AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: acorn20 on December 29, 2008, 07:24:07 PM
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I've been hunting with muzzleloaders since 1973; the first year I had a muzzleloader. Since then, I've accumulated a few more guns and have taken deer with my percussion longrifles in regular deer season; taken deer with my flintlocks in flintlock season and I'm still after a turkey with my muzzleloading shotgun. The point I'd like to make is that I haven't had any guns made that just hang above the mantle; I enjoy shooting them and hunting with each of them.
My most recent acquisition is a David Price swivel breech kit. I recently took it hunting last weekend and after returning to our home base, one of the fellows asked if my swivel breech was legal to hunt deer in PA. I told him it was a flintlock, of single ignition, and that as far as I was knew it was legal. However, I THINK I'M WRONG! I read the game law last night and it states "Only single barrel flintlock ignition long guns .44 caliber or larger with open iron sights propelling a single spherical lead ball using a cloth patch are permitted." I think this might be the same requirement from 1976 when muzzleloading season was established in PA.
I know I'm not the only person hunting in Pennsylvania with a swivel breech as I've talked with some fellows up at Dixon's this past summer. I doubt if the Commissioners for the PA Game Commission would even know what a swivel breech is. What I'd like to know is how do the game laws differ between states. What's the requirement for muzzleloading in the state where you live? Please advise and thanks.
Dan
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Side hammer, open sighted muzzleloader - listed for primitive deer season - wayyyyy, up North & late. No primitive season doww here, except for bows first 10 days of Sep.
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single barrel firing single projectile. colorado
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Don't know about in PA, but it's not legal in VT. Only one barrel allowd here. Tom
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New York:" Muzzleloading firearm- is a firearm loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a minimum bore of .44 inch." 2008-09 official guide to laws and regulations, volume 2, issue no.1 October 2008
I don't know the "intention" behind the wording of your or my state regulation, but a fair case could be made, that a swivel breech is legal.
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What's the reasoning behind regulating against double rifles? Anyone know? They were popular in the Eastern States in the 1800's. Even ned Roberts hunted Vermont with one as a boy - a William Reed .44 cal shooting a picket bullet. I think it was Vermont. Memory's a bit fuzzy. Long time sincer I read the book - over 30 years.
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anything goes TN:
We have two rules: "incapable of being loaded from the breech" and ".40 cal minimum."
A regular Buckskin Rogers paradise. ::)
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Wade- would being able to pull the primer breech out and shove a bullet then powder in, then screw back the primer plug count as a breech loader? ie: linline.
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In Minnesota the regulations state muzzleloader, no restrictions on doubles. 40 cal and above for rifles, 45 for smoothbores (Darn interesting distinction), no scopes but are working on it. A statement made by the MN DNR seems to reflect that they do not consider ML's significant in counting the number of deer taken and hence permit both does and bucks in all areas.
DP
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in Ohio load from muzzle single projectile single or double barrel smooth or rifle 40cal longgun no ml hand gun
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Strangely enough, Arizona, which makes a .22 Hornet legal for centerfires for elk and buffalo, and who's commisioners maintain the muzzleloader season is not a primitive season; says single barrel, load from muzzle, single projectile in defining muzzleloader. It could still be a .32 cal muzzleloader for elk if you want. No minimum caliber specified.
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Wade- would being able to pull the primer breech out and shove a bullet then powder in, then screw back the primer plug count as a breech loader? ie: linline.
Depends on the motives of the prosecutor that day. :o Many of our game laws were obviously written by law-school dropouts who found a happy home in the legislature (sorry guys you know it's true) and I doubt they'd stand under serious judicial examination.
As it is, I'll bet you could mount a ramrod under any bolt gun with scope and nobody would look twice at it--unless they heard the shot.
But then most of the time the violations are quite clear and fines are paid and everything goes on as usual.
On a better note-I may poke around the game lobby (yes we have one) and see how a primitive season might fly. Methinks adding it to part or all of the very generous archery seasons and/or making one of the two ML seasons primitive only would be dandy. The early ML is prime pre-rut. ;)
But if they don't, tha's fine too. I know what I'll be toting.
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Ottawa, not to lead Ohio hunters astray. Ohio min. cal. is 38. on pg. 8 in the 2008-2009 Ohio Hunting & Trapping Regulations. I did a double check, because I have carried my 38 at times for years and I thought I better look to see if they changed it.
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On what wade and daryl were saying : Here in tennessee they are wanting to thin down the doe herd so much that unless you are doing something really stupid i dont think they will pay much attention to the gun type. All of the commercial type inlines I have seen are legal. Along the tennessee river the EHD breakout thined down the herd by 40 to 80 percent.
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I appreciate all the feedback concerning other states' flintlock regulations. I might add that PA does have an early muzzleloading season in which inline muzzleloaders can be used and they can be used in the regular deer season. For that matter, any flintlock or percussion rifle can be used in the regular deer season as well. But I've always been proud that Pennsylvania has stuck to their guns in that only flintlocks can be used in the primitive season. I just wish they would make the primitive season the third week in November instead of the three weeks after Christmas.
A couple years back Tony Knight was making a case around the PA legislature in how inhumane hunting with a flintlock and round ball was. I understand he tried like the devil to get inlines included in the primitive season. I'm glad no one listened.
Dan
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It is amazing how the inline peddlers seem to forget how well the PRB worked for deer before someone modifed a modern centerfire to load from the front for some morons who could not figure out how to operate a simple TC caplock and get close enough to a deer to shoot it.
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I'd take a primitive only season, even if it was only two weeks, and after Christmas
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...
A couple years back Tony Knight was making a case around the PA legislature in how inhumane hunting with a flintlock and round ball was. I understand he tried like the devil to get inlines included in the primitive season. I'm glad no one listened.
Dan
Hmmm, wonder what's in it for him? ::) ::) ::)
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We tried to get an earlier season in Minnesota. ML's sold like hotcakes before the legislators settled on late Nov early Dec. Then were sold off about as fast. That time frame in Minnesota is kind of tricky and happens after the modern hunters get the deer pretty spooky and thinned out. Weather can also play hob. I tried it for three seasons. The first time I was wading above my knees in snow. The second time I got a deer and it was good weather. this year I tried it because you could buy a license if you did not fill your regular firearms tag. Bad weather again and darn cold. I do not know for sure, but I would guess that about half of the deer taken by traditional ML's are taken during the regular rifle season. Deer hunting gets to be something of a family affair so they hunt with family during that time and the weathers better. In many situations the ML is not all that much of a handicap. As to Mr. Knight's whining concerning his rifles being primitive, you get amused reading the ads on how you hunt without the fuss and all the advantages and then how they cry when a DNR takes their ads seriously. Their latest tactic seems to be knocking the effectiveness of the traditional rifles, which is what "primitive" is all about. Primitive is a idiotic term anyway. A longbow is primitive, a ML is historical. We hunt with historical arms, not primitive ones. We are handicapped by range and firepower yes, but primitive they are not. I really think we missed the boat on legislation when we did not define ML's better.
DP
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It was my understanding that a few years ago PA. changed it to "Flintlock muzzleloader season" for just such a reason.But in Pa. if you posess a Ml stamp you can use a crossbow in that season?????? ??? ???
IMO anything with wheels or plastic is not primitive.
Quoting the Pa game rules "flintlock ignition,single barrel long guns manufactuerd prior to 1800,or a similiar reproduction of an original ML single barrel long gun......"
By my logic ,all these store bought , plastic,T/C , Traditions& all the other junk sold
is not legal.But what do I know >:(
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Illinois:
Single or double barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .45 cal. shooting a single projectile through a barrel of at least 16 inches in length.
The minimum size of the projectile shall be .44 cal.
A muzzleloading firearm is defined as a firearm that is incapable of being loaded from the breech.
Percussion caps, (shotgun primers are legal percussion caps), wheelock, matchlock or flint type ignitions only may be used except the CVA electronic ignition shall be legal to use.
NOTE, I read some where that a smoothbore is also legal but the rules do not state that, I will have to confirm that as I have been useing a smoothy for several years....Ed
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There's a bloke over on nitroexpress.com, which has a muzzleloading section, who makes inlines from 98 Mausers. It's just like any other in-line with a bolt, except the bolt is larger and longer. He thinks they are beautiful and got a mite upset when I called them an "abomination".
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In Wisconsin muzzleloaders must be .45 cal if smoothbore, .40 cal. or larger if rifled and must be a singleball or slug to be legal for deer hunting. ( during our ten day hunt). Must have a solid thread breech plug and only able to be loaded from the muzzle, may not have a telescopic sights (1 power or less are legal). Inlines are legal to use during our 10 day muzzleloader hunt. This is all for our 10 day muzzleloading hunt. Mark
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Daryl, I was called a snob when a gentleman on another site posted a picture of a pistol gripped "Hawken" with a rubber recoil pad and I commented that it was really not a Hawken. That same person later commented on how tickled GGG Grandfater would have been to have had a gun of the TC Hawkens quality. One really wishes one could say what was on ones mind at times.
Am I correct that most states open their ML seasons after the regular deer season?
DP
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DP- some people, such as the GGGfather one, come up with their opinions honestly - afterall, TC themselves advertised that 'Ol Sam would have been proud to have a TC hawken. That Add - was placed on the box itself. No wonder people are led astray - I was- for a very short period of time.
An old guy near the town in which I was a Policeman became my best friend and he and Irene were almost like a Mother and Father to me. Lester H. Hawkes was his name, a machinist from Kalispel Mt, friend of Les Bauska and employee at one time of John Buhmiller, now gone to his reward showed me pictures of him back in Tennessee in the 30's, with a long squirrel rifle he'd made. He also showed me some pictures he'd 'made' of 'real' Hawkens he'd seen around the US. Les also showed me a bundle of Bauska Barrels, explaining the difference between them and the TC with their cut rifling. Of course, this led me to redesign the stock of my rifle as best I could, and to mount a Bauska barrel on it. I then had a rifle I was proud to own, but it was still not a Hawken. In a few years, I'd made my own rifle, while in the meantime, Taylor was transferred back onto the mainland from the northern island and was building them from parts he was buying State's Side.
This sport and hobby is a learning experience. We never stop learning. Some latitude must be given - advertising today, and yesterday, is a powerful tool of the manufacturer and jobber. Over time, people learn, some more quickly than others, depending on their acquaintances.
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DP,
When other states have their muzzleloading season was one of the questions I was hoping to have answered when I started this thread. Pennsylvania's primitive season has always been flintlock only and held after Christmas since its inception. I didn't know if too many other states had a "primitive" season for flintlocks and bows jointly or when they were held.
Most of the deer we see during our primitive season are running full tilt, about a foot off the ground with the after-burners on after being pushed for the two weeks of regular deer season. I absolutely love it though and live for this season. As I've noted, it's tough to still hunt unless there's snow on the ground and then the fun begins. Their calling for snow tomorrow and I can't wait. I just wish they'd clarify the regulations to make swivel breeches legal. I still intend to hunt with mine; you see...Pennsylvania's a pretty big state!
Dan
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Dan - when we have our 'primitive's season, there is always snow on the ground, but it might be -35 or 40, you just never know.
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Got about 14" of new snow yesterday, don't know if it extended far enough south into Pa.. Good luck hunting, with either barrel. Went out into the woods today, looks like the deer were good at ducking this year, fresh tracks all over. Oh Lordy, to have a late primitive (flint & perc. only), what a day!!
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Daryl,
I'd love to have your snow but that -35 or -40 is just too wicked on the fingers! I hunt with fingerless gloves ever since the first year I started hunting with muzzleloaders. My gun went off accidently on the first day of regular deer season way back in 1973! That piece of of glove that you can never seem to get your finger in cost me a 6-point. Perhaps I had the set trigger a bit too touchy. I'll bet I'm not the only one to do that.
Dan
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Dan - I know your 'gloved trigger' pain - but to a lesser extent. 'Premature' discharge :o only cost me a 'miss' on a steel target. We have a 'weak' arm target on the trail and I've found that not setting the trigger when shooting left handed, or with gloves & right handed and not setting the trigger allows me to hit every time.
Once winter sets in and we become accustomed to the cooler weather, wearing a thin cotton 'liner' glove on the 'rifle' hand is usually sufficient as our pictures usually show. We'll sometimes put a pocket warmer in a pocket for when either hand becomes 'chilled'. Being comfortable makes for a great 'trail' or hunt, that's for sure.
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New York's muzzleloader / 2nd bow season is after the regular gun season. Unfortunately inline's are legal. So after 4 to 5 weeks of being pushed by the rifle / shotgun crowd starting with opening day the deer you see are going mach 2. The 1st NY bow season is the month before gun season and works great as there is not much hunting pressure. Now there is a proposal for a muzzleloader season before bow season but again inlines would be legal which means that the inline crowd will start driving the deer opening day. This of course will alter bow season dramatically after they drive them for 2 weeks. In our area everybody drives deer from opening day on. Our best hope is we do not drive our property so we have deer that are not as spooked. I would love early muzzleloader if inlines were not allowed but that is not going to happen.
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Michigan : Muzzleloader ( "primitive" and inlines ) season averages 2 weeks ( depending on the area ) in December after the regular gun season and the deer have had $#@* scared out of them. .40 caliber and larger I believe. Deer Hunting laws in Michigan are very liberal IMHO as the state will do almost anything to get deer numbers down in the agricultural areas of our state., as bovine tuberculosis has been identified and the constant fear of chronic wasting hangs over whats left of the farming economy in our state.
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Tom - currious you should mention the TB - A friend shot a moose in the Stewart Lake (Special Weapons) area, Northern BC, which was diagnosed with TB. I haven't heard of any deer or moose identified with BTB since.
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acorn,
Here in N.H. we have an early season before the regular rifle season. Inlines are allowed , flintlock or caplock, 40 cal. or larger. Swivel breech rifles are not allowed during the muzzle loading season.
A couple of years ago I put on a display for the N.H. fish and game, and had several wardens at my table looking at my rifles, including my swivel breech flintlock. I mentioned to them that the way the law was written ( single barrel only ) the swivel breech rifle as not legal. All but one agreed that they would not arrest any one hunting with one. But the bottom line is it is illegal.
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in colo its cap or flint, single barrel, projectile and, unfortunately, inlines are acceptable. though sabots are not legal, i see many (all) stores selling sabots and feel DOW does not really check that part. as far as swivel breech or doubles, they are illegal but think they would have a tough time selling that to a judge if the hammer, flint was removed from one barrel. although that removes the advantage of two barrels. i also feel it should be legal to have one barrel loaded with shot or be a small caliber for small game, birds. but they never asked my opinion, anyway. guess they know better because i do have an opinion. ;D
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A strange PA law......PA has a two week flintlock season after Christmas. It is .44 cal. minimum or .50 minimum if a pistol. Squirrels, grouse and rabbits are also in the same time. I cannot use my .32 flintlock for squirrels during this period, yet I can take my .22 or .17. If I want to poach a deer, it's going to be with a scoped .22 in the ear, not a .32 flintlock. You can't find any deer anyway, but we do have lots of squirrels.
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A strange PA law......PA has a two week flintlock season after Christmas. It is .44 cal. minimum or .50 minimum if a pistol. Squirrels, grouse and rabbits are also in the same time. I cannot use my .32 flintlock for squirrels during this period, yet I can take my .22 or .17. If I want to poach a deer, it's going to be with a scoped .22 in the ear, not a .32 flintlock. You can't find any deer anyway, but we do have lots of squirrels.
There was a petition earlier this year. If I recall, Wayne Flora ( Pa BP Federation) said back in October, it contained 278 pages of signatures. The game commmision meeting is set for January 25th ...27th. Hopefully we can get that law changed.
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Mississippi is pretty much wide open. Any single shot invented before 1898 with an outside hammer and minimum 38 cal; no restriction on sights. There is a two week season the second week of December, then after gun season ends about the middle of January, primitive comes in again until end of February. One deer a day, five maximum per year. A few years ago when scopes were made legal all the good ol' boys had scoped inlines. Most would use Pyrodex pellets and conicals and load them up until they got the living snot kicked out of them ;D ;D. Now the hot setup seems to be the H&R Handi rifle in 45-70 or 444 Marlin with a 3x9 moonscope of some sort.
I carried my Winchester High Wall one year but have since gone back to my firelocks. I may not haul as many deer home as the other guys, but I can guarantee that I enjoy my guns much more, and while they are still cleaning the critter I am sitting by the fire with a good tall Bourbon and Branch.
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Pete,
I was just reading the Mississippi primitive weapons law the other day and gleaned pretty much the same info.
Any single or double bbl muzzle loader firing a single projectile. 38 cal min. Flint or Percussion. BP or BP substite powder.
OR
Any outside hammer single shot BREECH LOADER, 35 cal min., BP or smokeless.
Not only are inlines (YUK) permitted but can you believe a smokeless BL is a primitive weapon?!?!?................................Lynn