve got enough left out of that ten grand , I`ll get us some of those little rooftop solar panels and, we`ll have all the luxuries of home. We can fish and explore and do all the stuff Tom and Huck did. Heck , if you want to we`ll build a raft and float down to New Orleans , stopping all along the way creating mischief and, bedlam . If interested shoot me a PM . Nate
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Mr. Chambers, I would very much like to see that Edward Marshall rifle when you are done. Are there any areas that you slim down or is the kit /stock pretty much as per the original ? I have had my Edward Marshall [ .62 cal built from one of your kits ] for a number of years now, and it is my bear and moose gun. It is spectacular :)
Bob, this post is for you...
Click pics for larger images.
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I found the variety of builders and answers provided to be tremendously interesting and educational. To be honest I had expected a lot more commonality and consistency in the answers. There were over 28 separate names provide. The builders with the most recommendations or mentions were Allan Martin at 5, Ian Pratt at 5 and Jim Kibbler at 3.
Kermit made the comment that he thinks there may be more talented Flintlock builders alive today than when they were originally built and after seeing all these recommendations I think I agree with him.
Since very few people have $10,000 to spend on a gun I am going to post the same topic with $2,500 as the target price. I am sure this will reduce the field considerably.
Did you leave out a zero?
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Just a thought but the amount you pay. Does not enhance the quality of the workmanship.
Have seen quite a few new craftsman that are building high end firearms. But don't have the reputation of the better known builders.
My comments are not to pick at anyone. Just that I admire there quality of craftsmanship. JMHO. Oldtravler
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;D ;D ;D... Everybody has a particular style of gun that they like, so they tend to admire builders who create that style gun....all mentioned are top notch.....That being said,... I happen to have a deep appreciation for upper East Tennessee style LongRifles ..... In my opinion, JIM PARKER in Alabama builds a recreation of a Charles Bean rifle that even Old Charlie would be proud of..... !!!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbYkUAF%2F1504_NS_0003_rl.jpg&hash=91595101e93c69cd4c65fa1efd243add818274a9) (http://ibb.co/j80J4a)
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;D ;D ;D... Everybody has a particular style of gun that they like, so they tend to admire builders who create that style gun....all mentioned are top notch.....That being said,... I happen to have a deep appreciation for upper East Tennessee style LongRifles ..... In my opinion, JIM PARKER in Alabama builds a recreation of a Charles Bean rifle that even Old Charlie would be proud of..... !!!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbYkUAF%2F1504_NS_0003_rl.jpg&hash=91595101e93c69cd4c65fa1efd243add818274a9) (http://ibb.co/j80J4a)
Yep, Jim does a nice job with those!
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OK, if I were to order a contemporary longrifle, I'd have Chris Laubach build it. Totally handmade.
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After returning from the CLA show an really studying every gun style/school/ builder's. It's got to be a North Carolina or a Soddy for me.
Their not fancy, just great lines an very practical. The builder Jack Duprey yep we're friends but none the less. They just appeal to me. The way he builds them an the finish he puts on them. IMHO Oldtravler
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This is such a tough topic, as someone's self-image is going to get hurt if they are left out. I saw a self-described "unknown" in the Main Hall of the CLA show near the front door name Gus. I did not catch his last name, but he made some fine rifles. I was partial to a Beck's that he had in his four rifle display. There are some talented people out there! God Bless, and best wishes, Marc
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8) 8)... Agree, Mike... Jack builds fine recreation of Soddy, and any Tennessee rifle for that matter ....hopefully one day I shall own one too .... Jerry Eitner is also a builder whose work I admire .... Also, kinda afraid to say this, because his price might go up if he becomes "famous".. .is a young man I met at the show ...Cody Yoho ....his "Woodbury" school rifle equals any the "old masters" make .... !!!
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Marcruger, Thank you for the kind words! I had many people interested in that Beck.I bought a table
to have a place to sit, talk and support the CLA. It was a great time! My name is Gus DellaGhelfa
Known here as gusd :D
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Cades your correct. That young fella made one dandy of a rifle. Oldtravler
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Hi Gus,
"Marcruger, Thank you for the kind words! I had many people interested in that Beck.I bought a table
to have a place to sit, talk and support the CLA. It was a great time! My name is Gus DellaGhelfa
Known here as gusd :D"
I enjoyed meeting you, and thank you for posting so I know where you are. I left the show and drove home thinking about that fine work you did on the Beck.
A favor, could you share some photos of that rifle in a post and tell us some about it?
Best wishes, and God Bless, Marc
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Marcruger, I take terrible photos , will try at some point to get pics.
gusd
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Anybody see Marvin Kempers latest builds at the CLA show?? FABULOUS!! His John Small recreations are spot on!! He's also a courteous humble gentleman!
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Marvin is an excellent builder. Yes he is a very humble individual. Who will answer any question you have.
Wished I had that man's talent... Oldtravler
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I found the variety of builders and answers provided to be tremendously interesting and educational. To be honest I had expected a lot more commonality and consistency in the answers. There were over 28 separate names provide. The builders with the most recommendations or mentions were Allan Martin at 5, Ian Pratt at 5 and Jim Kibbler at 3.
Kermit made the comment that he thinks there may be more talented Flintlock builders alive today than when they were originally built and after seeing all these recommendations I think I agree with him.
Since very few people have $10,000 to spend on a gun I am going to post the same topic with $2,500 as the target price. I am sure this will reduce the field considerably.
Did you leave out a zero?
Nope, figured by reducing the price to only $2500 there would be a lot less people who build nice guns in that low a price range. Turned out I was right, there were far fewer recommended builders.
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Nope I thank your wrong. Because a lot of the builders that have been named would probably build a rifle or Fowler in that range. Just with less adornments.
Like I said earlier. The price you pay doesn't guaranty quality of build.
But the one's that were named put pride in their work. That's what your paying for...imho
That's why they are in demand
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Im from Michigan Joe Valentine builds a nice gun.
Wallace Gusler tops my list.
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http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=47084.0 (ftp://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=47084.0)
(https://image.ibb.co/c9LpQ6/004.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/hBZ5yR/002.jpg)
This fellow didn't show up in the recommended list but based on these pictures of his work, would definitely say he should be in the running.
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Fascinating how long this thread has been going on - lots of contemporary long rifle builders!
For me, I really like the embellished rifle that Dean2 recently posted. It has a style all it's own - with the silver taking place instead of carving. For me, the design "flows".
But, naming names for the $10K rifle, maybe Don Getz, Kimbler, or perhaps DaveC2 - believe his last name is Curriccio, but I'm not good with Italian.
All three of these pay great attention to detail, both with the architecture of the piece, and with the execution of the plan. Finishes are top-notch work, and I would love to have a rifle built by any of the three.
Craig
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Anyone who can build a decent shooting plus decent looking flintlock has my admiration. I consider it akin to alchemy, myself. Got to admit we have a few great ones on this forum.
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Hi Craig,
The rifle Dean2 shows was built by Hugh Toenjes who is a member on this forum. I believe Muzzleblasts has or will shortly be featuring that gun in an article.
dave
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While I agree with Dan(1st or second page) to some extent, I would agree wholeheartedly with Rick Pierce. I would likely choose Bill Shipman or my Bro to build me that $10,000.00 rifle.
I want carving, incised or raised, whichever is proper to the rifle and period chosen not just elaborate inlays, pre 1815 would be just perfect.
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Hmmmm
Yes, this was edited by a moderator.
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Let’s get back on topic. People reply on whose work they admire. This is not about whose work anyone doesn’t like or understand. Not about advertising ones own work either. Clean it up or get a vacation.
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Judson Brennan
http://judsonbrennan.blogspot.com/
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Brad Emig of Cabin Creek Muzzleloading!
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Brad Emig of Cabin Creek Muzzleloading!
I check out some of his work on his website. You are right that he does some real nice pieces and his prices are pretty reasonable too.
http://cabincreek.net/revspec/current/
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Josh Wrightsman is coming on strong.
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If I had 10 grand for a rifle , I`d buy a Kibler kit with plain wood. I`d send it to Mike Brooks to get it put in the white and have him beat the $#*! out of it , Then I`d send it down to my buddy Jack Garner to get finish put on it. I`d take the rest of the money and buy a used bread truck off Craigslist and a gallon of "shine" from Hickman county . I`d park the bread truck down by the river and establish a summer home, this would be my base of operations. When the fishermen would come down I`d show them my rifle and say " look at what I built" when the pretty girls came down I`d ask them " wanna go on a boat wide" .
Sounds like a plan. Can I park my bread truck next to yours? I've always hoped to live in a bread truck down by the river..... ;)
A BREAD truck!? No way.Around here where the mighty Ohio flows past this town there
are high class and large boxes refrigerators and stoves came packed in and furnished
with whatever can be ripped off from Goodwill or out of unlocked cars.The best of these
or the upper class live under a 4 lane bridge on the WV side.
Bob Roller
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Greetings All,
In the shooting sports world I'm coming back around to muzzleloading and am on Tim William's list for my first-ever, built-from-a-plank flintlock. Mr. Williams certainly seems to have the hand & eye for this line of work and he has been very gracious and professional in all of my interactions with him.
https://www.williamsflintlocks.com/
Kevin
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I have my 'expensive' rifle already. Will never likely afford another. My Bro is my favourite maker.
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image uploader (https://imgbb.com/)
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I’m a big fan and good friend of Jack DuPrey. I’m actually on my way out to Michigan this weekend to get another rifle from him along with my 1st smoothbore. Jerry Eitnier also makes a fine rifle, his was the most reliable flintlock I ever had the pleasure of owning. That gun went off 99 out of 100!
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I love Jerry Eitnier's work! I haven't seen a lot of it and it's sure been a while, but what I saw and handled was just "right" for the style in which he's working. Great stuff.
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The only greats I know are on this forum. If I were to ever buy finished rifles, it would be a Brooks English Fowler or Christian Springs, Aschwege Lancaster or Bucks County,Matrin Lehigh or something from Barker, Rase or Stoner Creek. Then I wouldn’t have to ask so many questions and try to mimic flat pictures of their rifles.
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Mike Brooks.
The greatest builder of our time IMHO.
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Josh Wrightsmans work is coming on strong. I love the j.p. beck rifle he made me. I really liked the Fainot rifle he built and was displayed at the Lake Cumberland show back in February. Insanely nice rifle with lots of brass and a very good representation of the original rifle. He represented my j.p. beck really well also, as I held the original he used to inspire him. Josh's work keeps getting better with each build and his mind's eye and hands really work well on the builds. He can look at something and go right to work on duplicating it. Phenomenal work ethic, I don't know when the man rests. He must take the idle hands are work of the devil, because the he surely keeps that devil away with his work ethic.
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Something about the shape of Mike Brooks English guns is very appealing to me. Especially in the wrist area. Like a Porsche. Kibler’s finishes blow me away. Especially when he uses tannin and bone black liberally on a nice piece of maple. Duprey’s Rifles are at the very top of my list. I make a habit of not looking at a Duprey before I go feed the chickens. They’re not for eating.
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Mike Brooks.
The greatest builder of our time IMHO.
I'm sure several people have just dropped over dead..... :P
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I, too, like Brooksie's guns. He puts a of of himself into them. And D. Taylor Spergia makes some fine armaments. Richard "Pundook Bundie" or whatever that mad Englishman terms himself. He makes especially fine pre-flintlock ML's!
The one that I would most like to own one of his guns, though, is Ian Pratt. His work speaks volumes to me, and I thoroughly enjoy looking at them. A bit of perfection in an imperfect world.
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I would hate to have to choose a gunmaker. There are so many fine ones out there today. I would prize a rifle by any of the great folks listed on this thread.
Bob
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Bob I'm with you...! There are so many good builders now day's. It just depends on what still / school you want and find the right gun builder to do the job..
But only I specialise in the clunker dunker Northern Michigan. Barnwood blunder..!!! Oldtravler