AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Fullstock longrifle on February 03, 2013, 08:22:08 PM
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I picked up this gun over the weekend and I've been trying to figure out exactly what it is. I do know that its early, with what appears to be a curly maple stock (the original finish is very nice). The patchbox lid, although old, apparently is a period replacement as it seems to have been made from a different type of wood.
This is a little out of the scope of what I normally collect, so I was hoping someone here could shed some additional light on it. By the way, I've had it apart and there are no proofs on the barrel or markings on the lock. Everything is original to the gun, with no modern restoration.
All opinions welcomed.
Frank
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.tinypic.com%2F15qrbsm.jpg&hash=bf58187e402284c470a33f88b3c44155dfdc4505)
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Great, great find. IM too inexperienced to tell you what school its from , but i do know it is from a well known school. the shape of the butt really defines it. the stock is beautiful. well cared for it seems to me. I also like the guard. The hole in the guard must be for attaching a sling. I will let the more knowledgeable members take over. Good looking gun!!
topknot
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WOW, what a great looking gun! While I am not sure exactly where it might have been made, I can offer the following:
We know what dozens, if not hundreds, of New England fowlers look like.... and
We know what dozens, if not hundreds, of HVF New York fowlers look like.... and
We know what dozens, if not hundreds, of Penn. fowlers look like....but
What do Southern (Virginia/North Carolina) mid 18th century fowlers look like?
This gun looks to me like what a modern maker would come up with if you asked him to build his interpretation of a mid 18th century southern fowler.
Also, it looks like it might be associated with the KIP fowler in RCA vol. 1 No. 16
I have heard of others (2) that also might be associated with your gun and the KIP gun.
What an interesting gun!
Al
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Wow Frank. What a neat early gun. Is it a rifle? It reminds a bit of the rifle described in Shumways "Longrifles of Note', Vol.2, page 142.
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It's a fowler Wes, with an Octagon to round barrel. You're right, it does look similar to the gun in Longrifles of Note.
Al, I agree with your point about Southern fowlers, you just don't see them out there, what happened to them? Then again, what does a Southern fowler actually look like, could this be one?
Frank
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Interesting piece. What is the barrel length and bore? The side plate and trigger guard give it a martial look and the carving is more in a civilian vein. Could it be a composite gun? There is also a European flavor to the cheek piece.
Dan
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Nice old piece Frank!
I see contenental influences.
As far as the VA Fowling guns and where they went....the earlier you go the more those VA fowling guns will be English made IMHO.
IIRC Mark Elliott once had a circa 1800 Winchester made fowling gun at one time...a PA gun made in VA.
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The barrel is fairly short Dan, it's just over 32 inches long with about a 60 caliber bore, I don't thinks it's been shortened, but it could have been many years ago.
One other thing I noticed. Behind the cheek piece there are some faint initials and what appears to be a date, 175?, I can't make out the last number, but 1750's seems about right for the gun.
Frank
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James,
I disagree on the early VA fowling pieces. All early ones were English made? Wallace Gusslar once showed me an advert from a newspaper from the Virginia Eastern Shore. It was from a gunsmith who stated he was making fine fowling pieces there for sale. The newspaper carried the date 1704 or 1714. What did his fowler look like? Did it look like a NE fowler?, a HVF? a PA fowler? Or, did it have its own unique style? The people of NE, NY and PA all developed their own distinctive stock style. There's no reason to believe the southern makers didn't do the same.
Al
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Frank, that's a beauty and in wonderful condition! Looks like an "american" conversion to percussion, is it a drum conversion? I've always read that is an american trait - would have been here a long time if that is the case.
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Al,
Did the ad state that the pieces were offered for sale or that they were manufacturing them here?
The British mercantile economy seemed to rule the day early on.
Frank,
I just keep admiring that gun. If you happen to get more pictures of the full length profile, trigger guard and buttplate return I know I am not the only one that would be interested in seeing them.
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Here are the last few pictures of the gun I have for now. Thanks for all of your comments so far.
Frank
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.tinypic.com%2F5sg9k.jpg&hash=e59da55a6739c1a5ccf64a5b253156f57e51b8c6)
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Frank that's a wonderful early piece but I think it could have been made anywhere, and trying to ascribe a location is likely to prove futile. Very interesting regardless of where it was made, and very definitely an early one.
The tang carving reminds me a little of the Hudson River piece at the end of RCAII, and some of the leafy carved details remind me of the early heavily carved Bucks/Northampton rifle that Bruce M. found years ago and sold to the guy in Canada. In fact this piece resonates with my "gut" to the tune of that one, despite being different in many ways also. Kind of the same heavily European influence.
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James,
The ad Wallace showed me stated that the gunsmith was manufacturing pistols, rifles, and fowlers. Of course Wallace was most interested in the rifle part of the ad. By the middle of the 18th century Virginia had its own regional style of furniture making so it seems logical to me that they would have developed their own style of firearm. There are a lot of fowlers out there that just do not fit into the NE/HVF/PA style and I just thought that Frank's gun might be one of them. As Eric says, we may never know, but the gun does speak for itself.
I've always been a student of the American fowler and even Tom Grinslade's book is mute on the Southern guns. Call me crazy but I think they are out there but maybe we are not aware of what we are looking for.
Frank told me that the other three guns that relate to the KIP fowler and his gun were made of cherry, birch and ash. Hardly the choice of Europeans for stock wood. Perhaps they were stocked here.
Al
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Very nice Frank! I have been looking at your pictures most of the evening and keep coming back for more study. I cannot get the notion of French influence out of my mind here. The guard and the beaver tail cheek mainly have a strong French Huguenot feel. I really like it!
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Al,
If you find that ad, please share. I am familiar with ads for having fowling guns for sale at comparable prices to what they sold for in London, repair and re-stocking, rifling barrels but not for manufacturing fowling pieces. Would love to have that for my references
For this gun,does everyone see all the parts of Euro origin and French design? If so, this would have been utilizing parts off an older gun or component pieces sold for export to America.
What would be the earliest we could date these parts in cutting edge Paris? Would that date and styling also coincide with component parts imported to America in piece?
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James,
I sure wish I had made a copy of it. I was at Wallace's about 30 years ago when I saw it. Too bad Wallace is not reading this thread. I think he could add to this in a much more positive way.
Al
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James,
I sure wish I had made a copy of it. I was at Wallace's about 30 years ago when I saw it. Too bad Wallace is not reading this thread. I think he could add to this in a much more positive way.
Al
You would not be talking about James Geddy, would you? He advertised in the Virginia Gazette.
Here is the link, scroll down to Precis of The James Geddy Site History
http://research.history.org/DigitalLibrary/View/index.cfm?doc=ResearchReports%5CRR1446.xml
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Al,
If you find that ad, please share. I am familiar with ads for having fowling guns for sale at comparable prices to what they sold for in London, repair and re-stocking, rifling barrels but not for manufacturing fowling pieces. Would love to have that for my references
For this gun,does everyone see all the parts of Euro origin and French design? If so, this would have been utilizing parts off an older gun or component pieces sold for export to America.
What would be the earliest we could date these parts in cutting edge Paris? Would that date and styling also coincide with component parts imported to America in piece?
Euro parts, most likely French if it is indeed a suite of parts. The sliding wooden patchbox has me "buffaloed". I see it as a mid century stocking. The gunsmith was pretty fresh off the boat, I'd say.
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I'm not certain I would conclude the hardware is European. Might be, but it doesn't necessarily have the sophistication commonly encountered on this type of work. With that said, there's the possibility it could be from a relatively low grade Euro gun. To me, the hardware just has the feel of something that might have been made over here.
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I have seen the Geddy ad. The one I remember was for another guy who was located on the Eastern Shore of VA.
Al
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There are a number of labs that can test wood & tell where it came from. Antique dealers do it all time. Just a thought....Tom
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One thing I immediately noticed when I first looked at the gun was how unsophisticated it was. I find it hard to believe that Europian gunsmiths would produce a gun with such crude and unrefined carving and engraving. I've seen this type of workmanship on guns made in Colonial America, but not Europe. But then again, who knows. Any thoughts?
Frank
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The gun is Scandinavian. Probably Swedish. ;)
Swedish guns of the 18th century are pretty rare in the U.S., so it's a nice find!
Guns made in Sweden in the 18th century generally follow one of two basic "patterns". One is the more "French-ish" pattern, which this gun is, the other is more like North German guns. Still, these two styles are pretty distinctly Swedish. The round cheekpiece with the big swirl carved behind it is pretty much universal on Swedish guns, and is the big dead giveaway.
Stocks are usually walnut or elm, or occasionally birch. I will presume this one is birch, maybe walnut, can't tell from the photos.
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Stophel, that's interesting, do you have any pictures you could post of similar Swedish guns to compare it to?
Frank
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Well, let's see....
This one in the NRA museum is one of the most beautiful guns I have ever seen. (Pay no attention to their dating or maker attribution... Actually, you can pay no attention to their dating and attributions for a great many of the guns in their collection... :D )
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-road-to-american-liberty/case-21-the-flintlock/swedish-flintlock-fusil.aspx
It's by Lars Bleckberg (the "L" being pretty clear on the lockplate...) I don't have my Svenska Gevaersmeder book in front of me, so don't know the exact dates, but think something more like 1740's at least.
Here's a cool one:
http://kurage.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/sven-hallgren-och-lars-hallberg-tva-ostgotska-bossor/
Some neat, though not quite comparable, guns here:
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=artist&objectId=21613&viewType=detailView
http://widforss.chiaro.mrfriday.com/auktioner/bilder/13/V04M_056.jpg
http://kurage.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/img_2609.jpg
I really love the Swedish snaplock rifles...
http://kurage.wordpress.com/category/vapen/
Actually pretty hard to come across much on the internet.
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I can definitely see some similarities Stophel, thanks for the lead. I know of four of this type of gun that's turned up in America in the last several years, I wonder if they were brought here for a specific reason, or just brought here by immigrants?
Frank
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I looked at the pictures, but although there are some similarities, the architecture is different and so is the hardware. What do the rest of you think?
Frank
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Swedish immigrant? Did the four you know of come out of the same area?
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One is the gun in Shumway's book on Colonial Guns, Volume 1, known as the KIP gun, not sure about where that one turned up. But one was found in Pennsylvania, one came from Michigan and this one came from Virginia.
Frank
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Seems to me that four guns found in existence having very similar attributes, and early to boot, should constitute a new school. Now that's what Martin Mylins work looked like! :o ::) Sorry Frank, I just couldn't help myself. There has been some interesting conjecture's put fourth so far. I still keep thinking your fowler has Huguenot beginnings, perhaps made here in the colonies. A test of the stock wood would probably get you about as much solid info as you'll be able to find. I just love a good mystery!
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Frank,
Of those four guns, one is curly maple, one is cherry, one is birch and one is ash. To me that argues for American stocking.
Al
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In the next few days I'll see if I can get a piece of wood from the gun and send it off for analysis, I guess that will tell the tale. Thanks for all your comments.
Frank
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For what one more opinion is worth, I have to totally agree with Stophel's thoughts on this gun. I have seen 6 or 7 of these in the last twenty years, three of them were signed on the locks by Swedish makers, one, not signed, had the funky Swedish snap lock. They typically had fowler-ish looking stocks, rounded cheek rests and wooden boxes, though one thing I have noticed is that the inside of the box on nearly all the ones I have seen, rather than being truly rectangular, the side nearest the buttplate ramps down to the bottom, rather than being straight up and down. As for wood types, I have seen ones that looked like walnut, maple and beech. I think they blended a lot of Continental styles and influences in Scandinavia, along with local innovation, just as we did, and ended up with a similar result. Some of them may well have come over during the 18th century, but I suspect that some may be more recent imports. I don't know if wood analysis will help or not on this one. If I remember correctly last time I sent wood to be looked at about 10 years ago, while they could determine if walnut was American or European, at that time they told me maple species in Europe and America looked so much alike under the microscope that they would not hazard to declare it to be one or the other. Perhaps in the years since they have cleared that up?
Alan
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Thanks Alan, I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. Whatever the gun is, or where it is from, I'm enjoying it, it's a neat piece of history.
Frank
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Frank, I can't help you any on the origins, but do think that it's a very cool gun, where ever it came from!
Alan's comment on the box cavity is interesting to me, as I have a Lancaster or maybe Adams County rifle that has a ramp like that.
John
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Though obviously not a flintlock, here's a Swedish rifle with an elm stock. Could this be the "ash" wood that one of these four guns is stocked in?
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/7417980/guns-for-sale-curios-relics/curios-relics-rifles/swedish-mauser-1915-elm-stock-m-96-6.5-x-55
Of course, I've seen more German and English guns stocked in ash than I have seen (purported) American ones, finer Spanish guns are almost universally stocked in curly maple, and cherry looks an awful lot like "fruitwood"... which is what they call wood that they don't know exactly what it is, but it's probably pear.
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Looks Dutch to me, especially in the guard and engraving style.
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While doing more research on the gun, I came across this information about an early Swedish settlement in America, what happened to them by the 18th century, did they stay here, did they go back? Here's a link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sweden
Frank
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This independent "Swedish Nation" continued until 1681 when the Englishman, William Penn received his charter for Pennsylvania and the three lower counties, present-day Delaware.
While Swedes and Finns continued to settle in New Jersey, Delaware and Pennsylvania, they did not begin to arrive in the United States in large numbers until the 19th century. Swedish immigration was highest between 1867 and 1914 due to poor local economic conditions in Sweden and the availability of cheap land in the American west. At the peak of immigration in the 1880s, an average of 37,000 Swedes came to the United States each year. Most of the new settlers bypassed New Sweden and headed west to Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Texas, California and Washington, which remain the states with the largest numbers of Swedish-Americans today/i]
http://www.colonialswedes.org/History/History.html
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When our forefathers came over here to the new world they brought their skills with them. They never changed their hand & started making these guns in the full delveloped form as they did before . I'm sure that some of these guns out there that we have been seeing that we believe are European are truly American guns. Being skilled & have worked in several shops, I haven't changed my hand very little from the way I was taught during my apprenticeship. Frank,I think that your rifle is very interesting & I like it.
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There is an immense desire to call anything American, just as there used to be, and still is, the immense desire to call anything "pre-Revolutionary". Because something doesn't "look like" what an English or German or French gun is supposed to look like, why, it MUST be American! Other European countries had gunsmiths too. They made LOTS of guns. And believe it or not, they're not all the big money, highly decorated guns made for nobility. Many are downright CRUDE. You have to look beyond the guns in the well-known nice picture books and on display at various museums to see what kinds of guns were really made in different countries.
I'm sure rather, that some of the guns that we believe are American are actually European! ;)